<B>Hinduism is on the Decline!!! (Pls vote this Poll)

[sapr333]

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Its a widely accepted fact, that Hinduism is on the decline (may be towards slow death).. Lets choose the one which we feel right out of the 12 category.

Im just trying to figure out the core cause, in order to make us aware what the core issues are.

Nothing to discuss as a thread... Let take the opion, and lets discuss here based upon the poll,and jointly work out to make corrective actions..

PS: Please stay foucssed on the poll results, and lets not deviate the topic..Thanks in advance

 

[palindrome]

Sapr333,

I voted for Lack of leadership, Lack of Unity among Hindus and Lack of knowledge among hindus about Hindu scriptures, Vedas and Upanishads.

I have few things to say. Since these points are not mentioned on the poll. Decline of hindusim in the practical sense can be attributed to the following:

1) Caste system and reservations:

If people want to stay brahmins by birth on paper alone, then there will also be dalits who will want to stay dalits based on birth alone (for the government benefits it brings). Where does that take people who are against the reservations system? What should people do if they want a system based on meritocracy with equal opportunities for all?

Nobody is bothered about what one wears, eats, follows what ritual and all such inane stuff. That is not gonna make anyone prosperous in anyway. When people get out of the house they want equal opportunities, that's all. They do not want to be told that you cannot get admission because you do not have a BC / MBC / OBC or whatever such certificates. And stand aside and watch someone with lower grades getting admission just because they have such a certificate to boot.

Naturally if someone cannot get admission, he will not mind converting to be a Christian if that brings him money to start a business. Please have a look at the number of conversions in Andhra Pradesh. They get projects for construction, IT, back office projects, transport facilities, etc much more easily if they belongto a particular christian group.

2) History and Hypocracy:

There is too much of history with too many claims. Communites have even written their own puranas, and propagated ridiculous ideas of their ancestor jumping out of fire and what not rubbish.

I have realized people do not like to be called Scheduled Tribe, yet they want the government benefits. The truth is that each and every one of us has originated as a caste from an admixture of those tribes (that we look down upon). Nobody jumped out of fire, irrespective of whethere one is a balija, vanniar or a rajput.

Let there be a consensus on how each caste got its so-called caste status. Get the government to institute a department that looks into caste claims alone.

Atleast if details of 50% of various communities that passed themselves off as kshatriya, brahmin, vaishya, dalit or whatever in the colonial times will come out, then the reservations system can be challenged. Middle aged and younger ones just cannot be bothered about social propriety or hollow 'status' based on crappy history.

This wud level the ground of all so-called castes. Reservations will be forced to reach the poorest of the poor. They will not find the need to convert either for social position or for economic necessity.

3) Reg my vote for: Lack of leadership, Lack of Unity among Hindus and Lack of knowledge among hindus about Hindu scriptures, Vedas and Upanishads.

Once the above 2 points are handled, leaders cannot talk politics based on caste.

Awareness will increase regarding what the scriptures say, both historically as well as metaphorically. We hindus will be forced to reject certain parts, which came as addition or interpolations as recent as the colonial times.

Missionaries cannot propagate falsified stories. When actual stories are known to people, they are empowered to question the missionaries. All of these eventually leads to unity among hindus as a hindu nation.

 

[sapr333]

Palindrome>>>I voted for Lack of leadership, Lack of Unity among Hindus >>

I can only blame Sankaracharyas on this. They failed to do the social engineering works. I would also add RSS in to this. None of their works were fruitful .


>>They do not want to be told that you cannot get admission because you do not have a BC / MBC / OBC>>

This is because of the social un-rest, and its not applicable to Brahmins alone, rather, no each one look down upon his next lower varna. And these reservation is all a political solution to handle this issue.

But had we ourselves recognised this in the past,discarded caste with the religious frame of mind, and set living eg, people like Periyar wouldnt have risen. Look at the west..When the Christians realised the pressure of Blacks, soon they rushed voluntarily with Affirmative actions. They openly admit the guil, called 'Black Guilt", unlike we, who yet to reconcile. They wrote 'Black Liberation Theology' based upon Bible. The Pope goes and kisses a black child, unfortunately, you can't expect this from Sankaracharya's,even if, they rush to go for a shower. No hollywood movie goes without black participation. British Ian Botham was banned in Cricket for playing in South Africa.These kind of social/emotional confidence was not given to the common public.

