Brahmins and Jews

[sangom]

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Dear Shri Sangom,

I meant brahmins are wise. Being wise you are also intelligent and so there is no inconsistency in what I said. When I said the things I said I am just stating the truths. Brahmins indeed devised systems that took a long term view and the interests of everyone. The reservation system now exists because there are people who do not want brahmins to be at the top but what they gloss over is that they are doing away with the wisdom and maturity that brahmins bring in, in the guidance of society. I think it is the society that is a greater loser in this hounding.

Dear Shri Sravna,

It seems you have now omitted any reference to sattvic aspect!

I hold that brahmins are not invariably, all wise people, nor are all brahmins intelligent; wisdom and intelligence are quite different qualities, according to my experience, but in common parlance people use the two words interchangeably. Wise and intelligent people do exist among brahmins just in the same proportion as in any other population group like sudras, Chandalas, mlecchas, arabs, russians or even the aboriginals.

It is rather easy to declare that "Brahmins indeed devised systems that took a long term view and the interests of everyone." If this were true, then no one would have been unhappy and the kind of anti-brahmin wave which swept Tamil Nadu could not have happened. In addition, old timers like myself know, from first hand experience, as to how the lower/lowest castes lived in, and how they were treated by, the society as a whole. I will therefore say that your above statement is absolutely false and even your gods will shrink out of shame to read such untruth. May be you are too young to have known those olden days and that you have been brought up in "sanitized" surroundings which have inculcated in your mind such erroneous notions. If you read books about castes and tribes of India, you may get a fair idea of whatever transpired historically. Any dispassionate analysis of history will reveal that the brahmins had only the welfare of the dwijas (brahmins, kshatriya and vaisya castes)-and that of brahmins'own as the most important - in their view and looked upon the rest of the hindu society, consisting of the umbrella categories known as Shudras and Panchamas, as merely subhuman slave-like creatures. This philosophy is well-reflected in a disguised way by the vAnara category in the Ramayana and one out of the millions/billions of those vAnaras was cleverly elevated to the rank of a demi-god by ascribing - as was mandatory - an Aryan origin (anjanA, an apsaras born as female vAnara plus kEsari, s/o brihaspati being the father; son born as a result of Siva's boon and hence Hanuman becoming an avatar of Siva himself to be a faithful servant of Rama, Vishnu's avatar—thus giving a side-benefit by way of scoring point for vaishnavism!)

Since you concede that "brahmins were at the top", it is rather easy to see, with the wisdom of hindsight, that the brahmins utterly failed in safeguarding their territory and that was the reason why there were onslaughts from very many foreign attackers and almost all of them got to rule some portion (area) or another of this piece of land. It was also due to the wrong and impractical notions inculcated in the minds of the rulers, that the foreigners who came with ulterior motives, in the guise of traders, were given very great welcome but when these traders turned to invasion, we did not have the wherewithal to overcome those. The brahmins who, according to you, were at the top and guiding the society - keeping the interests of everyone - were possibly gloating in their own "greatness" (as you and some others seem to be still doing) without a clue as to the way warfare was changing elsewhere in the world.

I have, therefore, no doubt in my mind that the Indian hindu society under brahmin hegemony was at best a listless conglomerate of very many zamindaris of varying geographical sizes but all beholden to the adulation and worship of the brahmins and their own pantheon and to maintaining the grand status forcibly claimed by these. This "palace of cards" has now fallen down, and that's all there is to reservations; the society as a whole is not going to be any loser, but a small section of the brahmins might be losers.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom,

I just found out Bo Xilai the ex boss of Chonquing and a contender for the highest power in China a couple of years ago, was sentenced to life imprisonment. The equivalent in India would be Digvijay Singh or Sheila Dixit. Such was this guy's influence.

Bo-Xilai

While the workings of the Chinese top rulers have been inscrutable in the past few years, once again, they have shown, that in order to retain power,they will do the needful 'sacrificing of scape goats'.

Kunjuppu,

I read somewhere that BO-Xilai aspired for the top post and that was his real mistake; the rest is all make believe.
In India we have Narendra Modi being harassed as much as is possible for the powers-that-be!

