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Blog article: A tamil brahmin in Bangalore

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Smt. Happy Hindu,

My views may not be liked by many here. Still, I feel Tabras are feeling a lot about the virtual monopoly of British government jobs which they enjoyed (may be not even for a full hundred years but much less), because, many of them think that will not be able to live without the cosy security of such monopoly. Today, while many from the younger generations have found employment in IT and other sectors and a few of these Tabras have also risen to high positions within those IT sector companies, the job is very exacting, monotonous and becomes highly stressful - even for the base level programmers, I am told by some middle aged IT men - that they yearn for the safety, security and (if I may say) the "laid back" atmosphere of government jobs (go late, come early, sign attendance and vanish, and if circumstances permit, make some extra money on the side, etc.). I also understand that some of the youngsters resign - before being asked to quit or getting "benched" as a prelude to it - and join (foreign) banks in India as clerks, if they can bring in sufficient recommendation. This is a repeat of the very scenario which kunjuppu describes. Added to all these, the astronomical salaries of IT sector are no longer there, I understand. Perhaps you and others may be able to correct me if some of the above info is wrong.

Dear Sangom Sir,

May be you have come across only such rare specimens who "yearn" for the "comforts" of Government and bank jobs and would join as a clerk in a bank, that too with some recommendation to back them, leaving behind the boring IT jobs. I am from the I.T. Industry and I can tell you with full knowledge that what you have said is not applicable to the IT Industry youngsters of India. The IT people, if benched for long, are ready to resign and stay at home to hunt for another job in the same field than to go for the clerical job in a Bank or an IAS in the Government. I do not know from where you got such ideas. As you have said tentatively, your info is completely wrong.
 

kunjuppu

Active member
Dear Kunjuppu,
.


Just one question. Please answer this.

All of periyar's assistants were from the dominant castes of Mudaliyars, Pillais, Yadavas etc., and none was from the Dalit castes. This was periyar's way of fighting the casteism and establishing social equality in Tamilnadu!! Or would you still defend your enthusiasm for periyarism by saying that it was just a coincidence?

ofcourse suraju,

periyar himself did not claim that he was perfect. perhaps he is the only leader of stature that i know, who has gone on record, telling his followers, to read his thoughts carefully, accept only what is relevant to them, and the times they live in. and discard the rest.

i think periyar realilzed the importance of that current moment when he was able to propagate his reformatory views. it would be irrelevant today, as most of periyar's teaching are passe.

periyar changed the tambram community. if we are more tolerant today, if our daughters are given 100% freedom same as our boys, if we go all over the world for education or work and above all, accept atleast in public, the dignity of every human, periyar has had some influence in it.

otherwise, our attitudes would have been the same as our grand and fore fathers.

let us not talk of exceptions and bring out bharathiyar or vaidynathan iyer (who was incidentally very flawed) or rajaji. we are talking of the normal average household with day to day practise of aacharam and poojais and punaskarams.

it is ofcourse public knowledge that periyar did not care about dalits. but he broke the myth and invincibility of the tambrams. in doing so, he made possible for MK to happen. personally i think it will take another generation before we have a dalit CM in tamil nadu. i had hopes with thirumavalavan, but he appears to be happy to be a joeboy for MK or J. he could have done better!!!
 
Dear Shri Krishnamurthy,


Now, therefore, it is for us Brahmans to see the writing on the wall and decide whether we would prefer our exclusivity and achieve "moksha" in one go கூண்டோடு கைலாஸம் என்கிற மாதிரி, பிரம்மணர்கள் கூட்டத்தோடு கைலாஸம், because no government in future will care for a minuscule 5% in any meaningful way; the Kashmiri Pandits are living examples, or,

do we try genuinely and zealously to forge an alliance - politically as well as socially - with all the other forward castes of Hindus and find our future among them, along with them.

Dear Sangom Sir,

If you can make your position more clear it would help. What do you expect the brahmins to do ? You have given 2 options. The first one is not clear while the second one is very clear. Do you recommend voluntary conversion of all brahmins to dalits or more powerful mandal castes or do you recommend brahmin community as a whole to commit some sort of harakiri so that they can all be born in the mandal castes in their next birth and do penance. Please make it clear.
 
Sri.Kunjuppu said -

....periyar changed the tambram community. if we are more tolerant today, if our daughters are given 100% freedom same as our boys, if we go all over the world for education or work and above all, accept atleast in public, the dignity of every human, periyar has had some influence in it.

otherwise, our attitudes would have been the same as our grand and fore fathers.

