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Advaita - For Scholars

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sravna

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Dear Members,

Based on my belief that making philosophical works accessible to the common man is more important than indulging in and scoring hair splitting points over perceived flaws in logic, I have been trying to contribute in the small ways I could. But I have this feeling that there is always a perceived way of doing things which if not followed will not get your message across.

With this in mind and also wanting to stick to my philosophy of accessibility I am starting two threads on advaita - one for scholars and the other for the layman. I hope this would satisfy both the purposes that I have referred to.

I request members to contribute to the discussions so that one and all can benefit.
 
Dear Members,

Based on my belief that making philosophical works accessible to the common man is more important than indulging in and scoring hair splitting points over perceived flaws in logic, I have been trying to contribute in the small ways I could. But I have this feeling that there is always a perceived way of doing things which if not followed will not get your message across.

With this in mind and also wanting to stick to my philosophy of accessibility I am starting two threads on advaita - one for scholars and the other for the layman. I hope this would satisfy both the purposes that I have referred to.

I request members to contribute to the discussions so that one and all can benefit.

The most important among the topics hotly debated for centuries, is of mAyA-avidyA, in advaita. This concept is so central that the advaita school which introduced this concept, is frequently characterised as “mAyAvAda”. Sankara commenced with the word "adhyAsa", in his 'adhyAsa bhAshya'. But in the course of the continuing war between advaitin scholars and non-advaitin scholars, this original adhyAsa has been variously interpreted in course of time by different advaitin scholars, and the concept has become something similar to chappatti batter which can be made into any shape at will !!

The crux of the adhyAsa conundrum is that according to Sankara's original (made in Kalady, so to say) advaita or non-dualism, there is only one Reality in the whole jagat and beyond, and that is a nirguNa brahman. It has absolutely no characteristic that nothing can be said describing or qualifying it except that "It is".

Now, the ordinary people see this world and it behaves like reality. But according to Sankara, all these realities are not realities and the perception of such reality-ness arises because of "avidyA" of the jeeva. Jeeva being nothing other than the brahman itself ( jeevO brahmaiva naapara: ) it became necessary for Sankara to explain how the brahman which is the only Reality considers this world as also reality. He took the argument that the brahman is covered by some veil and called it "adhyAsa", "adhyArOpa", etc. In course of time the word "mAyA" came to be used in this place. Since then advaita has also been referred to as "mAyAvAda" by its opponents.

rAmAnuja who reacted to the school of advaita by formulating viSishTadvaita, made the concept of mAyA-avidyA as the prime target of his attack. He stated his justly famous “seven objections”, ‘sapthavidha anupapaththi’ against the concept of mAyA-avidyA, in his Sree bhAshya.

This attack on the concept of mAyA-avidyA, initiated by rAmAnuja, is vigorously continued by his followers, and there has been continual and fierce debate between advaithins and viSishTadvaithins on the concept of mAyA-avidyA that has spread over the centuries. The concept of mAyA-avidyA is centrally connected to the very way of conceiving conflict in advaita and viSishTadvaita. For advaita it is axiomatic that brahman is non-dual and absolutely featureless, niRguNa, and therefore, the problem that naturally arises is of explaining the multiplicity of entities and features encountered by humans in the world of our experience. The concept of mAyA-avidyA is inferred by advaita as explanatory of this phenomenon. It is as good in advaita that, in view of the sole reality of the niRguNa brahman, the universe of names and forms experienced by us is not ultimately real, and this unreality is variously referred to by the terms “mithhyA”, “aniRvachaneeya”, “sadasad vilakshaNa”. Thus the concept of mAyA-avidyA is used by advaita to account for the experience of multiplicity and variety, when, in fact, there is no entity except the sole “niRguNa brahman”.

Sankara explains this by means of his 'rope-snake' analogy. But, though the mistaking a rope for snake involves misperception and the snake is supposed to last only for the duration of its knowledge, it will require the knowledge of the existence of the snake previous to the appearance of this unreal knowledge. This is of utmost importance because if the illusory object of perception (here, the snake) does not exist prior to mistaking the rope for the snake, then such a misunderstanding or illusion could not have arisen. Hence, the Jeevas must have had prior knowledge of a world which is identical to the wrongly perceived present world. If this is conceded, it will then follow that besides brahman, there is another world which is real.

Thus Sankara's advaita suffers, and that too heavily, because of his non-dualism which can be logically fitted only with the SUnyavAda of madhyamika buddhism.

