After this body - What happens? Or After death of the body - what next

[sundachu]

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Death is an eternal sleep.But the soul mingles with the cosmic energy and comes down again and enters a suitable body . You read the book,'' Book of the dead ' a Tibetan writing.
sundararajan.

 

[Subhalakshmi]

I am not an expert nor have read all the scriptures that all of you have been quoting.. I am a simple minded person and the I know the basics and do believe that the soul once it leaves the body, it comes back to pretty much the same world it left, and pays its debt.. I feel this very much looking at so many things in my life that I have observed that even if someone has taken some money from me I feel I am giving it back from the last birth.. so many people that I have met and the duty in which I am bound.. and when my duty towards someone ends in such a way that I had not expected.. so many examples I can site, but that would need to write my life history.. which is not bad, but I consider myself very lucky for having such an experience that has shaped me not to hate, be jealous, not want more, not that I am a sanyasi, but when I was 3 1/2 years old a major turning point in life, I felt, nothing is mine.. and lived like that until today. I am attached in a detached way, that always has been my motto..

I strongly feel that my past life, must have been such, that this life I had to learn the lessons the hard way, too trusting has its own downfall.. but I have learned, I have felt a connection to certain things in this life, which has no bearing to my personal life.. but I feel there is a reason for all this.. I am sure all of us have to analyze our life and feel the inner gut and know what is the purpose of our existence.. I used to wonder a lot why I am here, and I know the answer..

 

[renuka]

I am not an expert nor have read all the scriptures that all of you have been quoting.. I am a simple minded person and the I know the basics and do believe that the soul once it leaves the body, it comes back to pretty much the same world it left, and pays its debt.. I feel this very much looking at so many things in my life that I have observed that even if someone has taken some money from me I feel I am giving it back from the last birth.. so many people that I have met and the duty in which I am bound.. and when my duty towards someone ends in such a way that I had not expected.. so many examples I can site, but that would need to write my life history.. which is not bad, but I consider myself very lucky for having such an experience that has shaped me not to hate, be jealous, not want more, not that I am a sanyasi, but when I was 3 1/2 years old a major turning point in life, I felt, nothing is mine.. and lived like that until today. I am attached in a detached way, that always has been my motto..

I strongly feel that my past life, must have been such, that this life I had to learn the lessons the hard way, too trusting has its own downfall.. but I have learned, I have felt a connection to certain things in this life, which has no bearing to my personal life.. but I feel there is a reason for all this.. I am sure all of us have to analyze our life and feel the inner gut and know what is the purpose of our existence.. I used to wonder a lot why I am here, and I know the answer..

Dear Subs Ji,

I fully agree with what you wrote..just a few days ago I was telling my mum that I have a character trait that is only peculiar to me where no other family members shares(dont ask me what it is but my mum always scolds me for that!!LOL)

None of my cousins both mum's side and dad's side have this trait too..so I can only conclude its something I must have brought from my previous birth..thats the only explanation I can find.

And also one more point SubhaJi..I only started learning music at the age of 12 but since a child if anyone were to give me a toy piano or even let me play the piano I just knew how to play some songs its as if I knew which keys I should press..

I guess we bring forward lots of traits from our previous birth unknowingly.

 

[Subhalakshmi]

Thank you Renuka for this input, you do understand, that is great..
You see, dance is in my blood, I can choreograph to any song from anywhere in the world, even though I learned 7 years of Kuchipudi and one year of Bharathanatyam prior to that.. I was never able to cash in all that.. I used to wonder I can do many things, yet I cannot make use of it in anyway in my life.. it is like a curse of some sort..

I would be quite interested to know the trait of yours ;-) heheheheee!! Yeah I feel strongly too about the traits from previous birth, I know the feeling.

to give you one example, a few years ago I was in London museum.. I was near the roman and greek display and found some chain pattern and the round balls exactly like the Thali, so I thought it must have been the trade that made both countries have the same pattern in jewelry... then I walked into the section where there was a special display of Egyptian Mummies and other artifacts.. I was slowly edged to each of them and when I came to this one particular young woman's Mummy, I believe she was part of a royal family, my heart was pounding so fast, I was hyperventilating and could not breathe, I ran from there and went and sat down on the steps..

