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aryan and dravidians

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IS there two races aryan(punjabi fair looking ) and dravidians
because they dosent look like us or its a myth

People in India belong to different races, and this has nothing to do with AIT. Indians are a mixture of everything. Punjabis are white, Maratis brown, Tamils black, and so forth.:thumb: It'd be foolish not to recognize these obvious differences. But that doesn't mean these differences should get in the way of peace and harmony.
 
What is your problem Mr.Maruthi?

Maruthi Sir,

Earlier you wrote:

[I didn't know us Brahmins were fair-skinned. Most Brahmins have the same complexion, as do our 'dark brothers.' Aside from very few, Brahmins are almost as dark as dravids, thus distinct from Northies who have a lighter color because they were raped by muslims/turks and the rest for thousand years.]

And now you write:

[People in India belong to different races, and this has nothing to do with AIT. Indians are a mixture of everything. Punjabis are white, Maratis brown, Tamils black, and so forth. It'd be foolish not to recognize these obvious differences. But that doesn't mean these differences should get in the way of peace and harmony.]

Most tamil Brahmins are lighter color skinned. Do you mean to say they belong to the thousand years raped by muslims/turks ?

What is your color problem and what is your confusion now?
 
Namaskara,

Maruthi Sir,
Do you mean to say they belong to the thousand years raped by muslims/turks ?

No, because most Tamil Brahmins are dark-skinned. I said dark skin was pretty uniform save the ones that were violated for a thousand years. Where's the contradiction?
 
"""""Do you mean to say they belong to the thousand years raped by muslims/turks ?""""

but in history of north india it not claimed any where
 
There is an old Hindi/Urdu saying which says all battles are fought only for three reasons - Zar (wealth), Zoru (woman) and Zamin (Land). The landmass we know as India now has traditionally been invaded for thousands of years by various races including greeks, kushans, parthians, caucasians, mongols, Arabs, Iranians, celts and what not. These races were not inhenretly Indian but originated elsewhere.

Every successful invador/conquerer plundered the wealth of India and either settled down here itself or left his genetic seeds in India. Calling it 'Rape' is not right, since the word in its present legal context did not exist till the advent of common law system introduced by the british. Prior to that, the victor/conqueror always exercised his right of first call on wealth and woman of the conquered territory and the consent be damned.

This mixing of bloods of various races has also been supplemented by traders , nomads and seamen from every other possible human settlement from rest of thew world.

This has resulted in today's Indian population becoming a a mix of various ethnic races including extremely dark skinned Adi-Dravidas in south, Australoids and Negritos of Andamans and others (may be dravidians) in various tribal settlements in central india, chota nagpur, bastar, jharkhand etc., extrmely fair complexioned people are found in Mangalore, parts of Kerela (offsprings of amorous seamen?) and Kashmir, Panjab area (invadors settled in Indo Gangetic plains and Doab zone), Mongols in North East etc.

If we honestly admit to ourselves, none of us Indians are of pure blood origins. We have mix blood from several races. So talks of brahmins being fair, fair being superior to dark, NBs being inferior since they are dark etc. is extremely silly stereotyping and has no scientific corroboration.
 
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Vanthuttangayya, vanthuttanga.

All men came from monkeys.
All monkey came from something more primitive.
All primitive came from something more primitive.
....
...
...
...
All are made of atoms
All atoms are made of particle.
All particles are made of sub particles.
All particles are basically energy or particles.
All is energy, which sometimes manifests as energy or as particles- apparent appearence of duality of an ultimate reality.
All energy projects itself on its own manifestations, leading to the concept of maya.. there is no seer or seen...its all the same( this one is from Ramana or JK.. )
Aryan or dravidian..its all the same sh** sorry the same energy.
 
All are energy -- All are same agreed-- So there should be no reservation!!!

All men came from monkeys.
All monkey came from something more primitive.
All primitive came from something more primitive.
....
...
...
...
All are made of atoms
All atoms are made of particle.
All particles are made of sub particles.
All particles are basically energy or particles.
All is energy, which sometimes manifests as energy or as particles- apparent appearence of duality of an ultimate reality.
All energy projects itself on its own manifestations, leading to the concept of maya.. there is no seer or seen...its all the same( this one is from Ramana or JK.. )
Aryan or dravidian..its all the same sh** sorry the same energy.