Sri.Kunjuppu,

Greetings. I beg to differ with you, please. If Ramasamy Naicker brought positive changes to Tamil Brahmin community, quite a piece of community spread from Chandragiri down to Vellore did not know about it. Ramasamy Naicker was very vocal for unting the Sudhras, consisting of all the castes other than brahmins; but, Harijans did not have room in that. my own grand mother who followed all the மடி and ஆசாரம் was more broadminded towards Harijan than most so called revelutionary thinking pesons. In fact, it was my grand mother who took me to the Humanism in the initial stages. (granted, she was not prepared to accept non-brahmin grooms for her daughters; was prepared to conditionally accept non-brahmin alliances for her grand children; relaxed even further for her great-grand children).

My grand mother had no use for anything connected to Ramasamy Naicker. Since I don't know much, I am only citing a personal example; I am sure, there would be many more persons as broad-minded as my grand mother. I can't give credit to Ramasamy Naicker for all those great souls who transform Brahmin community. If I go by what Mr.Venkatesan says, Ramasamy Naicker had no real interest for the betterment of Harijans.

sorry, but I have to disagree with you.

Cheers!
 
Dear Kunjuppu,

I am not surprised to read your post. I expected this. My reasons for concluding that Periyar was the biggest fraud that ever happened in Tamil History are:

He never practised what he preached. He cleverly tried to preempt this accusation by saying that he was not perfect. That was not even being clever: clumsy I would say.
His sincerety to any cause was not even skin deep. He would say something and do just the opposite and justify it by saying that he did not want questions to be asked to him.

Now for whatever changes have happened to the brahmin community are all because of march of time and they owe nothing to periyar or his hatred-mongering. You can attribute everything in India today to Periyar including the tablet computers, trains and buses that are running, the number of Engineering graduates that are coming out of the colleges, the capture of forest brigand veerappan,India winning the world cup cricket match etc etc., It is your liberty!!
 
Dear Sangom Sir,

May be you have come across only such rare specimens who "yearn" for the "comforts" of Government and bank jobs and would join as a clerk in a bank, that too with some recommendation to back them, leaving behind the boring IT jobs. I am from the I.T. Industry and I can tell you with full knowledge that what you have said is not applicable to the IT Industry youngsters of India. The IT people, if benched for long, are ready to resign and stay at home to hunt for another job in the same field than to go for the clerical job in a Bank or an IAS in the Government. I do not know from where you got such ideas. As you have said tentatively, your info is completely wrong.

Shri Suraju,

i have interacted with many middle aged men now (around 40-45) who studied computer science during the 80's or so, went to the states, some came back due to different reasons. The general opinion they say is that the IT job is as monotonous as any other and more exacting. The opposite view is seen in one who works for one large IT employer but when I confronted the other group person with this he said that there are some fellows in every place who will ensure a good time for themselves and that unless you make a case study it won't be possible to say the reason for the happiness of this person.

Two people have resigned IT jobs and one of them has joined an indian bank because of influence. This boy studied computer or electronics engg. the second person has resigned but may be joining a foreign bank operating in India soon, that was what I was given to understand; he also studied engg only, not commerce or economics.

Anyway what you say may also be right. It is the mental attitude and, like it or not, so many lakhs will be working in IT sector, given India's unemployment situation.
 
Dear Sangom Sir,

If you can make your position more clear it would help. What do you expect the brahmins to do ? You have given 2 options. The first one is not clear while the second one is very clear. Do you recommend voluntary conversion of all brahmins to dalits or more powerful mandal castes or do you recommend brahmin community as a whole to commit some sort of harakiri so that they can all be born in the mandal castes in their next birth and do penance. Please make it clear.

What I meant was, in the course of the next one or two generations Brahmans will meet with fate similar to the Kashmiri Pandits, Zoroastrians, etc. Our numbers in India will come down, many will emigrate to other countries either as employees, services (priests in temples), dependents of the two and by marriage as well. That is what i meant by it, not mass harakiri, but utter failure in getting the reservation system out of the way and consequent developments. A few will still remain, generally the lowest economic strata. I observe that they have seen the shape of things to come and have slowly taken up various small enterprises and even started marrying out of caste willingly. I feel the children of such marriages may not claim brahman status.
 

kunjuppu

Active member
sangom,

i wonder what would have happened to our community, had our grandfather generation, were smart enough to see the writing on the wall, and at that time, with power in their hands, negotiated percentage reservation for the tambrams, instead of the 'all or nothing' attitude.

we have ended up with nothing. as my family is experiencing, even in singapore, there is quota per the percentage of population in all schools. my nephews and nieces have been forced to go to u.k. or australia their college education. nobody is complaining about it. but starting from the birth, the parents start saving for the education.

if by chance, they are lucky enough to get admitted to NUS or NTU they are laughing. otherwise they are prepared.

suppose we now have a situation where 5% of our community has assured seats, do you think, that the well off tambrams, would be large hearted to let those seats for the poorer ones in our community?
 