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Sangom,

I just found out Bo Xilai the ex boss of Chonquing and a contender for the highest power in China a couple of years ago, was sentenced to life imprisonment. The equivalent in India would be Digvijay Singh or Sheila Dixit. Such was this guy's influence.

Bo-Xilai

While the workings of the Chinese top rulers have been inscrutable in the past few years, once again, they have shown, that in order to retain power,they will do the needful 'sacrificing of scape goats'.

Those who have not forgotten the cultural revolution unleashed by Mao will easily understand what is going on there in China. Bo is a victim of a modern day cultural revolution.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

My views are based on unbiased thinking. To me wisdom is the most important quality for a leader to possess. By wisdom I mean you not only make something work but keep it working. It has a long term component to it. That is my understanding of the word wisdom. You cannot deny the glorious past of India. If we have degraded to the present state it is because of the new world order which we are still coming to grips with. Remember wise men like brahmins of the past are no longer the main decision makers in our country but very opportunistic and greedy people are. If we are to regain our preeminent status among countries we need to let the wise men again to guide the country.

We were indeed invaded by many foreign powers but that is because there was a transition that was happening in terms of the use of physical might as a mark of superiority of nations and the Indian rulers were not really a part of the transition and hence were invaded by the foreign powers easily. But our society thanks to the wisdom of the brahmins has tremendous resilience built into it that helps us bounce back from difficult situations. The danger is there are others who see this possibility and do not want any, especially spiritual resurgence among Indians. That they think will be a tremendous threat to them.

I am not saying that brahmins are the only people who are wise but anyone who has the sattvic qualities better still with the right mix of rajo qualities are the fit people to be running our country. We may have to adapt our ancient system to suit the new world but that is not a difficult task because of the vision built into the ancient system.

I am sure if India tries to ape the western countries it will always be playing the second fiddle as others want it to but to rise to the forefront we need to resort to our indigenous intelligence.

 

[sarang]

Well said. First step is to understand our traditional knowledge system. Most of us have gone through the school system without any exposure to our greatness. Some silver lining now.

The CBSE has taken the pioneering initiative of introducing an elective course on "Knowledge Traditions and Practices of India". The course, introduced in class XI (to be extended to class XII from next academic year), is an attempt to reintegrate India’s best intellectual, literary, artistic and scientific traditions in the classroom.


The course has ten modules:
1. Astronomy in India
2. Chemistry in India
3. Indian Literature
4. Indian Philosophical systems
5. Indian Traditional Knowledge on Environment Conservation
6. Historical evolution of Medical Tradition and Ayurveda
7. Mathematics in India
8. Metullurgy in India
9. Music in India
10. Theatre and Drama in India

I am sure if India tries to ape the western countries it will always be playing the second fiddle as others want it to but to rise to the forefront we need to resort to our indigenous intelligence.

 

[palindrome]

It is rather easy to declare that "Brahmins indeed devised systems that took a long term view and the interests of everyone." If this were true, then no one would have been unhappy and the kind of anti-brahmin wave which swept Tamil Nadu could not have happened. In addition, old timers like myself know, from first hand experience, as to how the lower/lowest castes lived in, and how they were treated by, the society as a whole. I will therefore say that your above statement is absolutely false and even your gods will shrink out of shame to read such untruth. May be you are too young to have known those olden days and that you have been brought up in "sanitized" surroundings which have inculcated in your mind such erroneous notions. If you read books about castes and tribes of India, you may get a fair idea of whatever transpired historically. Any dispassionate analysis of history will reveal that the brahmins had only the welfare of the dwijas (brahmins, kshatriya and vaisya castes)-and that of brahmins'own as the most important - in their view and looked upon the rest of the hindu society, consisting of the umbrella categories known as Shudras and Panchamas, as merely subhuman slave-like creatures. This philosophy is well-reflected in a disguised way by the vAnara category in the Ramayana and one out of the millions/billions of those vAnaras was cleverly elevated to the rank of a demi-god by ascribing - as was mandatory - an Aryan origin (anjanA, an apsaras born as female vAnara plus kEsari, s/o brihaspati being the father; son born as a result of Siva's boon and hence Hanuman becoming an avatar of Siva himself to be a faithful servant of Rama, Vishnu's avatar—thus giving a side-benefit by way of scoring point for vaishnavism!)

Every word is true. Truth, unfortunately, is bitter. The phenomenon of 'aryanization' is rather ancient, i'd say; right from the time of Vishwamitra himself. But hey, history is for losers. And upanishads (vedas, et al) are for winners. Well, well,

Since you concede that "brahmins were at the top", it is rather easy to see, with the wisdom of hindsight, that the brahmins utterly failed in safeguarding their territory and that was the reason why there were onslaughts from very many foreign attackers and almost all of them got to rule some portion (area) or another of this piece of land. It was also due to the wrong and impractical notions inculcated in the minds of the rulers, that the foreigners who came with ulterior motives, in the guise of traders, were given very great welcome but when these traders turned to invasion, we did not have the wherewithal to overcome those. The brahmins who, according to you, were at the top and guiding the society - keeping the interests of everyone - were possibly gloating in their own "greatness" (as you and some others seem to be still doing) without a clue as to the way warfare was changing elsewhere in the world.

I have, therefore, no doubt in my mind that the Indian hindu society under brahmin hegemony was at best a listless conglomerate of very many zamindaris of varying geographical sizes but all beholden to the adulation and worship of the brahmins and their own pantheon and to maintaining the grand status forcibly claimed by these. This "palace of cards" has now fallen down, and that's all there is to reservations; the society as a whole is not going to be any loser, but a small section of the brahmins might be losers.

Hope these words are read by every youngster who claims to be upper-caste. Instead of seizing the winds of change to benefit everyone, some are stuck in the past singing imagined glories of 'ancient' days, reinforcing caste / casteism, or wedded to varna vyavastha...these expect to keep, reinforce, or bring back their (own) 'old glory'; in short, messing with whatever little progress democracy has achieved since the past few 60 years.

Wrote this note, in appreciation of your post. Sir. Thank you.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

My views are based on unbiased thinking. To me wisdom is the most important quality for a leader to possess. By wisdom I mean you not only make something work but keep it working. It has a long term component to it. That is my understanding of the word wisdom.

Dear Shri Sravna,

The word 'wisdom' has as its many meanings, the following also:

The ability to make a decision based on the combination of knowledge, experience, and intuitive understanding.

I prefer to look at the word 'wisdom' in the above sense. Perhaps this meaning also satisfies your requisites such as, "wisdom is the most important quality for a leader to possess. By wisdom I mean you not only make something work but keep it working. It has a long term component to it. That is my understanding of the word wisdom."

You cannot deny the glorious past of India.

I agree that it is the custom to talk about "the glorious past of India", but, except in the area of literary productions and philosophical viewpoints, I do not think that in "ancient India" there was any 'greatness' attached to the 'Al hind' country. Of course, the usual examples set out in suuport of this claim of greatness, such as the Dacca Muslin, the wootz steel, etc., have all disappeared, the reason being that the workers who knew such techniques were never part of the mainstream of the society (which comprised the dwija castes which kept itself as aloof as possible from the artisans and workers) and there was no scope for wide use of these technological products by the general population. Those who knew the technical details, therefore, tended to pass it on to their descendents. When such families became extinct, those technological secrets also died. The wise brahmins who led and guided the country had neither the intelligence to experiment and rediscover those extinct techniques, nor did their wisdom and far-sightedness tell them that such techniques being very unique and worth possessing, and so worth learning and being recorded for posterity just like the amorous frolics of their god Krishna. So much for the wisdom, far-sightedness and leadership qualities of brahmins who were in the vanguard of the ancient indian society !

But, today, with our democratic set-up with the brahmin leadership completely sidelined, efforts are being made to revive industries like the "Aranmula mirror" of Travancore, though our country is now not led by the wisdom and farsightedness of brahmins.

If we have degraded to the present state it is because of the new world order which we are still coming to grips with. Remember wise men like brahmins of the past are no longer the main decision makers in our country but very opportunistic and greedy people are. If we are to regain our preeminent status among countries we need to let the wise men again to guide the country.

A very brahmin-led regime like that of the Vijayanagara Empire, had to import men from Azerbaijan area to man its cannons because that brahmin-dominated empire did not have the required expertise. And when the enemy stopped the routes through which these men reached south india, the vijayanagar empire collapsed.