OFCOURSE ALL ARE ENERGY ALL ARE SAME. SO THERE SHOULD BE NO RESERVATION BASED ON CASTE, RELIGION OR RACE
icon7.gif

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING !!!
 
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Please check my post on the scientific research on the Aryan Dravidian question with refrence to Tambrahms` in the Gerneral discussions thread
 
Maruti, what are you implying by saying Tamil Brahmins are mostly dark and those that are fair have been violated? I take personal offense to your words. My family tree dates back 16 generations that I can get my hand around and all of them have married within the Tamil Brahmin community including me.

One of my ancestors 5 generations ago was deemed to be so good that his idol was made and erected in Melkotae temple. My great-grandfather was a close friend for Vivekananda and his name has been mentioned in Vivekananda's biography. We have not seen any "rape" or violation that you so loosly say.

The matter of fact is that you are under-read about the culmination or formation of Brahmins. I am a Mandayam Iyengar, so if you want to know more about our community and when it was formed and how, I suggest you better read before you mouth-off such nonsense on a public forum. :director:

http://www.mandyam.com/Origin.htm

Ignorance befalls a man/woman.

-GGR
 
Maruti, what are you implying by saying Tamil Brahmins are mostly dark

It means they are not fair.:rofl:

History reveals that India has been invaded repeatedly. And a conquered race normally goes through a lot of suffering, they're subject to slavery and the rest. Men are used for labor and women for pleasure. That's the reason for fair-skinned people in a predominantly dark-skinned India.

I don't see how this is insulting to you or to anyone else, for that matter. History cannot be changed, facts cannot be altered. Based on these facts, this is the only conclusion you come to.:D
 
I belong to an Iyer family. We have a concept of gotra – which means we trace our lineage from a rishi. So I am a direct descendent of that rishi I can assure , taking this as one of the proofs that none left in our lineage was violated. As per the practice in the olden days in the patriarchal society if anyone was violated she would have been taken into the violators group or died on her own and thus would be no more part of the group she was born into. So my lineage traces from this particular rishi and there is none left in this lineage who was violated(if it did happen).

As far the complexion, it is because these rishis were fair in complexion . But their progenies when they came to south and TN took the local women as wives and thus the genes mixed. Hence you see a spectrum of complexion not jsut fair among the brahmins of TN and elsewhere.The local women an their family voluntarily chose these rishis without any external inducements. Because they knew that these progenies form the rishis had a high culture and knowledge and wisdom. (There was a genetic study which shows indina upper caste men are more European like and women are more asian like).
But the paternal lineage is from the rishi. I am sure that is the case with al the Brahmins who still know their gotras and hence I agree with you Rajiv. Just like your family mine was not violated.

But in this forum a lot of mischief mongers form other communities have gotten in and their only motive is to denigrate Brahmins , to see to it that they are not united and are not made proud of their ancestors. So pl watch out for these idiotic morons. They may be used to getting abused and violated and may be liking it in a masochistic way. But not us.
These morons also want to suck up the time and energy of Brahmins by engaging them in meaningless discussions. So just ignore them. It is a pity that the forum and some members in the forum give these people so much cheap publicity.
 
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Patrilineal origins

While it is of course debatable whether identifying with a patrilineal or matrilineal ancestor is the best way of tracing one's ancestry, the patrilineal gotra system has been so for thousands for years in our Vedic civilization.

I remember my grandfather saying we migrated from the Kanyakubja region of UP as Brahmanas many generations ago. This was after Adi Sankara's time, and we apparently switched to the Advaita Yajur (Iyer) branch during the migration. This must have coincided with the Islamic invasions of central India. The Vijayanagara kingdom offered shelter to those fleeing the invasions and they also needed priests for the classical revival that was taking place during that time.