There is built-in bias to say anyone can be Brahmin, as if that is somehow a superior state to which all good people must aspire, when in reality, it is a status that is strictly birth-based.

People who show compassion, empathy, and care for others are good people. There is no need to use caste-labels at all.
:thumb:

If i cud vote, i would vote this as the best post of this thread. :first:

Thankyou sir.
 
HH,

You are at it again!!
Raju, I too cud tell you "You are at it again". Please i hope we cud talk to the point.

You are talking about the old testament , half of which was concocted and sanitized by the Nicean Creed which met due to compulsive circumstances.
So the jews were not slaves before they were freed by Moses???

There is a much more reliable chronicled history which speaks about the ghettos of the cities of Europe to which the jews were confined and treated like tethered beasts.
Well the dalits too were bonded labourers and treated inhumanly weren't they. So ofcourse their position is similar to the jews (even by this yardstick there is no connection between brahmins and jews).

They went tnrough pyrhic experiences called pogroms/world war II to get free. May be panchamans of India are also destined to go through such experiences before they get free from the clutches of the Mandal crowd of dominent castes of India.
The Mandal crowd of the dominant classes did what they did (or still do) in emulation of the hinduization / sanskritisation process. That is, to exert their social dominance and somehow claim nobility for themselves but through means of torture...all thanks to the dharmashastras like Manusmrithi written to sanction / justify oppression of Shudras; and to the culture of kshatropeta-brahmins (of 'kshatriyas' claiming brahminhood). Am using the term 'kshatriyas' although their origin as "varna-less warriors" is more likely appropriate.

They were just aggressive brutes who were called and want to be called "kshatriyas". The next step they wud aspire for was ofcourse to become or be called brahmins. [[Where does that leave the poor vaidika, or the genuine brahmin, who for no fault of his had to contend with brutes claiming brahmin-hood]]. Those dominant OBCs are called shudras today. But if we go back in time, they had titled themselves 'kshatriyas'. And lived up to their dharmashastra-role of keeping the Shudra down. Methinks it is ironical that they themselves (that is, their descendents) are shudras today.

And ofcourse the dalits also know pretty well what caused their condition.

Regards.
 
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kunjuppu

Active member
raju,

i think this is not a forum for jewish antecedents expertise.

my two bits on this.

the 12 tribes of judea were the establishment tribe of palestine of the jesus era. they were a ruling priest class, and tribes like the philistines were the lower castes. with the advent of jesus came the trouble for the jews, for when the roman empire adopted christianity as the official faith, it was not too far long, before the jews were condemned as 'killers of christ'.

i grew up in santhome neightbourhood of madras, the overwhelming community there being catholics. there was a small general store run by one joseph, whom i thought was an anglo indian because he was fair.

one day, cyril, one of my closest friends told me not to patronise joseph's store because joseph was a jew, and jews were christ killers. this, madras of late 1950s, early 60s.

the catholic church is not known for its tolerance, and has probably burnt more folks in the stake or its variations, over the centuries than any other faith.

timerlane might have killed millions, but it was sheer brutal conqueror's savagery, though he spared the muslims of delhi, and slaughtered all of its estimated then 100,000 hindus.

so, please, please and pretty please, never again, mention jews and tambrams in the same breath. lest we need to go to yet another level, to disprove the similarities between jews and tambrams. the formers are giants, we are pygmies, and that too selfish narrow minded little people of little minds.

more later..
 
He never practised what he preached. He cleverly tried to preempt this accusation by saying that he was not perfect. That was not even being clever: clumsy I would say.
Well Shri Raju, no matter what we say here, it remains a fact that EVR is remembered as a leader who caused the poor to have "self-respect".

I have been trying to understand more about EVR since quite some time now. Am not able to say for sure reg some things in his personal life or if he was an atheist. Plus some things are very sketchy. But am convinced he wanted everyone to have 'self-respect' and not bow down to caste-concepts that demean a man for his birth.

Am told EVR had less tolerance for the dalit attitude towards education/progress and the sluggish pace of dalit progress, and hence out of frustration lashed out at some of them with his brutal tongue for their ways, their caste, their attitude, etc (even today how many of us have any tolerance for slow-pokes, drunkards, lazy bums, etc irrespective of caste). So well am not surprised at what Mr.Venkatesan had to say.

