Brahmin (NB?) girls!!

[valli]

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Dear All

There have been many a threads regarding Brahmins - reservation for them, who is a brahmin, brahmin girls attracted to NB and marrying them etc etc!

Now, I have this honest doubt (yes, once again!)!

Brahmin girls who marry NB are considered NB effective immediately, right? Yes. According to our .... whatever!

Does anyone here know that the brahmin girl's certificates and her wedding certificate always says that she is a brahmin???

It is only her children who get recognised as Nonbrahmins and not her according to our Indian Law!

There have been many a brahmins here who say that even if they discard their brahminism, by the law they are still considered brahmins! Right guys! Very right! So, will you consider the girl who is still considered as brahmin according to law as a brahmin???? NO

Hipocrisy should I say?

Kind regards

P.S. I maynot be answering/replying frequently.

 

[amala]

Wow Vallikka on a roll . But you know children take the father's caste anyway so if the dad was Brahmin and the mother NB, the children are still considered Brahmin.

 

[valli]

Dear Amala

I really apprecite your reply!!

But my post/question is not about Nb girls marrying brahmin guys and the children getting brahmins status!!

It is about brahmins girls!!!

Anyway Amala, here I tell you a true incident about an SC girl (my close friend, should I rather say little sister?) marrying a brahmin guy! She has a girl out of the marriage, living with her inlaws and is very very heartbroken about the way they treat her! She cried and cried on my shoulders and I feel really sorry for her!!

Whereas I know many a true incidents about brahmin girls marrying NB guys and are living a very happy married life! I also want to tell now that these girls have not married for

1. beauty - the guy is darker than the girl
2. money - the guy is no way richer than the girl

So, let everyone keep guessing what attracts a brahmin girl to a NB guy AND live a HAPPY married life!!

 

[sangom]

Dear All

There have been many a threads regarding Brahmins - reservation for them, who is a brahmin, brahmin girls attracted to NB and marrying them etc etc!

Now, I have this honest doubt (yes, once again!)!

Brahmin girls who marry NB are considered NB effective immediately, right? Yes. According to our .... whatever!

Does anyone here know that the brahmin girl's certificates and her wedding certificate always says that she is a brahmin???

It is only her children who get recognised as Nonbrahmins and not her according to our Indian Law!

There have been many a brahmins here who say that even if they discard their brahminism, by the law they are still considered brahmins! Right guys! Very right! So, will you consider the girl who is still considered as brahmin according to law as a brahmin???? NO

Hipocrisy should I say?

Kind regards

P.S. I maynot be answering/replying frequently.

Smt./Sow Valli,

B girls marrying NB boys are today considered as B and very much so because they are associated even in the Sumangali Praarthanai (in their parents' house, of course) as one of the invitees and given place of honour. Of course I have seen this only in one or two cases in which the NB boys are quite well-settled and well-off and so the B-NB marriage can be called "successful". I know one case of an equally successful NB girl marrying a B boy but the boy's mother still ensures that "thevasams" are performed without allowing that NB girl to participate in it; she even goes with her husband to some other location and performs the Sraaddham there. So, it all depends on the in-built psychology of some of the TBs about their superiority due to brahmin birth.

This feeling of superiority is something which has gone so deep into some peoples' minds that it is very difficult to eradicate it.

An SC girl like your friend, can, in today's atmosphere, very easily bring up her children as Bs, perform poonal ceremony for the sons and also seek for B brides and grooms for them. B grooms for her daughters will also be available without great effort, but since TB girls are highly choosy and very particular about many, many things, she may find it comparatively difficult to get B brides for her son.

If I were in the position of your friend's husband I will rather ensure that the children are brought up as NBs and not as Bs and even in the relevant records because it is more beneficial for the children's future.

 

[ramani.l]

PRANAMS VALLI THIS IS RAMANI
Actually only the mother says to the child who is the father. This is may be ( i guess ) to grater extent girls are more attached to thier wards and as well have more social responsiblities. Hence by attaching importance to the fatherwood, concerned person is hooked to his responsiblities towards that child and the mother.Hence the so called identy , the caste is taken from father side.May be because of thier education, awarness of thier upliftment htrough education and more socialisation in the society,girls irrespective of the sector they belongs to, take individual decision for themselves whereever possible in thier life.

 

[kunjuppu]

wow vallikka on a roll . .

you bet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Amala

I really apprecite your reply!!