Like Abraham lincoln (white), Brahmins should have first lead the role to stop Untouchablity/Discrimination. And Brahmins being good administrative powers, they could have easily done this P.R Job.. Unfortunate, no one did that, rather failed to accept the mistakes of past, and the price is paid back through 'Reservations'.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Just because something is repeated all over the place for various political and other purposes, it does not become a fact.

Under the British colonial rule

1. The government openly and actively supported the conversion activities of christian missionaries.

2. Al relief funds and work were channeled through the Church.

3. The native rulers turned a blind eye in order to please their British masters.

4. These activities of the Christian church was never brought to the attention of the public as the press was also British controlled.

5. The Swadeshi Press was busy fighting for independence.

6. Hindus were totally in disarray. They had no organization to represent them.

Compare it with today's situation.

1. The government can not openly support them. It does not.

2. Relief funds and works are not routed through the church.

3. People are aware of these activities of the Church.

4. There a number of organizations like the Ramakrishna Mission, Chinmaya mission, Arya samaj and others who represent Hindus and who do counteract the activities of the Church. The number of organizations are growing every day.

5. We have a political party which is supposed to represent the Hindu view. And no political party has come out openly for conversion of Hindus.

So let us not be misled by people who predict Doomsday.

Hinduism is not on the decline. It is well and growing stronger day by day.

I am talking about the religion here and not the agenda of some of the exteremist elements.

 

[palindrome]

So now what is the solution? Should we let reservations stay?

I have noticed not only for brahmins, for other castes also, if their so-called position of belonging to a particualr caste is challenged, it annoys them. They don't like it. They don't like being compared to tribes. They can't accept it that they too were once part of those very tribes. They do not want to let go of their caste. Everyone seems to have a great deal of pride in their own 'caste'. Its the ego factor, i feel. Thankfully none of this applies to the middle aged and younger one who wud rather throw such things into the trash can. Surely there can be venues to overturn this caste based reservations thing. What are the possible solutions?

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Why should you eliminate the caste identity? Every caste has its own traditions and culture. They are justifiably proud of that. Your caste is your community. Common history, traditions, and culture.

The Tamil Brahmins have their own cuisine. Then there is the Chetti Nadu cuisine. The Mougalai cuisine. The ghee Biriyani of the Muslims of Tamil Nadu and Kerala. Every community has some special dish. Have you heard of Ankannan Kadai Biriyani in Coimbatore?

The same about the dress. The same Saree worn in different styles. The way you address people. I can go on.

Even religion. Castes have their favorite deities. Muthukaruppan, Maduarai Veeran, Raja Karuppanna Swamy, Masani Amman are as much Hindu deities as Shiva, Vishnu, or Devi.

We have to accept the tradition and culture of all the castes. Their Deities and form of worship.

What we are trying to end is discrimination based on castes. And someone thinking that he is superior because he is born into that caste.

 

[sapr333]

The government openly and actively supported the conversion activities of christian missionaries

Naachinarkinian,

The population of Christians in India was rougly 2% during the 1900 and continue to remain the same for long long time.. Its only in the last 2 decades, the growth has become explosive.
Kerala was already a highly Christianised state, and there is no recent growth there..

Its only in TN, AP, Orrisa & NE there is a tremendous growth.. One should not forget, in Philiphines/South Korea it only took 40 years for Christianity to raise from 4% 95% (Philiphines) and 30 yrs for south Korea from nothing to 45%. Go along any highways of T.N, you will find lot of newly popping up Churches.

Though no christian sites publicly claim about the 7% Christians in India, most of the hindu nationalistic sites give a clear cut picture about it.

 

[sapr333]

The Tamil Brahmins have their own cuisine. Then there is the Chetti Nadu cuisine. The Mougalai cuisine. The ghee Biriyani of the Muslims of Tamil Nadu and Kerala. Every community has some special dish.

This is exactly what Christianity is doing. They universalized the food habits and culture, there by made it universally acceptable/appealing to all. Btw, some of us called it as cultural invasion, but then there is some meaning in it.

 

[sapr333]

1. Lack of GOOD teachers and spiritual guides for one thing.

2. Hindus themselves have this notion that they will live forever, so the spiritual education is pushed to a later stage in life, like when they are old and about to croak.