But dalits were not the only people EVR abused. In those days some spoilt rich men (usually merchants) considered it a status symbol and proof of virility to have concubines, and lavish money on devadasis (btw brahmins also visited those hapless women). Having a concubine was practiced by some of the so-called "upper-caste" men of various castes.

The unfortunate wife at home simply had to "tolerate" the husband's ways simply because she was a 'woman' and a husband was "the man". EVR was extremely intolerant of such things (that is, women being treated as nothing more than sex objects) and abused the caste of everyone, including the caste of his own people who indulged in such things. So i don't think he selectively abused only dalits for their caste. He simply abused the idea of "caste" in every form to attack what he thot was inequality.

Though EVR's methods of acheiving social equality and some 'advices' he gave esp to women were definitely wrong, am able to say one thing for sure -- EVR was committed to dalit upliftment in the time-period that he lived.

Am talking of a period when brahmins at the top were hardly 5% and dalits at the bottom were hardly 30% of the population. The majority population called shudras were made of people who were abjectly poor and no better off than dalits.

It is also a fact that in the colonial times many dalits had successfully entered the ranks of other varnas, and made-up a large chunk of the shudra varna; as is evident from colonial censuses that record claims, stories, and the exponential increase in caste numbers. So this was the time period when the difference between shudras and dalits was getting increasingly blurred. The rich amongst this shudra-dalit lot must have most certainly realised that.

They probably realised the futility of going to courts for varna positions to beget elevated social positions of respect that came from "caste". They probably realised that except reservations, they and the poor amongst them had no other means of emancipation from a social situation where the brahmanical elite kept putting them down.

They must have realised that economic development is closely associated with social-standing. They must have guaged the situation corrrectly for today ironically brahmins conduct ceremonies and treat those very "low-caste" moneyed men like respected yajamans.

Am quite convinced that dalits who gained from reservations were most certainly the poor, and they have progressed well, atleast to live a life of self-sufficiency, where they do not need external factors like 'caste' to give them a position of social respect.

I feel there is a big difference in 'dalits' having academic-reservations and 'brahmins' having reservations. For the former its more about emancipation of social position that comes through the way of upward academic / entrepreneurial mobility. But the latter do not seem to understand that. They (or atleast some elders amongst the brahmins) still proclaim their birth-superiority, intelligence, greatness, are self-reverential about their "caste", want to keep casteism going, as is evident from the posts in this very forum; and yet some want reservations for brahmins. Its like wanting to have the cake and eat it too.

I feel pretty much sure that as long as the orthodox religion does not adapt to changing times, all proclamations on how evil EVR was, how intelligent and great brahmins are, or whatever else we say here will merely remain just "talk" and will make no difference to the public at large.

Regards.
 
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sravna

Well-known member
To me the knowledge given by a sankara or a ramanuja is indsipensable for real progress of self and society. Use of knowledge given by them is more likely to give me a lasting happiness and make me a better fit in the society and also a better contributor to the society. These people and the other great philosophers of India made exactly the right focus for peace of self and society and belittling thier contributions and considering them as dwarfs compared to the other achievers in fact only serves to make one sway away from the peace that one constantly strives for
 
the 12 tribes of judea were the establishment tribe of palestine of the jesus era. they were a ruling priest class, and tribes like the philistines were the lower castes.
Sorry for the digression sir. But i thot only the levites were the priestly class amongst the jews (not all the tribes) ??
 
sangom,

i wonder what would have happened to our community, had our grandfather generation, were smart enough to see the writing on the wall, and at that time, with power in their hands, negotiated percentage reservation for the tambrams, instead of the 'all or nothing' attitude.

we have ended up with nothing. as my family is experiencing, even in singapore, there is quota per the percentage of population in all schools. my nephews and nieces have been forced to go to u.k. or australia their college education. nobody is complaining about it. but starting from the birth, the parents start saving for the education.

if by chance, they are lucky enough to get admitted to NUS or NTU they are laughing. otherwise they are prepared.

suppose we now have a situation where 5% of our community has assured seats, do you think, that the well off tambrams, would be large hearted to let those seats for the poorer ones in our community?

Kunjuppu,

In that imaginary situation (which I think will never become real) do you have any doubt that our well-off tabras will use all their skills to corner it for their own wards; even if the government tags it with BPL criterion/income criterion, our rich tabras will produce evidence to show that they are poor and fall below the level specified. Have you any doubt about it?

