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A Wake up call for Tamil Brahmins

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Nacchinarkiniyan

Well-known member
We have been discussing the problems faced by the Brahmin community over and over again.

In one of the recent discussions a member had given a list of successful Brahmins. Pandey, Gokhale, Tilak, great Bengal patriots (in British Army), Nobels - Tagore, C.V.Raman, Chandrasekar, Raman Mohan Roy & Rajaji (Social reformers), Aryabhatta, Ramanujam, Anand. I wonder why he did not include Indira Nuyi and Vikram Pandit. And why are we forgetting R.Venkatraman who was the President of India.

To this list we can include Vashishta, Bharadwaja, Yagnavalkya and Dronacharya.

Of course that is not the point that I am making.

Did anyone of these men owe their success to the mere accident of birth as a Brahmin? Vasishta, Bharadwaja and Yagnavalkya became great Maharishis because of their learning. Dronacharya became great becuse of his knowledge and skill with weapons and the art of war fare.

We talk no end of how the Brahmins dominated the civil service. But how? Did they get selected to ICS and IAS because they were Brahmins? They wrote the qualifying examination and got the posts.

Vishwanthan Anand became a world chess champion because of his mastery over the game. Tagore got his Nobel prize because of his literary abilities. C.V. Raman and Chandrasekhar got the Nobel prize because they were great scientists. I can go on.

All the successful people have succeeded due to dedication and hard work.

The Civil Service examinations are still open to all. There is nothing preventing a Brahmin from getting selected. There is nothing preventing a Brahmin from being successful.


What you need is dedication and hard work.

My ancestors became rich because they went for English education even in the face of opposition from the traditional Brahmin society. They worked hard, were willing to travel, relocate and suffer hardship. They succeeded.

They were not given land for free by the kings because they were Brahmins. In fact the kings never did that. They gave lands only to those Brahmins who had in some way proved their merit. Other Brahmins were given free food in temples. That is all.

Many Tamil Brahmins of today are not willing to put in the hard work. They are not willing to relocate. They do not want to go our of their state. They are not willing to suffer hardship.

The Tamil Brahmins who are dedicated and are willing to work real hard and face hardship are even today successful in spite of being born a Brahmin.
 

Yamaka

New member
We have been discussing the problems faced by the Brahmin community over and over again.

In one of the recent discussions a member had given a list of successful Brahmins. Pandey, Gokhale, Tilak, great Bengal patriots (in British Army), Nobels - Tagore, C.V.Raman, Chandrasekar, Raman Mohan Roy & Rajaji (Social reformers), Aryabhatta, Ramanujam, Anand. I wonder why he did not include Indira Nuyi and Vikram Pandit. And why are we forgetting R.Venkatraman who was the President of India.

To this list we can include Vashishta, Bharadwaja, Yagnavalkya and Dronacharya.

Of course that is not the point that I am making.

Did anyone of these men owe their success to the mere accident of birth as a Brahmin? Vasishta, Bharadwaja and Yagnavalkya became great Maharishis because of their learning. Dronacharya became great becuse of his knowledge and skill with weapons and the art of war fare.

We talk no end of how the Brahmins dominated the civil service. But how? Did they get selected to ICS and IAS because they were Brahmins? They wrote the qualifying examination and got the posts.

Vishwanthan Anand became a world chess champion because of his mastery over the game. Tagore got his Nobel prize because of his literary abilities. C.V. Raman and Chandrasekhar got the Nobel prize because they were great scientists. I can go on.

All the successful people have succeeded due to dedication and hard work.

The Civil Service examinations are still open to all. There is nothing preventing a Brahmin from getting selected. There is nothing preventing a Brahmin from being successful.


What you need is dedication and hard work.

My ancestors became rich because they went for English education even in the face of opposition from the traditional Brahmin society. They worked hard, were willing to travel, relocate and suffer hardship. They succeeded.

They were not given land for free by the kings because they were Brahmins. In fact the kings never did that. They gave lands only to those Brahmins who had in some way proved their merit. Other Brahmins were given free food in temples. That is all.

Many Tamil Brahmins of today are not willing to put in the hard work. They are not willing to relocate. They do not want to go our of their state. They are not willing to suffer hardship.

The Tamil Brahmins who are dedicated and are willing to work real hard and face hardship are even today successful in spite of being born a Brahmin.

In my mind TBs ARE successful community.... in spite of the awful historical facts of Caste Hierarchy...

1. They were the Architects of Hinduism and Orthodoxy... but again they were the ones who left the Temples and go to higher education, against their own teachings!.

2. They were the first to co-operate with the British to rule the British Raj.

3. They positioned themselves well to reap all the rewards from the Britishers...

4. In spite of Dravidian Movement, Tamil Brahmins who make up just about 8-10% of the entire TN population, they control and dominate nearly 30% of the Private Economy..

Most Tamil Brahmins ARE doing economically very well.....there may be about 15% poor Brahmins, who can be helped very well by the booming private sector.... and is happening... talk to TVS people.

I don't see any problem at all!

Perhaps, TBs with their inner drive they want to dominate the Public Sector AND Politics!

That also will happen if they re-evaluate their Political Ideology!

Again, do they want to assimilate with the Society as ONE or do they want to exist as Distinct Community - a sore thumb?

That's a political question, not an economic question, IMO.
 
OP
OP
Nacchinarkiniyan

Nacchinarkiniyan

Well-known member
Yamaha,

Your reply has no relevance to the topic. My emphasis was on enterprise and hardwork.

You have given your opinion on how the Brahmins came to dominate. I beg to differ becuase your opinion is not based on history. I have given a detailed reply. But this is not to start a discussion about how the Brahmins came to dominate. I am not interested in Pazhiya Kathai.

I am giving a call for the Tamil Brahmins to wake up and realize the necessity for enterprise and hard work.

In my mind TBs ARE successful community.... in spite of the awful historical facts of Caste Hierarchy...

As historian Ifran Habib pointed out in the recent Marxist conference, it is the rulers of India who were responsible for the continuation of the Caste Hierarchy. Right from the days of Nandas (who were Sudras), Chandragupta Maurya to the days of Independence, no ruler wanted to change the Caste Hierarchy. The only exception was king Sahu of Kolhapur. The rulers of India including the present ones are not interested in changing or abolishing the Caste system.

1.They were the Architects of Hinduism and Orthodoxy... but again they were the ones who left the Temples and go to higher education, against their own teachings!.

Brahmins were not dependent on temples. Their Kula Thozhil was not temple priesthood. In fact the temple Brahmin community is a separate sub caste. Kurukkal. They did not leave the temples and take to English education. That is why they are now backward compared to other sub castes.

By the way when everyone wants to leave his kula thozhil like carpentry, mason etc. Why not the Brahmins? Most of the Brahmins did not have a Kula Thozhil. In fact the caste system did not provide a earning profession for the Brahmins. All of them could not be priests. The lack of any traditional profession made Brahmins take to English education.

The basic duty of a Brahmin is to acquire knowledge and transmit it. Acquiring English education was part of acquiring knowledge.

2. They were the first to co-operate with the British to rule the British Raj.

The first people to cooperate with the British were the native rulers none of whom were Brahmins. They wanted to retain their kingdom and used the East India Company to settle old scores with other kings. They remained loyal to the British till the end. Then we had the jamindars, jagirdars and the land owning classes who collaborated with the British to retain their lands and privileges. Brahmins were only government servants.

If you read the history of Madras you will find how the trading community benefited by trading with the east India company. It was long before the British started ruling India. The Indians acted as customs agents and intermediaries for sale of goods from England. There were no Brahmins involved in this trading activity.

