Allowing non-hindus entry into temples

[silverfox]

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Why foreigners pay more?

My son visited with me two years ago and we went to the Taj Mahal. Of course, I was charged Rs.50 (Of course, I looked Indian even though I am an American citizen!) and they told me that my son will have to pay Rs.750 because he was 'gora babu' (LQ, correct my Hindi!). (My son is half English-French and so looks white). I told the guy that I was an American citizen but he simply laughed and didn't do anything!! I agree with Kudumi - these guys charge based on one's skin color and not really based on true nationality. How will they know if someone is a Pakistani or Sri Lankan or Bangladeshi - they all look Indians!!

I used to think foreigners getting charged exorbitant fees until I was in Russia. There all foreigners were charged 10 times than what an average Russian would pay. So it appears many countries do this.

Who is a foreigner? Manavaadu managaru, who proudly says " I am American" at every given opportunity still pays Rs5. Whereas the other guy just because his appearence is different shelves out $5? Whats the logic?

Why does the world treat us like crap? Its because we do not have any self respect. Our netas should make us proud. Instead they let us down repeatedly.

THe world treats us like crap because, we shit on the road like animals, yet have a color TV at home ( free or otherwise).

 

[KRS]

Dear Silverfox Ji,

I had the same experience like you! My sons look Italian and they were made to pay the Foreign rate also.

But this does not bother me. What bothers me is the treatment of Indians by the 'official' Indians. I quit flying Air India after my first visit back to India from the U.S. The air hostesses were rude to Indians while clearly favouring the white Americans. An incident involving myself so infuriated me, the Head hostess had to apologize. I swore off Air India then and there and took a different flight back to the U.S. And I have never flown that airlines since. No country treats their own citizens as bad as the official India treats their fellow brethren. Just my opinion.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[hariharan1972]

Different interpretations ?

My son visited with me two years ago and we went to the Taj Mahal. Of course, I was charged Rs.50 (Of course, I looked Indian even though I am an American citizen!) and they told me that my son will have to pay Rs.750 because he was 'gora babu' (LQ, correct my Hindi!). (My son is half English-French and so looks white).

This may be due to the different interpretations of "Athithi Devo Bhava" (roughly put Visitor is God)

Perhaps our Tourism Ministry interprets this as Athithi "They Owe" Bhava ?

Or is it that Athithi is a "Devo" since he pays up in "Dollars" ?

Kudumi sir - Thanks for your confidence that i could draw up an economic explanation for the higher charge, but am afraid i can't.

I really don't know whether charging the foreigner higher is right or not but i can surely say that they DONT get the value for the money.

 

[silverfox]

I had the same experience!

Dear KRS:
Please call me just Silverfox! No honorifics! I don't deserve it!
KRS, you wouldn't believe me if I told you.... the very same thing happened to me in 1975 when I flew on Air India from NY to India. That was the first and last time I flew on Air India. You are absolutely right about Air India mistreating Indians while bending backwards towards whites.

Dear Silverfox Ji,
I had the same experience like you! My sons look Italian and they were made to pay the Foreign rate also.

But this does not bother me. What bothers me is the treatment of Indians by the 'official' Indians. I quit flying Air India after my first visit back to India from the U.S. The air hostesses were rude to Indians while clearly favouring the white Americans. An incident involving myself so infuriated me, the Head hostess had to apologize. I swore off Air India then and there and took a different flight back to the U.S. And I have never flown that airlines since. No country treats their own citizens as bad as the official India treats their fellow brethren. Just my opinion.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[kashyap]

I avoid air india--more susceptible to terrror attacks

I avoid air india becos I lost trust on them after kanishka crash and hijacks of indian airlines flights .
BTW u know which is the terror-proof airline in india?
It is jet airways cos it is owned by a terrorist -- dawood ibrahim
( naresh goyal is jus a mask).

 

[jalsamatter]

A few questions

A few questions I had. Please pardon my ignorance though

1. What does prayer achieve? I mean..how does one know that prayer works? I ask out of ignorance, and not out of atheistic arrogance

2. Since Mormons do not allow us into some part of their church, why is that reason enough to prevent non-hindus from entering "our" temples? Do we need to ape what they do?