I was indeed so puzzled and tried to go back, I just could not.. I know this may sound bizarre, but I feel I was either close to her or I was the girl and must have died tragically.. for the longest time since I was about ten years old, (after I had the dengu fever) I developed sharp pain in the right shoulder going towards my back, it comes and goes.. it feels like a knife running through and I feel it was something that I have carried from many many births before.. I know it sounds strange, but I cannot shake the feeling..

 

[Subhalakshmi]

About you playing the piano, how sweet, that is something I wanted to learn, my children play and it is in the old house I used to live.. I bet you were a master in playing the piano in one of your births..

 

[sarma-61]

namaste shrI Sarmaji and others.

I suggest we drop the 'ji' in addressing each other, since we often address BhagavAn himself by just a name name without any title.

As I have said in my post #45 addressed to Govinda, I have no in-depth familiarity with our scriptures, and barely literate in Sanskrit. Besides, I belong to the sampradAya--tradition--of Shankara-smArta-advaita. I have no problems at all with being countered, since we both and most others here are seekers, not scholars, and most of the time we voice only our own free thoughts, irrespective of what the scriptures say.

• Nevertheless, I also believe in the validity of the dvaita and vishiShTAdvaita and other Hindu siddhAntas. Since advaita is the apex, these other traditions can be reconciled to form a hierarchy below the apex, inasmuch as such a hierarchy exists from the nirguNa brahman through the saguNa brahman, devas and other subtle beings, to JIvas and Jagat.

• Thus, IMHO, all the three interpretations of statements in the vedas and upaniShads have their own truth under the given circumstances, not necessarily contradicting one another.

• It seems to me that the apparent duality of the dvA suparNa as two birds is understood better by the PanchAdashI explanation of Brahman as the chaitanya and jIvAtman as the chidAbhAsa. I have attempted a compilation of some essential terms in this post:
Hindu Dharma Forums - View Single Post - Practical Advaita

• In this connection, I would be grateful if you--or any other member--could explain what Kanchi ParamachArya has said of this verse in the KaThopaniShad,

angushTa mAtraH purushaH jyotirivaadhUmakaH |
IshAno bhutabhavyasya sa evAdya sa u shvaH

in this post:
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/philos...paramacharya-devotees-who-sought-jnana-3.html

As regards your observation in post #39:
Will it not, therefore, be more appropriate to say that the JeevAtma is like a power supply which makes the human being machine work in accordance with the programme written down for it in accordance with karmas and vAsanas? If this is agreed upon, and we also take not of the fact that in the Supreme Brahman, there can be no differentiation of its constituent parts, and so it may not be possible to identify any particular jeevAtma as a separate entity like the arils in a pomegranate. It will be more like taking a spoonful of water from the ocean - you will not get the same water again.

Tat tvam asi is, in my view, to be taken as the effort being made to urge the conscious mind or "I"ness to look within and experience the witnessing jeevAtma.

• I have no problem with the concept that Brahman and Jiva are essentially the same, whether we seek to illustrate it by the example of a power supply, or the I-ness of Jiva being in the field of universal consciousness of Brahman. Differences arise only with the nature of the reality of the apparent limitations of material adjuncts like the body and mind.

• Surely, JIvas are not like the arils in a pomogranate (a good example)--specially when they are the reflected consciousness of brahman--but the limitations of arils do exist in manifest creation, though as a conditional/pracital reality. This I think is due to the play of mAyA--that which (apparently) measures out the brahma chaitanya.

• It seems to me that Jiva is permanently different from Brahman due to its material adjuncts in dvaita, integrated into the divine body of Brahman on liberation in vishiShTAdvaita and irretrievably lost into Brahman as a spoon of water from the ocean in advaita. Please correct me where I am wrong.

• The spoon of water from the ocean analogy has this problem: that you don't get the same water again when you dip the spoon into the ocean a second time might well be true on the ultimate liberation of the Jiva, but it may not be not the case with the rebirth cycles of a Jiva.

I don't think that bodies of different karmic models are ready beforehand for any Jiva to enter any body (so in this sense one need not be worried about bad karma he/she generates in this life). If the spoon of water example is true at all times, we also ask the question, "Does the same soul returns to the body after deep sleep?"