Brahmins have played a big role in the inndependence movement when compared to their percentage in the population. A sizable number of the people imprisoned in Andamans were Brahmins.

3. They positioned themselves well to reap all the rewards from the Britishers...

The people who reaped the maximun benefit were the rulers and the land owning classes. That is why they opposed independence. The trading community also gained a lot.

4. In spite of Dravidian Movement, Tamil Brahmins who make up just about 8-10% of the entire TN population, they control and dominate nearly 30% of the Private Economy..

Many communities have a bigger share of the wealth than their size in population. The Naidus dominate Coimbatore. The Gownders dominate Pollachi and Tirupur. The Chettiars dominate Karaikudi.

All these communities are doing very well because of their enterprise and hard work.

That is the message of my post. Enterprise and hardwork succeeds.


Most Tamil Brahmins ARE doing economically very well.....there may be about 15% poor Brahmins, who can be helped very well by the booming private sector.... and is happening... talk to TVS people.

I don't see any problem at all!

Perhaps, TBs with their inner drive they want to dominate the Public Sector AND Politics!

That also will happen if they re-evaluate their Political Ideology!

Again, do they want to assimilate with the Society as ONE or do they want to exist as Distinct Community - a sore thumb?

That's a political question, not an economic question, IMO.

Why don't you ask Shiv Nadar about how he succeeded. Many communities like Chettiars, Gownders and Naidus to name a few have gained economically. Have you ever visited Coimabatore, Tirupur, Thiruchengode, Pollachi, Karaikudi?

Most of the Brahmins are not interested in political domination. They understand that in a democracy where votes count, they have no chance. Of course some vested groups try to promote their own agenda.

The average Brahmin is happy to be successful in his profession and make money. Of course this is what most of the Indians want.

About assimilation, does any community in India want to get assimilated and lose its identity. The fact is because of the reservation policy more and more communities are rediscovering their individual identities.

No Indian whether he is a Brahmin or a Dalit can be successful unless he has enterprise and puts in hard work. There are no free lunches. The only people who can be successful without this are those who belong to the dynasties. The royal dynasties earlier. The industrial and political dynasties now.
 

Yamaka

New member
Yamaha,

Your reply has no relevance to the topic. My emphasis was on enterprise and hardwork.

You have given your opinion on how the Brahmins came to dominate. I beg to differ becuase your opinion is not based on history. I have given a detailed reply. But this is not to start a discussion about how the Brahmins came to dominate. I am not interested in Pazhiya Kathai.

I am giving a call for the Tamil Brahmins to wake up and realize the necessity for enterprise and hard work.



As historian Ifran Habib pointed out in the recent Marxist conference, it is the rulers of India who were responsible for the continuation of the Caste Hierarchy. Right from the days of Nandas (who were Sudras), Chandragupta Maurya to the days of Independence, no ruler wanted to change the Caste Hierarchy. The only exception was king Sahu of Kolhapur. The rulers of India including the present ones are not interested in changing or abolishing the Caste system.



Brahmins were not dependent on temples. Their Kula Thozhil was not temple priesthood. In fact the temple Brahmin community is a separate sub caste. Kurukkal. They did not leave the temples and take to English education. That is why they are now backward compared to other sub castes.

By the way when everyone wants to leave his kula thozhil like carpentry, mason etc. Why not the Brahmins? Most of the Brahmins did not have a Kula Thozhil. In fact the caste system did not provide a earning profession for the Brahmins. All of them could not be priests. The lack of any traditional profession made Brahmins take to English education.

The basic duty of a Brahmin is to acquire knowledge and transmit it. Acquiring English education was part of acquiring knowledge.



The first people to cooperate with the British were the native rulers none of whom were Brahmins. They wanted to retain their kingdom and used the East India Company to settle old scores with other kings. They remained loyal to the British till the end. Then we had the jamindars, jagirdars and the land owning classes who collaborated with the British to retain their lands and privileges. Brahmins were only government servants.

If you read the history of Madras you will find how the trading community benefited by trading with the east India company. It was long before the British started ruling India. The Indians acted as customs agents and intermediaries for sale of goods from England. There were no Brahmins involved in this trading activity.

Brahmins have played a big role in the inndependence movement when compared to their percentage in the population. A sizable number of the people imprisoned in Andamans were Brahmins.



The people who reaped the maximun benefit were the rulers and the land owning classes. That is why they opposed independence. The trading community also gained a lot.



Many communities have a bigger share of the wealth than their size in population. The Naidus dominate Coimbatore. The Gownders dominate Pollachi and Tirupur. The Chettiars dominate Karaikudi.

All these communities are doing very well because of their enterprise and hard work.

That is the message of my post. Enterprise and hardwork succeeds.




Why don't you ask Shiv Nadar about how he succeeded. Many communities like Chettiars, Gownders and Naidus to name a few have gained economically. Have you ever visited Coimabatore, Tirupur, Thiruchengode, Pollachi, Karaikudi?

Most of the Brahmins are not interested in political domination. They understand that in a democracy where votes count, they have no chance. Of course some vested groups try to promote their own agenda.

The average Brahmin is happy to be successful in his profession and make money. Of course this is what most of the Indians want.

About assimilation, does any community in India want to get assimilated and lose its identity. The fact is because of the reservation policy more and more communities are rediscovering their individual identities.

No Indian whether he is a Brahmin or a Dalit can be successful unless he has enterprise and puts in hard work. There are no free lunches. The only people who can be successful without this are those who belong to the dynasties. The royal dynasties earlier. The industrial and political dynasties now.

Hello Nacchi:

My observation is relevant because I don't see a problem, unlike your post which claims "Many Tamil Brahmins of today are not willing to put in the hard work. They are not willing to relocate. They do not want to go our of their state. They are not willing to suffer hardship."

My argument is this assertion is fundamentally flawed.
While I want to see the whole picture, you say, "I am not interested in Pazhiya Kathai."

That's fine with me...

My feeling is as any other community TBs ARE meticulous and hardworking, and ARE moving up the ladder as always.

So, I feel, there is no problem as such...

Are you not CREATING a problem which is non-existent in the first place?

Cheers.
 

sangom

Well-known member
Hello Nacchi:

My observation is relevant because I don't see a problem, unlike your post which claims "Many Tamil Brahmins of today are not willing to put in the hard work. They are not willing to relocate. They do not want to go our of their state. They are not willing to suffer hardship."

My argument is this assertion is fundamentally flawed.
While I want to see the whole picture, you say, "I am not interested in Pazhiya Kathai."

That's fine with me...

My feeling is as any other community TBs ARE meticulous and hardworking, and ARE moving up the ladder as always.

So, I feel, there is no problem as such...

Are you not CREATING a problem which is non-existent in the first place?

Cheers.

Y,

Nacchinarkkiniyan probably refers to those TBs who are reluctant still to relocate, to do hard work, etc. I believe there are some tabras even now in this category.
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
Dear Sir,

With due respect, i wud have given this thread a miss. However, there are a few points i wud like to make since am asked by a reader to make some clarifications. I have no intention of making posts further to this one. Any further points raised will be clarified in an other thread.

As historian Ifran Habib pointed out in the recent Marxist conference, it is the rulers of India who were responsible for the continuation of the Caste Hierarchy. Right from the days of Nandas (who were Sudras), Chandragupta Maurya to the days of Independence, no ruler wanted to change the Caste Hierarchy. The only exception was king Sahu of Kolhapur. The rulers of India including the present ones are not interested in changing or abolishing the Caste system.
Mauryas started the feudal system - please see this post. Chandragupta Maurya may have been the king but the king-maker was the brahmin Chanakya.