I persume you have heard common riddicule such as "Oooi! you're so old?" and such when you read a spiritual book.

3. Lack of educational material. I live in a society where exists Hindus, Buddhist, Muslims and Christians who lives together and despite of Hindus doing well in various feild, I could hardly find any suitable books on Hindusm in libraries and bookstores.

Even in the Internet, there is not much information other than what you could get in basic levels. Most of the hindu sites speak of Conversion and nationalism..bit of hatred sites.


4. Interest in Hindus themselves seems to be declining (probably due to reason no.2 as well). When you have no interest, then you are a Hindu by name only.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Naachinarkinian,
Go along any highways of T.N, you will find lot of newly popping up Churches.

Though no christian sites publicly claim about the 7% Christians in India, most of the hindu nationalistic sites give a clear cut picture about it.

Oh! Those new churches. Earlier they could not afford to construct one. Now that they have become more prosperous, they are constructing new ones.

Hindu Nationalistic sites!! Those propaganda machines. As I said earlier I am only talking about the religion Hinduism.

South Korea and Philippines are a different kind of place. They do not have a strong religion like Hinduism.

In A.P I remember Guntur was always a big center of Christianity.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

This is exactly what Christianity is doing. They universalized the food habits and culture, there by made it universally acceptable/appealing to all. Btw, some of us called it as cultural invasion, but then there is some meaning in it.

I am proud of the Idli and Sambar that we Tamil Brahmins make. I really enjoy Aviyal and pal payasam.

India is a land of great diversities. Cultural, linguistic, and religious. We do not like the robotic culture of Uniformity. Unfortunately some people seem to think we should have uniformity. There are a lot of variations in the cultural, linguistic and food habits of the West. French cuisine, Italian cuisine etc. But if someone thinks introducing the fast food culture is going to improve us in any way they are wrong.

The great Indian civilization has survived because of all the diversities. Not in spite of it as some people think.

In an Election year some people think that shouting from the rooftop that "Hinduism is in Danger" will help them garner votes. But Indians are not fools. They can see through all this propaganda.

I remember the guy on the horse who keeps on shouting "The Russians are coming" at the end of the movie "The Russians are coming."

I have posted enough in this thread. So I will cease and desist.

 

[palindrome]

Same here. I think diversity is the backbone of our cultures. Even God does not like uniformity. So He makes a diversified nature. He diversifies Himself into various languages, thoughts, philosophies, cultures and so on. I do not think food and personal habits are any reason for conversions.

Am sort of still thinking that yes it is possible to lure people with money. And keep them there with promises of salvation within one life time, while at the same time providing freebies, goodies, a great network for business growth and social contacts for sense of belonging. When a man gets all of these, naturally he will sing praises of his new religion. Thank you.

 

[palindrome]

Sapr333,

In brown

Palindrome>>>I voted for Lack of leadership, Lack of Unity among Hindus >>

I can only blame Sankaracharyas on this. They failed to do the social engineering works. I would also add RSS in to this. None of their works were fruitful .

Why do you not blame the rich dalits? The OBCs are more rich than all shankaracharyas put together. RSS too is manned by other castes, how many brahmins do you have at all there?

Jayendra swami has interacted with and instituted programmes for the economically poor irrespective of caste. Pedda jeeyar swami constructed houses for harijans in the 1940s before the government was doing anything significant for the poor at all, shankaracharyas of dwaraka and shringeri are involved in programmes for the poor irrespective of caste..hope you wud not consciously overlook all that..

This is because of the social un-rest, and its not applicable to Brahmins alone, rather, no each one look down upon his next lower varna. And these reservation is all a political solution to handle this issue.

Who created this social unrest? Did it exist before the colonialists came to india? And how are reservations a solution to handle this issue" ?

But had we ourselves recognised this in the past,discarded caste with the religious frame of mind, and set living eg, people like Periyar wouldnt have risen. Look at the west..When the Christians realised the pressure of Blacks, soon they rushed voluntarily with Affirmative actions. They openly admit the guil, called 'Black Guilt", unlike we, who yet to reconcile. They wrote 'Black Liberation Theology' based upon Bible. The Pope goes and kisses a black child, unfortunately, you can't expect this from Sankaracharya's,even if, they rush to go for a shower. No hollywood movie goes without black participation. British Ian Botham was banned in Cricket for playing in South Africa.These kind of social/emotional confidence was not given to the common public.

