Abhivadhaye

[anandb]

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Just an aside (just to be read and ignored):

In southindia, amongst brahmins too marriage is permitted b/w the son/daughter of the father's sister (attai) and mother's brother (maama).

But look at what Manu smrithi says: The Laws of Manu XI

172. He who has approached the daughter of his father's sister, (who is almost equal to) a sister, (the daughter) of his mother's sister, or of his mother's full brother, shall perform a lunar penance.

173. A wise man should not take as his wife any of these three; they must not be wedded because they are (Sapinda-) relatives, he who marries (one of them), sinks low.

i wonder since when have ppl been following or not following manusmrithi amongst brahmins and southindians in general...

I have also read these along with other violent stuff from some other sutras. Again my reasoning is even an idiot will not give a totally contradictory passages within the same code of conduct he has written and that too to someone like Manu. I think only one set of rules can be true - either the good stuff he has written about women or the bad ones, not both. I take the good ones to be true in the context of what is said in the whole religion called Sanatana along with the actual code of conduct which practically existed during those times.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Anand,

Someone well versed in the scriptures pointed out to me that the dharma shastras prohibit women from studying and doing things independently. At that time I was arguing in favour of freedom of women in the vedas and justifying a seer's position who i thought did not see widows based on social reasons. I was disappointed when it was pointed out that its the very edicts of the dharmashastras that supposedly prohibit the company of widows. I will not elaborate on this further; all I wish to say is that if we blame it on the translator or anything else, we will be pulling wool over our own eyes.

Truth is, its tuf to accept that these interpolations exist. Instead of blaming anything else, i felt it was better for me to accept that these interpolations exist and move on. Sanskrit versions of smritis are available (i can send you a zip copy of some of them over email, i also have a sanskrit copy of jaimini's mimansa sutra). I do not agree with you that if smrtis are crap then srutis should also be crap.

Similarly (long before i argued with you on this forum) i had no answers when discussing animal sacifices in the vedas, with some learned people. Given that the overwhelming evidence in favour of its existence being true, i somehow came to reconcile that well, we cannot decide spirituality based on certain acts alone. I concluded somewhere inside my head that if animal scarifices existed, it might have been considered spiritual at that time, by sensibilites that prevailed then - so why judge it as per present day sensibilites or why judge it at all.

Somtimes its tuf to accept these things Anand, due to our own conditioning. But i have learnt over time that its better to accept such things exist or existed and simply move on.

Looks like no culture is perfect. We are still evolving.

Regards.

 

[venkatpasupathy]

Sirs,
I tend to agree with happyhindu. Tradition and culture evolve over a period of time. It may be true that there were interpolations of texts . But We have to move on.
Venkat

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Anand,

Somtimes its tuf to accept these things Anand, due to our own conditioning. But i have learnt over time that its better to accept such things exist or existed and simply move on.

Looks like no culture is perfect. We are still evolving.

Regards.

100 % true....

But one thing...as stated, perfection in these English verses as translations of Sanskrit scripts without any alterations and any sort of ambiguity may not be authenticated by any of us.

So it is very hard to determine whether no culture is perfect or it is really perfect and justifiable as per human life style from time to tome...

In general we all know that Girls are the most delicate and sensual humans. What ever advancements, legal aid, liberty exists among female community, females are still fragile some or the other way who all needs reasonable protection and care.

A man may suffer because of his own mistakes....But a female may suffer in her life even without any mistakes on her part...This is the only factor and is the fact that is distinguishing females from males in this present world where females are in par with males OR above males.

I think only because of strict regulations and many of the restrictions on females in the past administered by Hindus has helped us live a civilized life so far retaining our culture and tradition.

Off course many of the blind believes and cultural atrocities were eradicated by many social reformers and a refined culture has been adopted by all of us stage by stage.

But due to many of the needs and changes of the today’s Indians in general, I feel we are gradually loosing our identity and shortly would be in par with westerner’s life style. Where majority of people don't carry moral principles.

My botherations are not in particular but in general referring to every male and females of our traditional Indian/Hindu society.

Cheers.