Pushyamitra Sunga assasinated the Mauryan ruler Brihad-ratha and became the king himself. Pushyamitra Sunga positioned himself as a brahmin though the sacred thread is missing in his statue.

Pushyamitra's origins are dubious, yet he claimed to be a brahmin after getting state power in his hands, just like rulers after him. Manusmrithi was written in the reign of Pushyamitra Sunga.

After Sungas, came the Kanva dynasty who also were brahmins or claimed to be brahmins. After Kanvas came the Satavahanas who too made brahmin pretensions (they left an inscription in nashik claiming to be brahmins); although, the Katha Saritsagara states Satavahana (the dynasty's founder) was the son of a Yaksha.

Considering satavahana metronymics (taking names after their mothers like gomatiputra, haritiputra), imo they were Svapakas. This wud agree with the puranic view that the Andhras / Satvahanas were outcast svapaka sons of Vishwamitra.

Svapakas are designated in Manusmrithi as those born from Kshatri slave fathers + Ugra mothers. And Ugras are designated as those born from kshatriya fathers + shudra mothers. So if the ugra females took the gotras of their kshatriya fathers, it wud make sense that the Satavahanas borrowed it as metronymics.

It wud seem that after Pushyamitra, subsequent hindu rulers with ambitions of ashvamedha sought dvija status. Kings and priests elevating each other to dvija status IF the king supported brahmanical sacrifices turns out to be a recurrent theme.

Additionally, there remains a possibility (although there is no concrete proof) that the proponents of smrithis with their version of varna-social-organisation entered india during the Kushan Dynasty, and spread down south.

I fully agree with Irfan Habib that rulers of India were responsible for 'continuation' of the Caste Hierarchy. Same holds true for Cholas, Pallavas, Pandyas, etc all of whom with their 'brahmin' status (or such pretensions) or brahmanical patronisation sought to keep birth-based occupational categories going intact.

Why wud such brahmanical or brahamized rulers ever think of changing or abolishing the caste system. It benefitted them.

Am making this point since your post seems to implicate rulers and leave brahmins alone. The claim that "The rulers of India including the present ones are not interested in changing or abolishing the Caste system" -- is a nonsequitur wrt to the latter. Present day politicians are no less looters than the kings of yore who looted each other's territories.

Those who can make a difference at the grassroots level, which are the religious institutions, did not and perhaps till date do not want to change or abolish the caste system. Apart from the situation with politicians, this too is the reality.

Brahmins were not dependent on temples. Their Kula Thozhil was not temple priesthood. In fact the temple Brahmin community is a separate sub caste. Kurukkal. They did not leave the temples and take to English education. That is why they are now backward compared to other sub castes.

By the way when everyone wants to leave his kula thozhil like carpentry, mason etc. Why not the Brahmins? Most of the Brahmins did not have a Kula Thozhil. In fact the caste system did not provide a earning profession for the Brahmins. All of them could not be priests. The lack of any traditional profession made Brahmins take to English education.

The basic duty of a Brahmin is to acquire knowledge and transmit it. Acquiring English education was part of acquiring knowledge.
This portion of the post am making for Yamaka as well as others who are not able to differentiate between smarthas and temple-priests.

There is no such thing as a Brahmin caste with Gurukkals as a "sub-caste". Brahmin is a varna not a jaathi. From the historical pov, jathi and varna are 2 different things. But from the hindu theology / smrithi pov, they are the same. Imo, it is the smrithi proponents of varna who seek and always sought to replace brahmin varna into brahmin jaati.

The Gurukkals are temple-priests. Temple-priests follow agamas, not vedas (there is no idol worship in vedas). Gurukkals follow Saiva Siddhanta, not advaita (interested folks should ask Saiva Siddhanta followers themselves what they think of Advaitha). Importantly, Gurukkals need not follow smrithis. The term to refer to Gurukkals was "Sivacharya" and not "Brahmin". But ofcourse of late they claim to be vadamas equal in status to smartha 'brahmins'.

The Gurukkals are heredity priests in major temples. True they have not taken to english education much and have stuck to priesthood. However, i do not know how they can be designated backward, except for economic backwardness in some places.

IMO the claim that "caste system did not provide a earning profession for the Brahmins" is just a claim without basis.

The first people to cooperate with the British were the native rulers none of whom were Brahmins. They wanted to retain their kingdom and used the East India Company to settle old scores with other kings. They remained loyal to the British till the end. Then we had the jamindars, jagirdars and the land owning classes who collaborated with the British to retain their lands and privileges. Brahmins were only government servants.
Native rulers were no longer 'rulers', as British took over ownership of all land holdings. Land ownership rules and tenures changed under the British. All the mirasdars in the tamil districts under colonial rule were brahmins (i have yet to complete the posts on the aarakshan thread, so please wait for the details). The first people to work in British offices and cooperate with the British were Brahmins. Mackenzie's assistants were brahmins as well.

If you read the history of Madras you will find how the trading community benefited by trading with the east India company. It was long before the British started ruling India. The Indians acted as customs agents and intermediaries for sale of goods from England. There were no Brahmins involved in this trading activity.
The ayyavole guild is stated to have brahmin traders in it. All the same it makes no diff if trading was done during colonial rule or earlier. Because it just takes a couple of generations or lesser, for reversal of fortunes. Especially for traders and land owners who lacked education themselves and could not provide the same for their progeny.

The people who reaped the maximun benefit were the rulers and the land owning classes. That is why they opposed independence. The trading community also gained a lot.
Sir, i hope you can provide some back-up material for this claim.

Many communities have a bigger share of the wealth than their size in population. The Naidus dominate Coimbatore. The Gownders dominate Pollachi and Tirupur. The Chettiars dominate Karaikudi.

All these communities are doing very well because of their enterprise and hard work.

That is the message of my post. Enterprise and hardwork succeeds.

Why don't you ask Shiv Nadar about how he succeeded. Many communities like Chettiars, Gownders and Naidus to name a few have gained economically. Have you ever visited Coimabatore, Tirupur, Thiruchengode, Pollachi, Karaikudi?
Sorry sir, but i think it is utter falsity to claim without proof that "Many communities have a bigger share of the wealth than their size in population". Infact the same charge (without proof) can be made of brahmins running industries like TVS, India Cements, Sanmar, Amalgamations, Royal Enfield, Pothys;, etc. It is also openly known that employment in places like TVS is favored for brahmins.

Am of opinion that some people are prosperous in some places. That does not make everyone of one community prosperous in all places.

Even within one family i find people ranging from wealthy businessmen to bus conductors. The rich don't support the poor calling them or their father lazy, incapable, good for nothing, etc. I do not find motivational talks on hard work and enterprise given in the name of caste. This ofcourse does not mean am against anyone indulging in the same.

What i do find is, irrespective of caste, if one is capable or deserving, some such people seem to get help. From a coimbatore businessman i got this sound byte -- "Business is Business. If you confuse it with caste, you will make a loss".

Most of the Brahmins are not interested in political domination. They understand that in a democracy where votes count, they have no chance. Of course some vested groups try to promote their own agenda.
Not seeking political domination is perhaps your individual opinion. Even religious people start political parties with a fist these days.

Regards.
 

sangom

Well-known member
Originally posted by HappyHindu

There is no such thing as a Brahmin caste with Gurukkals as a "sub-caste". Brahmin is a varna not a jaathi. From the historical pov, jathi and varna are 2 different things. But from the hindu theology / smrithi pov, they are the same. Imo, it is the smrithi proponents of varna who seek and always sought to replace brahmin varna into brahmin jaati.