May be the above points can be discussed in this thread for scholars.
 
Dear Sri sarma-61 ji,
You mentioned:
Hence, the Jeevas must have had prior knowledge of a world which is identical to the wrongly perceived present world. If this is conceded, it will then follow that besides brahman, there is another world which is real.
Isnt the jeeva gaining this (unreal) knowlegde (or rather the avidya) of the world during its stay in this world? The knowledge of the snake and its awareness is only perceived from the stay in the world and not acquired prior to the jeeva. Is that correct?
 
Dear Sri sarma-61 ji,
You mentioned:

Isnt the jeeva gaining this (unreal) knowlegde (or rather the avidya) of the world during its stay in this world? The knowledge of the snake and its awareness is only perceived from the stay in the world and not acquired prior to the jeeva. Is that correct?

Dear Shri ozone,

What I wrote is not anything original from my brain but already raised by much better informed souls, I will say.

Just as a person has to have seen or have some idea about the snake so that he can mistake a piece of rope in bad light to be a snake, a jeeva which is just born into this world seems to have direct awareness of this world just as we adults have, and, in all day-to-day matters this seeming world and universe behave as good as realities, obeying complex laws.

So, for a new-born child to have the "jagan mithyA" state, it must have seen or have gained some idea about this world so as to have the mistaken feeling that this is for real just as the rope which is not snake is mistaken as snake. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that this universe is just a piece of rope, how come a child sees the sun, moon, sky,plants, rivers, oceans, birds, beasts, etc., in this rope, unless he has seen such a real rope-world before birth itself? That seems to me to be the issue. May be there are other ways of interpreting it.

In any case the mithyA statement can stick only if there is a reality somewhere similar to this visible world and which we all have knowledge of before coming into this world. If a person had not seen or heard about snake at all, how can he/she mistake a piece of rope in the night to be a "snake"?
 
There is nothing complicated about the rope snake analogy IMO. I think the rope snake analogy is only to drive home the point that a reality may be mistaken for something which it is not. In other words we see illusion because when reality is mistaken it is nothing but illusion. You may even not have seen that something else before. The point is reality is wrongly perceived. Just like spiritual truth is wrongly seen in the face of physical and mental realities.

It is my very humble opinion that so much unnecessary fine reading and twisting has gone into an anaolgy which was intended to drive home a simple point.
 
I shouldn't be posting here at all but on the other layman thread, but I have some doubts after reading SarmaJi's post so have to post here instead. If Jeeva is nothing other than Brahman then why/how is Jeeva always described as having maya-avidya?Then surely Nirguna Brahman should also have these maya-avidya combo? which won't be possible if Brahman is nirguna...

Another major doubt is at the end of the day, taking away all the big words, peeling away at all the layers isn't the core of Advaita essentially not disimilar to some atheistic thinking? Brahman is Nirguna (attributeless) and all is Brahman as there is nothing beyond Brahman, and as SarmaJi rightly put it "it just is". Thats it. Isn't a Nirguna Brahman the same as no Brahman. What is the point of a Nirguna Brahman anyway? He is not an all powerful supreme God that many theistic people tend to view their God as. He is completely attributeless not to mention Nirakara (formless).

It is like digging and digging for some treasure trove. And ok you found a box. You open it, another box, you open it, more boxes, you keep opening it and finally the last box. It is empty!!! This is what it "seems" like to me.

Another example. I'm not sure how many people know the story of The Emperor and his New Clothes. Everyone was praising his new clothes and how beautiful it is. A few people started off and all followed suit even though they couldn't see any new clothes. And finally a child said "but he is not wearing anything!". And it all came crumbling down.

Not knocking Advaita and I'm sorry if i appear to be. I'm just trying to understand.
 
I...., and as SarmaJi rightly put it "it just is". Thats it. Isn't a Nirguna Brahman the same as no Brahman. What is the point of a Nirguna Brahman anyway? He is not an all powerful supreme God that many theistic people tend to view their God as. He is completely attributeless not to mention Nirakara (formless)..
Wow Amala, you have cut to the chase, peeled the onion to the core and found nothing, the reason why Advaitees are referred to as pracchanna bouddha (bouddha in disguise).

You certainly belong in this thread as the other seems just full of personal speculations and pet theories. I am sure you are now going to be inundated with explanations galore, mostly with analogies and/or assertions. All of this will leave your head spinning and you would soon be wondering why did I even bother to ask.

brace yourself ...

best ...