3. How do you define a human being as being member of a certain "religion"? Is it what simply he professes faith in, verbally, symbolically or perhaps through gestures? I mean, consider a mentally handicapped person - what religion does he belong to? How should the "guardians" of the temple determine if he is hindu or not. Should he be allowed? Or are we only worried about normal, fully mentally qualified people who have the capacity to say - "I am non-hindu"?

4. I am not a sociologist, so I am intrigued to know how one can identify "jealousy" in an entire community ("westerners"). I suppose I could manage to detect in a single person, but a sweeping generalization such as yours would require some expertise in demographics and social psychology. I wonder if you could share the methods you use to arrive at this conclusion

Lotus_quartz and Kashyap, not sure how old you two are, but from your
comments, seems like you have not seen much of life or the value of life and
the value of identity, in this Modern world.

Kashyap, there needs to be modernisation in certain aspect, but not in all
aspects of our religion. Yes there need to be a stop on blind faith and it is
time for us all to know the true purpose of life. (I am not going to tell you.
Read Bhagavath Geetha and you will know.)

Your topic about letting non-hindus enter our temples is valid, but you forget
that rules that certain temples abide by. Even though our scriptures might
tell us how to live our life, it does not however tell how the governing bodies
of the temple should function. What you are asking for is to dismantle years
of rules and regulation has has been there for centuries.

Have you ever gone to a Mosque or a Church ? If not, you have no right in
bringing up this subject. Forget non-hindu temple or church, have you gone
to a Sikh or Jain temple? If the answer is NO, then dont talk, you have not
earned the knowledge to talk.

I grew up in a Christian School, went to Church some times and did read
the Old testiment. I had a very close muslim friend while in school and he
would take me to his mosque off and on, when his father was not around.
I have read parts of the Quron (By the way if you did not know, it is the only
holy scripture which has not been altered since it was written. Cant say that
about the Bible or our Bhagavat Geetha). When I first came to US, I would
not only go to Church on a weekly basis, but would also go the Hindu temple
and pray. In India, when I needed peace and quiet, I would go to the Jain
temple and meditate, it was easy as there was one Jain temple on the way
to my Collage. Every time my friends and I went trekking and if we passed
a Tibetan settlement, we would go and take rest at their shrine and
meditate. (Tibetans follow Bhudhisum).

Do you know about Mormons? They are a sect of Christianity. As
a non-Christian, I am allowed only to certain parts of their temple. As
a non-mormon, even christians are not allowed in their entire shrine. Do you also
know that Mormons do not marry other sects of Christians, forget non-christians.

I have given up on any meaningful rebuttal to the points made by
Lotus_quartz. At best his/her comments are in the same line as the
Maruti Charector.

I am a modern man and an opened minded person, but having seen what
the western folk think about us or how they portray us in the world or in
their country, I will support the Temple's decision if they disallow them into
the temple. Of course, if an Indian does marry a westerner, they do have
the right as spouse to a Hindu can come into the temple.

You know why Westerners are so jealous of India? We have a huge history
and culture. We have grown over many Centuries. We have so many different
languages indigenous to India alone, no other country can claim the same.

By the way if you guys did not know the Pledge of Nation, here it is to the
best of my knowledge.

India is my country and all Indians are my brothers and sisters.
I love my country and I am proud of its rich and varied heritage.
I shall always strive to be worthy of it.
I shall give respect to my parents, teachers and elders and treat everyone with courtesy.
To my country and my people, I pledge my devotion.
In their well being and prosperity alone lies my happiness.
Jai Hind!

-GGR
​

 

[maruti]

Dear KRS:
Please call me just Silverfox! No honorifics! I don't deserve it!
KRS, you wouldn't believe me if I told you.... the very same thing happened to me in 1975 when I flew on Air India from NY to India. That was the first and last time I flew on Air India. You are absolutely right about Air India mistreating Indians while bending backwards towards whites.

Is this amazing or what? I've also had some terrible experiences, especially one where I'd forgotten to fill out some form, and the guy was sooooo mean I don't even think I can describe it. But he was ok with a whitey not filling out the same (disembarkation) form.:shocked:

Indians will never change, so my advice is for everyone to avoid these scums, and stick to the superior folks in our community. Unfortunately, we happen to be Indians, but at least let's limit our contact with 'our brothers and sisters' to avoid the pain that comes with it.

 

[GGR]

A few questions I had. Please pardon my ignorance though

2. Since Mormons do not allow us into some part of their church, why is that reason enough to prevent non-hindus from entering "our" temples? Do we need to ape what they do?