I feel this is the reason that Brahmanas should never forget they are Hindus, and their history, and ignore silly suggestions of converting to Christianity. All castes lived in harmony and helped each other for thousands of years, even during many internal migrations and conflicts. Dalits were the only ones who suffered oppression, and I am glad that they have been given constitutional protections now. We should look for a solution within the Hindu fold, and ignore all this Aryan/Dravidian crap. It is mostly in TN that this virulent KKK fascist party-sponsored hatred exists, and they are spreading this venom all over India with long-dead bigot Max Mueller as their messiah. Shame on them. I have never felt alienated in the rest of India, only in TN.

Others trying to drive a wedge by suggesting Brahmanas should convert to Christianity are either honestly unaware of the history of our Vedic civilization, or may have ulterior motives.
 
kashyap,
It is quite possible that many of the rishis were fair skinned and they married outside their groups.But it is quite possible,and it has been so suggested by DD Kosambi,an indologist of yester years,who himself was a maharashtrian chitpawan brahmana,that some of the rishis were indigenous,who were the leaders of local people and they could have been dark skinned.There was a ceremony called 'vratashroma' in later years,by which others could be admitted to the fold of brahmanas.This view has been endorsed by kspv in this site.In fact,i thought,suresh sir was also hinting at this.

In fact,the average tamil brahmana is dark skinned compared to a brahmana from karnataka/maharashtra.In fact the fairest ones are found in kashmir.

And the average vadakalai iyengar is fair skinned compared to the average iyer/tenkalai iyengar.

Kosambi once remarked that he was relatively dark skinned compared to an averge chitpawan brahman.And this caused him some anguish.Perhaps,if one doesnt do anything worthwhile,these things loom large in one's consciousness.

And there is the view "agathin azagu mugathil theriyum" ie anushtanam,purity of heart makes one glow externally.

or one can hold the view that 'pura thuymai/niram' has little value compared to aha thuymai/anbu vide valluvar.
 
Reading through what Lotus_quartz and Maruti are writing, I will not dignify their posts with any reply as they seem to be under-read about the facts of life and the rules of war in those days, prior to the British invasion. They seem to have confused or adopted the theory genghis Khan to India.

As Mrifan suggests, there are elements in this forum, who would love to play with our minds just to get a high out of us, this is nothing but sadistic satisfaction some people who are very unhappy in their life do. If possible, we should weed out those elements from this forum, if not it will deter others from posting in this forum, thus giving into the main reason for these elements to get on this forum.

-GGR
 
sirs - the favourite 'discovery' of 'rationalists' is that bramins invaded india and tortured dravidians and pushed them into a corner of south india. but the question is what sort of torture? did bramins rape dravidians? after all no invader would spare local women. if that is the case, does that mean many of present day dravids (including 'rationalists') have bramin blood in their body? thus if the 'aryan' invasion theory is to be believed, it is dravids who may have to go on the defensive!
 
I am amused to note the simplistic explanation of the 'facts of life' and 'rules of war' etc. understood by you. I respect your right to hold such opinion.

Please be a sport. When confronted with divergent views, be gracious enough to ponder and come back with better facts and explanations. There is no need to jump to the conclusions and infer that people are out to get at you with 'sadistic' intentions etc.

FYKI, I am neither dark complexioned nor a non-B. I too happen to be a 'pucca iyer' and one who had the opportunity of getting educated at the finest institutions in India (including IIT, IIM, IAT, Administrative Staff College of India etc. ) and serving the country in my capacity as Class - I officer in Govt. of India. It is an altogether different matter that I do not go around tom-tomming about it.

I could visit great many places in India, interact with people of diverse backgrounds and study the historical, ethnological and sociological setup of people and society from close quarters. My inference comes from more than two decades of being a student of contemporary India from 'inside' and not as a theoretician from outside.

Hope the 'record stands corrected' , with relevant portions expunged.



Reading through what Lotus_quartz and Maruti are writing, I will not dignify their posts with any reply as they seem to be under-read about the facts of life and the rules of war in those days, prior to the British invasion. They seem to have confused or adopted the theory genghis Khan to India.