But my post/question is not about Nb girls marrying brahmin guys and the children getting brahmins status!!

It is about brahmins girls!!!

Anyway Amala, here I tell you a true incident about an SC girl (my close friend, should I rather say little sister?) marrying a brahmin guy! She has a girl out of the marriage, living with her inlaws and is very very heartbroken about the way they treat her! She cried and cried on my shoulders and I feel really sorry for her!!

Whereas I know many a true incidents about brahmin girls marrying NB guys and are living a very happy married life! I also want to tell now that these girls have not married for

1. beauty - the guy is darker than the girl
2. money - the guy is no way richer than the girl

So, let everyone keep guessing what attracts a brahmin girl to a NB guy AND live a HAPPY married life!!

Dear Valli,

There are opposite situations also, of NB girls happily married into TB families. And of TB girls very unhappy in NB families.

Irrespective of B or NB, i feel marriage is a bit of a "game of chance". There are "astrologically-perfect" couples with failed marriages and vice-versa also (of couples with no astrological porutham having good marriages).

Dunno but maybe generalizing is not a good idea...Bcoz like our birth, there are some events which are not in our hands or in which we do not have much control. So irrespective of B or NB, i feel marriage is like a gamble in which both the dice-players merely acts of fate. Maybe its a case of "ellam avan seiyyal".

 

[kunjuppu]

valli,

for those hindus who live outside of india, caste, i have found goes away with the children. almost all the children of tambrams in toronto that i know, have married or are marrying outside of the caste or region, as these things do not mean much. there is also a certain honesty with the children that cannot be whitewashed with empty words of brahmin superiority.

in the end, here, your children will love you, but you will have to accept whom they marry and whom they keep as friends, as something where you have little or no influence. it is good that way, as most of them, even the children of the ardent racist tambrams i know, the children have no caste prejudices. so refreshing to see that!!

i always feel that in india, the society per se, is against, ic or ir marriages. one needs the support of the family, or one family, for ic marriages. the same goes for ir marriages. and it is good, for the couple to identify with the part, with whom they get the most support.

re sangom suggestion that the children identify with the NB parent may not hold water. tbc, only because, our stupid laws say that the caste of the father is the defining caste of the child. dont know why?

 

[Nara]

....re sangom suggestion that the children identify with the NB parent may not hold water. tbc, only because, our stupid laws say that the caste of the father is the defining caste of the child.

K, This is only for the benefits government offers to certain sections of society. Government won't hinder an icm couple from raising their children without any caste identity.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Does anyone here know that the brahmin girl's certificates and her wedding certificate always says that she is a brahmin???

Do wedding certificates mention caste?

It is only her children who get recognised as Nonbrahmins and not her according to our Indian Law!

There have been many a brahmins here who say that even if they discard their brahminism, by the law they are still considered brahmins! Right guys! Very right! So, will you consider the girl who is still considered as brahmin according to law as a brahmin???? NO

Hipocrisy should I say?

Well, imo guys who say that are very insecure ones, but i shall not state my reasons for thinking so or i will be hounded again.

But your stand that a girl remains a brahmin all her life even if she marries a NB is i think not accepted from the smrithis pov. It applies only from the post-independence indian law pov.

According to the smrithis, if a brahmin girl marries a shudra boy she becomes an outcaste, and her children are bracketed as chandalas.

Thankfully, the Indian law does not recognise such a horrendous smrithi law. So you can say that the Indian Law has saved brahmin girls from smrithis.

Infact, indian law has also "saved" men who claim to be brahmin by birth, even if they have discarded brahmanism, because that is the only way they still get to be socially recognized as brahmins.

Regards.

 

[kunjuppu]

Do wedding certificates mention caste?

yes they do.

Infact, indian law has also "saved" men who claim to be brahmin by birth, even if they have discarded brahmanism, because that is the only way they still get to be socially recognized as brahmins.

Regards.

i dont know if the word 'saved' describes the situation - the way i understand it, the beef eating mani shankar iyer or agnostic kamalahassan or the head of the kanchi mutt - all these three are banded together as 'brahmins' by the goi terminology and definition.

my only gripe, is that, in ic marriages, the child should be allowed to chose the caste. especially for government jobs or college admission. i am not going into the morals or religious focus here - i am talking from the pov of equality of genders. the mother should have the right to claim the caste of the child, if she so choses, for in the eyes of the goi, she remains, whatever NB caste she is, and the hubby, remains a brahmin.

what is good for the gander, is also good, for the goose. n'est pas?