The Gurukkals are temple-priests. Temple-priests follow agamas, not vedas (there is no idol worship in vedas). Gurukkals follow Saiva Siddhanta, not advaita (interested folks should ask Saiva Siddhanta followers themselves what they think of Advaitha). Importantly, Gurukkals need not follow smrithis. The term to refer to Gurukkals was "Sivacharya" and not "Brahmin". But ofcourse of late they claim to be vadamas equal in status to smartha 'brahmins'.

The Gurukkals are heredity priests in major temples. True they have not taken to english education much and have stuck to priesthood. However, i do not know how they can be designated backward, except for economic backwardness in some places.

Smt. HappyHindu,

I agree with you that the Gurukkals are different from the general Brahmins, not only those who called themselves as "smaartas" but also the Vaishnavites of Tenkalai, Vadakalai and Madhwa following.

What I have understood from the writings of Agnihotram Ramanuja Thathachariar is that the Gurukkals were the priests in many of the temples in Tamil Nadu at one point of time. The Brahmins (veda-following people) came in and said that the pooja (a morph of the original Tamil words "poo Sei" or 'adorn with flowers') and made the Gurukkals into subordinate priests waiting outside the sanctum and chanting verses and mantras in praise of the deity, while the vedic brahmin priest (the main priest) only had access to the sanctum sanctorum, and the right to touch and perform the pooja rites.

Whether the priests who usurped the Gurukkals' role then have subsequently intermarried with the Gurukkals, whether the new-comer priest community also was degraded by the rest of the vedic brahmins, and whether, as a consequence, all those who took to the priestly occupation got classified and lowered in status as Gurukkals is not clear.

I am not aware whether the Gurukkal community is completely backward economically. I would expect the priests of many prosperous temples at least to be quite rich because they have a steady source of good income.

IMO the claim that "caste system did not provide a earning profession for the Brahmins" is just a claim without basis.

Here we have to be clear about what we mean by "profession". The smritis imo create a position for brahmins in the social set-up which can be viewed either as people who beg (bhikshaam dehis) or the highest overlords to whom all the other limbs of the society are required to pay tributes so that the brahmin is assured of his necessities. But history tells about rich brahmins also and hence we have to accept the fact that the brahmin was interested in accumulating wealth, contravening the dictat of smritis.
 
OP
OP
Nacchinarkiniyan

Nacchinarkiniyan

Well-known member
Let us get back to the original post I had made. I wonder how by exhorting the Brahmins to be more enterprising and hard working I have created a problem.

The problem that exists is that a sizable percentage of Brahmins are not well off. We have discussed the means and ways that the community as a whole could help the not so fortunate of our Brahmin brethren.

When we were young it was drilled into us that we have got to study well. That was the top priority. There were no relaxations in that aspect. Generally that was the norm followed by the community. But even in those days not all the people did well in studies. A number of boys in our village never got past the SSLC. They did not do well in life later.

In life not everyone has the right kind of intelligence to pass examinations. Brahmins are no exception in spite of all claims to the contrary.

The Brahmins unlike other communities did not have a fallback option. They did not become traders or take to other professions. O f course there were some people who did take to trading and started hotels. In trading they mostly took to dealing in textiles. Some of the sub castes had almost a monopoly in trading.

It is time that the community thought of other alternative forms of earning a living.

It is time that we thought of other courses than engineering. Just by getting admission to a not well known engineering college and getting an engineering degree does not assure anyone of a bright future.

There are boys and girls in BPOs who are earning a much higher salary than msot of the engineers.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
nacchi,

i think in addition to hard work, a 'street smart' or 'political savvy' is needed.

let me give you some examples of relatives. one passed out of kerala university, msc in physics, gold medal. took a job in aecl, trombay and worked his way up through the govt scales. had an ordinary middle class life.

another cousin, came out only in 1st class biology, but managed to borrow some money for airfare, get admitted + tuition waiver, stipend, in some 3rd grade usa university. did her phd there, and then moved to a 1st rate university for a post phd name brand degree, which boosed her candidature to cutting edge biotech usa companies. now a v.p.

another male relative, barely bassed chem engg in annamalai university. but was captain of school team, and a great p.r. person. managed to get job in ioc india, leveraged to get job in mid east. rolling in money now. btw when he was in ioc baroda, i visited him, and he pointed to a seat in the corner. reserved for the gold medallist in class, a nerd, who had absolutely no dress or social skills.

so, today we need an all round ability. most of the jobs do not not great intellect. in fact if you are brainy, it is almost a handicap, as soon you find the job boring, or get arrogant to tee off your boss.

our tambram kids should get involved in team sports like soccer, volleyball or basketball - cheap but involves the concept of goal oriented team approach, sharing and above all learning the concept that the team is always more important than the individual.

narrow book level competition to come 'first in the class' is of little use in the long term strategy for life.

also body building is a good idea. one cannot underestimate the confidence that comes out of 'six pack' and the rest of the body to go along with it. along with the same, comes the natural grooming desires, and the old oily greasy hair and timid walk, is replaced with a better hair dressing, clothes and a confident walk. one does not have to break the bank for such. a few weights, buskis and pushups will do the trick.

i think also a need to project aggressiveness is needed. all of us are born with an inborn aggressivenss, which we use as children to protect our rights and space. over the years, this gets beaten out of the system, i think, thanks to tambram's inherent timidity. the result is that the kids may be bulllied. often, i find, that a projection of strength is enough to keep bullies at bay, and also build more self confidence.

just some thoughts to add to your list..thank you
 
I

Iyer

Guest
Dear Sri Nachinarkiniyan,Greetings. I agree with you that success essentially requires enterprise and hardwork. There is no substitute for hardwork and there is no short cut for success.But I fail to understand the objective and purpose of this wake up call to Brahmins in particular. There are successful people and failures in every caste, community and people group.Besides hardwork and enterprise there are so many factors influencing success. Moreover the word success has come to have a relative connotation. What is success to one is not success to another. One common pursuit among Tamil Brahmins is to land in a good job in America and earn in American dollars, to become an American citizen and settle in America. They would even break traditions towards realizing this objective, aim and ambition in life. Many brahmin guys have married American women to become citizens of USA. Some have married women from other communities and religion to realize their dreams. For the Brahmin youth of today, the purpose in life is not to live as Brahmins should and would. In fact they care two hoots about their Brahmin roots and identity. Hardly anyone bothers about conducting Brahmopadesam to their kids. Even if they do, the kids hardly perform sandhyavandhan. In such scenario, I wonder how your clarion call would be responded !!! Almost every brahmin youngster who has landed in a job in America, has compromised with brahmin customs, practices and values, has thrown into the wind all these. They want to walk american, talk american etc etc. Most brahmins who have landed in america have turned non-vegetarians for at least 2 reasons : Vegetarian food is difficult to get and costly; Non-vegetarian food is cheaper, easily available and they like the taste. They hardly know 1 word in sanskrit let alone atleast 1 sloka.There are many more things I can add to the list. I wonder if the Brahmin community would ever exist in a few decades from now.Please ponder over this and provide me your feedback.Regards,Iyer
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
The Brahmins unlike other communities did not have a fallback option.
Dear Shri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji,

Other communities had no fallback options, unlike brahmins who always have / had the option to go for vedic studies, offer homams / rituals to others and earn some money that way. Brahmins were never in the same category as those who had to do odd jobs to accumulate money to start a petty business.