RAVI

 

[anandb]

Dear HH

Dear Anand,

Someone well versed in the scriptures pointed out to me that the dharma shastras prohibit women from studying and doing things independently. At that time I was arguing in favour of freedom of women in the vedas and justifying a seer's position who i thought did not see widows based on social reasons. I was disappointed when it was pointed out that its the very edicts of the dharmashastras that supposedly prohibit the company of widows. I will not elaborate on this further; all I wish to say is that if we blame it on the translator or anything else, we will be pulling wool over our own eyes.

Truth is, its tuf to accept that these interpolations exist. Instead of blaming anything else, i felt it was better for me to accept that these interpolations exist and move on. Sanskrit versions of smritis are available (i can send you a zip copy of some of them over email, i also have a sanskrit copy of jaimini's mimansa sutra). I do not agree with you that if smrtis are crap then srutis should also be crap.

Similarly (long before i argued with you on this forum) i had no answers when discussing animal sacifices in the vedas, with some learned people. Given that the overwhelming evidence in favour of its existence being true, i somehow came to reconcile that well, we cannot decide spirituality based on certain acts alone. I concluded somewhere inside my head that if animal scarifices existed, it might have been considered spiritual at that time, by sensibilites that prevailed then - so why judge it as per present day sensibilites or why judge it at all.

Somtimes its tuf to accept these things Anand, due to our own conditioning. But i have learnt over time that its better to accept such things exist or existed and simply move on.

Looks like no culture is perfect. We are still evolving.

Regards.

I understand your point of view. I have read translations because I cannot read Sanskrit. I am arguing based more on reasoning than proof.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. When it is said that generally crime rate is low in the Gulf one major reason is the draconian law which exists here. I apply the same reasoning. If the shastras talk all about these regressive measures about women how come our history still talks about women who were learned and even engaged seers in debates and discussions. And if the Shastras were composed by all these seers certainly they date ages back which is still Vedic period for me and not just 2000 years back. Even assuming they dated 2000 years back we were supposed to be having this golden period till the advent of the Mughals with lot of women known for their bhakti, knowledge and valor. Meaning the shastras absolutely had no impact on the society in general. Which cannot be true because we know that people were more scripturally aware and acted on them during those times than now. That is why I am convinced that the Sruti and Smrti cannot be contradicting each other and has to give the same message to the society. You may call it conditioning, fine. I am not calling our culture as perfect but definitely much more perfect than other cultures. Culture should evolve but never get diluted.

 

[happyhindu]

I understand your point of view. I have read translations because I cannot read Sanskrit. I am arguing based more on reasoning than proof.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. When it is said that generally crime rate is low in the Gulf one major reason is the draconian law which exists here. I apply the same reasoning. If the shastras talk all about these regressive measures about women how come our history still talks about women who were learned and even engaged seers in debates and discussions. And if the Shastras were composed by all these seers certainly they date ages back which is still Vedic period for me and not just 2000 years back. Even assuming they dated 2000 years back we were supposed to be having this golden period till the advent of the Mughals with lot of women known for their bhakti, knowledge and valor. Meaning the shastras absolutely had no impact on the society in general. Which cannot be true because we know that people were more scripturally aware and acted on them during those times than now. That is why I am convinced that the Sruti and Smrti cannot be contradicting each other and has to give the same message to the society. You may call it conditioning, fine. I am not calling our culture as perfect but definitely much more perfect than other cultures. Culture should evolve but never get diluted.

i leave it to your understanding anand.

i was like you a few years back.

then came the understanding of cultures in different time periods and regions.

vedic times and northwest region was different for women (progressive ?)..
and times of the dharmashastras and the gangetic regions was a rather different era for women (regressive ?)...

anyways, its all like just a movie, just entertainment, nothing important...

regards.

 

[Nara]

Dear HH, Greetings!

Yes sir, its looks more probable that the women were historical figures than otherwise (to me).

I understand your POV. But as for myself, I am unable to gave it the same credence as later historical events for which we have better evidence. It is a shame those ancients did not leave us with solid records.

All said and done, ancient women of vedic era were definitely better off than their sisters anywhere else. Even in ancient Greece, the cradle of western philosophical tradition, women led a life that would make Manu proud.

This is an interesting paper that touches upon matronymics or female gothras: http://www.vidyaonline.net/arvindgup...ndopartone.pdf Kosambi takes a very critical view in that

Thank you for this reference, looks quite interesting. I will go through it. I am really intrigued there were female gothras.