Like Abraham lincoln (white), Brahmins should have first lead the role to stop Untouchablity/Discrimination. And Brahmins being good administrative powers, they could have easily done this P.R Job.. Unfortunate, no one did that, rather failed to accept the mistakes of past, and the price is paid back through 'Reservations'.

Not sure why are you comparing the blacks and racism issues with caste system...there is a huge diff b/w racism and caste..hope you will please read more in detail abt the caste system as your words are so very like a typical jesuist missionary of non-indian origin (though the concept of absolute holiness, justice, etc is a very muslim doctrinal concept too)..

and for heaven's sake brahmins are not white..they are indian and come in various shades of brown..and they did lead the role in stopping untouchability - when pedda jeeyar swami garu gave away all his wealth to the harijans, how many rich ppl of other castes were interested in joining him...ever heard of how Rajaji was inspired to write Kurai Onrum Illai. If not, please read here: http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/mag/2002/12/22/stories/2002122200220100.htm

Even today look at papers that talk abt ppl banning temple entry - who is doing the temple bans..in a recent newspaper article it was the Konars, where are the brahmins in the pic there..

...and again why do you say a price is being paid back thru reservations?

 

[s007bala]

re

palindrome,thats awesome analysis.good work.sapr333,hang around here we will convert you rofl .

sb

 

[malgova.mango]

Just because something is repeated all over the place for various political and other purposes, it does not become a fact.

Under the British colonial rule

1. The government openly and actively supported the conversion activities of christian missionaries.

2. Al relief funds and work were channeled through the Church.

3. The native rulers turned a blind eye in order to please their British masters.

4. These activities of the Christian church was never brought to the attention of the public as the press was also British controlled.

5. The Swadeshi Press was busy fighting for independence.

6. Hindus were totally in disarray. They had no organization to represent them.

Compare it with today's situation.

1. The government can not openly support them. It does not.

2. Relief funds and works are not routed through the church.

3. People are aware of these activities of the Church.

4. There a number of organizations like the Ramakrishna Mission, Chinmaya mission, Arya samaj and others who represent Hindus and who do counteract the activities of the Church. The number of organizations are growing every day.

5. We have a political party which is supposed to represent the Hindu view. And no political party has come out openly for conversion of Hindus.

So let us not be misled by people who predict Doomsday.

Hinduism is not on the decline. It is well and growing stronger day by day.

I am talking about the religion here and not the agenda of some of the exteremist elements.

Well SAID NACHHI!

 

[s007bala]

re

Its a widely accepted fact, that Hinduism is on the decline (may be towards slow death).. Lets choose the one which we feel right out of the 12 category.

what fact?

Im just trying to figure out the core cause, in order to make us aware what the core issues are.

stop wasting time.

Nothing to discuss as a thread... Let take the opion, and lets discuss here based upon the poll,and jointly work out to make corrective actions..

PS: Please stay foucssed on the poll results, and lets not deviate the topic..Thanks in advance

if you open your mind ,thats enuff
sb

 

[sapr333]

Poll results say, 'Lack Of Unity Among Hindus'...

Any take on this?

 

[sapr333]

Palindrome>>.ever heard of how Rajaji was inspired to write Kurai Onrum Illai.>>>

Just cuirous to heard this song in M.S' voice.. I tried in internet, but couldnt find any mp3 online.. Could you pls help me out. Thanks in advance.

 

[palindrome]

please try: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKdHPCw3K9c&feature=channel_page

 

[sapr333]

Thanks Palindrome...Thats indeed stunning with the mesmerizing voice of M.S with right pitch in Ragamalika.

 

[KRS]

sapr333,

I am taking the liberty of discussing this thread even though you have instructed otherwise. I just went through the thread, read some excellent postings, but would like to address some specific issues leaping out of this thread's intent and content.

1. First of all, where do you get your fact on 'Hinduism is dying' or 'slowly dying'? Is there a statistics or data point you can cite? By the way, I have not participated in both of your polls in this Forum because your question itself is a red-herring (in my opinion).