As Mrifan suggests, there are elements in this forum, who would love to play with our minds just to get a high out of us, this is nothing but sadistic satisfaction some people who are very unhappy in their life do. If possible, we should weed out those elements from this forum, if not it will deter others from posting in this forum, thus giving into the main reason for these elements to get on this forum.

-GGR
 
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Mr Murali,

I never attached any value to external complexion.

The point which I am making is why should I accept someone telling that the prevalence of fair complexion among Brahmins is only due to violation by invaders from outside?
How can such an allegation be made without any proof?

For me one of the important proofs I have in my family is my gotra which has been handed down for centuries without any break. It means I descended from the rishi. So is my matrilineal line. I firmly believe in these. I will stand by my belief.

Comment was made about how women were treated as a commodity in medieval times and how conquerors used to take women away. Even if it is true, those women were taken away as a commodity by invaders and are no longer in our community and so how can the fairness in complexion among some of our community be attributed to invader’s genes?

I can speak for my family and immediate family and I see no traces of invader’s genes in them. I am sure that is the case with all in our community. If someone can show a particular example of his immediate family where the fairness in complexion is due to violation then he is welcome to do so.

Hope you understand this point.
 
To Maruti

Maruti,

Your posts starting from #2 on this thread are provocative and they do not offer any concrete evidence.

You also do not consider other factors that might have played a role such as the weather. It is much hotter in south india than it is in north india and we have been facing steady deforestation. Moreover the occupations of Brahmins have been changing from a scenario where they were indoors most of the time to a scenario where they exposed to the sun often owing to the nature of the job.

Is your argument technically possible? Perhaps. But given the rigidity of almost all Indian castes about the "purity" of women we really do not know how such issues were dealt with.

We have to work with the best knowledge we have, i.e., we believe that such mishaps were dealt with by our ancestors in such a way as to maintain the 'purity' of the lineage.

If you want us to believe otherwise please go to a library nearby, look at books and other sources that might suggest evidence to the contrary, come back and enlighten us. THAT would be a responsible way of changing beliefs.
 
On Warnings on Deterrents

Kashyap,

Your repeated comments along these lines have been noticed and registered. There is one thing I'd like to make clear about communicating in a public forum. There WILL be people who do not subscribe to your views. You are REQUIRED to stand up to them through sound resoning and argument. Simply because someone says something that is not to your liking please do not expect the administrators to ban that user from posting.

Every poster shall be evaluated on the MERIT of their ARGUMENTS. We are an evolving community and we need new ideas. Sometimes some of our best ideas come from our worst critics. Ever since Adi Shankara's times debates and dialogues have always been characteristic of the Hindu (and of course Brahminical) way of thinking. So I don't see why we should be any different.

Your warnings and caveats are appreciated but you are required to think through issues and develop your own reasoning. Some of the ideas may be uncomfortable but you need to evaluate them impartially. These are individual critical thinking skills that every responsible poster to this forum should strive for - because if you sharpen your thinking skills you will be helping the community immensely through your carefully-considered contributions.

But in this forum a lot of mischief mongers form other communities have gotten in and their only motive is to denigrate Brahmins , to see to it that they are not united and are not made proud of their ancestors...It is a pity that the forum and some members in the forum give these people so much cheap publicity.
 
Suggestion

I am glad to see open views such as this one.

May I suggest a way of dealing with offensive postings? Ask the appropriate poster for clarification, evidence, check it with your own reasoning and probe more and more.

This will achieve two things - (1) It will discourage non-serious thinkers from coming here (2) If there are such posters with an "anti-community" feeling they will get weeded out in a natural way.

The important point is to remain unflustered but respond with reasoning.


Reading through what Lotus_quartz and Maruti are writing, I will not dignify their posts with any reply as they seem to be under-read about the facts of life and the rules of war in those days, prior to the British invasion. They seem to have confused or adopted the theory genghis Khan to India.

As Mrifan suggests, there are elements in this forum, who would love to play with our minds just to get a high out of us, this is nothing but sadistic satisfaction some people who are very unhappy in their life do. If possible, we should weed out those elements from this forum, if not it will deter others from posting in this forum, thus giving into the main reason for these elements to get on this forum.