Since you seem to take a more evidence based approach may I suggest you look into the nature of consciousness. There are many great videos on the web by people like Steven Pinker, Daniel Dennett, V.S. Ramachandran, etc.

Cheers!

p.s. I would be delighted if you refer to me as just Nara. Even my students here call me "hey man" But I leave it up to you if you are not comfortable with that level of informality.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Nara,

Dear HH, Greetings!

I understand your POV. But as for myself, I am unable to gave it the same credence as later historical events for which we have better evidence. It is a shame those ancients did not leave us with solid records.

All said and done, ancient women of vedic era were definitely better off than their sisters anywhere else. Even in ancient Greece, the cradle of western philosophical tradition, women led a life that would make Manu proud.

Am not sure if these can qualify as solid records (i suppose or hope they do):
a) Maitreyi upanishad, written by Maitreyi. A note in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad about Maitreyi.
b) Yami in rigveda: Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN X.Yama Yami.
c) A rig veda hymn written by lopamudra (found from google that its 1:179:1-6 but let me check).

If they were not physical historical characters, perhaps they are understood metaphorically as something else? Example: lopamudra as a state of vanished energy: Vaidik physics


Thank you for this reference, looks quite interesting. I will go through it. I am really intrigued there were female gothras.

Since you seem to take a more evidence based approach may I suggest you look into the nature of consciousness. There are many great videos on the web by people like Steven Pinker, Daniel Dennett, V.S. Ramachandran, etc.

Thankyou sir, will check out youtube.

Cheers!

p.s. I would be delighted if you refer to me as just Nara. Even my students here call me "hey man" But I leave it up to you if you are not comfortable with that level of informality.

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri. Anand, greetings!

This is pretty long but hope you care to read it.

Definitely! I learn only when I read, not when I write.

Vedic times held the women in high esteem. Scholarly women were known as brahmavadinis", women who had realized "Brahman". The Rig Veda was supposed to have been revealed to 18 women seers.

Going by whatever scant evidence that is available one can surely speculate that women of Vedic times were at a much better position compared to her sisters in other civilizations. From the internal textual evidence from Vedas this is not an empty speculation. But I hesitate to go so far as to say they were held in high esteem. I have not seen anything to suggest there were any women on par with highly esteemed male rishis.

Hinduism was the only religion with the concept of female deities.

The vedic gods were all males with Indra sitting on top. All the female deities are wives and depicted as subordinate to the husband. The great Sita, Iswari herself according to Vadakalai Sri Vaishnava sampradayam, declares to Ravana that she has the power to destroy him, but would not do so because that would be a blot on her husband's greatness. Yet Rama, after killing Ravana, puts Sita into a fire ordeal and later even banishes her, fully pregnant.

Whatever may be the origin, it is not a recent phinomenon that started after Islamic invasion. This was the condition of women long before that.

Let me end with a provocative statement. Liberation of women will come the day men stop thinking that they own their uterus .

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Found this:

1) Rishikaas - I

2) Rishikaas - II

3) Rishikaas - III

4) Rishikaas - IV

5) Rishikaas - V

Will try to get the exact verses that each of them wrote soon. The hyperlinks already provide the references for some of them.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Shri. Anand, greetings!



Definitely! I learn only when I read, not when I write.



Going by whatever scant evidence that is available one can surely speculate that women of Vedic times were at a much better position compared to her sisters in other civilizations. From the internal textual evidence from Vedas this is not an empty speculation. But I hesitate to go so far as to say they were held in high esteem. I have not seen anything to suggest there were any women on par with highly esteemed male rishis.




The vedic gods were all males with Indra sitting on top. All the female deities are wives and depicted as subordinate to the husband. The great Sita, Iswari herself according to Vadakalai Sri Vaishnava sampradayam, declares to Ravana that she has the power to destroy him, but would not do so because that would be a blot on her husband's greatness. Yet Rama, after killing Ravana, puts Sita into a fire ordeal and later even banishes her, fully pregnant.

Whatever may be the origin, it is not a recent phinomenon that started after Islamic invasion. This was the condition of women long before that.

Let me end with a provocative statement. Liberation of women will come the day men stop thinking that they own their uterus .