Anyways, sir, am sorry to have made my posts on this page. Some points you made in your post were untrue, so when it was pointed out, thot it better to give an other perspective on this page itself. Thanks.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
Iyer,

Much as your queries to nacchi are noted, I would like to intervene on one issue, where I think, you have a gross misunderstanding. Based on this point alone, I think, many of your assumptions or fears, may turn untrue.

You have quoted, ‘Vegetarian food is difficult to get and costly; Non-vegetarian food is cheaper, easily available and they like the taste’

if one likes the taste, one does not have to go to north America to get non veg food. Freely available in Chennai itself.

Iyer, north America, is a vegetarian’s paradise. Not only are all the food that is familiar to us available and cheap. Yes cheap. But also, we have a whole world of other vegetarian cuisines open to us freely – Italian, Mexican, Chinese stir fry, salads of varieties that not imaginatble in india, stews, soups, etc etc.

:)
 

Nara

Well-known member
....Iyer, north America, is a vegetarian’s paradise.
What Iyer says was true some 30 years ago, when being vegetarian meant not eating beef or pork. Today, it is harder for me to eat in Indian restaurants here in the U.S. and restaurants in India, without fail they all add onion and garlic in everything -- I can stand a little garlic flavor, but hate onion. On the contrary, here in the U.S. I can precisely fine tune what exactly I want added to my sandwich or taco salad or whatever.

Cheers!

p.s. A comment on topic, I understand the desire to give advice to Brahmins, but these being purely secular advice, why only to Brahmins, let everyone work hard, be ready to relocate, and grab opportunities.

Let us all live well and prosper, B and NB.
 
OP
OP
Nacchinarkiniyan

Nacchinarkiniyan

Well-known member
Dear Sri Nachinarkiniyan,Greetings. I agree with you that success essentially requires enterprise and hardwork. There is no substitute for hardwork and there is no short cut for success.But I fail to understand the objective and purpose of this wake up call to Brahmins in particular. There are successful people and failures in every caste, community and people group.Besides hardwork and enterprise there are so many factors influencing success. Moreover the word success has come to have a relative connotation. What is success to one is not success to another. One common pursuit among Tamil Brahmins is to land in a good job in America and earn in American dollars, to become an American citizen and settle in America. They would even break traditions towards realizing this objective, aim and ambition in life. Many brahmin guys have married American women to become citizens of USA. Some have married women from other communities and religion to realize their dreams. For the Brahmin youth of today, the purpose in life is not to live as Brahmins should and would. In fact they care two hoots about their Brahmin roots and identity. Hardly anyone bothers about conducting Brahmopadesam to their kids. Even if they do, the kids hardly perform sandhyavandhan. In such scenario, I wonder how your clarion call would be responded !!! Almost every brahmin youngster who has landed in a job in America, has compromised with brahmin customs, practices and values, has thrown into the wind all these. They want to walk american, talk american etc etc. Most brahmins who have landed in america have turned non-vegetarians for at least 2 reasons : Vegetarian food is difficult to get and costly; Non-vegetarian food is cheaper, easily available and they like the taste. They hardly know 1 word in sanskrit let alone atleast 1 sloka.There are many more things I can add to the list. I wonder if the Brahmin community would ever exist in a few decades from now.Please ponder over this and provide me your feedback.Regards,Iyer

I do understand your point of view. To that I can add how the Brahmin community views parents who do not have their children in U.S as failures.

But this does not apply to the entire community. It definitely does not apply to my target audience.

The vast majority of the Tamil Brahmins will continue to be in India.

But tarring all the people who have migrated to the U.S and other places with the same brush is wrong.

The Veda Sabhas of Shringeri Math is the brainchild of a scientist who works in the U.S. He is a pucca Brahmin well versed in the Vedas. A Vedic scholar. He has spent millions (crores) to promote Vedas and honor Vedic pundits. There are many like him in U.S. Let us not be judgmental.

There are good Tamil Brahmins in U.S who are maintaining our culture and tradition. There are also Tamil Brahmins in India who have given up their culture and tradition.

Not many Tamil Brahmins in India know Sanskrit. We do have a problem teaching them Slokas. I was shocked to see many people reciting Vedas from Tamil books in the local Veda classes. Most of our Sasthirigals carry a Tamil Version of Taitriya Mantra Kosa.
 
OP
OP
Nacchinarkiniyan

Nacchinarkiniyan

Well-known member
Dear Shri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji,

Other communities had no fallback options, unlike brahmins who always have / had the option to go for vedic studies, offer homams / rituals to others and earn some money that way. Brahmins were never in the same category as those who had to do odd jobs to accumulate money to start a petty business.

Anyways, sir, am sorry to have made my posts on this page. Some points you made in your post were untrue, so when it was pointed out, thot it better to give an other perspective on this page itself. Thanks.

H.H I have given my interpretations of history and you have given yours. What is the truth? It is relative. Let us leave it at that.

I do not know whether you have studied in a village school. I have. We had boys and girls from all communities. The Nadar community students always talked about their shops. Provision shops. They were not very much interested in studies. They had always their shops. Those who did not own one got employment in them. Then there were the Pillais and Thevars who were into farming. They were all land owning or land tilling people. Their interest was on that and not on studies. The Brahmins were interested in studies because they had no other option.

There were three Purohits or Vadhyars in the village. They had a tough time making both ends meet. None of them wanted their children to become Purohits because it leads to lifelong poverty. The only boy who went to the Veda patashala was one of the poorest families. They were staying in a small house owned by my family free. Since the boy had no inclination for studies we got him admitted to a Veda Patashala. Later he became a Vadhyar. He migrated to Chennai later as he had no income in the village.

The vast majority of the Brahmins in our village were poor. The only ones who were better off were the families with children working in cities and of course rich land lords. The surprising thing is that our village also had a couple of the richest people in th entire district. So the purohits never had enough clientale.

Recently when I visited my village I was told that there were no qualified purohits in the village. We had to get one from a nearby town.

BTW my village is part of a small city.

Things have changed, but not much.
 

rishikesan

New member
Dear Mr. Iyer,
Whatever you have written cannot be disputed. these are the facts, occuring day in & day out. All Brahmins know this. The situation in U.S is similar in all respects all over the country. You would find that all the youngsters who have already settled after their studies, after securing jobs, after getting married sail in the same boat. I mean --the cycle is :- Invite parents before marriage, just to entertain them (sydney Land/ L.A. towers/ Beaches Et). Then after marriage to attend to Deliveries & take care of Peran/ Pethi .
Meanwhile buy Million $ houses with 4//5& live luxurious life. Once in a way--Visit a temple with the visitors & go back to work & enjoy 2 day week-ends in whatever way desired. When the wealth is earned in a matter of 4 to 5 years, why should any of our Sons or daughters think of performing Poonal ? But still for thesake of insistance by Pattis/ Thathas it s performed .Do U mean to say the children, born in U.S ,talking the American accent would ever understand the Sanskrit words / Shlokas, let alone repeating them ?
Not performing Sandhya is the order of the day . Can any one of you confirm that in India how many Brahmins perform Sandhya ? Negligible. Be satisfied that we do perform Pithru karyam somewhere out of fear , not to cause Pavam to their own kids.
The environment in U.S is not at all enthusiastic to tempt to do any such acts. These persons try to make- up as & when visiting India try to make a tour of Temples/ places of interest, because their colleagues Indians have done it. It is the easy money at the wrong age is the culprit for all these lapses Elder Tamil Brahmins living in India , while their Kids live in U.S. have no say or control. It is also impossible They are happy to talk in praise of their Sons/ Daughters as they have bought Flats & even Cars at their disposal, with a driver(which is used for some months & not beyond) because, not accustomed for such way of life in their entire life & why to indulge at the age beyond 70 ?