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx
 
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Dear srimathi amala Ji,

I resolved that I will not post here either. But, let me give you my OPINION.

Jiva in it's ordinary state in the physical world does not know that it is Nirguna Brahman. One very important quality separates both from the relative point of view. That is avidya, which is intrinsic to the condition of Jiva. This is the reason the jiva, instead of knowing that it is Brahman, 'thinks' that it is seperate and worships Iswara, without understanding that Iswara is constructed through it's body and mind as seperate from itself, with Saguna. Hence the dualism.

Brahman is not 'nothing'. But it is not 'something' either, because whatever 'it' is, it is beyond name and form, beyond the gunas that make up the physical world.

Now one may ask, why this entity called Brahman goes through all this trouble of creating this world and plant the aspect of avidya along with it? No one knows. This is why saints always have said in our tradition that it is all God's leela or play.

Many, many yogis and mystics all over the globe, who have looked inside themselves have always said that Sat Chit Ananda exists and the Mahavakyas are true.

Now this will be my last post here, as I am no scholar. If you want to continue a dialog, you may post in the other thread.

Regards,
KRS
 
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Another major doubt is at the end of the day, taking away all the big words, peeling away at all the layers isn't the core of Advaita essentially not disimilar to some atheistic thinking? Brahman is Nirguna (attributeless) and all is Brahman as there is nothing beyond Brahman, and as SarmaJi rightly put it "it just is". Thats it. Isn't a Nirguna Brahman the same as no Brahman. What is the point of a Nirguna Brahman anyway? He is not an all powerful supreme God that many theistic people tend to view their God as. He is completely attributeless not to mention Nirakara (formless).

It is like digging and digging for some treasure trove. And ok you found a box. You open it, another box, you open it, more boxes, you keep opening it and finally the last box. It is empty!!! This is what it "seems" like to me.

Dear Amala,

I shouldnt be posting here too. I like your analogy about opening boxes and finally finding nothing.

Ok let me put it this way...we found a box and each time we open the box we find a bigger box in it and when we keep opening we keep finding a bigger box each time till the final box the biggest of all and you have found everything and thats Brahman.

(I know my post sounds like some sci fi but just try to imagine from opening a small box we keep getting bigger boxes till we are finally in space and finally beyond our imagination)

Amala I wont be posting here and may be we can continue this in the layman thread.

Just to add..each time we open the box of our mind the radius of our consciousness keeps increasing till it finally merges with the Brahman..so the boxes keep getting bigger.
 
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Another major doubt is at the end of the day, taking away all the big words, peeling away at all the layers isn't the core of Advaita essentially not disimilar to some atheistic thinking? Brahman is Nirguna (attributeless) and all is Brahman as there is nothing beyond Brahman, and as SarmaJi rightly put it "it just is". Thats it. Isn't a Nirguna Brahman the same as no Brahman. What is the point of a Nirguna Brahman anyway? He is not an all powerful supreme God that many theistic people tend to view their God as. He is completely attributeless not to mention Nirakara (formless).

A good post in the sense that it brings all the fence-sitters to the ring and join the chorus and compel the real knowledgeable advaitin (if there be someone here) to beat a hasty retreat. By my responding to this post, I have unequivocally included myself in the wannabe advaitin group and have no real knowledge of advaita. But is lack of knowledge restraining anyone from posting voluminous posts in this forum?

Let me take up the peeling away of the layers issue. Why does one peel the layers of vengayam? Hopefully to make vengaya sambhar. If the task on hand is making vadu mangai oorghai, why go about peeling onions? When Sankara says advaita is "moksha sadhana", I think he seriously meant the real seekers and not internet scholars like us.

I think Sankara clearly stipulated "sadhana chatushtaya" as a preparatory for advaita, and no one from this forum has given any indication that they have practised the preparatory. So we guys talking about advaita (that too for scholars - whatever that means) is like trying to break water into hydrogen and oxygen in school lab, without adding potassium permanganate and blaming the process.

It is like digging and digging for some treasure trove. And ok you found a box. You open it, another box, you open it, more boxes, you keep opening it and finally the last box. It is empty!!! This is what it "seems" like to me.

Is that not the real knowledge one needs? That unless someone has kept the gem hidden in the last treasure box, you are going to find it empty? The real place for one to work on for finding a gem in the absence of anything to the contrary is digging the earth and not opening up the boxes. It shows the reality.