Cheers!

தற்காத்து தற்கொண்டார் பேணி தகை சான்ற
சொற்காத்து சோர்விலாள் பெண்
தற்காத்து: புறநகர் ரயில் வண்டிகளிலும் மாநகர பஸ் களிலும் உடன் பயணிக்கும் ஹீரோக்களின் பார்வைகளிலிருந்தும் சேட்டைகளிலிருந்தும் தன்னை பாதுகாத்துக்கொண்டு
தற்கொண்டான் பேணி : இரவு வேளையில் நேரம் கெட்ட நேரத்தில் நான்கு கால்களில் தவழ்ந்து வீடு வந்து சேரும் தன கணவனை பாது காத்து (அளவுக்கு மீறிய குடியால் வெளிப்படும் கழிவுகளை சுத்தம் செய்து என்று அர்த்தம்)
தகை
சான்ற சொற்காத்து : தன்னுடைய குழந்தைகளை வளர்த்து வரும் காலத்தில் இவர்கள் நற்குடிப்பிறந்தோர் என்று பிறர் கூறும் அளவுக்கு தன குடும்பத்தின் மானம் கப்பலேராமல் காத்து
சோர்விலாள்: இதற்கெல்லாம் மேலாக அலுவலகத்தில் pheromone கள் படுத்தும் பாட்டில் 24x7x365 மிதந்துகொண்டிருக்கும் சக அலுவலர்களுடன் வேலையும் செய்து குடும்பத்துக்காக பொருள் ஈட்டி, இவ்வளவும் செய்த பின்னும் இரவு கட்டிலுக்கு வரும்போது சோர்வில்லாதவளாக இருப்பவள் தான் பெண். இது வள்ளுவர் அன்றே தீர்க்க தரிசனத்துடன் சொன்ன வார்த்தைகள்.இப்போது சொல்லுங்கள் பெண் உயர்வா ஆண் உயர்வா என்று.

 

[Ramacchandran]

During Vedic Period every student was asked to add his Nakshatra and Rasi along with Gothra when concluding Namaskara!((V.S.Agarwala., India as known to Panini., University of Lucknow, 1953)

 

[RVR]

During Vedic Period every student was asked to add his Nakshatra and Rasi along with Gothra when concluding Namaskara!((V.S.Agarwala., India as known to Panini., University of Lucknow, 1953)

Sri Ramacchandran sir,

While I can accept the `Nakshatra', Rasi is not coming in any of our sankalpa mantra.

I believe a Nasa scientist of Indian origin believes that Rasi is a later addition through Greek influence.

Please enlighten me as to when Rasi was added to our system.

All the best

 

[Ramacchandran]

It is in Vedas! The Rasis are the Zodiac, the imaginary mathematical calculations of 360 Degrees of a circle!! each divided in to 30 DegX 12 Rasi, Each Rasi is divived in to 30-32 days, the moving of Sun, Dear Mr. Ramani, I completed the thesis that too about Vedic Astronomy and Hindu Calenders which has close association with our body, mind that is responsible of our growth, formation of diseases etc., Each Risis did thapas not on GOD Concentrated on the Universe, went in to the cosmos, dear Ramani I am getting Emotional when I type this news to you , is it easy to get a yogin power and how to attain it etc., the Vedas and gayathrai manthra shows the way, our Sam veda direct us how to spell and how to concentrate. It is not Greek but The Vedas were written in B.C. 30,000 went in to the sea, and people rushed to stay in mountains and moved to Indus, Iran/ Persia and Subramanya. In B.C. 8000 Zorathushtra came to west, at that time sea gave us Kerala, and Parasurama also came there, and it was a group of Risis who identified Rasis and Nakshatras. It was inscribed on a copper Plate and it was called Arabian magic Plate!!! The rasi and nakshatras are there in B.C.30,000.

Dear Ramani, Exactly one year after submitting my PhD paper, I will send the thesis to you by mail in PDF form and wish you to publish this in this forum and then arrage for a meeting where I will explain everything

 

[happyhindu]

During Vedic Period every student was asked to add his Nakshatra and Rasi along with Gothra when concluding Namaskara!((V.S.Agarwala., India as known to Panini., University of Lucknow, 1953)

Some inputs:

1) The book "India as known to Panini: a study of the cultural material in the Ashtadhayayi" was published in 1953, at a time when literature on when exactly was the "vedic period" was limited.