Jalsa-Matter, my answer was to the previous post, which said that we need to change the rules to allow non-hindus to enter certain temples. My words were not to "ape" (copy) anyone. Why I mentioned mormons was to bring to light other religions which have similar stands and no one can question them, as it is their rules. If a temple does not want to allow hindus inside it, once again, it is their rule. This rule is unlike the horrible aparthide rule that existed in US and other "white" nations. Where ever we go, we need to respect other's rules and regulations. If we are in a Buddhist temple, we need to abide by their rules.

Have you visited or gone to a mosque? I have, there is a rule to cover your head and not show that you are a non-muslim. Ofcourse, I went to a mosque when I was a kid. Do I dare go now? Not if I am not accompanied by someone else and only if I am welcome there.

Please read my full sentences and try and understand the context I am replying on.

3. How do you define a human being as being member of a certain "religion"? Is it what simply he professes faith in, verbally, symbolically or perhaps through gestures? I mean, consider a mentally handicapped person - what religion does he belong to? How should the "guardians" of the temple determine if he is hindu or not. Should he be allowed? Or are we only worried about normal, fully mentally qualified people who have the capacity to say - "I am non-hindu"?

You have touched a subject, which I think every person in this world should go through. Who are we and what defines us. But your thoughts are leaning towards the same question as who should be allowed and who should not.

Yes the "guardians" (priests) are responsible for it. It is their home and place of worship and sanctity, they help build the rules. I have no issues with allowing non-hindus inside a temple. If a person is true in his heart to learn or see our religion, I would gladly take him/her. But if they are not, then there is no use. From what I have seen, most of the non-hindus, who are staunch about their religion, dont care much for our religion. for them, they do not consider hinduism as a religion at all, as there are lesser people following it than Christianity. If you do not beleive me, watch the 24 hour news channels and see what they think about islam. They have linked islam and terrorism as the same. It is very suttle, but the message is there.

4. I am not a sociologist, so I am intrigued to know how one can identify "jealousy" in an entire community ("westerners"). I suppose I could manage to detect in a single person, but a sweeping generalization such as yours would require some expertise in demographics and social psychology. I wonder if you could share the methods you use to arrive at this conclusion

Yes westerners do have jealousy. You need to experience it. If you are in the US and working day in and day out, you might not see it, but when you mingle with people and listen to their views you begin to understand it. Infact, Discovery channel or National Geographic channels dont show much about India or hinduism. The serials that were started recently will be aired only in India and no where else.

If you want more proof, please read some religious books written by westerner.

According to their research: Quoting here :

"On the other hand two comparitively insignificant gods of the Rig Veda, Vishnu, a divinity connected both with the sun and with the sacrifice, and Rudra, who later became known as Siva ('the Auspicious'), a fierce mountain god, have become the chief gods of Hinduism."
Page 218 - Encyclopedia of the World's Religions



I dont know how religious you are Jalsa-matter, but being a hindu and an Indian, this statement hurts.

-GGR

 

[jalsamatter]

Rajiv,

I am still a little confused. I am trying to find out why we must be possessive about hinduism, which by the way, was a term invented by a British census officer trying to figure how to classify "the rest" of india - apart from the Christians and Muslims. We as Indians are an eclectic, diverse bunch of mostly tolerant people who have lived in harmony for millennia. Our strength is our inclusivity. Im not sure advocating an exclusivity like other monotheistic religons do will make sense.

As for western opinions on hinduism, a single encyclopaedia's opinion does not represent an entire community's opinion. I am personally irreligious and I read religious texts to try and see what wisdom I can learn and at the same time, I seek out obsolete verses glorifying the utmost cruelty Trust me. All religions are profound and yet incredibly cruel at times. Just read the entire Manusmriti to find out for yourself.

 

[NARAS]

sirs - the manusmrithi does not represent the official version of hinduism, though it was followed for many years in india. but koran and bible represent the official view of their religions and it hurts more when the official versions are so incredibly cruel.

 

[nachi naga]

a tepmple is a place,where all shud be allowed to worship,provided they believe in temple worship or religious iconic diety worship.at this day and age ,god is common to all though he/she is called in many names in many different languages.shanthi!

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

a tepmple is a place,where all shud be allowed to worship,provided they believe in temple worship or religious iconic diety worship.at this day and age ,god is common to all though he/she is called in many names in many different languages.shanthi!