Another example. I'm not sure how many people know the story of The Emperor and his New Clothes. Everyone was praising his new clothes and how beautiful it is. A few people started off and all followed suit even though they couldn't see any new clothes. And finally a child said "but he is not wearing anything!". And it all came crumbling down.

I do not how the story is relevant here, but the moral of the story is quite unambiguous. Do not be taken in by hard-sell advertisements, find out the truth for yourselves.
 
Dear srimathi amala Ji,

I resolved that I will not post here either. But, let me give you my OPINION.

Jiva in it's ordinary state in the physical world does not know that it is Nirguna Brahman. One very important quality separates both from the relative point of view. That is avidya, which is intrinsic to the condition of Jiva. This is the reason the jiva, instead of knowing that it is Brahman, 'thinks' that it is seperate and worships Iswara, without understanding that Iswara is constructed through it's body and mind as seperate from itself, with Saguna. Hence the dualism.

Brahman is not 'nothing'. But it is not 'something' either, because whatever 'it' is, it is beyond name and form, beyond the gunas that make up the physical world.

Now one may ask, why this entity called Brahman goes through all this trouble of creating this world and plant the aspect of avidya along with it? No one knows. This is why saints always have said in our tradition that it is all God's leela or play.

Many, many yogis and mystics all over the globe, who have looked inside themselves have always said that Sat Chit Ananda exists and the Mahavakyas are true.

Now this will be my last post here, as I am no scholar. If you want to continue a dialog, you may post in the other thread.

Regards,
KRS

Very well said Shri KRS.


The anology of opening the box and keep finding another box in it to atlast find an empty box with just our rational brain and viewing eyes, can not be simply analyzed to conclude that there is nothing like "Brahman". Finding "Brahman"/"The supreme purest consciousness"/"the absolute reality"/"The absoulte flawless and doubtless reality"/"the bliss" can not be attempted without Saadhana. The highest saadhana that we ordniray folks just with belief in God can never achieve without the necessary honest efforts. Shri Seshadri Swamigal, Shri RamaKrishna Paramhamsa, Shri Ragavendra, Shri Ramana Maharishi and many others could do saadhana and could explore the ultimate reality/bliss. For these mahaatmas keep openening boxes one after the other, keep peeling off the layers of onions etc.etc. have not disappointed them. They found the ultimate reality and the bilss by doing so unlike we ordinary folks rationally finding nothing by doing the same and relating this with "no brahman" as a reality with what we could find with our rational brains of desires and viewing eyes that is blindfolded with Maya.

Assuming we got a big gift box from one of our friends for your birthday. We get into the curiosity to open the box and find the best possible gift in it. When we open it we find an another box in it. We keep opening the box with the curiosity to find some gift. When unfortunately we find an empty tiny box at last, removing all other boxes one after the other, we would be mentally/emotionally get disturbed and behave as per each of ours basic human personality. Likewise we would keep peeling off the onion to find nothing, once done.


Whatever we do as above, we would be realizing, experiencing and feeling with all our desires and expectations. With such desires/expectations/feelings of wanting for the benefit of our senses, we would get our feelings hurt.


With such hurtful experiences due to desires/expectations we can not recognize whats the truth, whats the ultimate reality, whats the bliss. And at last we would try to achieve something or the other in any ways and means that can fulfill our desires and can satisfy our senses.

Saadhana is something that is beyond mere imagination of what it could be. Majority of we humans/Souls are into living this life in this physical world of Maya only to gain/acheive that can satisfy our ego/senses. This is the challenge that the soul has to undergo to refine itself and come out of illusions once for all in due course of realizations.

Nirguna Brahman - What is nirguna Brahman?. Is it mean "brahman" that has no sense at all/no gunas at all? Thats what the Advaita philosophy says. But a deeper interpretation and realization can reveal that, Nirguna Brahman constitues an energy that is free from ego and prejudices.The energy that is all pervading in the pretexts of SHOONYAM. What is Shoonyam? It's emptyness- Nothing Positive Nothing Negative; Nothing is known Nothing is unknown; Nothing is Pure Nothing is Impure; It is No Where and it is Everywhere. Nothing but Something. A state/energy that has nothing but has everthying to generate everything and destroy everything. Shoonyatha is Nirguna Brahman and Nirguna Brahman is Shoonyatha. Without something called Gnyaanam there can not be Agnyaanam and with out something called Agnyaanam there can not be Gnyaanam. Shoonyatha is the ultimate blissful state/energy that has no differentiations and no contradictions. It is the ultimate bliss that has the purest essence for creations, observance and destructions.