-GGR
 
sirs - the important point here is that,the aryan invasion theory is an inference of some persons. how can inferences be allowed to be published in official, govt. school & college text books? by this logic, tomorrow some govt. could publish in text books about the alleged sexual escapades of jawaharlal nehru also!
 
It is all about priorities

Kashyap,
There is one thing I'd like to make clear about communicating in a public forum. There WILL be people who do not subscribe to your views. You are REQUIRED to stand up to them through sound resoning and argument. Simply because someone says something that is not to your liking please do not expect the administrators to ban that user from posting.

Some of the ideas may be uncomfortable but you need to evaluate them impartially.
I take your points in the right way as I always believe in improvingà
.learningàimproving cycle.

However, I will state that I have always stood my ground through reasoning. Examples are aplenty in this website itself. For example when someone posted telling that Brahmins should apologize, I was the only person who defended the community with strong reasoning point by point. No one else did and I am quite disappointed by that. In fact I personally feel that thread was started by a person from other community masquerading as a Brahmin (I had raised this point even many days before this particular thread was started. I came to the conclusion based on what had been posted by this person before).

I know about debates and have participated in them too. But it should be constructive.
However the postings and posters in question here do not contribute constructively. Those were the things against which I had to raise the voice.

Freedom of speech I give everyone, but wasting of time and energy in the name of free speech is what I mentioned about. Even then, in this thread I did not ask you to ban anyone. I only exercised the same "freedom of speech"
icon7.gif
you mentioned to register my thoughts on the cheap publicity acquired by junkies.


The fact is I spot these people early on or I raise my voice immediately on seeing red. I don’t wait feigning niceties or trying to be politically correct. Recent example is sizzler. First I start out believing everyone and so I gave him an honest reply. By the second post of his I smelt the rat. Still I gave a reply and voluntarily said that I don’t have to reply to him anymore. I did not ask him to be banned. But then , what happened? Others tried reasoning with him. You also did . Nothing worked and he was banned.
(Now he has come in his next avatar. Best of luck! Remember the other ways I had sent to the admins in which we can have better security in the forum).

So the point is I am impartial and I raise the red flag only when necessary and although people might think I am jumping at it , the fact remains that ultimately that is what turns out to be right.

Pl also consider this point:
People like sizzlers will keep coming. I am now not new in this forum and I know when to stay away from responding to junk. But what about people like rajiv gunja, who are new and have come here expecting to have some great time and all they get is dirty comments about their family and lineage. They end up wasting their time in needless arguments and waste energy in “reasoning” with morons. There needs to be a way to let them know what lies ahead. Since the site does not have any such mechanism , I had to make that posting on my own. It was not saying that the admins did not do anything. It was trying to help newcomers like rajiv gunja.

All along my objective in this forum is to help people. Initially I want to help people who really need it – Brahmins. Later I will cover the needy in other castes and communities because I am sure Brahmins have a natural tendency to help others. So help those who will help others too. All (at least 90%) my postings have been only about what to do in future constructively. Not about some imaginary things that happened in the past for which Brahmins are told to be apologetic about and have to use their reasoning skills to defend those unsupported allegations.

Anyway I am here only to help people and so I take your comments sportingly. Also I take it that you are my well wisher. Putting myself in your shoes , I understand your good intentions behind conducting this forum based on free-speech principles,but I hate to say this -- I am sure whatever I have said about these kind of posters and postings have been proved right by the sizzler incident.

From my side, I will respond to any posting only if I am convinced that anything good will come out of it. As I mentioned earlier , I did not ask for the ban of sizzler or I did not advocate ban in this thread of anyone and I will stick to that. At the same time I will choose to reply or not for any posting or poster. I have better things to do including useful knowledge based postings some of which have been found useful and appreciated. To me our site should be primarily for that -- knowledge sharing, mobilizing to help the needy and to fight for the fundamental rights of Indian citizens. I am not interested in discussing some apocryphal past and other nonsense.
 
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