All can add to my write-up.,if there are untruths?

A.SSrinvasan (rishikesan)
 

Govinda

New member
When the wealth is earned in a matter of 4 to 5 years, why should any of our Sons or daughters think of performing Poonal ? But still for thesake of insistance by Pattis/ Thathas it s performed

This is completely wrong, there is more awareness now. The people in US have more comforts, better climate and are more disciplined (in time/work attitudes) , hence taking up more religious activities/karma is replenishing for them. Whoever willing to perform those, must be doing it on their own, though there may be few exceptions. America was not like the 70's, when people came here ate eggs/meat and married american women. Indian societies and many temples are well established and people regularly participate in such activities enthusiastically. Kids are taught sanskrit and tamil separately parallel to the curriculam there.

Do U mean to say the children, born in U.S ,talking the American accent would ever understand the Sanskrit words / Shlokas, let alone repeating them ?

As the original topic suggests, every human irrespective of any varna or religion or region, should be able to see a brighter side (assuming the monetary side) as the society is made of now and made to believe. Everyone learns better by experience.

You would be surprised to see even westerners learning and writing books on our philosophies. Lot of them adorning our traditions and some even thronging to our ashrams/temples, like those twice-born B/TB hindus. They like to see the other side of reality like the Bs in India want to pursue the economic side of reality. The richer older parents may have been the parents of the latter category or they were the same category who doomed all newer brahmin progeny into the ignorance of our scriptures. Now they can't blame their kids.

In the same lines, you cannot also deny the fact of reverse migration, that those who haven't even heard of sanskrit have taken up and learnt. Our ancestors of 1840's spoke English fluently and together with Asiatic Society translated all the sanskrit texts to english: [so does persian,arabic were translated] The Asiatic Society - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Govinda

New member
1. They were the Architects of Hinduism and Orthodoxy... but again they were the ones who left the Temples and go to higher education, against their own teachings!.

TN was not like other states, the Reddy's (kshatriyas of Decccan/chAlukyas) dominated the TN society/varnas. The other varnas of TN dravidians were mostly immigrants like the naidus/nairs/nadars were all the north-east indians [ mongolodis/nishadas] migrated over time, absorbed into hindhu varnas. [Read wiki] Reddys were considered higher than Brahmins. the temple maryadha, trusteeship, authority were with those reddys/kannaku-pillais, then handed over mudaliars, slowly slipped into the hands of nadars/nadans. That might be one of the reasons, the Bs would have preferred moving out. Ofcourse, there are few who were involved in the freedom hence stayed with offices. Plus, the society demanded a complete western/science based system, that we get employed so.

Coming to Orthodoxy, it is not for superiority, but for adherence to shAstras and subservience to the Lord. Noone worked under Brahmins , in case of palli/pariyars were under the rulership of Nairs or British-Army, even reported to sudras, who made them toil for pennies. They must have been the dalits who converted to christians. The superiority of caste were more predominant among NBs in TN. Brahmins wouldn't have had any say. Also, the lower castes publicy slit open the buffaloes on the streets and practiced butchery, leather related work which were obviously frowned upon and hence denied entry to temples. Landlords/Trustees might have had the complete control adn Reddy's were vegetarians and even others would have remained pure on temple occasions except those dalits. Now, the meat-eating is followed by most NBs, but may be procured from outside, they might have been considered pure to enter the temples, in which dalits cannot be exceptions.

The very basic tenet or principle of vedas is to practise non-violence, as the Lord is immanent in all creation and all beings have right to live. As He is the superself of us, our self is the body for Him. Our self should serve the highest Self, like our body serve us (our self). If this is the basic understanding , one serving one's body - yielding to wild senses to body's pleasure - meat eating (violence), odour foods, seeing sexy movies, hearing crap/gossips/vulgarity, talking non-sense, is against the understanding one's Self. One should treat the body as a temple that hosts the auspicious deity. Brahmins or any one should not abuse or deprive anyone of their basic right of living [due to the inherent nature of Self/soul], but cannot practise or welcome the 'body conscious attitude' of others, which make them more vulnerable to such attitudes [deha atma brahmam].

So, temple entry may have been prohibited for those who lack the understanding of servitude of higher self. But, when politics was involved by the owners, not all that who entered temple can guarante that self-realization, it was just a place of part-time trip or place of service like hotel and a palce of confessions, where all offences can be writtenoff by the hundi offerings. Overtime, the self-realization became body-realization to money-realization.

As we have seen many experiences and able to support our dharma ourselves, Brahmins need to go back to their original nature of self-realization, gradually restricting all other external/sensory activities and focus on learning the vedantic commentaries and develop a sense of devotion to such knowledge. Overtime, we might see a welcoming society who follow the trend and involve the next generations in the vedic studies and practices. Self is the individuality of everyone, so irrespective of any caste/creed, everyone should work towards developing their attitudes and qualities beyond the control of mind and senses and we help everyone in such realization.

2. They were the first to co-operate with the British to rule the British Raj. 3. They positioned themselves well to reap all the rewards from the Britishers...

Read this Indian Rebellion of 1857 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The kings like Jahnsi RAni and others joined the Upper castes/Brahmins in the British Army and fought the British. Without the support and spirit/courage of those Bengal Brahmins and others, We wouldn't have thought of a great freedom revolution. This made the British realize the potential of the Upper castes. So, the Queen withdrew East India company and included Upper castes in the govt. development. This was used as a chance by the Uppercastes to plan for various departments, include more indians, gather support, and finally grabbed the politics and took control with wide spread agitaition, and made them Quit India by boycotting their products, after establishing offices to procure/manage our needs. So, Upper Castes worked and planned well periodically to quit them, else India would have been/gulped by the British. You are simply one-side brainer.

As all funcitons of the society was based on offices, as more people participated in the freedom struggle, people also slowly lost their interest in the spiritual affairs and took up western/science education/jobs. This has nothing to do with Brahmins/UCs oppressing anyone else.

4. In spite of Dravidian Movement, Tamil Brahmins who make up just about 8-10% of the entire TN population, they control and dominate nearly 30% of the Private Economy..

We don't question the Reservation policy still going on for 50 years. These days, We have more NB s/w engineers in US than Bs using the private sector also, We have no problem with any of these. All can work, learn and experience better life. We are growing together.

Beyond all,
the Vedic Dharma and its values were more strictly practised by the other 2 middle varnas, who supported both the Brahmins (their temples/practices) and the worker class. So, even recently, in the example of Nadans (who were lower caste before) were not allowed to donate to temples by the Reddy's, worked hard and became upper class kshatriya, became the trustees and wanted to the support the temples and found it more privileged. So, spirituality (Bhakti) was more important for NBs than Brahmins. In that sense, we should work together in adhering to the best spiritual values and evolve better and support Hindu Values.
 
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happyhindu

Well-known member
H.H I have given my interpretations of history and you have given yours. What is the truth? It is relative. Let us leave it at that.
Agreed sir. Just that when i give "my" interpretations, i use the words "imo" or "i feel". I try to take care that i do not state "my" interpretations as facts.

Also, if i were to give "my" interpretations, then i must "like" or favor one part of history. I must be biased in such case. If that be so, then i would have supported the claims of yayati links of some 'rulers', would never have pointed out vishwamitra's sons as svapakas (after all he is considered the progenitor of practically all of the andhras)...and so on. I may not succeed always, but i do make an attempt to avoid favoring what i like to see.

Very truly put, truth is relative.