Even now in my colony there are many instances of pettiness everyday from couples getting nearly 50,000 p.m. as pension, huge bungalows worth 40 to 50 lakhs (ten cents of land) and kids working and earning fabulously in US or other foreign countries. Just one example would be the size of the தூக்கு or கூஜா these people take to the temple to get பாயஸம் prasaadam on special days! It will look as though there are many mouths in the household to be fed; and mostly these people will have diabetes ;)
 
raju,

i think this is not a forum for jewish antecedents expertise.

my two bits on this.

the 12 tribes of judea were the establishment tribe of palestine of the jesus era. they were a ruling priest class, and tribes like the philistines were the lower castes. with the advent of jesus came the trouble for the jews, for when the roman empire adopted christianity as the official faith, it was not too far long, before the jews were condemned as 'killers of christ'.

i grew up in santhome neightbourhood of madras, the overwhelming community there being catholics. there was a small general store run by one joseph, whom i thought was an anglo indian because he was fair.

one day, cyril, one of my closest friends told me not to patronise joseph's store because joseph was a jew, and jews were christ killers. this, madras of late 1950s, early 60s.

the catholic church is not known for its tolerance, and has probably burnt more folks in the stake or its variations, over the centuries than any other faith.

timerlane might have killed millions, but it was sheer brutal conqueror's savagery, though he spared the muslims of delhi, and slaughtered all of its estimated then 100,000 hindus.

so, please, please and pretty please, never again, mention jews and tambrams in the same breath. lest we need to go to yet another level, to disprove the similarities between jews and tambrams. the formers are giants, we are pygmies, and that too selfish narrow minded little people of little minds.

more later..

Kunjuppu,

I am a big zero when it comes to Jewish history. But right now many of our members feel that tabras are a "persecuted lot" for no fault of theirs. In that very limited sense, we all know that Hitler persecuted the Jews, Tabras are being persecuted. I feel this is the main reason for the Jews-Tabras-Hitler topic coming up again and again.

But I have read somewhere that Hitler had valid reason/s to feel against Jews, not only from his own life experiences but as a general grievance of the non-Jewish population. In that book it was also emphasized that it was not just the "magic" force of Hitler's oratory but the sub-terranean dislike of Jews which made the Nazi to become as popular as it became and most old non-Jew Germans were sympathetic to it though it was the youngsters who joined the party in large numbers.

May be you are the proper person to clarify the actual position.
 
Dear Sangom Sir,
In that imaginary situation (which I think will never become real) do you have any doubt that our well-off tabras will use all their skills to corner it for their own wards; even if the government tags it with BPL criterion/income criterion, our rich tabras will produce evidence to show that they are poor and fall below the level specified. Have you any doubt about it?

At least ******* will have to exert as you have rightly said by using all their skills to produce those evidences. What about the rich middle castes who will have every thing delivered at their door steps without any exertion even if they were stinking rich? We have the experience with the தமிழக அரசு வண்ண தொ(ல்)லைக்காட்சி பெட்டி.
Even now in my colony there are many instances of pettiness everyday from couples getting nearly 50,000 p.m. as pension, huge bungalows worth 40 to 50 lakhs (ten cents of land) and kids working and earning fabulously in US or other foreign countries. Just one example would be the size of the தூக்கு or கூஜா these people take to the temple to get பாயஸம் prasaadam on special days! It will look as though there are many mouths in the household to be fed; and mostly these people will have diabetes ;)

I find you are writing about this kind of experience quite frequently. I have my views about this. I intend to write about this after waiting for some time.
 
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Dear Sangom Sir,

But I have read somewhere that Hitler had valid reason/s to feel against Jews, not only from his own life experiences but as a general grievance of the non-Jewish population. In that book it was also emphasized that it was not just the "magic" force of Hitler's oratory but the sub-terranean dislike of Jews which made the Nazi to become as popular as it became and most old non-Jew Germans were sympathetic to it though it was the youngsters who joined the party in large numbers.

In a society there are always grievances. Malayalis have grievances against tamils. Tamils have grievances against malayalis, maharashtrians, kannadigas, sinhalese etc etc., But civilized societies find solution for such grievances in a non-violent, give and take sort of format and avoid upheavals. The grievances against jews, however strong or justified they might have been, were solved through pogroms which is why it was and it remains for ever a barbaric solution. That is the reason why Hitler is notorious. And BTW if i see traces of a sub-terranean glee and a chuckle in your words at the predicament of the *******, you wont be finding fault with me!!
Cheers.
 
Dear HH,

Well Shri Raju, no matter what we say here, it remains a fact that EVR is remembered as a leader who caused the poor to have "self-respect".

Yes indeed! Remembered by the beneficiaries of his fraud(the powerful, numerically superior middle castes).

But am convinced he wanted everyone to have 'self-respect' and not bow down to caste-concepts that demean a man for his birth.
Yes. Everyone except the panchamans.