Shri Saidevo,

I agree that we cannot question the observations and statements of the great AcAryas. So, I have no comments to offer regarding the above post.

But I am somewhat confused about the "suShupti" state. Since the vital functions of the body (heart, lungs, kidney and even brain) continue to function uninterrupted even during the suShupti state, will it not be correct to view that the jeevAtma is somehow connected to the body (the manner of this we may not know)? If so, the possibility of some other jeeva coming on the cessation of suShupti will not be there. That (suShupti) stage may be likened to a person sleeping well after shutting all the doors and windows of his house so that just a mere calling out, etc., will not be sufficient to wake that person up, and it will require some very loud noise or disturbance for that.

 

[Govinda]

I am not an expert nor have read all the scriptures that all of you have been quoting.. I am a simple minded person and the I know the basics and do believe that the soul once it leaves the body, it comes back to pretty much the same world it left, and pays its debt.. I am attached in a detached way, that always has been my motto..


I used to wonder a lot why I am here, and I know the answer..

Very nice post, based on own experience. Though we are an aggregate personality from our own past-life, we can also be totally lost in current life (thru our mind/senses/ society/world). Unless we experience our own 'hard' sufferings/short-falls, we are not even close to correlating other events or realizing their reason/meaning behind them.

Whereas, there are some born jnAnis or people like you (where deep impressions are carried in the self), who naturally get bewildered/fear any vicious activities. It is also similar in the case of any researchers or sports personalities or artists or leaders, they all carry that deep sense of spirit to pursue their ambitions and find tremendous happiness/bliss in achievements. One cannot claim them to be from the brain, as not all want to pursue the same thing and in the same vein.

 

[Govinda]

I am not an expert nor have read all the scriptures that all of you have been quoting..

One might have passed the entrance to IIT/AIIMS, unless he pursues the degree in the standards of that Institute, he may not achieve a successful career. In the same lines, though our own personal experiences shape us, the scriptures could take us faster towards the right goal. Once we have a considerable experience in life (schooling, social life, responsibilities etc.), we can relate our experiences to the scripture/philosophy. I try to understand the upanishads/gita etc. thru english translations, for me tamil would be time-consuming.

 

[Subhalakshmi]

One might have passed the entrance to IIT/AIIMS, unless he pursues the degree in the standards of that Institute, he may not achieve a successful career. In the same lines, though our own personal experiences shape us, the scriptures could shape us faster towards the right goal. Once we have a considerable experience in life (schooling, marriage, social life), we can relate our experiences to the scripture/philosophy. I try to understand the upanishads/gita etc. thru english translations, for me tamil would be time-consuming.

I have a friend in India who sends me a lot of good material to read, some are thought provoking some are jokes, some religious and every time I read something I make a comment and in general I just say something which I feel strongly about, he always was shocked to see me say things and he asked me if I have read all the scriptures the upanishad the geetha and so many other books, I have read a little but not to the extent of what you are quoting I would say, then he said but how come you know the essence so much.. I just don't know the answer, because I have a feeling that I have known many things all along, I have not made an effort specially to learn anything in this life, perhaps I might take up something in the near future, but I do sense a lot of things which are beyond a normal person would feel.. so I can only attribute it to my past life, my learning must have happened in so many births that I still carry a lot of the memory..

I feel fascinated with architecture and temple art simple things just makes me wonder, I am talking about daily life, every day is a learning experience for me.. I don't think that I am lesser person because I have not read all the hindu doctrines.. many of us don't read everything, for me I am already in a peaceful state, I avoid all kinds of negative situations, I am extremely positive person, I try to help as much as possible, I am there for my friends and family, there is nothing I won't do for them and when you are almost in the happy state, what more could I want in life..

 

[Govinda]

Sow. Subhalakshmi,

Thanks for replying.

I try to help as much as possible, I am there for my friends and family, there is nothing I won't do for them and when you are almost in the happy state, what more could I want in life..

Now, that suggests the need of a working manual like Gita. You have all along given your experiences regd. past life (karma), now you still want to get stuck with the similar experiences, in the lives to come. All these attachments have simply arisen due to our sense of 'I' ( I am smart/happy, I dont need to know anymore) and 'Mine' (all my people belong to me, they wouldn't be happy without my favour). But your case, was on the defensive Ego side.