Saguna Brahman is a manifestation of Nirguna Brahmna to govern and lead the physical world of Maya. The lord appears time and again in this maya bhoo logam to show the path of liberation. The lord seems to take birth in this Maya world but that is just an illusion. His body is transcendental unlike our bodies that are created and destroyed.

The souls in this Maya Bhoo logam takes birth, gains understandings, realizes what is right and what is wrong, knowingly or unknowingly gets into accumulation of Karma, takes another birth, keeps exploring, tries to refrom and once could be free from Karma impacts, gets liberated and merges with SHOONYAM. To reach the state of Shoonyam, the soul undergoes Saadhana. The level of saadhana, the time taken, the realizations acheived are all a long and tiring process for each soul.

Spiritual evergies helps speeding up the process. The results of the spiritual energies by way of spiritual practices purely depends on the purity / realizations / thoughts / actions of the soul that could gradually overcome ego and prejudices.

Once the soul gets deep into spirituality, does realize that this physical maya world is nothing but just the tricks of Shoonyam (to challange the jivatmas), the soul turns out to be absolutely desireless soul, going beyond the divinity, finds onself as nothing but Shoonyam and attains the status of Jeevanmuktha.


Shri Nara,

Why do you feel that Amala would be wondering or repenting as why did she even bother to ask?

We should have the right mental make up, attitude and the right spirit to put forward our views, seek clarifications and counter argue to explore more. If we come over here with the motive to declare outself as the most knowledgeable, informative and absolutely correct and that, the rest of the opinions, views, analogies are zilch, then we can not expect any good and healthy discussions for the benefit of each one of us.

Personally I believe (would wish), Amala would not be repenting and would be happy to read in order to gain some knowledge from some explanations with anologies here from the believers of Advaita, who all would share their views / opinions / knowledge / understanding here.


Shri KRS, you have lot of knowledge in advaita and spiritual philosophies OR I can say that you have the best possible understanding and the skills to express them. But you are saying you would not be participating in this thread as you are not a Scholar. Dear Renuka also says that she would not be participating too for the same reasons, when she knows many things. If Shri Sravna too hang back on the same grounds, then who gonna come up here declaring onself as a scholar and educate laymen like myself? Who all are the shcolars here for whom this thread gonna be purpuseful to interprete many complicated/confusing aspects of Advaita philosophy and get into vaatham and prathivaatham in the right friendly spirit to deepen the understanding of each one of the scholars?


I am neither a scholar nor a well informaed person. But I could have some understanding for a long time having participated some discourses, very long time ago. I continue to question a lot within myself and try to get into reality as much as possible. With what ever I could understand I am expressing them here. I may be totally/paritally wrong or right but for sure I am honestly intended to learn and have better understanding through the members here.


If the discussion is on Advaita, IMHO the participation here would be healthy and meaningful if members here don't distinguish themselves as theists or atheists or agnostic. Let us cross question the members just on the topic - "Advaita Philosophy", to gain better understanding, if at all we are truly intended to gain knowledge in this subject, without posing the questions considering a group of members as Theist or Atheist or Agnostic.
 
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Dear Sri Ravi Ji,

Till about 25 and odd years ago, I was an Indian born American, climbing the Corporate ladder in America, and I was fortunate enough to have some leaders who understood my talents. But, in a very odd way, out of the blue one day, I saw and bought a book by one Osborne about the sage of Arunachala.

That book, I did put away for later reading. Took me almost 5 years before I read it. Did not make much impression.

And, after 6 more years, I was posted in India with a huge promotion, was a MD there. My wife, who was Jewish American, and the love of my life for 27 years, told me before going that she had a premonition that she should not go to India, because it would be bad. I dismissed her concern as nothing important. We lived there for a year, and when we came back to USA on home leave (we were expats there), we found out she had advanced cancer and I lost her within a couple of months.

I have two sons, and right after my loss, the next year, I was spending time with my eldest, who was living in a University town, where he was a Senior at college. He took me to a great book store in town, and I for some reason went to the Philosophy section. There I found a book titled 'Conversations with Ramana Maharishi', and I just opened the book at random. The book of course is in the Q&A format, and the page I opened had a direct reference about a person asking a question to the Maharishi about losing a wife! It was so pertinent to my emotional state at that time, I had to read more about this Bhagawan. And his teachings, which are essentially Advaitha based on his experience, resonated with me. I later learnt from my mom that my late dad also considered him as his Guru!

That is how I got acquanited with Advaitha. I have read lots of books on it since then, but I would not consider myself as a Scholar. Like you, I am just a novice (even though I have visited Ramanashramam several times and have done the walk around the holy mountain).

My tryst with Advaitha is not scholarly but rather pedestrian. I am totally convinced of it's Truth from my personal outlook. But that does not mean that I think that other philosophies are not valid.

For me, it is the Bhagawan always.

This is why, I would like to discuss these matters in the 'Layman' thread. Hope you understand.

Regards,
KRS
 
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Dear Sri Ravi Ji,

That is how I got acquanited with Advaitha. I have read lots of books on it since then, but I would not consider myself as a Scholar. Like you, I am just a novice (even though I have visited Ramanashramam several times and have done the walk around the holy mountain).

My tryst with Advaitha is not scholarly but rather pedestrian. I am totally convinced of it's Truth from my personal outlook. But that does not mean that I think that other philosophies are not valid.

For me, it is the Bhagawan always.

This is why, I would like to discuss these matters in the 'Layman' thread. Hope you understand.

Regards,
KRS

Shri KRS,

You have touched my heart with your so clear and straight forward statements. As you said each philosophy / school of thought has great insight into all these religious/spiritual philosophies.

I too love to get to know the different dimensions presented by different school of thoughts. And as you said, for me too, its allways Bhagawaan.


 
Thank you all for your replies. Some have been very helpful and others i need to take a big sieve to sieve what they are trying to say :)
 
Thank you all for your replies. Some have been very helpful and others i need to take a big sieve to sieve what they are trying to say :)
Dear amala,
Most of the replies have been 'big' save about a couple or more. one of them being a one liner.
What really matters finally is the size of holes, the size of the sieve only helps in deciding how much to process one time.
 
Mr Zebra,

The water analogy: When i touch water i get wet and i can drink it too. So no just because it is odourless, colourless doesn't mean there is no water.
 
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Smt. amala,

May I say, first of all, that my post in this thread was not because I consider myself a 'scholar' of/in advaita philosophy, but it was just to initiate some discussion in this thread which seemed to get few responses.

As a brahmana born into advaitin family, I developed some inquisitiveness about what this 'so-called' advaitam is. I read some books, purported to be espousing the advaita tenets but the net result was all that seemed high-faluting gibberish to me. So I stopped reading the books and started listening to discourses, both public and publicised as also old well-read persons who used to occasionally give their views on religious and philosophical topics in the privacy of their homes. (In typical Keralite brahmana mathams, there is usually an enclosed verandah or a southern side-room, called tekkEppura, where the old folks spent their after-lunch time till evening coffee, reading, reciting slokas or conversing like this.)

I have summarised my ideas about advaita in this post. (http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/8242-advaita-layman-3.html#post121945). I am also giving short comments on the points raised by you above.

I shouldn't be posting here at all but on the other layman thread, but I have some doubts after reading SarmaJi's post so have to post here instead. If Jeeva is nothing other than Brahman then why/how is Jeeva always described as having maya-avidya?Then surely Nirguna Brahman should also have these maya-avidya combo? which won't be possible if Brahman is nirguna...

Ramanuja, it seems put the very same question and raised objection saying that the locus of 'avidyA' (which is now called mAyA) is not clear. There are two answers to this given by advaithins, i.e., brahman is the locus, second, the jeeva is the locus. rAmAnuja says both answers are untenable, both answers are wrong. jeeva cannot be “avidyASRaya”, jeeva cannot be the locus of avidyA, because it will lead to anyOnyASRaya dOsha, it leads to the defect of mutual dependence. Why? The concept of jeeva is possible because of avidyA. What is jeeva? Jeeva is a product of avidyA; when avidyA comes in contact with consciousness, jeeva arises. And how then can it be said that avidyA is located in the jeeva which required avidya in the making stage?

If it is part of brahman, then brahman is no more 'nirguNa' because it has a characteristic.

Another major doubt is at the end of the day, taking away all the big words, peeling away at all the layers isn't the core of Advaita essentially not disimilar to some atheistic thinking? Brahman is Nirguna (attributeless) and all is Brahman as there is nothing beyond Brahman, and as SarmaJi rightly put it "it just is". Thats it. Isn't a Nirguna Brahman the same as no Brahman. What is the point of a Nirguna Brahman anyway? He is not an all powerful supreme God that many theistic people tend to view their God as. He is completely attributeless not to mention Nirakara (formless).