There is a board in Meenakshi Temple announcing கைலி அணிந்து உள்ளே செல்ல அனுமதி இல்லை & non Hindus are not allowed beyond this point. I have seen members of Hare Rama Hare Krishna group with Chandan on fore head and a small Kudumi proclaiming their faith in Hinduism praying . Foreigners also I have seen with குங்குமம் on their fore head again proclaiming their belief in Hindu faith in praying in Meenakshi Temple. Were they sneakers or the temple staff did not prevent them because of their belief in Hindu faith I do not know. Jambu ray:

 

[nachi naga]

There is a board in Meenakshi Temple announcing கைலி அணிந்து உள்ளே செல்ல அனுமதி இல்லை & non Hindus are not allowed beyond this point. I have seen members of Hare Rama Hare Krishna group with Chandan on fore head and a small Kudumi proclaiming their faith in Hinduism praying . Foreigners also I have seen with குங்குமம் on their fore head again proclaiming their belief in Hindu faith in praying in Meenakshi Temple. Were they sneakers or the temple staff did not prevent them because of their belief in Hindu faith I do not know. Jambu ray:

jambu

as far as i know,dress norms were prescribed as per each temple devsthanam.lungi is predominantly islamic dress.islam prohibhits diety worship.so a doble whammy to both religion.even though islam is an off shoot of sanathana dharma,where nirguna brahman the arabs called it as allah.so,language is different,so utterances to brahman are different.

by writing as non-hindus literally in tamil it mean i am hindu ayyo naan avan illai .

hare rama krishna society aka as vaishnavas of goswami sampradaya of chaitanya maha prabhu,embrace one and all in their fold and also to temple afaik.

hindu as a word is a corrupt form of sindu river which became indus river and which became hindu on account of hindi language,and even now arabs have 'al-hind' recorded history of the greatness of a civilisation,which they were proud to conquer and rule for 1000 years.that bharat varsh has become,India which gain is a corrupt word from hind,hindu,hindi....<3

 

[rcscwc]

Breeze of medernism !

We have come a long way since the theory by (Prof.) Manu which asked the devout to pour molten lead into the ears of shudras if they happen to hear the verses of holy shlokas etc.

In spite of many regressive features, Hinduism has survived till date only due to large number of liberals who have been practicing peaceful coexistence but were/are shy of coming to the lime light which has been hogged by brahmins in the past and bjp/rss/shiv sena guys in present day India.

Instead of adopting a piecemeal approach to revival in Hinduism, we might as well as go in for a drastic revision/overhaul on what the world understands by Hinduism. Some of my proposals are:

1. Rewrite holy texts by a body of enlightened Hindus jettisoning
varnashrama system and anti-shudra bias;

2. Amplify the good things in Hinduism like our achievments in the past in
sciences, astronomy, medicine temple architecture, irrigation
technologies, music etc.;

3. Amplify the philosophy of Gnana, Bhakti, Yoga, Adwaita, Peace, Karma,
Ascetism, Guru-Shishya parampara etc. ;

3A. Amplify those features in Hinduism which promote democracy, cult of scientific temper, negotiation through dialogue, mutual agreement and adjustment, valour and courage, justice (Nyaya) , duty (Dharma) etc.

4. Make it easier for non-Hindus to not only enter Hindu holy places,
temples etc but also to convert to Hinduism by a simple inexpensive
initiation rite etc. etc.

5. Treat all Hindus as equals without any favour or prejudice, make caste system irrelevant so that one or two generations down the line, no one will recollect their original caste !

Any takers ?

Why not ask a panel of xians and muslims to revise our scriptures?

 

[Brahmanyan]

Each Temple follows its own tradition and perform rituals as per the Aagamas set for the particular Temple. Tirupati temple has gone into electrical decorations and electronic ticketing, but they do not allow CCTV broadcasts from inside the Sanctum. Whereas in Udupi Krishnamutt, the pooja by the Acharya was telecast fully from the inside of the Sanctum on Krishnajanmashtami day.

We should not forget that Pooja in Temples are for the devouts, and not for sightseers. It is my personal view that if some one (including non-hindus) wants to perform Pooja in the Temple they should be allowed. Similarly If some one wants to enter the Temple, he or she should honour the traditions of the Temple and dress themselves according to the requirements. In Sikh Gurudwaras all devotees are expected to cover their heads, so also in other religions there are specific decorum to follow by the worshipers.