Can you learn from real experiences/life, that all those people are individuals and don't exist purely becos of you? That they all exist because of their own individuality and karma. All these materials and relations are there purely for our experiences in slowly realizing our own self overtime. But, none of these would cease to exist, if I didn't exist. I may have born to a different couple, if my parents decided not to have kids. I may have lived single or found a different match, if my spouse didnt exist. All the relations/situations, seem to work out, based on my need/karma. If I cannot help my family, some one else would help them [if they got be helped/relieved]. But it is my obligatory duty to help them.

Imagine you are not able to help your friends! What would be your state of happiness and positiveness? There are so many in the world, who cannot be helped out and are suffering, how can you be almost in a happy state? How then, can you be extremely positive?? [Don't take any of this as personal, just want to use this example to drive the point regd. karma and realization]

 

[Govinda]

Sri Sarma,

Post#46

Shri Govinda sir,

Some confusion; you say that "jeeva is similar to Nirguna Brahman" is un-advaitic, whereas according to Sankara Jeeva is non-different from Brahman. Are these not the same?

We indians are prone to use 'same', 'similar' interchangeably. I am the same person who works as a teacher at school and act as a principal. The twins look similar [ but are the same person]. For Shankara, 'na-parah' means same, becos Jiva and Brahman has no difference. For upa., Jiva and Brahman are similar in having essential/basic attributes of 'being, knowledge and bliss' [ but different in their levels too.]

If the reference is here to the vijnAnamaya kOSa, I have been under the impression that it is an outer sheath covering the AnandamayakOSa with the jeeva inside. So the relevance of this to the dvAsuparnA verse is not clear to me, sir.

"Different from this self that consists of vignyAna-maya, is the inner-self that consists of bliss' "

This quote distinguishes between the Jiva and the Brahman. Jiva is of the nature of seeking (knowledge/truth) whereas the Brahman(inner-self) is in complete bliss [nothing to seek]. This is similar to the analogy of 'two birds one witness and the other one enjoying fruits of karma".

 

[Govinda]

post# 47

Sri Saidevo,

namaste shrI Sarmaji and others.

• It seems to me that the apparent duality of the dvA suparNa as two birds is understood better by the PanchAdashI explanation of Brahman as the chaitanya and jIvAtman as the chidAbhAsa. I have attempted a compilation of some essential terms in this post:
Hindu Dharma Forums - View Single Post - Practical Advaita

I have read this before [ will quote ref later.*].

There is another verse about two birds entered the cave, but one enjoys and the other is a witness that doesn't enjoy . This verse talks about Jiva and Brahman (blissful).

There is another one, that says, Both, of the nature of sunshine and shadow, entered the cave'. Here the Brahman is light/omniscient and jiva is shadow (ignorant and dependent).

• In this connection, I would be grateful if you--or any other member--could explain what Kanchi ParamachArya has said of this verse in the KaThopaniShad,

angushTa mAtraH purushaH jyotir eva dhUmakaH |
IshAno bhuta-bhavyasya sa-eva (HE only) adya sa u shvaH

in this post:
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/philos...paramacharya-devotees-who-sought-jnana-3.html

Purusha like Atman, can mean any sentient being, just jIvA or Lord. As both reside in the heart, 'AngushTa mAtra purusha' also can refer to both. One should take it to mean jIvA or Brahman acc. to the context.

I have a commentary on Bhrama sutra, that says ' As the Lord abides in the heart of men who meditates on Him, and the heart is of the size of thumb. Thus the Lord is referred by the 'AngushTa mAtra Purusha'. As men are capable of meditating on Him, the srutis are for men.

The verse in Kata Upa, means 'The person of the size of the thumb is like light without smoke (ignorance, like dhUma-ketu). He is the Lord of the past, present, today and tomorrow'.

But I dont understand the commentary in the link.

As regards your observation in post #39:
Will it not, therefore, be more appropriate to say that the JeevAtma is like a power supply which makes the human being machine work in accordance with the programme written down for it in accordance with karmas and vAsanas? If this is agreed upon, and we also take not of the fact that in the Supreme Brahman, there can be no differentiation of its constituent parts, and so it may not be possible to identify any particular jeevAtma as a separate entity like the arils in a pomegranate. It will be more like taking a spoonful of water from the ocean - you will not get the same water again.

Sai sir, Your analogy is little off. Jiva is not the powersupply, it is the prana (creative life force) that is the 'common' powersupply. It is the different bulbs that work acc. to the voltage/design (knowledge/bodily makeup - karma). We replace/recycle the bulb when loses its life. You may extend the example to different appliances that derive the same power, but functions differently than the bulb. Thus, the funtions are based on it own individual design, it was intended for.

Every aril/seed in the pomegrate will make one tree, which implies a life/jiva. The spoon of water and the ocean are the same object, hence that example is not of much help.

Tat tvam asi is, in my view, to be taken as the effort being made to urge the conscious mind or "I"ness to look within and experience the witnessing jeevAtma.

How can a mind become conscious without the effort of the Jiva? Else, why are there dictators, corrupt, criminals, who don't realize the evil and make a conscious effort to fix their minds. ?

This aphorism, is to establish that Jiva belongs to Brahman. This relationship emphasizes that Jiva can never be independent of Him. Wherever one sets out to enjoy vacation, be it cruise or hike or pilgrimage, that jiva has retire back to its home. Thus obviously, one should make a conscious effort to realize its own nature of being dependent/subservient to the Creator.

The spoon of water from the ocean analogy has this problem: that you don't get the same water again when you dip the spoon into the ocean a second time might well be true on the ultimate liberation of the Jiva, but it may not be not the case with the rebirth cycles of a Jiva.

This makes a better sense. Even the one, the highest jnani (Lord's beloved), Krishna says, 'attains me, or attains my being, comes to me, enjoys my bliss, becomes omniscient' but never says 'he become me'. Thus, the individuality should remain, but the 'enlightened' jiva attains the same nature of Brahman. [ref. later*]

 

[renuka]

Sai sir, Your analogy is little off. Jiva is not the powersupply, it is the prana (creative life force) that is the 'common' powersupply. It is the different bulbs that work acc. to the voltage/design (knowledge/bodily makeup - karma). We replace/recycle the bulb when loses its life. You may extend the example to different appliances that derive the same power, but functions differently than the bulb. Thus, the funtions are based on it own individual design, it was intended for.

Every aril/seed in the pomegrate will make one tree, which implies a life/jiva. The spoon of water and the ocean are the same object, hence that example is not of much help.


/QUOTE]

Dear Govinda,

I would not disagree with SaiDevo here.I feel his analogy is within the acceptable school of thought.

Prana is like the electrons that make up electricity when they move in one direction.

But can we say electrons are the power supply?
No isnt it.

The power supply is the storehouse of energy..for example a Hydroelectric plant that generates electricity for us.

Thats how we can view Paramatma as the source of Power supply.

Paramatma is the source of Cosmic Energy that animates the universe..thats at a macrocosmic scale.

Now coming to the microcosmic scale that is the human body, the vital forces(Prana) that animate the body derive the energy from Jivatma.

This understanding can only come to picture for us when we appreciate that Jivatma is of the same nature as Paramatma.


You also wrote this:

Even the one, the highest jnani (Lord's beloved), Krishna says, 'attains me, or attains my being, comes to me, enjoys my bliss, becomes omniscient' but never says 'he become me'. Thus, the individuality should remain, but the 'enlightened' jiva attains the same nature of Brahman.

In Gita Lord Krishna also said this..

The Eternal Jivatma, in the human body is but a part of My own Being; and it is that alone which draws
round Itself the mind and the senses, both of which are rooted in Prakriti.
(Gita 15. 7)

Doesnt the line "part of My own Being" denote that Jeeva is essentially the same as Paramatma?
Just imagine we have a doll which is made up of sugar, the doll has a head,limbs,torso etc.
each part looks different to us but each part tastes as sweet as the other.
We can only be part of something that is the same as us.

 

[biswa]

Dear sister Renu,

It is believed that the cases of folks who remember their purva janma details because they took their rebirths very soon after their deaths, so the memory was more or less intact. I read it somewhere.

Regards,
KRS

The Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama always remember their previous births. Otherwise they wouldn't be found after their death. However the current Dalai Lama is not speaking of a successor. Maybe he has decided not to be reborn.