2, After reading your posts, I did some research on your handle. You have been posting under the same handle for a while now, especially under Outlook magazine's discusiion threads as well as one Valan's weblog. You seem to be a born Christian and if you are not from your postings it is clear that you hold Christianity in very high estemm over Hinduism and Islam.

3. You make especially uneducated comments about Adi Shankara without any depth of study and repeat what some others have said without validation. One of this was that he was directly responsible for exterminating Buddhism from India. This oft repeated story has no scientific foundation. (If you want I am prepared to enter in to a deep discussion on why Buddhism disappeared from India for a long period, based on a full critical historical view).

4. You are generally against what you call as 'Brahminism' and Brahmins.

I can cite direct quotes from you on each of my statements above.

Now, do I hold these statements against you that I do not want you to post here anymore? No, on the contrary I welcome you here as a guest as a member of the TG community to discuss and get educated on our culture and our religion.

But this is my question:

What is your intent on posting these polls? Is it to 'reform' Hinduism? Is it to 'show' us why our religion is supposedly dying? Or is it because you can share the findings elsewhere as a 'proof' that Hinduism is declining?

Sir, if you are doing this with the welfare of Hindus in your heart, they will not accept it as you are an outsider. No group can be 'reformed' by an outsider.

But on the contrary, if you are asking these questions with something other than the welfare of us in your heart, then shame on you.

You are our guest and TBs are famous for our hospitality. Some of us may be too haughty (like some others in other Forums you have posted), but please do not abuse our welcome. As you ask others, 'please have an open mind and ponder'.

I thought it is important for you to understand this.

By the way, I saw your postings about 'Why I am not a Hindu' in other places as well. Seems to me this is your way of showing the 'bad' side of Hinduism. Your comment elsewhere that 'if you ask a Hindu about 'social problems', his answer would be that 'it is a way of life', tells me how you look at this issue. As I have said, I am about to finish reading this book and we can have a thorough conversation about the merits of its content soon, if you wish.

Regards,
KRS

Its a widely accepted fact, that Hinduism is on the decline (may be towards slow death).. Lets choose the one which we feel right out of the 12 category.

Im just trying to figure out the core cause, in order to make us aware what the core issues are.

Nothing to discuss as a thread... Let take the opion, and lets discuss here based upon the poll,and jointly work out to make corrective actions..

PS: Please stay foucssed on the poll results, and lets not deviate the topic..Thanks in advance

 

[sapr333]

My response in Red

sapr333,

>>>>I am taking the liberty of discussing this thread even though you have instructed otherwise. I just went through the thread, read some excellent postings, but would like to address some specific issues leaping out of this thread's intent and content.>>>>

Frankly, I just opted this only for survery reasons.. Anyways, cos You have written a long post, I thought to take an exemption to respond to you.. Btw, I really enjoyed your well balanced responses in another posts.. And I appreciate your views too..

>>>>>1. First of all, where do you get your fact on 'Hinduism is dying' or 'slowly dying'? Is there a statistics or data point you can cite? >>

A common sense would do.. Hindustan of ancient times, is now falling short of 15% hindu population, according to 1992 census...

>>>>>2, After reading your posts, I did some research on your handle. You have been posting under the same handle for a while now, especially under Outlook magazine's discusiion threads as well as one Valan's weblog. You seem to be a born Christian and if you are not from your postings it is clear that you hold Christianity in very high estemm over Hinduism and Islam.>>>

You are free to persume what I am... But I'm on the search of 'Ultimate Truth about God''... Thats one reason, I liked this site, rather enjoyed this place, though its a short stint.. I have been hanging on different sites, including Jewish/Aetheist ones, with different handle names.. Virutual world right!!... But my objective is real, not virtual.. Pursuit of God.

>>>>>3. You make especially uneducated comments about Adi Shankara without any depth of study and repeat what some others have said without validation. One of this was that he was directly responsible for exterminating Buddhism from India. This oft repeated story has no scientific foundation. (If you want I am prepared to enter in to a deep discussion on why Buddhism disappeared from India for a long period, based on a full critical historical view)>>>


Contrarily, I have also enjoyed some of the finest debates of Adi Shankara.. Im not sure if you know, he is the only person, who first comprehended the Concept of God, logically.. Regarding the history of extermination of Buddhists, Yes, we can have a debate on this..

Btw, you calling me uneducated, I would love to remain humble and humiliated.. Im ok with that.. no comments on that


>>>4. You are generally against what you call as 'Brahminism' and Brahmins.>>>

Please read my blog on 'Are Tamil Brahmins not Tamils... You will know.. Yes, I'm against certain 'Isms', and this could be one among"


>>>>Now, do I hold these statements against you that I do not want you to post here anymore? >>>

We are just airing our views in this virtual world of internet.. There is noting personal.... By saying "Fire", our tongues wont get burnt right!!! Lets take it easy!!




>>>>What is your intent on posting these polls? Is it to 'reform' Hinduism? Is it to 'show' us why our religion is supposedly dying? Or is it because you can share the findings elsewhere as a 'proof' that Hinduism is declining?>>>

Btw, before that, have you cast your vote on this poll? Just curious!!

>>>>>Sir, if you are doing this with the welfare of Hindus in your heart, they will not accept it as you are an outsider. No group can be 'reformed' by an outsider.>>>

So you mean to say, Hinduism doesnt accept Comments??? If so, I think, you dont know much about Hinduism? Remeber, Hinduism has even accepted Chavarkas, which denied even the concept of God...


>>>>You are our guest and TBs are famous for our hospitality. Some of us may be too haughty (like some others in other Forums you have posted), but please do not abuse our welcome. As you ask others, 'please have an open mind and ponder'>>>

Once again please go through my blog... I have appreciations towards the hospitality, while narrating my Train journey a decade ago.

.

>>>>>By the way, I saw your postings about 'Why I am not a Hindu' in other places as well. Seems to me this is your way of showing the 'bad' side of Hinduism. >>>

So you want me to tread only in line with your thoughts? And you are casting me a bad boy, just because I shared opposite views?..

Please finish that book, lets engage in a dialogue (not fight it over!)..Lets learn something out by sharing contradictory views.. Thanks

Regards,
KRS

ll

 

[KRS]

sapr333,
My response is in 'blue'.

Frankly, I just opted this only for survery reasons.. Anyways, cos You have written a long post, I thought to take an exemption to respond to you.. Btw, I really enjoyed your well balanced responses in another posts.. And I appreciate your views too..
Same here about your postings. I saw at the end of the survey you have addressed this Forum that based on the outcome of the survey 'we will jointly' figure out solutions. This is what prompted me to write.

A common sense would do.. Hindustan of ancient times, is now falling short of 15% hindu population, according to 1992 census...
You mean 85% of the population? In India, the total numbers have been growing at around 20%. Common sense should tell you Hinduism is 'dying slowly', only if high numbers of present day Hindus leave the religion voluntarily. You can not connect a population growth rates of different religions and say just because one religious group is less fertile they are 'dying'. I think your 'commen sensical' analysis is faulty and wrong.

You are free to persume what I am... But I'm on the search of 'Ultimate Truth about God''... Thats one reason, I liked this site, rather enjoyed this place, though its a short stint.. I have been hanging on different sites, including Jewish/Aetheist ones, with different handle names.. Virutual world right!!... But my objective is real, not virtual.. Pursuit of God.
Yes, I actually do not care what is your preferred religion. But I have seen you not looking at Hinduism and Islam in particularly good light. This issue only is raised because without understanding the Brahmin culture you have made statements both here and other Forums that to me seem to be lacking any empathy that comes from understanding a culture. For example, I will never ever casually say derogatory things about someone else's religious theology or Gods/Saints. Yet you make such comments about Adi Shankara, Lord Rama and Mohammed in your postings. This shows me that you do not have any empathy with the Hindu clulture (or Muslim for that matter).

Contrarily, I have also enjoyed some of the finest debates of Adi Shankara.. Im not sure if you know, he is the only person, who first comprehended the Concept of God, logically.. Regarding the history of extermination of Buddhists, Yes, we can have a debate on this..