Today's situation may be slightly different and may be our government is compelled to tow the western countries' line but I have not found anything different when a brahmin Vajapayee led the government was at the helm. In fact it was that government which very enthusiastically followed western methods for creating a "Bharat Mahaan".

We were indeed invaded by many foreign powers but that is because there was a transition that was happening in terms of the use of physical might as a mark of superiority of nations and the Indian rulers were not really a part of the transition and hence were invaded by the foreign powers easily.

This is a euphemistic way of telling exactly what I also said. But you are following the saying "கவிழ்ந்து விழுந்தாலும் மீசையில் மண் புரளாமல்". Good strategy!

But our society thanks to the wisdom of the brahmins has tremendous resilience built into it that helps us bounce back from difficult situations.

You have not clarified how brahmins' wisdom translates itself to "tremendous" resilience of the whole society. My view, however, is that the lowest rungs of the society suffered near-total extinction in many of these invasions in order that the dwija castes were least affected. To make up for this depletion in the lowest classes, some groups from the vaisya caste were periodically downgraded into shudra category. If this is called "social resilience", it is just pitiable, nothing more.

The danger is there are others who see this possibility and do not want any, especially spiritual resurgence among Indians. That they think will be a tremendous threat to them.

When you say 'spiritual resurgence' you implicitly admit that there has been spiritual decadence. And, if you are truly making your remarks out of "unbiased thinking" it should not be difficult for you to concede that spirituality (or even basic religion) was forbidden for the vast majority who came under Shudra and Panchama categories. Even this took time and this segregation could be ended only after democracy came—and not when the 'wise' brahmins were leading the country.

I am not saying that brahmins are the only people who are wise but anyone who has the sattvic qualities better still with the right mix of rajo qualities are the fit people to be running our country.

Well, well! sattva comes in again along with its younger brother rajas (not rajo, please) as a bodyguard, perhaps!

We may have to adapt our ancient system to suit the new world but that is not a difficult task because of the vision built into the ancient system.

It will be a sure recipe for complete disaster, I feel. Our ancient system will be better preserved in archives, museums, etc. and not mixed with the modern, scientific system. One should not try to mix oil with water!

I am sure if India tries to ape the western countries it will always be playing the second fiddle as others want it to but to rise to the forefront we need to resort to our indigenous intelligence.

I agree with the first part - regarding aping the west - but completely disagree with the second part, if the intention is to resort to the glorious, sattvic, wisdom of brahmins and their ancient lore.

 

[palindrome]

Of course, the usual examples set out in suuport of this claim of greatness, such as the Dacca Muslin, the wootz steel, etc., have all disappeared, the reason being that the workers who knew such techniques were never part of the mainstream of the society (which comprised the dwija castes which kept itself as aloof as possible from the artisans and workers) and there was no scope for wide use of these technological products by the general population. Those who knew the technical details, therefore, tended to pass it on to their descendents. When such families became extinct, those technological secrets also died.

The downgrading of artisans into shudras played a role. As such, artisans, be it from the smithery lot or those doing sculpturing, largely have no connection to the trayee-vedas. But well, discussing the case of manusmriti or any other dharmashastra is not allowed here since it would offend brahmins. Presenting any such material is invariably anti-brahmin and anti-brahmanism.

 

[prasad1]

The downgrading of artisans into shudras played a role. As such, artisans, be it from the smithery lot or those doing sculpturing, largely have no connection to the trayee-vedas. But well, discussing the case of manusmriti or any other dharmashastra is not allowed here since it would offend brahmins. Presenting any such material is invariably anti-brahmin and anti-brahmanism.

Take care Sangom sir. If you get into too many details opposing Sravna's points you will invite Praveen's wrath.

Praveen can take care of defending himself.
But that was a cheap shot by a disgruntled, hateful person, whose sole purpose on this site to incite brahmins. You have not added one post to praise or support Brahmins, and from your history in this site in various avatar you have no intention of ever doing it. Praveen has been patient and accommodating people like you. You on the other hand instead of being grateful to a gracious host constantly test his patience.

What you are implying ,that Praveen is partial to Sravna and hard on you is totally off the mark.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

When you discredit the ancient systems you should try to understand whether they can be better systems. Consider present days methods of how the responsibilities are distributed in the society. Any one can become a minster or a prime minster and anyone can become a doctor , a scientist etc. But is this really a sensible approach? What if a trigger happy megalomaniac who is prone to find solutions by missiles and bombs, lead the country? He is not only dangerous to our nation but to the whole world. What if a person who doesn't have compassion becomes a doctor? You need to think about all these to understand that one's inherent qualities need to be matched with what one does to ensure harmonious working of the society.

The above is one such case where the brahmins had a far-sighted approach. True the brahmin led kingdoms were not making cannons but the powers that subjugates others by cannons cannot sustain their control for long. They are bound to meet with ill-fate sooner or later.

Spirituality indeed is forbidden for some people because some people need to have the basic qualifications first before they embark on the path of spirituality. You cannot for example preach about peace with a terrorist and succeed in making him work towards peace. A certain level of spiritual developments needs to be there for one to evolve further in spirituality. That basic qualification comes in my view over a number of births and cannot be forced prematurely.

The solutions we have now are guided by quick results they give and the quick fixes they offer to the selfish interests of those who are in power and is far less visionary if they are compared with our ancient solutions.

 

[renuka]

Dear Shri Sangom,

When you discredit the ancient systems you should try to understand whether they can be better systems. Consider present days methods of how the responsibilities are distributed in the society. Any one can become a minster or a prime minster and anyone can become a doctor , a scientist etc. But is this really a sensible approach? What if a trigger happy megalomaniac who is prone to find solutions by missiles and bombs, lead the country? He is not only dangerous to our nation but to the whole world. What if a person who doesn't have compassion becomes a doctor? You need to think about all these to understand that one's inherent qualities need to be matched with what one does to ensure harmonious working of the society.

The above is one such case where the brahmins had a far-sighted approach. True the brahmin led kingdoms were not making cannons but the powers that subjugates others by cannons cannot sustain their control for long. They are bound to meet with ill-fate sooner or later.

Spirituality indeed is forbidden for some people because some people need to have the basic qualifications first before they embark on the path of spirituality. You cannot for example preach about peace with a terrorist and succeed in making him work towards peace. A certain level of spiritual developments needs to be there for one to evolve further in spirituality. That basic qualification comes in my view over a number of births and cannot be forced prematurely.

The solutions we have now are guided by quick results they give and the quick fixes they offer to the selfish interests of those who are in power and is far less visionary if they are compared with our ancient solutions.

Dear Sravna,

When I read your posts I always somehow get the feeling that you feel some people are more spiritually evolved than the rest and have a better understanding foresight etc.

I know that you do not attribute these qualities to only Brahmins but to anyone else who possess what you are feeling actually exists.

I really do not get it as how would you really know who is whom in the real sense.

You can only know the true nature of a person in times of adversity and at the time of gain that too it is subject to intrinsic and extrinsic influences.

And it is not that adversity and gain happens 24/7 for us to find out how each one of us would cope with a situation.

Can you just tell me how can we actually asses a human being on his full capability and true nature.

We have to take into account that the human mind is fickle in nature and no one person can remain the same through out his life.

A few days ago some elderly relative was asking me a weird question ..he asked me "have you ever wondered how your life would be in 3 years time..have you thought about it?"

To which I replied "I do not even know tomorrow..so how will I know what will happen in 3 years time..if you know what will happen to me in 3 years time kindly let me know"

So you see Sravna...My question to you is simple.."How do you really know who is who in the spiritual scale?"

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

To me the extent of spirituality one has can be gauged in how closely the mind is nirguna brahman in nature. In other words one who is perfectly balanced. The gunas from tamas to sattva represent an evolution towards the nature of brahman , brahman itself being a perfect mix of the 3 gunas with nothing in excess or nothing in deficiency.

I think you enter spiritual proper with the sattva guna predominant. So if one talks predominantly in terms of force or violence, he is still rajas predominant and has some way to go before he can be considered spiritually mature. So to answer your question if you can judge whether a person has strong affinity towards using force only be it physical or mental you can consider him to be not spiritual.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

To me the extent of spirituality one has can be gauged in how closely the mind is nirguna brahman in nature. In other words one who is perfectly balanced. The gunas from tamas to sattva represent an evolution towards the nature of brahman , brahman itself being a perfect mix of the 3 gunas with nothing in excess or nothing in deficiency.