 

[sarang]

I believe if the father belongs to forward caste and the mother, backward caste, the children will not be eligible for reservation benefits. If the father is backward, the children are assigned to backward caste.

I have come across two cases of brahmin girls with backward caste husbands have got university teaching posts under reserved category. I know a few teachers working on adhoc basis for several years in the reserved vacancies; they will be asked to quit if a suitable backward candidate is found. That is life for those who work in government and aided colleges/ universities.

 

[rajesh]

If I were in the position of your friend's husband I will rather ensure that the children are brought up as NBs and not as Bs and even in the relevant records because it is more beneficial for the children's future.

Dear Sangom,
Could you pls explain this little more, if you dont mind? Why do you consider it is better to raise children as NBs?
Do you have any specific experiences to quote.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

If I were in the position of your friend's husband I will rather ensure that the children are brought up as NBs and not as Bs and even in the relevant records because it is more beneficial for the children's future.

Dear Sangom,
Could you pls explain this little more, if you dont mind? Why do you consider it is better to raise children as NBs?
Do you have any specific experiences to quote.

In TN, the advantages are clear. One of the most politically powerful persons won't come after you whenever an opportunity presents or use you as a scapegoat!

In addition, if the said NB community is classified as backward, for which there are good chances as exemplified by HH's observation in another thread (88% of TN pop is classified backward), the material advantages are crystal clear.

Bear in mind that differential treatment by the govt runs deep and does not stop with reservation in jobs and academic institutes.

To give a couple of examples:

There is discrimination based on caste even for concessional educational loan for poor (see attached image).

The govt is mulling a proposal to bar criminals from participating in politics and encouraging women to become politicians. To this end, it is considering funding poll expenses of women within a certain income limit but this concession is, you guessed right, NOT available for FC candidates; only for SC/ST/OBC.




Last but not least, you will not have members arising out of your own community hating you in the guise of reform!

Sangom is correct! People will do well to take his advice.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Sangom Sir, Greetings.

........If I were in the position of your friend's husband I will rather ensure that the children are brought up as NBs and not as Bs and even in the relevant records because it is more beneficial for the children's future.

( I hight lighted a portion of the quoted message).

Sir, With due respect to your opinions, I don't think there is anything like 'bringing up the children as NBs', in my opinion, please. In the case of Brahmin children, for the boys to get Upanayanam what have you may be considered as 'bringing up as a Brahmin child'; in the case of daughters, again I don't see an unique way bringing up as a Brahmin child.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sowbagyavathy Valli, Greetings.

...Now, I have this honest doubt (yes, once again!)!...

I think, you may have forgotten to mention about your doubt. The opening post sounds more like your opinion about a situation; I fail to see your doubt in there.

So, will you consider the girl who is still considered as brahmin according to law as a brahmin????

This is a subjective question. Reply depends upon who answers the question. In our own street, a TB family was renting for a few years; eldest girl in that family fell in love with a 'mudaliar' boy from the same street. She was educated and working as a teacher; he did not even pass primary school. He was very slightly better off than her. They got married. Still she is considered as a Brahmin girl for all intends and purposes (like getting invited for varalakshmi Vradham, Nonbu etc.). Her parents too live with her. I heard, that boy became vegetarian for her.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

K, This is only for the benefits government offers to certain sections of society. Government won't hinder an icm couple from raising their children without any caste identity.

Cheers!

Sri.Nara, Greetings.

Government does hinder ICM couples from raising their children without caste identity. Children of ICM couples are also required fill the column about their caste; there is no exception for them. If that column is not filled, the application becomes void. Also, the children are required to assume the caste of their father.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

In TN, the advantages are clear. One of the most politically powerful persons won't come after you whenever an opportunity presents or use you as a scapegoat!

In addition, if the said NB community is classified as backward, for which there are good chances as exemplified by HH's observation in another thread (88% of TN pop is classified backward), the material advantages are crystal clear.

May i ask which is the "said NB community" classified as backward exemplified by my observations?

Bear in mind that differential treatment by the govt runs deep and does not stop with reservation in jobs and academic institutes.

To give a couple of examples:

There is discrimination based on caste even for concessional educational loan for poor (see attached image).

The govt is mulling a proposal to bar criminals from participating in politics and encouraging women to become politicians. To this end, it is considering funding poll expenses of women within a certain income limit but this concession is, you guessed right, NOT available for FC candidates; only for SC/ST/OBC.