It is like digging and digging for some treasure trove. And ok you found a box. You open it, another box, you open it, more boxes, you keep opening it and finally the last box. It is empty!!! This is what it "seems" like to me.

It must be understood first that Sankara's advaita is very similar to the SUnyavAda of madhyamika buddhism. There is no ultimate reality, either mental or non-mental according to this school. The entire universe is unreal, like in a dream. The reality, if any, behind this unreal phenomenal universe is something is something which cannot be described by mental or non-mental analysis or analogy. Thus, the reality for the SUnyavAdin buddhist was beyond the ken of human mind and intellect to understand and/or experience. Sankara whose paramaguru, Gaudapada, leaned towards this buddhistic teachings in his mANDUkya kArikA, changed the matter and said the reality is nirguNa, thus transferring the incapacity of mind and intellect as per SUnyavAda, to the lack of any characteristic of the Reality. In a way Sankara was trying to best unite the upanishadic thoughts with his guru's teachings.

To put it simply, the ultimate Reality is beyond human ability to understand. So, in your simile, the last box contains something which is beyond your knowledge and ability to know or imagine even. To say that it was empty is not correct.

Another example. I'm not sure how many people know the story of The Emperor and his New Clothes. Everyone was praising his new clothes and how beautiful it is. A few people started off and all followed suit even though they couldn't see any new clothes. And finally a child said "but he is not wearing anything!". And it all came crumbling down.

Not knocking Advaita and I'm sorry if i appear to be. I'm just trying to understand.

Because many highly knowledgeable persons followed advaita and preferred not to go over to viSiShTAdvaita or dvaita, I have this feeling that advaita must have some inherent merit in itself. And I have tried to give what little I could learn from elders, in the other thread for layman.
I feel the emperor is a half-naked sanyasi here though some of us may be having the expectation of seeing a pompous emperor with a lot of regalia. The stage to categorically declare that "the emperor has no clothes" has not come, imho.



 
namaste everyone.

I am another 'pedestrian' advaitin, one who has personal conviction about advaita as the ultimate reality; so when conundrums of the type Sarma and Amala have pointed out arise, I would like to think around a way, with whatever lateral and rational thinking I can find.

• Sarmaji, is there any record of Sankara being aware of and giving a solution to the pre-existence problem (of the snake) that you have mentioned in post #2?

• Amala's top-down approach to opening boxes and peeling off layers and Renuka's bottom-up approach to the same problem are interesting in that Amala (seemingly) finds only emptiness at the end, while Renuia is all along conscious of all the boxes being the same in essence, although getting bigger and bigger with no sight of the ultimate container.

Let me try to add some fuel to keep the fire of discussion burning. I hope the members who know better would seek to give us any textual references to the ideas that shape up in our discussions.

• We peel the layers of reality around us (open boxes one by one in the other analogy) every night when we retire for sleep. The solid reality of the wakeful state dissolves into the shape-shifting reality of the dream state and finally to the blissful oblivion of the deep sleep state.

• What are we in that deep sleep state? Are we empty or full? Do we dissolve into the emptiness of the smallest box of the deep state or become full (although oblivious to us as yet) in that ultimate container?

• Since we see nothing and feel nothing in that state, what makes us spring back into the other layers of reality back and forth during sleep and more permanently when we are fully awake?

• If we add up all the deep sleep states of all jIvas, would it make a universal and homogeneous NirguNa Brahman? Would that be an atheistic, nihilistic NB--leaving all its manifestations to chance and chaos--or a pUrNa sat-chit-Ananda NB which is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent?

• Can we account for all the shapes and scenes of our dream world as being already familiar to us, like the snake in the rope? Why do see in dreams, people we have never met in life?

• Amalaji (wrt your post #19), let us consider space--AkAsha, instead of water. Do we get wet as we touch it? Do we drink it as our cells replicate? Are/Aren't we essentially that AkAsha that has filled up all the pots? Should that AkAsha be empty or full?

We constantly seek to peel our reality for a better glimpse, only in order to find lasting happiness, not emptiness, IMHO.
 
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Smt. amala,


Ramanuja, it seems put the very same question and raised objection saying that the locus of 'avidyA' (which is now called mAyA) is not clear. There are two answers to this given by advaithins, i.e., brahman is the locus, second, the jeeva is the locus. rAmAnuja says both answers are untenable, both answers are wrong. jeeva cannot be “avidyASRaya”, jeeva cannot be the locus of avidyA, because it will lead to anyOnyASRaya dOsha, it leads to the defect of mutual dependence. Why? The concept of jeeva is possible because of avidyA. What is jeeva? Jeeva is a product of avidyA; when avidyA comes in contact with consciousness, jeeva arises. And how then can it be said that avidyA is located in the jeeva which required avidya in the making stage?