Am told EVR had less tolerance for the dalit attitude towards education/progress and the sluggish pace of dalit progress, and hence out of frustration lashed out at some of them with his brutal tongue for their ways, their caste, their attitude, etc (even today how many of us have any tolerance for slow-pokes, drunkards, lazy bums, etc irrespective of caste). So well am not surprised at what Mr.Venkatesan had to say.
When a sick old man falters you do not get impatient or angry. You understand that it is due to the vagaries of time and try to help him by making an extra effort. Here it was not the case. Periyar consciously avaoided dalits from his scheme of socalled social upliftment. I call this congenital hatred and indifference.

But dalits were not the only people EVR abused. In those days some spoilt rich men (usually merchants) considered it a status symbol and proof of virility to have concubines, and lavish money on devadasis (btw brahmins also visited those hapless women). Having a concubine was practiced by some of the so-called "upper-caste" men of various castes.

i am sorry to say this. But I have to. Between a concubine and a whore a concubine is more respectable while the later deserves more sympathy. Please read Periyar's history. He was himself given to licentious ways of life in his younger age.

The unfortunate wife at home simply had to "tolerate" the husband's ways simply because she was a 'woman' and a husband was "the man". EVR was extremely intolerant of such things (that is, women being treated as nothing more than sex objects) and abused the caste of everyone, including the caste of his own people who indulged in such things. So i don't think he selectively abused only dalits for their caste. He simply abused the idea of "caste" in every form to attack what he thot was inequality.

I understand what you are trying to tell. Yes. Periyar talked very eloquently about women sexuality and her rights in that sphere. But when he married for a second time to preserve his wealth, he married a young girl far younger than him and by that single action he denied her sexual rights. This is the height of hypocracy. He did not have the moral weight to talk about all the women sexuality and her rights.

Though EVR's methods of acheiving social equality and some 'advices' he gave esp to women were definitely wrong, am able to say one thing for sure -- EVR was committed to dalit upliftment in the time-period that he lived.
You can still hold that view. It is your right.

Am talking of a period when brahmins at the top were hardly 5% and dalits at the bottom were hardly 30% of the population. The majority population called shudras were made of people who were abjectly poor and no better off than dalits.

What is the basis of this broad stroke of generalisation/assumption?
They must have realised that economic development is closely associated with social-standing.
Nothing can be farther than truth and reality than this.

I feel pretty much sure that as long as the orthodox religion does not adapt to changing times

Change is taking place sure, may be not at the pace at which some would like it to happen.

all proclamations on how evil EVR was, how intelligent and great brahmins are, or whatever else we say here will merely remain just "talk" and will make no difference to the public at large.
I have highlighted your words for effect. The two points you have stated are such that one is a corollary of the other, which is not true. EVR was evil. Among brahmins the flashes of brilliance are visible much more frequently than in other identifiable social groups. These two have nothing to do with each other.
Cheers.
 

kunjuppu

Active member
Dear Sangom Sir,

I won't make it that long and boring!!

suraju,

i am quite sure that you did not mean that sangom's posts are 'long and boring'. i for one, thoroughly enjoy every word he writes, and i only wish it would be more.

i think personally that the virtues of brevity is overestimated. i think it is better to adda sentence or two, to be more thoroughly clear in your viewpoint,than a succint two word answer which can bend both ways. unless ofcourse you intend it to be such.

also sir, we have unique expereinces in life, which reflects in our attitudes. with much humilty but with great interest, i request you to pen your life experiences. for there is no ohter person on this earth who has had your experiences, and sharing some of the same, would only be a cause of enrichment for your fellow tambrammers. :)

so, here i am waiting, waiting............. and waiting
 

kunjuppu

Active member
Kunjuppu,

I am a big zero when it comes to Jewish history. But right now many of our members feel that tabras are a "persecuted lot" for no fault of theirs. In that very limited sense, we all know that Hitler persecuted the Jews, Tabras are being persecuted. I feel this is the main reason for the Jews-Tabras-Hitler topic coming up again and again.

But I have read somewhere that Hitler had valid reason/s to feel against Jews, not only from his own life experiences but as a general grievance of the non-Jewish population. In that book it was also emphasized that it was not just the "magic" force of Hitler's oratory but the sub-terranean dislike of Jews which made the Nazi to become as popular as it became and most old non-Jew Germans were sympathetic to it though it was the youngsters who joined the party in large numbers.

May be you are the proper person to clarify the actual position.

Thank you sangom.

There is no comparison between jews and tambrams. Their histories and antecedents, are place in their societies are completely different. Let me give an encapsulated version of jewish history per moi.