I do not know whether you have studied in a village school. I have. We had boys and girls from all communities. The Nadar community students always talked about their shops. Provision shops. They were not very much interested in studies. They had always their shops. Those who did not own one got employment in them. Then there were the Pillais and Thevars who were into farming. They were all land owning or land tilling people. Their interest was on that and not on studies. The Brahmins were interested in studies because they had no other option.
The nadars in my class were interested in studies because they had no other option. These were children who saw no future in the potti kedais (petty provision shops) their fathers had. Their income (of shop-owners) never went more than Rs.5000 per month; and there were always many mouths to feed with a single income. Ofcourse not everyone had the money to start such petty shops. The ones who work as sales assistants in such shops do not make more than Rs.3000 to this day. The only difference is that they feel they have some mariyadai (respect) left since they do not work as household maid servents.

There were three Purohits or Vadhyars in the village. They had a tough time making both ends meet. None of them wanted their children to become Purohits because it leads to lifelong poverty. The only boy who went to the Veda patashala was one of the poorest families. They were staying in a small house owned by my family free. Since the boy had no inclination for studies we got him admitted to a Veda Patashala. Later he became a Vadhyar. He migrated to Chennai later as he had no income in the village.
Which wud mean, after migrating to chennai, the vadhyar cud make a better life for himself (??).

I have not heard of employment options in villages unless its very close to an industrial town /city. In a typical village, to make a life, one has to be willing to work long hours for small income as a farmer.

Rich landlords in any village were only a miniscule proportion of the population [must add this for some other readers -- rich landlords, being miniscule, do not represent all of the OBC-listed classes; the vast majority of whom lacked education or means of income apart from working as farmers, having petty businesses, working as sales assistants in petty shops and such like).

Regards.
 
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happyhindu

Well-known member
I hope Yamaka and Nachi sir do not mind my questions to Govinda. An other option is to move these posts to an other thread (by requesting praveen to do so).

Govinda,

I have asked you some straight questions. Please do not take offence...thanks.

TN was not like other states, the Reddy's (kshatriyas of Decccan/chAlukyas) dominated the TN society/varnas. The other varnas of TN dravidians were mostly immigrants like the naidus/nairs/nadars were all the north-east indians [ mongolodis/nishadas] migrated over time, absorbed into hindhu varnas. [Read wiki] Reddys were considered higher than Brahmins. the temple maryadha, trusteeship, authority were with those reddys/kannaku-pillais, then handed over mudaliars, slowly slipped into the hands of nadars/nadans. That might be one of the reasons, the Bs would have preferred moving out. Ofcourse, there are few who were involved in the freedom hence stayed with offices. Plus, the society demanded a complete western/science based system, that we get employed so.
Please define what is a "Reddy" caste please? How are present-day Reddys chalukyas and kshatriyas? What is your basis of claiming naidus/nairs/nadars are mongolodis/nishadas from north-east india? In which places Reddys were considered higher than Brahmins (?) and when did such a time exist?

Coming to Orthodoxy, it is not for superiority, but for adherence to shAstras and subservience to the Lord.
The Smrithis clearly demarcate the brahmin as the highest class. By upholding smrithis, the orthodoxy is upholding superiority.

Noone worked under Brahmins , in case of palli/pariyars were under the rulership of Nairs or British-Army, even reported to sudras, who made them toil for pennies.
In the tamil districts Pallis were slaves to brahmins in the colonial period.

They must have been the dalits who converted to christians. The superiority of caste were more predominant among NBs in TN. Brahmins wouldn't have had any say.
Caste superiority was predominant among 'Brahmins' in TN. There is no evidence to suggest that NBs asserted caste superiority in pre-colonial days.

Also, the lower castes publicy slit open the buffaloes on the streets and practiced butchery, leather related work which were obviously frowned upon and hence denied entry to temples.
Wrong. Those who had nothing to do with butchery were also denied entry to temples (like toddy tapers).

Landlords/Trustees might have had the complete control adn Reddy's were vegetarians and even others would have remained pure on temple occasions except those dalits.
Landlords had control over temples and temple lands only in andhra because the system differed there, not in the tamil speaking districts. Reddys are not vegetarian. Only some sections are vegetarian in some places (such a mix is a common scenario found with other NBs as well).

Now, the meat-eating is followed by most NBs, but may be procured from outside, they might have been considered pure to enter the temples, in which dalits cannot be exceptions.

The very basic tenet or principle of vedas is to practise non-violence, as the Lord is immanent in all creation and all beings have right to live. As He is the superself of us, our self is the body for Him. Our self should serve the highest Self, like our body serve us (our self).
Vedas have animal sacrifice and consumption of meat.

If this is the basic understanding , one serving one's body - yielding to wild senses to body's pleasure - meat eating (violence), odour foods, seeing sexy movies, hearing crap/gossips/vulgarity, talking non-sense, is against the understanding one's Self. One should treat the body as a temple that hosts the auspicious deity. Brahmins or any one should not abuse or deprive anyone of their basic right of living [due to the inherent nature of Self/soul], but cannot practise or welcome the 'body conscious attitude' of others, which make them more vulnerable to such attitudes [deha atma brahmam].

So, temple entry was prohibited for those who lack the understanding of servitude of higher self.
Proof please?

But, when politics was involved by the owners, not all that who entered temple can guarante that self-realization, it was just a place of part-time trip or place of service like hotel and a palce of confessions, where all offences can be writtenoff by the hundi offerings. Overtime, the self-realization became body-realization to money-realization.

This is the wake up call for Brahmins, to go back to their original nature of self-realization, gradually restricting all other external/sensory activities and focus on learning the vedantic commentaries and develop a sense of devotion to such knowledge. Overtime, we might see a welcoming society who follow the trend and involve the next generations in the vedic studies and practices. Self is the individuality of everyone, so irrespective of any caste/creed, everyone should work towards developing their attitudes and qualities beyond the control of mind and senses.
Nice wake up call sir. But how many followed that path in the past and how many follow that path currently?

EVR's calculation was based in regards to the percentage of population and the jobs, and just started bashing Brahmins for support of his political agenda/popularity but backed by one naive Rajaji. So, does Ambedhkar, who came up with the support and teaching of a Brahmin.
Whatever EVR was, why do you think he became so popular with the masses?

We don't question the Reservation policy still going on for 50 years. These days, We have more NB s/w engineers in US than Bs using the private sector also, We have no problem with any of these. All can work, learn and experience better life. We are growing together.

Beyond all,
the Vedic Dharma and its values were more strictly practised by the other 2 middle varnas, who supported both the Brahmins (their temples/practices) and the worker class. So, even recently, in the example of Nadans (who were lower caste before) were not allowed to donate to temples by the Reddy's, worked hard and became upper class kshatriya, became the trustees and wanted to the support the temples and found it more privileged. So, spirituality (Bhakti) was more important for NBs than Brahmins. In that sense, we should work together in adhering to the best spiritual values and evolve better and support Hindu Values.
So you are saying Nadars became kshatriyas and want to support temples in recent times? Who coronated them as kshatriyas please?
 
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Nacchinarkiniyan

Nacchinarkiniyan

Well-known member
I request Gobinda to start a new thread for discussions with Happy Hindu. I am not requesting HH because she is in the habit of derailing threads and asking the thread originator to do all the work. Same old points and same old arguments spanning years and countless threads.

The sectors which provide maximum employment are Trade and Agriculture. India is still an agricultural country. Indians have been known as some of the greatest traders. But Tamil Brahmins have always avoided trade. The Tamil Brahmins of the southern districts have been involved in Trade for centuries. They have also taken up money lending. Then from trade they went on to industries.