I think you enter spiritual proper with the sattva guna predominant. So if one talks predominantly in terms of force or violence, he is still rajas predominant and has some way to go before he can be considered spiritually mature. So to answer your question if you can judge whether a person has strong affinity towards using force only be it physical or mental you can consider him to be not spiritual.

Dear Sravna,


You said:

To me the extent of spirituality one has can be gauged in how closely the mind is nirguna brahman in nature.

You seemed to have left Vaishnavas out of this equation with Nirguna Brahman and all.....Vaagmi ji might be upset!LOL

Ok going back to that...Nirguna Brahman is beyond description and beyond perception..so how do we gauge anything with the gold standard in this case Nirguna Brahman which is incomprehensible.

We can only compare with something we know isn't it?

BTW Sravna people can fake their true nature too.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

Nirguna brahman has none of the gunas predominant and hence cannot be attributed any particular guna. That I think is an indispensable feature of a perfect spiritual being.

I think the vishistadvaita philosophy is not inconsistent with advaita and both can definitely be reconciled.

People can fake their nature definitely but People can find out fakes too.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Sravna,


You said:

You seemed to have left Vaishnavas out of this equation with Nirguna Brahman and all.....Vaagmi ji might be upset!LOL

Ok going back to that...Nirguna Brahman is beyond description and beyond perception..so how do we gauge anything with the gold standard in this case Nirguna Brahman which is incomprehensible.

We can only compare with something we know isn't it?

BTW Sravna people can fake their true nature too.

Dear Renukaji,

Refer to the highlighted, underlined words above.I really laughed aloud when I read your post. You remind me of the Kili Josyan (the soothsayer with the parrot) on the platform. You have put me inside a box, labelled it, and occasionally take me out from that box to answer your promptings in the most expected way like the parrot picks up a card. The parrot gets a grain and I get nothing-that is the only difference. LOL.

 

[renuka]

The parrot gets a grain and I get nothing-that is the only difference. LOL.

Dear Vaagmi ji,

You see..the parrot is not a creature of Sattva..so it does any work purely for survival and instincts.

You on the other hand are an evolved soul..so for you its "Karmanyevadhikaraste Ma Phalesu Kadacana" so no grains!LOL

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Vaagmi ji,

You see..the parrot is not a creature of Sattva..so it does any work purely for survival and instincts.

You on the other hand are an evolved soul..so for you its "Karmanyevadhikaraste Ma Phalesu Kadacana" so no grains!LOL

The parrot Vaagmiji finally got a bar(evolved soul) given by Renukaji to pin on his epaulette. LOL.

 

[renuka]

The parrot Vaagmiji finally got a bar(evolved soul) given by Renukaji to pin on his epaulette. LOL.

Sukha Dukhe Sama Krtva..Parrot Ji dont get too excited yaar!

 

[Vaagmi]

Sukha Dukhe Sama Krtva..Parrot Ji dont get too excited yaar!

The parrotji being an evolved soul is not very excited. But he would certainly expect such a "grain" every time he is taken out from the box. Be prepared. LOl.

 

[renuka]

The parrotji being an evolved soul is not very excited. But he would certainly expect such a "grain" every time he is taken out from the box. Be prepared. LOl.

The evolved Parrot ji should not be eating according to this shloka!LOL

suparnav etau sadrsau sakhayau
yadrcchayaitau krta-nidau ca vrkse
ekas tayoh khadati pippalannam
anyo niranno 'pi balena bhuyan


By chance, two birds have made a nest together in the same tree. The two birds are friends and are of a similar nature. One of them, however, is eating the fruits of the tree, whereas the other, who does not eat the fruits, is in a superior position due to His potency.

Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 11 Chapter 11 Verse 6

​

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

When you discredit the ancient systems you should try to understand whether they can be better systems. Consider present days methods of how the responsibilities are distributed in the society. Any one can become a minster or a prime minster and anyone can become a doctor , a scientist etc. But is this really a sensible approach? What if a trigger happy megalomaniac who is prone to find solutions by missiles and bombs, lead the country? He is not only dangerous to our nation but to the whole world.