Jesus was a jew. Jews were ruled by romans. Romans killed jesus, with jews’ connivance, as jesus claimed to be son of god, whereas jews of those times believed all the prophets had already arrived on this earth. With that started the thollai for the jews.

The jews lost their homeland, before jesus was born, and so they dispersed. We are talking not big distances or big numbers, but myths are born with losses. These myths become the succour of one’s sorrows and instigate dreams, whether it be of revenge or return. That is why every year the jews rallying cry, ‘next year in jerusalem’.

Till the 1500s christianity just about despised the jews. The jews had followed xtianity to all parts of the roman empire, and as xtianity spread to Europe along with it came the jews. Xtianity, like islam forbid usury or lending of money. So jews became money lenders. Money lending is very profitable. So jews made lot of money, which incited jealousy. Because jews did not arm themselves, it became open season for every bully to pick on the jews. (the moral: teach your children to defend themselves).

Germany was the first European country to fully open up all aspects of life to jews. So starting from 1600s jews became part of german life and many of them assumed german names, and lapsed in their own religion. England, treated them correct but worse. There were no pogroms (organised attacks) in England, but effectively kept them out through their class system (which was as hierarchical, and as rigid as our caste system).

Kaiser Wilhelm 2nd started world war 1 and lost. the war was fought in france mostly and I think 1/3 of france’s young men (18 – 22) died. England too bled. But germany even though defeated had its factories and mills intact. So the victorious allies made germany pay heavily for the war. This caused great resentment, and also wrecked german economy and caused inflation, thus destroying savings.

Hitler was a corporal – message runner during the war, and was awarded for bravery. Several thousand jews fought for germany in ww1 and were medalled.

Hitler after the war, got hit by a car. It was a jewish guy who saved his life by rushing him to a doctor (jewish ofcourse). But all along anti jewish feelings were there in all of Europe. Hitler added to it his race theory and effectively gassed 6 million jews from all over Europe, during world war 2 (1939-45)

Incidentally, islam considered the jews as people of the book (along with xtians) and treated the jews with tolerance. The irony after world war 2, all these arab jews (Sephardim) did a 180 degree change in attitude by opting for Israel, which was a western fabrication along with jewish group called Zionists.

Zionist were European jews, who in late 1800s, being tired of persecution in Europe, advocated a return to their ancient homeland of Israel. Except that this geographical area, was now Palestine, and occupied fully by arabs, and there were hardly jews there. there were xtian arabs there in pockets (Bethlehem, Jerusalem etc).

After the war, guilty west approved the setup of Israel, and disposed a couple of hundred thousand arabs, who were shunned by other arabs. These Palestinian refugees, lived in refugee camps in gaza and west bank of river Jordan, and now multiplied to a couple of million (large families).

So, dear sangom, pray tell me, where does the jew and tambram history cross. Not a single line of cross section.

South of india, there were jews in kochi, who have now moved on to Israel. But no where in tamil nadu. Jews from iraq (sassons) did business in india in 1800s, 1900s during british rule. But they too left.

The jews have a history of philanthropy. Wherever they went they contributed generously for the welfare of the locals. In north india there are david sasson hospitals, I think, they were free or subsidized.

Tambrams are known for tightfistedness, even the rich, and very rich. Poverty is glorified for the poor.

When a rich jew dies, his obituary would boast of the good deeds that he did – how many hospitals, schools and charities that he built and supported. When recently sivasailam died, there were list of companies that he headed. Not one line for any charity involved. I am not complaining, but calling a spade a spade.

Starting from the 1800s when jews were permitted to the universities, they have developed a tradition not only for learning, but for critical thought. Along with the scots, the jews are overwhelmingly represented in the nobel prizes. Tambrams can this as a rep of india, but still lag in total numbers, way behind the jews.

Orthodox jews, shave their women’s head, keep them apart during their menses, and have kosher laws which to me looks very confusing. Much like our concept of theetu and aacharam.

It is interesting that jewish initiatives are best thriving in a Christian gentile society. The state of Israel, after 60 years or so, is still dependent of American largess for its high standard of living. If that pipeline is turned off, every Israeli jew would be knocking the immigration doors of usa or other white societies.

For the American jews, the threat today isnot of persecution but assimilation. When you have no bogey to fear, complacency sets in. 1 in 3 jews intermarry gentiles, most of these do not practise the faith and above all do not impart jewish values to their children. Maybe this sounds a familiar lament of tambrams in the usa too? I don’t know.