View attachment 1256

The education-loan given to SC/ST section as well as to OBC section depends on the same criteria -- it is given to families with annual income of upto 40,000 in rural areas to upto 55,000 in urban areas. But to the "dalits among dalits" such as the Arundathiyars (scavengers or safai karamcharis) there are no such (income) barriers.

Well, all these are "backward" people, designated "backward". One cannot expect loans to Forward Castes being given by the "Ministry of Social Justice and Empowerment" -- to the public it is about "Social Justice". IMO it will be impossible for Forward Castes to expect educational loans by the government when clearly the idea is to undo discrimination of the past.

If you feel there is some reason why government should give educational loans to Forward Caste people, then please do state relevant reasons.

 

[happyhindu]

i dont know if the word 'saved' describes the situation - the way i understand it, the beef eating mani shankar iyer or agnostic kamalahassan or the head of the kanchi mutt - all these three are banded together as 'brahmins' by the goi terminology and definition.

my only gripe, is that, in ic marriages, the child should be allowed to chose the caste. especially for government jobs or college admission. i am not going into the morals or religious focus here - i am talking from the pov of equality of genders. the mother should have the right to claim the caste of the child, if she so choses, for in the eyes of the goi, she remains, whatever NB caste she is, and the hubby, remains a brahmin.

what is good for the gander, is also good, for the goose. n'est pas?

Well sir, the indian law is patrilineal in the sense that children take the caste of the father. This is how indian "laws" were instituted.

Gender equality was not known to "hindu laws" (smrithis). From the orthodox pov, a female cannot hope to choose the caste of the child. Unless ofcourse there are some changes in the religion.

To me, both patrilineality and matrilineality make no sense these days. It wud be great to have a system based on gender equality. A new system, where there is no backlog of both, the indian laws as well as the smrithis-laws.

For long a daughter has been "given away" in marriage. It wud be great to see a system where both the daughter and the son are "given away" in marriage to one another. Where they are free to make a life for themselves without interference from parents on both sides and without any mental bondages of any kind (including caste). Let the child get to choose his/her varna when she/he grows up, and change it whenever s/he wishes to.

However, all this is idealism sir...

 

[கால பைரவன்]

The education-loan given to SC/ST section as well as to OBC section depends on the same criteria -- it is given to families with annual income of upto 40,000 in rural areas to upto 55,000 in urban areas. But to the "dalits among dalits" such as the Arundathiyars (scavengers or safai karamcharis) there are no such (income) barriers.

Well, all these are "backward" people, designated "backward". One cannot expect loans to Forward Castes being given by the "Ministry of Social Justice and Empowerment" -- to the public it is about "Social Justice". IMO it will be impossible for Forward Castes to expect educational loans by the government when clearly the idea is to undo discrimination of the past.

If you feel there is some reason why government should give educational loans to Forward Caste people, then please do state relevant reasons.

I am pointing out the fact that the government will discriminate even the poorest with pretty low income levels - in this case about Rs. 150 per day, based on caste.

So it is beneficial to a brahmin if he raises his kid as a NB (as Sangom suggested), when there is an opportunity as in case of inter-caste marriages involving brahmin woman and NB man.

 

[kunjuppu]

dear happy,

re your post #18.

i think, the issue, 64 years of independence later, is what defines 'social justice' in india. and in tamil nadu to be specific.

compared to 1947, india has moved light years in terms of social attitude development. for the better. some of it was forced, but also, there has been a general enlightenment of attitude. i wish to emphasize, that it is 'by and large', for one could always find pockets of traditionalists, who would deny the changes, of attitudes, laws and above all, morality.

while the attitudes have been progressing in the right direction, the sense of entitlement, reinforced by vote bank politics, has been moving in the direction of 'winner grab all'. with increased awareness of their power, with increased awareness of the injustices meted out to their ancestors, the dalits and the socalled shudras, are now in a position of power, to set past wrongs right.

they have effectively used the concept of group votings and vote banks. this is an effective use of using the voting privilege by a minority to influence the election result. for example, if your community is 20% of voters in a precinct, effectively, if we just divide by 2 candidates, and if they can assure 100% voting, they contribute 40% to a candidate's vote bank... you can work it out, how this can be effectively used to elect favoured candidates, who will push laws favourable to their community.

since the concept of reservation has been on since 1947, we have had more than 3 generations of dalits who have had the benefit of modern education and who are a good role model for their communities. but that is only a small percentage, <10%, i think. the vast majority of the dalits are still living the life of their forefathers, if not physically, mentally socially and above all economically. the biggest crime of hinduism, has been to marginalize the dalits, to a group beyond the pale, and for which no amount of restitution can be provided. this is our original sin, and we brahmins, at the top of the totem pole, are sole responsble for this stratification of castes and its consequences.

this topic is beaten to death, not only in this forum but probably in thousands of other forums. my only gripe, is that the tamil brahmins, most of whom have through the beneficial development of the early years of independence have moved on to better economic prospects, still do not have a sense of ownership of the past.

among the brahmins, there is no sense of need to introspect the past, and in a way, even tangentially, apologize, for the criminal abuse of the mind, and the seeds, that manu's casteism, still appearing to sow, without fail, into every upper caste person in tamil nadu and india. it may not manifest in overt behaviour, but it shows its ugly fang - when a daughter marries a NB, the said pearl of the father's eye, no longer invited for the most intimate of family functions like the sumangali prarthanai and thevasam. this is the biggest f*** up of the mind, that i have seen. no peers elsewhere.

so, happy, to answer your query, till, an overall acceptance of ownership of manu's smriti comes from the tambrams and brahmins at large, and an apology, for what could be described as crimes against humanity against the dalits expressed by those who speak for the tambrams, like the kanchi mutt, any concession, seen fair, unfair or deviant, towards the dalits and obcs, in my opinion, is deserved and in a direct way, the quickest way to right milleniums of wrongs.

hope this explains.

thank you. God Bless you dearest lady.

 

[Nara]

... (88% of TN pop is classified backward), the material advantages are crystal clear..

Reservation of 69% for 88% of population -- what is crystal clear.

I believe there was a large chunk of engineering seats that went unfilled.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

To the public it is about "Social Justice". IMO it will be impossible for Forward Castes to expect educational loans by the government when clearly the idea is to undo discrimination of the past.

The idea is to provide exclusive benefits to certain sections of the society so that they can forever be loyal to the political parties.

But you are correct about FCs. Even the poorest among FCs cannot expect justice from the government. The sooner they realize the better it is for them. I think lot of people here do not even know such discrimination exists. I am just bringing it to their attention.

 

[kunjuppu]

The idea is to provide exclusive benefits to certain sections of the society so that they can forever be loyal to the political parties.

But you are correct about FCs. Even the poorest among FCs cannot expect justice from the government. The sooner they realize the better it is for them. I think lot of people here do not even know such discrimination exists. I am just bringing it to their attention.

please read my post #21.

do you feel responsible as tambram, for the crimes committed against the dalits.

what do you say.

yes?

no?

i thank you.

 

[Nara]

The idea is to provide exclusive benefits to certain sections of the society so that they can forever be loyal to the political parties.

The concept of reservation started pre-independence. Reservation in educational institutions for SC/ST is as old as our republic. Those who implemented this system were above petty political interests. So, this charge is a hyperbole.

Further, if the electoral alliances are any indication, one can see that no party has a lock on any section of society that receives reservation benefit. This is another emotional charge not supported by data.

.... Even the poorest among FCs cannot expect justice from the government.

What is justice? Perhaps for KB, for a reservation system to be just, FCs, by which he means Bs, must be given their fair share. But, under the present system, even with 69% reservation, the B's who constitute about 3% of the population get to compete against 31% of the available seats, that is 10 times their fair share. So, even this charge of justice is emotionally motivated.

Also, if you look at poverty, you would find it is lot more prevalent among dalits than Bs. Further, a poor B, even if he/she barely passed +2, has a lot wider support network, but a class topper dalit can turn to nobody else but the government. In other words, even the poorest of Brahmins have access to infinitely more cultural assets like Kerala Brahmin association than a dalit, even if he/she is a class topper.

A liberal democratic government has a duty to address the needs of the long denied than the ones who enjoy infinitely more. An impartial and honest analysis of the facts will show that the reservation policy, which surely can be improved in many ways, is a roaring success not only because it has lifted so many truly deserving youngsters from the long oppressed classes, but also doing this without denying the Bs and FCs of any educational or economic opportunities -- not one one of my B friends and relatives I know have done poorly in the Dravidian ruled Tamil Nadu.

Cheers!