Dear Sravna,

I feel you are telling half-truths in order to buttress your view point. Do you suggest that when the so-called "ancient systems" were in operation, contingencies such as those you refer to, did not happen? If so, how do you explain away the Hayagreeva Asura who stole the vedas from Brahma and caused the Matsyavatar, onwards through Hiranyaksha, Mahabali, Ravana, Kamsa, Duryodhana and so on? Were they all not bad rulers of the kind of "trigger-happy megalomaniacs? If they were not so, then how can their absolute extermination by god be justified? Were not Rama, Krishna etc., using various high-powered astras which, if successful, could destroy the whole world?

Today, though in theory any Tom, Dick or Harry could aspire to become a President, PM or Minister, powers are not concentrated in the hands of any one among them. So, unless people knowingly elect a madcap or, alternatively, one person suddenly turns mentally unstable, nobody will "trigger" any bomb. The world's experience of the past 60 or more years shows that such cataclysms are unlikely to happen in the present day system.

What if a person who doesn't have compassion becomes a doctor? You need to think about all these to understand that one's inherent qualities need to be matched with what one does to ensure harmonious working of the society.

Sravna,

Can we confidently say that all doctors under the ancient systems were invariably compassionate? I don't think so; there was no known system, way back in those days, to certify a person as competent to act as a doctor or vaidya. It was a hereditory occupation and any or all of the sons of a vaidyan could grow up and start claiming himself/practising as a new vaidyan. I have personally known one or two such vaidyans. But in those days, there was no concept like doctor's liability, consumer rights, compensations etc. Therefore, those self-appointed vaidyans could happily practice whatever they knew (or did not) and any loss was invariably attributed to fate and god's will, etc.

Is not the present system at least marginally better in improving the performance of the doctors, even if not compassion?

The above is one such case where the brahmins had a far-sighted approach.

You have not even outlined what the "far-sighted approach" of the brahmins was, to which you refer. I am therefore at a loss to offer any comments.

True the brahmin led kingdoms were not making cannons but the powers that subjugates others by cannons cannot sustain their control for long. They are bound to meet with ill-fate sooner or later.

But the brahmin-led kingdoms had no qualms in using the cannons. This only goes to prove that these kingdoms utterly lacked the necessary skills to manufacture those military equipments. Human history till very recently has been one continual attempt of man conquering man. There is a little bit of lull only since the end of WW II and this goes to support the view that the present is better than all the past, at least in this regard. In short what the ancient system could not achieve, the modern system which does not accept brahmin leadership, could achieve.

Spirituality indeed is forbidden for some people because some people need to have the basic qualifications first before they embark on the path of spirituality.

This term "spirituality" has been a bugbear in many of your posts. You have explained your notion about it, in your response to another member, that for you 'spirituality' means how close a person has come close to the Nirguna Parabrahman of advaita (NPB). You also claim that people can measure/judge this closeness and so nobody can fake such closeness, etc. My position is that it will be impossible to prove the existence of such a NPB, except citing the statements of Sankara. It will be even more difficult to prove that any normal person can 'measure' the closeness (i.e., the distance between this NPB and another person).

Apart from all these it is really shocking to know that you hold the view that "spirituality" is not for everyone but only for the select group which have the basic qualifications, which you have not spelt out. I am glad in one way, however, and that is that your sentence does hundred, if not a thousand times, more damage to the brahmins' cause than what the BBs have been writing all through these years. If Chandrasekhara Sarasvati of Kanchi were alive, he might have honoured you with a special title like "brahmana sreshTha" or something like that!
At the same time you are forgetting the fact that even a Chandala could teach a lesson or two to Sankara who harboured similar views; you are also conveniently omitting several of the revered figures like Tukaram, Nandanar, etc.

You cannot for example preach about peace with a terrorist and succeed in making him work towards peace. A certain level of spiritual developments needs to be there for one to evolve further in spirituality. That basic qualification comes in my view over a number of births and cannot be forced prematurely.