But the community as a whole had always looked down upon trade and agriculture. Even when a Tamil Brahmin owned lands he rarely become an agriculturist. He preferred to lease out the land to others.

There is tremendous opportunity in trade. We find shops coming up everywhere. The failure rate is also high. The Tamil Brahmins are reluctant to enter trade mainly because they do not have the support of the family and community. I have seen that the Gujaratis and Marwaris prefer business over employment. Their community supports them. In Tamil Nadu Chettiars and Nadars prefer business. Their community supports them.

Business means high risk and high returns. For a person to undertake this kind of risk, he has to have the support of the family and community.

Tamil Brahmins have always preferred employment. Earlier it was government job. raja udyogam.

This has to change. Tamil Brahmins have to take to trade in larger numbers. There is much more money to be made than in employment. The community has to realize this and change its attitude.

I will post about certain peculiar attitudes of Indian communities in my next post.
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
I request Gobinda to start a new thread for discussions with Happy Hindu. I am not requesting HH because she is in the habit of derailing threads and asking the thread originator to do all the work. Same old points and same old arguments spanning years and countless threads.
That's very unkind of you. But am not suprised, i should expect allegations from your end. Yamaka's, Gobinda's, Sangom's and Iyer's posts are not derailing; but mine are. I already made it clear that i cud ask praveen to move the posts to an other thread. Surely i have not asked you to do all the work.

Anyways, Govinda, if you are interested in a discussion reg your points you made, with yamaka or me, please do send me a PM. I shall make a new thread.

But N sir, i do understand your discomfort. I suppose you do not want anyone to contradict anything you say (although i wud urge interested readers to cross-check info anyone states here).

Alright.

Thanks and bye.
 

sangom

Well-known member
nacchi,

i think in addition to hard work, a 'street smart' or 'political savvy' is needed.

let me give you some examples of relatives. one passed out of kerala university, msc in physics, gold medal. took a job in aecl, trombay and worked his way up through the govt scales. had an ordinary middle class life.

another cousin, came out only in 1st class biology, but managed to borrow some money for airfare, get admitted + tuition waiver, stipend, in some 3rd grade usa university. did her phd there, and then moved to a 1st rate university for a post phd name brand degree, which boosed her candidature to cutting edge biotech usa companies. now a v.p.

another male relative, barely bassed chem engg in annamalai university. but was captain of school team, and a great p.r. person. managed to get job in ioc india, leveraged to get job in mid east. rolling in money now. btw when he was in ioc baroda, i visited him, and he pointed to a seat in the corner. reserved for the gold medallist in class, a nerd, who had absolutely no dress or social skills.

so, today we need an all round ability. most of the jobs do not not great intellect. in fact if you are brainy, it is almost a handicap, as soon you find the job boring, or get arrogant to tee off your boss.

our tambram kids should get involved in team sports like soccer, volleyball or basketball - cheap but involves the concept of goal oriented team approach, sharing and above all learning the concept that the team is always more important than the individual.

narrow book level competition to come 'first in the class' is of little use in the long term strategy for life.


also body building is a good idea. one cannot underestimate the confidence that comes out of 'six pack' and the rest of the body to go along with it. along with the same, comes the natural grooming desires, and the old oily greasy hair and timid walk, is replaced with a better hair dressing, clothes and a confident walk. one does not have to break the bank for such. a few weights, buskis and pushups will do the trick.

i think also a need to project aggressiveness is needed. all of us are born with an inborn aggressivenss, which we use as children to protect our rights and space. over the years, this gets beaten out of the system, i think, thanks to tambram's inherent timidity. the result is that the kids may be bulllied. often, i find, that a projection of strength is enough to keep bullies at bay, and also build more self confidence.

just some thoughts to add to your list..thank you

Dear Kunjuppu,

These are really invaluable suggestions for the Tabra boys. But the UPS of tabras has for a long time been academic excellence and so I would like to suggest that the main attention of the Tabra boys and girls should be in the main for the academic side, because, the NBFCs and others are fast catching up with the Tabras in academic excellence. They should also compulsorily devote their attention to participative sports which will promote team spirit in them and also care about grooming and body building. These terms in English may look forbidding to the Tabras who are financially not well-off but in actual fact these may not involve any huge expenses or outlay, imo, from what I have seen my sons do.

I would now request you to give your suggestions for theTabra girls too. I believe today the girls have an edge over the Tabra boys but as the boys become more and more streetsavvy and get better groomed, they may be whisked away increasingly by girls from non-tabra groups and our tabra girls in the lower echelons, who generally have parents with highly conservative outlook, will get marginalized in the job field as also in the marriage market. That's why this request.
 

sangom

Well-known member
But the community as a whole had always looked down upon trade and agriculture. Even when a Tamil Brahmin owned lands he rarely become an agriculturist. He preferred to lease out the land to others.

There is tremendous opportunity in trade. We find shops coming up everywhere. The failure rate is also high. The Tamil Brahmins are reluctant to enter trade mainly because they do not have the support of the family and community. I have seen that the Gujaratis and Marwaris prefer business over employment. Their community supports them. In Tamil Nadu Chettiars and Nadars prefer business. Their community supports them.

Business means high risk and high returns. For a person to undertake this kind of risk, he has to have the support of the family and community.

I agree. But when we talk of support from/of the family, it is not only a "No Objection Certificate" from the wife and children, but also the mindset to face the ups and downs of a business person's (trader's) misfortunes. The typical tabra housewife even a few generations ago, preferred a life of steady income to a fluctuating one. As one very old Marwari businessman once told me (he was riding the crest of fortunes when he said this, living in a posh flat of some 3000 sq.ft. in Malabar Hill, owning two or three cars, etc.), "you Madrasis will not like even one idli less for your breakfast tomorrow and then will start cribbing, whereas my wife will readily pack up whatever belongings we will be left with and travel by third class train unreserved, and start our village life with near-zero income and start once again.", he said and I feel it is correct. For Tabras to take up trade or business or industry (even a micro unit) the support, co-operation and willingness to weather the bad days stoically, must be there. I don't know if today's tabra girls/yesterday's tabra women (who are the middle-aged housewifes of today, will be willing for this sort of life.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
nacchi,

i cannot but emphasize the importance of running your own show. ofcourse there is an element of risk, but careful planning up front, delivering what you promised, and above all keeping your customers delighted. these are sure formulas for success in business.

we should be short termed into making a profit immediately. a business needs time, effort and above all consistent customer service, to develop a relationship. when this is done, one will find, that loyalty rules over price sensitivity.

my dad was a small businessman, and from the day he started, to the day the business was sold due to health reasons, he had a bunch of customers, whom he serviced to the utomost satisfaction. over the years competitors came and tried to draw his customers away, but none of them, would exchanged their 'iyer' for any new charlatan offering cheaper price. :)

here is a more recent story. about 10 years ago or less, i think, when velacheri was being inundated by i.t. parks, one of my hitherto good for nothing nephew, got the idea of feeding the office workers. so by hook and crook, he managed to get the cafetaria contract for one 24x7 building. the bulk of his sales is coffee, chocolates/knick knacks. he serves hot food, thrice a day, in limited quantities, limited menu. between him and his wife, not only do they have a comfortable life, but they have the satisfaction of giving livelihood to about 15 families. it is his boast, that his products are so tasty, that people from nearby building crossover to patronize him.

to sum up, have a business plan, go through it thoroughly. understand your business, what the customers need. people always have to eat. so there is a ready market in food business. many a retired couple start out delivering cooked meals. initially their food is tasteful, but it is only a matter of time before the quality deteriorates, the service undependable, and costs increase. i have had experience of this too, to my dismay. :(
 
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