Owing to some discrepencies in that book, T.Venkatachary wrote his work: "A critique on Dr. Agrawala's India as known to Panini": http://openlibrary.org/b/OL15566004M/critique_on_Dr._Agrawala%27s_India_as_known_to_Panini.

2) The dating of Panini is controversial, and ranges from 1000 bc to 5 ad. The date generally accepted is 500-400 bc. This period was not the "vedic period". It was already the puranic age and the times when the dharmashastras started surfacing.

3) The rig is more of hyms by inspired bards. The period of rig is abt ~1500 BC (but believed to be based on life from abt 10K - 8K bc), and the Yajur is abt ~1000 bc. If there are references of people offering namaskarams to teachers or elders as described above in this period, wud be glad to know of them.

Owing to missing shakhas (only 2 shakhas of the atharvaveda have survived and bunches of the Rig and Samaved have disappeared), methinks, it wud be very hard to judge how life was like in the "vedic period" based on available literature.

 

[happyhindu]

It is in Vedas! The Rasis are the Zodiac, the imaginary mathematical calculations of 360 Degrees of a circle!! each divided in to 30 DegX 12 Rasi, Each Rasi is divived in to 30-32 days, the moving of Sun, Dear Mr. Ramani, I completed the thesis that too about Vedic Astronomy and Hindu Calenders which has close association with our body, mind that is responsible of our growth, formation of diseases etc., Each Risis did thapas not on GOD Concentrated on the Universe, went in to the cosmos, dear Ramani I am getting Emotional when I type this news to you , is it easy to get a yogin power and how to attain it etc., the Vedas and gayathrai manthra shows the way, our Sam veda direct us how to spell and how to concentrate. It is not Greek but The Vedas were written in B.C. 30,000 went in to the sea, and people rushed to stay in mountains and moved to Indus, Iran/ Persia and Subramanya. In B.C. 8000 Zorathushtra came to west, at that time sea gave us Kerala, and Parasurama also came there, and it was a group of Risis who identified Rasis and Nakshatras. It was inscribed on a copper Plate and it was called Arabian magic Plate!!! The rasi and nakshatras are there in B.C.30,000.

Dear Ramani, Exactly one year after submitting my PhD paper, I will send the thesis to you by mail in PDF form and wish you to publish this in this forum and then arrage for a meeting where I will explain everything

Sir,

Are you saying that Kerala was formed from the sea in 8000 BC?

On what basis do you say that the vedas were written in 30,000 bc?

Regards.

 

[Ramacchandran]

Dear HH! (His Holiness)

There are VERY VERY strong evidences and supportive lit are available!
I mentioned after the presentation and Viva I will post my thesis here!
It is the work of 15 years hard work and research! Day and night without sleep, yes I enjoyed that. I know what Vedas are and searching for words for presentation.

Will reply you soon!

 

[Raghy]

Dear HH! (His Holiness)

There are VERY VERY strong evidences and supportive lit are available!
I mentioned after the presentation and Viva I will post my thesis here!
It is the work of 15 years hard work and research! Day and night without sleep, yes I enjoyed that. I know what Vedas are and searching for words for presentation.

Will reply you soon!

Sri Ramaccandran,

I am exited to see your message. We will be very greatful to view your work. I am very glad that you chose to share it with us in the future. Thank you, Sir. Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

There are VERY VERY strong evidences and supportive lit are available!
I mentioned after the presentation and Viva I will post my thesis here!
It is the work of 15 years hard work and research! Day and night without sleep, yes I enjoyed that. I know what Vedas are and searching for words for presentation.

Will reply you soon!

Thankyou Shri Ramachandran ji. Look forward to it. When is your presentation?

Hope you have also done research on why various shakhas disappeared? Any inputs on that?

 

[narayananms]

hello
we intend undertaking a pilgrimage to tiruchendur/kanyakumari/suchindram/nava tirupaathi and other places. some one pointed out that there is natarajar temple near suchindram. can any one please let me know the exact route and the name of the place so that we can plan our trip accordingly.

thanks

narayanan ms