On what basis, what scriptural authority do you make these statements? Did not Parasurama kill all kshatriyas the world over, 21 times? Was he, then, spiritually underdeveloped? Did not Narasimha tear out the entrails of Hiranyakasipu? Was he (Narasimha) spiritually undeveloped avatar? At least today's terrorists do not eat the entrails, you see, and so there is a fit case that they are a notch above the Narasimha avatar

The solutions we have now are guided by quick results they give and the quick fixes they offer to the selfish interests of those who are in power and is far less visionary if they are compared with our ancient solutions.

Dear Sravna, when you reach my age, quite surely I will have long gone. But then if you happen to change your views about spirituality kindly remember my words, "we can neither define a nebulous concept like spirituality (not the peg type) nor measure it. Anybody or any creature may be more spiritual than ourselves. (By the same token, you may very well be more closer to the NPB but that does not necessarily make all your statements/notions inerrant.)

 

[Nara]

...Nirguna brahman has none of the gunas predominant and hence cannot be attributed any particular guna. That I think is an indispensable feature of a perfect spiritual being.

I think the vishistadvaita philosophy is not inconsistent with advaita and both can definitely be reconciled.....

sravna, I was actually feeling for you on the other thread, about Pandavas and Duryoudhana -- while it was funny that you guys were arguing about fictional characters, but within the fictional narration you were getting overwhelmed by specious arguments -- but then you come with this nugget and I get fully reminded of the reality of your disposition.

The way you describe Nirguna and your claim that VA is not inconsistent with A reveals the lack of understanding of both concepts. Do you notice the "nir" in nirguna, that does not mean "has none of the gunas predominant". Advaitam asserts a complete absence of anything other than pure consciousness even free of any substratum, nothing, no attributes nada, and VA finds this concept pure poison. A long line of VA scholars have been criticizing Advaitam on this very point of Nirguna Brahman for centuries and now you say you can reconcile this concept of Nirguna Brahman and VA. Either you must be the greatest Vedic scholar ever, or ........

thanks ....

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

If my and probably many others apprehensions that the world is not moving in the right direction are falsified as you say, it is exactly what we want. I wish I am wrong and you are right. Btw it was a well written post.

 

[sravna]

sravna, I was actually feeling for you on the other thread, about Pandavas and Duryoudhana -- while it was funny that you guys were arguing about fictional characters, but within the fictional narration you were getting overwhelmed by specious arguments -- but then you come with this nugget and I get fully reminded of the reality of your disposition.

The way you describe Nirguna and your claim that VA is not inconsistent with A reveals the lack of understanding of both concepts. Do you notice the "nir" in nirguna, that does not mean "has none of the gunas predominant". Advaitam asserts a complete absence of anything other than pure consciousness even free of any substratum, nothing, no attributes nada, and VA finds this concept pure poison. A long line of VA scholars have been criticizing Advaitam on this very point of Nirguna Brahman for centuries and now you say you can reconcile this concept of Nirguna Brahman and VA. Either you must be the greatest Vedic scholar ever, or ........

thanks ....

Dear Shri Nara,

I will reply to your post soon

 

[SANDHYAV]

Dear Sravna,

This term "spirituality" has been a bugbear in many of your posts. You have explained your notion about it, in your response to another member, that for you 'spirituality' means how close a person has come close to the Nirguna Parabrahman of advaita (NPB). You also claim that people can measure/judge this closeness and so nobody can fake such closeness, etc. My position is that it will be impossible to prove the existence of such a NPB, except citing the statements of Sankara. It will be even more difficult to prove that any normal person can 'measure' the closeness (i.e., the distance between this NPB and another person).

Apart from all these it is really shocking to know that you hold the view that "spirituality" is not for everyone but only for the select group which have the basic qualifications, which you have not spelt out.

But then if you happen to change your views about spirituality kindly remember my words, "we can neither define a nebulous concept like spirituality (not the peg type) nor measure it. Anybody or any creature may be more spiritual than ourselves. (By the same token, you may very well be more closer to the NPB but that does not necessarily make all your statements/notions inerrant.)

dear Prof Sangom , if i leave all the technical terms u have used and say spirituality is a type of emotion - that oneness of inclusive consciouness what would u say?

also i dont agree that AGE has got anything to do with ones perception/experience of spiriturality.