Tambrams have never been persecuted in tamil nadu the way the jews of Europe were. Tambrams smelled opportunities for better life in the erstwhile british empire of india, the Indian states, Ceylon, Malaya, Singapore, burma and made good in these places. Till recently it was the fear of crossing the sea and losing caste that forced us to stay within land journeyable borders. Now we don’t care, and world is our limit.

Sangom, so concludes my brief foray into the history of jews. The jews in my opinion are giants, to tambrams’ pygmies. Let us not puff ourselves to non existing pretensions, let alone realities.

Thank you.
 
Dear HH,

Yes indeed! Remembered by the beneficiaries of his fraud(the powerful, numerically superior middle castes).

Yes. Everyone except the panchamans.

When a sick old man falters you do not get impatient or angry. You understand that it is due to the vagaries of time and try to help him by making an extra effort. Here it was not the case. Periyar consciously avaoided dalits from his scheme of socalled social upliftment. I call this congenital hatred and indifference.

i am sorry to say this. But I have to. Between a concubine and a whore a concubine is more respectable while the later deserves more sympathy. Please read Periyar's history. He was himself given to licentious ways of life in his younger age.

I understand what you are trying to tell. Yes. Periyar talked very eloquently about women sexuality and her rights in that sphere. But when he married for a second time to preserve his wealth, he married a young girl far younger than him and by that single action he denied her sexual rights. This is the height of hypocracy. He did not have the moral weight to talk about all the women sexuality and her rights.

You can still hold that view. It is your right.

What is the basis of this broad stroke of generalisation/assumption?

Nothing can be farther than truth and reality than this.

Change is taking place sure, may be not at the pace at which some would like it to happen.

I have highlighted your words for effect. The two points you have stated are such that one is a corollary of the other, which is not true. EVR was evil. Among brahmins the flashes of brilliance are visible much more frequently than in other identifiable social groups. These two have nothing to do with each other.
Cheers.
Dear Raju,

Am not a fan of EVR. Am well aware of his ways of an eye for an eye. I dislike his language and some of his advices. However, i refuse to accept that he was anti-dalit. Before things began spinning out of control, the orthodoxy could have called him for talks, to discuss the prevailing social conditions and come to some compromise before things got totally out of hand. In this, i feel the orthodoxy needs to take some part of the blame.

I feel instead of ameliorating the situation, the orthodoxy merely poured fuel into simmering embers. Perhaps the orthodoxy was living in some alter-world by preaching / expecting all brahmins (and everyone else) to go back to their old professions; and thot things wud be solved by doing so. Things obviously deteriorated from the 1910s-1920s onwards.

Not once did EVR consider himself an upper-caste nor did he associate with people based on caste. Whoever associated with him, he associated with them, that's all. I feel most rich people of his time were already aware of the blurring lines between dalits and shudras and the useless-ness of going to courts for varna positions. Btw, the yadavs were never a high caste (i cannot think of anyone who has ever given his dudhwala / paalkaran a second glance or ever considered him an 'upper-caste' guy).

EVR was no better than a dalit on the day he was thrown out by brahmins from a chatram serving free food to brahmins in Kashi. Please let me know what you wud do if you were denied food on the basis of caste and had to compete with dogs to eat leftovers out of sheer hunger and lack of money. His Kashi experiences influenced him the most. The way the brahmin pandas of Kashi "abuse(d)" widows is no big secret. Perhaps such things influenced his views on women....well, we are all products of our circumstances.

EVR was an evil guy to caste-conscious casteists (irrespective of whether they were brahmins or non-brahmins) and his speeches are certainly dislikable..there cud have been much better ways to bring about a social revolution...

Regards.
 
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Request for SM's ruling

Dear Shri KRS,

It is my understanding that rules of this site do not permit disrespectful comments about public figures who are revered by many as that would hurt their sentiments. For example, Sathya Saibaba and Jayendra Saraswati Swamigal, both are highly revered and both are controversial figures, yet personally derisive comments about them are not permitted here. If this is not correct please set me right.

In this context I would like to know where personally denigrating and offensive statements about EVR stand. Yes, EVR was a controversial man, much hated by the Brahmins. But he is much respected and even revered by an overwhelming majority of Tamil people, of whom TBs are one part.

Any discussion of social reform in India will include EVR at the very top. I myself find EVR to be a peerless reformer in Tamilnadu, much to be appreciated, and I daresay I am not alone among the members here who have such respect for EVR -- may not be many, but surely some.

Personally I have no problem with any of the cat calls against EVR. All I am interested in is a uniform code for all to follow. I would like to have the same leeway and be able to express the kind of comments being expressed about EVR the person, about those whom I consider to be deserving of the same, if not higher, level of harsh name-calling.

Please give your ruling.

Thank you ...
 
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