If it is part of brahman, then brahman is no more 'nirguNa' because it has a characteristic.


I am venturing to give a reply to this which can be taken as a layman's understanding of advaita being put to the scrutiny of the scholars.

The question of locus of avidya is something that can be satisfactorily answered if avidya is given a positive color. Is it not avidya for a positive purpose which in my understanding, as I have elaborated in the other thread, used as a basis for brahman's knowledge being filled with truth?

When something is positive it cannot be used as a basis of diminishing that which creates it. The locus of avidya in my opinion is brahman and is used for a purpose.

I am not sure what Sankara's position is on this ? Would scholars throw some light on that too?
 
I am venturing to give a reply to this which can be taken as a layman's understanding of advaita being put to the scrutiny of the scholars.

The question of locus of avidya is something that can be satisfactorily answered if avidya is given a positive color. Is it not avidya for a positive purpose which in my understanding, as I have elaborated in the other thread, used as a basis for brahman's knowledge being filled with truth?

When something is positive it cannot be used as a basis of diminishing that which creates it. The locus of avidya in my opinion is brahman and is used for a purpose.

I am not sure what Sankara's position is on this ? Would scholars throw some light on that too?

You make the following statements:
  1. Is not avidyA used as a basis for brahman's knowledge being filled with truth?Here, there is the implication that the brahman's knowledge is not full and that it lacks truthfulness. Both these go against the definition of brahman itself, imho.
  2. The locus of avidya in my opinion is brahman and is used for a purpose.If avidyA is located in brahman, then we know that the brahman has a certain 'guNa' or characteristic, viz., it contains avidyA; hence It can no longer qualify for nirguNa brahman but can be considered only as saguNa brahman. This was one of the seven defects pointed out in the saptavidha anupapatthi by Ramanuja.
 
• Sarmaji, is there any record of Sankara being aware of and giving a solution to the pre-existence problem (of the snake) that you have mentioned in post #2?

Shri Saidevo,

As you know well Ramanuja came about 300 to 400 years after Sankara. During this interval, it looks as though nobody had the stature to question Sankara's teachings and just like the "party aNikaL" they were happy shouting "ki Jai" or "vAzhka" to advaita.

Hence Sankara did not have to face any questioning of his philosophy from the pov of Ramanuja; what he had to do was to defeat the likes of kumarila, mandana, etc., and this he could do well. Had Sankara faced Ramanuja during the former's lifetime, we don't know how he would have defended the position.

Most advaitins are satisfied with jeeva being brahma but afflicted by mAyA and are happy "mAyAmayam idam akhilam tyaktvaa brahmapadam tam praviSa", imho.
 
You make the following statements:
  1. Is not avidyA used as a basis for brahman's knowledge being filled with truth?Here, there is the implication that the brahman's knowledge is not full and that it lacks truthfulness. Both these go against the definition of brahman itself, imho.
  2. The locus of avidya in my opinion is brahman and is used for a purpose.If avidyA is located in brahman, then we know that the brahman has a certain 'guNa' or characteristic, viz., it contains avidyA; hence It can no longer qualify for nirguNa brahman but can be considered only as saguNa brahman. This was one of the seven defects pointed out in the saptavidha anupapatthi by Ramanuja.
1. I am not implying that brahman's knowledge is not full. Physical world being a projection of brahman, brahman doesn't depend upon the former in any way. All you are doing is seeing in the projection, which in a sense, being an unfolding of the absolute reality in the dimensions of space and time, how the truth is realized. I said avidya is the basis...., only in the sense, without creating the ignorance in the soul in the physical world, it does not learn and reach the realization. For example not realizing that being evil is self destructive and learning the truth through experiences. So you have to be evil and realize that it is not good.

2. By saying that avidya is the locus of brahman I only meant that brahman through maya created the ignorance. And it makes no sense to even a layman like me to say that brahman is totally void. It is IMO one of the thoroughly misinterpreted aspect of Sankara's advaita as how can eVerything come out of nothing? You have a paradox right? Can Sankara be considered so naive to frame such a concept of nirguna brahman? I can't help saying it is an irrelevant hairsplitting.
 
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