Btw, you calling me uneducated, I would love to remain humble and humiliated.. Im ok with that.. no comments on that
Let me quote from some of your postings about Hinduism and Adi Shankara from elsewhere:"Its very obvious, when confronted with questions on social aspects, Hindus’ would find shelter in ‘Way OFF Life”.. And when you dig “Way of life” philosphically/theologically, one would take shelter in ‘MAYA’(you have to google about it).. MAYA , and illusion, or Hallucination, which is widely accepted in Hindu Scriptures that god Shiva was hallucinated by marijuana, like our Rishi’s of Himalayas..The point here is Hinduism is complex(not on positive note).. rather its confused, dying to patch the pot holes,when questioned.."
"Shankara, possibly, Adi Sankar too would have twisted the facts like you and got an oppportunity to exterminated buddhism".
"No king will invade a land with an invitation on hand… And India is neither your father’s property nor any Hindu’s property. Its a vast land once inhibited by Dravidians.. Later invaded by Barbaric Aryan Brahmins and subsequently many followed the suit.

If not for Rama, india would have been a great Dravidian country.
If not for Rama, Babri Masjid would’nt have got demolished."

These are your words. This is why I am very concerned whether you have the best interests of Hinduism and our theological principles in your heart.

Now, I am not calling you uneducated - obviously you have an engineering degree and well educated. I am calling your views as posted above as uneducated. Maya in Advaitha philosophy is not just 'illusion or hallucination'. This is an uneducated view, because you obviously have not understood the theology behind Advaitha. When you say what you say about Sri Adi Shankara as above, this shows a lack of education about him.

Please read my blog on 'Are Tamil Brahmins not Tamils... You will know.. Yes, I'm against certain 'Isms', and this could be one among"
No sir - you directly insult Brahmins as 'fat', like Kancha does. This is not against any 'ism'.

We are just airing our views in this virtual world of internet.. There is noting personal.... By saying "Fire", our tongues wont get burnt right!!! Lets take it easy!!
Yes, there is nothing personal. But this Forum was created to promote the interests of the TB community. And if you feel that you are doing that, as I have said, you are welcome!

Btw, before that, have you cast your vote on this poll? Just curious!!
As I have said in my previous posting, no, I have no intention of voting because I think it is a red-herring.

So you mean to say, Hinduism doesnt accept Comments??? If so, I think, you dont know much about Hinduism? Remeber, Hinduism has even accepted Chavarkas, which denied even the concept of God...
Sir, Hinduism is the only religion that has examined all philosophies under the sun. We had people of science saying that the earth revolved around the sun long before the Christian church was eliminating those who would say such things. So, please.

My import was that argue with us showing who you are. Without our welfare in your heart don't do 'stealth' attacks. This is what I meant. If you are doing that, then it is okay. Even then we will always be cordial and debate as we are doing.

Once again please go through my blog... I have appreciations towards the hospitality, while narrating my Train journey a decade ago.
Yes, but I see a disconnect between what you are saying here and what you have posted elsewhere. But still, we welcome you.

So you want me to tread only in line with your thoughts? And you are casting me a bad boy, just because I shared opposite views?..

Please finish that book, lets engage in a dialogue (not fight it over!)..Lets learn something out by sharing contradictory views.. Thanks
No,it is okay to have contradictory views. But I think that it is not gentlemanly to say things without giving others a view of what is your religious background is. How you grew up bears on who you are today. You are saying 'I am a seeker of God'. yet you have posted views that belie that. You talk about my religion (although one can see your education and grasp are limited) as though you are a Hindu. This is my concern about you.

I will never call you a 'bad boy'. A 'stealthy person' may be!

Regards,
KRS

 

[happyhindu]

<<No king will invade a land with an invitation on hand… And India is neither your father’s property nor any Hindu’s property. Its a vast land once inhibited by Dravidians.. Later invaded by Barbaric Aryan Brahmins and subsequently many followed the suit.>>

Sapr,

Just one clarification from my end just in case you have not come across the right info by now:

The ones who merged in (i do not use the word invaded, since there was no invasion) were not brahmins.

Vedic cultures were developed within this land. Hinduism with its vast diversity belongs to this land. The aryan brahmins were local.

The ones that merged into the local aryan culture were the warring tribes or the ones that wud fit into the mold of vratya kshatriyas, but parts of whom who later passed themselves off as vedic kshatriyas.

Lets put it this way, the local cultures tried their best to detter the vratya warriors, with seemingly various scriptural injunctions and all, but admixture could not be prevented. This to a section of population genetists cud have been the previous caste system.

Now the whole point it this. No one knows who the vedic brahmanas were. The entire indian population is an admixture of various tribes at varying levels. Most populations are region-specific, not caste-specific. However, most populations are not entirely distict from tribal populations. This shows that older cultures were carried over into the new caste system.

The fact that each community has its own version of history, even own puranas, to describe their origin, can shed some light on their migratory patterns. Most of these stories were concocted by people who wanted to justify their change in occupation in a hindu society. When the society was already changed, the brahmin only played suit and went along with it.

And just like there is a section of brahmins who think they existed from time immemorial, there are non-brahmin cultures too that think they existed from time immeorial. Each culture likes to adopt a puritanical attitude.

Reg the other points, i think i already put in some inputs in the logic and perception thread abt maya (maya is not an illusory illusion, and i did write abt how reality got established by logic). And when Sri Adi Shankara reestablished hindu religion, buddhism had already dwindled. And Rama had nothing to do with the aryan-dravidian thing. Aryan and dravidian are only lingusitic groups, not ethnically and genetically different from one another, and all this so-called linguistic differences are a recent phenomenon, thanks to the colonialists.

 

[sapr333]

KRS, its very interesting that you brought in cut & paste from different threads. Thats the crowd out there, in that site, and their level of understanding..Naturally one tend to stoop down, and Im not an exception.

btw, dont polarise a person just by his views.. There is nothing wrong in sharing contradictory views.

Let me be frank here..Just by saying, FIRE not gonna burn our tongues. For eg, I was hanging on that site (3months),whose owner claimes himself as Konkani Brahmin, and wants to incite hindus and make them as Nationalistic hindus with the glorification of Naturam Godse. Definitely, I have to pay back in his own language, as the crowds were not of the same.. But even there, I found a good person, who could share some good spiritual/philosophical views (though Opposite),so I invited him to move to other site. Soon I exited that site, and found this site (TB)interesting , knowledgeable and above all, pretty nice crowd with good forum etiquettes..

I remember sharing an amazing 2000+ intersting debate,rather dialogue with Prof..V.Seshadri 2 yrs ago, with totally opposing views but very very healthy informative discussion..I dont know what ID I used with him , but will dig out and let you know.. You will realize my quest there.. btw, He was really an intellect in hidu literature, at the age of 74..Retired prof IIT, Madras, Electrical Engg. The time I reach home, first thing I do is to look for his response.Such an addiction I had over his posts.I remember,he was not in good health and his eye sight was going bad too and not to be seen in forums now a days.. Wish he has a long life..Any one who got any info, please let me know..

Btw, I used to hang out in different variety of forums (religious/social/philosophical) with different ID's, and I always take an opposite stand.. Yes, thats the only way to gather info.. Is there any use in debating, If I we both share the same view.

Regarding Adi Shankara, I have equally and enjoyed many of his debates and writings.. Esp, after joining here.. many of the people shared some links here. Equally I have an opposing view about his history of 'Extermination of Buddhists ', same like what I have for Kancha's writing... You may have some better idea on this..Lets share it out, than getting emotional about it..


Yes, I had a lot of debate in few other threads about MAYA too..Frankly, in most of the threads, when I ask doubts, people get in to abusing mode, or retaliatory mode, than trying to answer it. And soon I also get tensed up and return it back (its wrong too)... Having said that, there are some interesting discussion we had in this site about MAYA/Logic/Perception, which I never knew it before.. Thanks to Happy Hindu, and esp Seshadri Subramoniam who share totally opposite view of mine,but then it was truly interesting and healthy..

Having said that, all debates are for knowledge sharing and gathering.. Lets not polarise it based on persons... Lets not guage the views based on previous views/statement, unless we are all in a closed mindset. As day goes by thought patterns could change.. Its applicable to both you and me..

>>>But I think that it is not gentlemanly to say things without giving others a view of what is your religious background is>>

Trust me, this is the most sick thing.. ie, you wish to evaluate a person's knowledge based upon his religion, not upon his posts/views/ideas...I can change a religion in an hour, but my views remain the same right!! Now pls dont ask me what caste you belong or what mother tongue you speak..., cos they cant be changed... Lets give value to the statements, than getting emotional and personal..

PS:Apologize, I was bit harsh in my words..Sorry!!