As the time passes the traditions also will change according to the requirements of the Society, just as many other things changed in Hindu society.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore

 

[rcscwc]

Each Temple follows its own tradition and perform rituals as per the Aagamas set for the particular Temple. Tirupati temple has gone into electrical decorations and electronic ticketing, but they do not allow CCTV broadcasts from inside the Sanctum. Whereas in Udupi Krishnamutt, the pooja by the Acharya was telecast fully from the inside of the Sanctum on Krishnajanmashtami day.

We should not forget that Pooja in Temples are for the devouts, and not for sightseers. It is my personal view that if some one (including non-hindus) wants to perform Pooja in the Temple they should be allowed. Similarly If some one wants to enter the Temple, he or she should honour the traditions of the Temple and dress themselves according to the requirements. In Sikh Gurudwaras all devotees are expected to cover their heads, so also in other religions there are specific decorum to follow by the worshipers.

As the time passes the traditions also will change according to the requirements of the Society, just as many other things changed in Hindu society.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore

If you want to enter a temple, then you must abide its rules. If you do not like the rules, don't enter, but you cannot demand a change in rules to suit you.

In Sikh gurudwaras, one must cover the head, not bring in tobacco products, don't come drunk or in dirty dreass etc. I believe many S. Indian married women DO NOT cover their heads. So they cannot be admitted.

Take a cue from Zail Singh, when he was the president. When he went to a temple in S. India, he was informed that he must uncover his head. He did not agree, but did not create a scene, but respects from outside.

When I was posted in Asansol, W. Bengal, I found almost all the Kali temples have a tradition of animal sacrifice. I am against it. So, I paid respect from outside the compound, though animals are NOT sacrificed INSIDE.

In Ram Lalla temple, Orchcha, MP, only women are permitted to be inside during the AARTI, men are excluded. Men don't complain. So in case of Mahalaxmi temple of Kolhapur, Maha.

 

[happyhindu]

If you want to enter a temple, then you must abide its rules. If you do not like the rules, don't enter, but you cannot demand a change in rules to suit you.

In Sikh gurudwaras, one must cover the head, not bring in tobacco products, don't come drunk or in dirty dreass etc. I believe many S. Indian married women DO NOT cover their heads. So they cannot be admitted.

Take a cue from Zail Singh, when he was the president. When he went to a temple in S. India, he was informed that he must uncover his head. He did not agree, but did not create a scene, but respects from outside.

When I was posted in Asansol, W. Bengal, I found almost all the Kali temples have a tradition of animal sacrifice. I am against it. So, I paid respect from outside the compound, though animals are NOT sacrificed INSIDE.

In Ram Lalla temple, Orchcha, MP, only women are permitted to be inside during the AARTI, men are excluded. Men don't complain. So in case of Mahalaxmi temple of Kolhapur, Maha.

quick note:

i hv been to gurudwaras. no one is disallowoed.

females do need to cover head..but if you are a southie or a visitor no one compells you to cover the head...the first few times i did not cover my head..

ofcourse ppl can make rules for temple entries...cleanliness is a must..you can certainly ask ppl to skip non-veg on the day they come to temples and so on...but no on can deny temple-entries outright on the basis of caste alone (like what batuprasad sharma does).

 

[Brahmanyan]

When ever I go to Delhi I visit Sesgunj Gurudhwara in Chandni chowk and other Gurudwaras in Rakabgunj Saheb and Bangla Saheb. Also I go to Gurusingh Sabha in Bangalore. I love to enjoy the serene and peaceful atmosphere backed by soothing strains of Kirthans that prevail in Gurudwaras. There is no restriction for any one who like to visit these Gurudwaras. Sikh religious protocol expects the devotees to cover their head while they are inside the Gurudwara, it is a must for all men and women. They even offer big kerchief for this purpose to those who need. More information on Sikh religious etiquette can be found in the following URL.
Sikhism - Gurdwara - Sikh Temple

Interestingly when I took my Sardarji friend to Sri Akilandeswari Temple at Tiruvanaikoil, the priest politely asked him to remove his turban while we were inside the Sanctum for puja, which my friend obliged without protest. Social customs differ from region to region, it is only fair that we should respect them willingly.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore