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2G Scam

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At last the highest court of the country has given the verdict upholding the view that the law of Dharma will operate. The negative side of itis that It has made certain observation giving a clean chit to P.Chidambaram holding Raja only for the entire foul game.The real culprits like P.C and Karunanithi will escape.
sundararajan
 
Dear Sudararajan,

BIG NO !!!. Dharma has long left this country !!.

Anti corruption is only for south indians - Shashi Tharoor, Kalmadi (Kannadiga), Yeddyurappa, Raja, Kanimozhi, Maran, Chidambaram, Gali/Reddy Brothers, Jagan Reddy, Naidu, SM Krishna, Kumaraswamy etc..

Everyone knows the entire country is corrupt. so why there is NOT a single north politician in this list ? come on - Lalu, maya, rabri, shabri, mulayam, amar singh, salman kursheed, Shiela dikshit etc... are bigger crooks & criminals !!

How come Raja, Kanimozhi, Maran, Chidambaram are responsible but not great saint MMS ??. In any company, institution, country, the first to go is the head, CEO, PM, President !!!!

Sheila Dikshit has been indicted by 3 independant commission for 69000 Crores & there is NO investigation on her, not even a whisper in the media ? but Kalmadi is a big scamster for the 1500 Crores spent through CWG office!! & 24x7 negative coverage against all these people.

Clearly this is a North vendetta (Congress/BJP/Media) against south indians.

Kanimozhi was denied bail for 6 months, 5 appeals to the courts & inumerable petitions to CBI ?. why ? Because the courts/judges operate under Congress control, & they wanted to teach DMK/Karunanidhi a lesson. Kani bail denial is a human right violation, what happened to "Innocent till proven guilty". Now they are targetting Jagan Reddy becos he spoke against the Congress High Command.

Under Maran/A Raja, there was a telcom revolution, we have over 400+ million people with cell phones. This foolish court has set the ball back by cancelling the licenses & cell phone chargers will sky rocket. with this, the telcom sector will collapse !. why should the telcom companies & consumers suffer for this ?

so much for Dharma !!

Cheers,
JK
 
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Very good exposition. This is "India" that is, Bharat. Sometimes, one would tend to think that CNA was right in the beginning. I wonder how many would agree on this.
 
Praful Patel (Marati) has been implicated by a canadian newspaper for 100+ mil $ deal. can the media dare to run a 24x7 campaign against him like Kalmadi !!!

why is the BJP not asking for Praful patel to resign ??. they are all over the news when it comes to Chidambaram, Raja, Kalmadi, Shashi Tharoor /south indians !

u know what happened in the Pawar Slapgate, all the north indians went bersek to support him.

Clearly this is a North Vendetta against South Indians !
 
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...., we have over 400+ million people with cell phones. This foolish court has set the ball back by cancelling the licenses & cell phone chargers will sky rocket. with this, the telcom sector will collapse !
JK, what is the evidence based on which you make such a broad assertion? If the telecom rates are low that cannot be because the Government gave away a national resource for pittance because these recipients turned around and sold them at market value. So, the subscribers are paying rates based on the market value of the 2G spectrum, not at the rates the government sold the spectrum. The companies with ties to powerful people that got the initial allotments made it like bandits at the expense of the government treasury and the common folks.

Even otherwise, what about the 600+ million Indians who are without cell phones, what do they get out of it? Besides, corruption of this order of magnitude must not be just swept under the rug. The SC has a solemn obligation to get to the bottom of it.

Cheers!

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx
 
Dear Sudararajan,

BIG NO !!!. Dharma has long left this country !!.


Everyone knows the entire country is corrupt. so why there is NOT a single north politician in this list ? come on - Lalu, maya, rabri, shabri, mulayam, amar singh, salman kursheed, Shiela dikshit etc... are bigger crooks & criminals !!

This north/south divide you are indicating is erroneous. Sure there are many north Indian corrupts out there... but for some bad times have caught up with also.

For eg. Sukh Ram, Ashok Chavan, LN Mishra, Koda etc.
 
JK, what is the evidence based on which you make such a broad assertion? If the telecom rates are low that cannot be because the Government gave away a national resource for pittance because these recipients turned around and sold them at market value. So, the subscribers are paying rates based on the market value of the 2G spectrum, not at the rates the government sold the spectrum. The companies with ties to powerful people that got the initial allotments made it like bandits at the expense of the government treasury and the common folks.

Even otherwise, what about the 600+ million Indians who are without cell phones, what do they get out of it? Besides, corruption of this order of magnitude must not be just swept under the rug. The SC has a solemn obligation to get to the bottom of it.

Cheers!

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx


Hi Nara,

Telenor has just announced that they are quitting India. and you will shortly see the reactions from others. if spectrum is auctioned, the prices will skyrocket, so no telcom company can buy it & operate at the current price levels. The cell phone charges will skyrocket & finally killing the market.

Agreed, that this is a big corruption issue, but the policy to give spectrum at a low price is NOT the issue. The issue was kick backs. The fact that some sold them at a higher price is NOT an issue, it happens all over the place. you must have heard of many historical artifacts sold in auction at a x price & privately sold at more than 3x or 4x prices.

what this court should have done is to recover the kick backs & got the corrupt punished. Instead it punished the consumers & has pushed the cell charges beyond the poor !!

Hence this foolish court has effectively destroyed the telcom sector !!.

Cheers,
JK
 
This north/south divide you are indicating is erroneous. Sure there are many north Indian corrupts out there... but for some bad times have caught up with also.

For eg. Sukh Ram, Ashok Chavan, LN Mishra, Koda etc.

Sorry thats not true ! Sukh Ram, LN M, Koda are inconsequential politicians !!

There is a big north/south divide from a long time & it has now grown very big with this Vendetta politics.

why would you run a 24x7 campaign against Kalmadi & not against Sheila Dikshit. The commission that indicted kalmadi has also indicted Shiela Dikshit but for a much bigger scam - 69K Crores ???

why is the media not all over the story on Praful Patel ?

why is the media not all over maya for her corrupt govt ?

why is the media not all over Lalu, Mulayam, Sharad Paward etc.. ?

Kani bail denial is a deliberate vendetta !, it is a clear case of human rights violation
 
.... if spectrum is auctioned, the prices will skyrocket, .... The cell phone charges will skyrocket & finally killing the market.

Agreed, that this is a big corruption issue, but the policy to give spectrum at a low price is NOT the issue. The issue was kick backs.
JK, agreed, kickback is the issue. But this kickback has contaminated the entire process and SC is having to do the cleanup.

People buying spectrum do so not to just hold on to it as sign of prestige or to enjoy its beauty in private, which is what buyers of art or historical artifacts may do. Those who buy spectrum do so to use it to sell a product and make money. So, the auction process will hike the prices only to the extent these companies can make a profit using it, i.e. whatever the market can bear. This is Microeconomics 101. So, your comment that auctioning spectrum will result in skyrocketing prices which will ultimately kill the industry, is far fetched.

Further, by giving the spectrum away for next to nothing to companies with connection in high places is corruption by its very nature. Such corruption must not be allowed just because it results in lower cell phone prices. Lower cell phone prices benefits only those who use cell phones, by your count it is 400+ million. That leaves out 600+ million nonusers. Why should they subsidize the cell phone users? With auction system government would receive fair market value for the public resource that belongs to all Indians and the receipt can be used for the welfare of all Indians.

When it comes to commercial transactions like this, only a transparent, open, competitive process will benefit everyone fairly.

Cheers!

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx
 
JK, agreed, kickback is the issue. But this kickback has contaminated the entire process and SC is having to do the cleanup.

People buying spectrum do so not to just hold on to it as sign of prestige or to enjoy its beauty in private, which is what buyers of art or historical artifacts may do. Those who buy spectrum do so to use it to sell a product and make money. So, the auction process will hike the prices only to the extent these companies can make a profit using it, i.e. whatever the market can bear. This is Microeconomics 101. So, your comment that auctioning spectrum will result in skyrocketing prices which will ultimately kill the industry, is far fetched.

Further, by giving the spectrum away for next to nothing to companies with connection in high places is corruption by its very nature. Such corruption must not be allowed just because it results in lower cell phone prices. Lower cell phone prices benefits only those who use cell phones, by your count it is 400+ million. That leaves out 600+ million nonusers. Why should they subsidize the cell phone users? With auction system government would receive fair market value for the public resource that belongs to all Indians and the receipt can be used for the welfare of all Indians.

When it comes to commercial transactions like this, only a transparent, open, competitive process will benefit everyone fairly.

Cheers!

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx


Hi Nara,

How is the other 600+ Mil involved in this ?. How are they subsidising this ?. if you are saying higher revenues from Spectrum will go to them, pl unstd corruption is so deep rooted nothing will go to them.

Okay - Lets get to some basic economics 101 - if you auction spectrum, the Big players like Bharati, Vodafone will buy out the spectrum at a very
high prices. all the smaller players will lose out, becos they cannot compete. if i am in Vodafone, i will simply outprice my competitors & buyout all of them. I will then price my charges much higher becos I need to make a profit. Beocs there are no other players, everyone has to go to the BIG players at exhorbitant prices. Most people who cannot afford will move out effectively killing the market.

Cheers,
JK
 
Folks,

A simple clarifying question.

Is there 3G in operation in India? How was that licensing process handled?

If it exists, then what is the price differential for the consumer between 2G and 3G?

Regards,
KRS
 
.... if you are saying higher revenues from Spectrum will go to them, pl unstd corruption is so deep rooted nothing will go to them.
JK, no more than the corruption that has occurred with the policy favoring select few companies with right connections. This corruption has come to pass, the corruption you are talking about is speculative.

... if i am in Vodafone, i will simply outprice my competitors & buyout all of them. I will then price my charges much higher becos I need to make a profit.
What you are suggesting is illegal. India has Monopolies and Restrictive Trade Practices Commission (MRTPC) under the Ministry of Corporate Affairs to prevent such cases.

Cheers!

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx
 
Further, by giving the spectrum away for next to nothing to companies with connection in high places is corruption by its very nature. Such corruption must not be allowed just because it results in lower cell phone prices.

When it comes to commercial transactions like this, only a transparent, open, competitive process will benefit everyone fairly.

Hi Nara,

Giving spectrum at throw away prices to all is NOT corruption. This created a unprecedented revolution in the telcom sector. The issue is only the kick backs.

How do you think the auto drivers, vegetable, fruit vendors, farmers, etc.. have cell phone & pay next to nothing for the usage ? This happened after Raja distributed spectrum at throw away prices to all the small vendors. !!

if you auction, do u think these people will continue to have cell phones. ??

This will impact the larger economy becos communcation is the backbone.

Pl get real, it is not me, many many experts have said this will kill the telcom sector !!!!!

Cheers,
JK
 
JK, no more than the corruption that has occurred with the policy favoring select few companies with right connections. This corruption has come to pass, the corruption you are talking about is speculative.

What you are suggesting is illegal. India has Monopolies and Restrictive Trade Practices Commission (MRTPC) under the Ministry of Corporate Affairs to prevent such cases.

Cheers!

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx

Oh, yeah, okay, okay, everyone knows :)- there is the monopolies and restrictive trade practices - LOL !!!
 
JK, no more than the corruption that has occurred with the policy favoring select few companies with right connections. This corruption has come to pass, the corruption you are talking about is speculative.

What you are suggesting is illegal. India has Monopolies and Restrictive Trade Practices Commission (MRTPC) under the Ministry of Corporate Affairs to prevent such cases.

Cheers!

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx

First the policy to distribute spectrum at throw away prices is NOT corruption. if a few were favoured, & kick backs received then it is obviously corruption - no rocket science.

where am i saying that corruption is okay ???. where is the dispute here.

the issue is that a foolish judge decided to reverse/cancel the licenses !!!!
 
what you are suggesting is illegal. India has monopolies and restrictive trade practices commission (mrtpc) under the ministry of corporate affairs to prevent such cases.

pl do not misquote me. I said this is what will happen if you auction. I am not saying this is what people should do.
 
Folks,

A simple clarifying question.

Is there 3G in operation in India? How was that licensing process handled?

If it exists, then what is the price differential for the consumer between 2G and 3G?

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS,

Absolutely the right question. yes 3G is in India, it was auctioned & the Govt collected a lot of money - great show !!. But 3G is dead, non fucntional in India becos it is extremely expensive. Nobody uses it. The world has moved on to 4G & beyond !!

Hello Nara - More proof on what will happen if you auction these licenses !!

Cheers,
JK
 
pl do not misquote me. I said this is what will happen if you auction. I am not saying this is what people should do.
Slow down JK, I did not misquote you, in fact the quotation was straight out of your post. My comment was only that what you were saying, if it happens, would be illegal.

The rest, I leave it to the consideration of the other members.

Thanks ....

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx
 
Slow down JK, I did not misquote you, in fact the quotation was straight out of your post. My comment was only that what you were saying, if it happens, would be illegal.

The rest, I leave it to the consideration of the other members.

Thanks ....


Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx

Sorry, you cannot continue to misquote me if you misunderstood my words & specifically when I have already clarified what I meant. "I said this is what will happen if you auction. I am not saying this is what people should do."

I dont want to get into a argument on the english interpretation. when I said, "if i were to be there...", it was more an illustration ON WHAT WILL HAPPEN NOT WHAT SOMEONE SHOULD DO.

I am sure those who have an excellent command on english will NOT misunderstand my words.!!!
 
Hi Nara,

Giving spectrum at throw away prices to all is NOT corruption. This created a unprecedented revolution in the telcom sector. The issue is only the kick backs.

How do you think the auto drivers, vegetable, fruit vendors, farmers, etc.. have cell phone & pay next to nothing for the usage ? This happened after Raja distributed spectrum at throw away prices to all the small vendors. !!

if you auction, do u think these people will continue to have cell phones. ??

This will impact the larger economy becos communcation is the backbone.

Pl get real, it is not me, many many experts have said this will kill the telcom sector !!!!!

Cheers,
JK

Jk your point is well taken, that by artificially lowering the spectrum price, it was like subsidizing to lower the end-price.
The problem is it was done in an underhand manner and to the benefit of few, and huge kickback. This became a corruption because of lack of transparency.

Instead they should have auctioned the spectrum and could have given subsidy to lower the market price. This kind of subsidy is given in USA to power company all the time.
 
Hello JK:

Nice meeting you here.

I am with you on this issue.

As I opined in the other Thread in Community and Politics: 2G issues...., this SC verdict is a watershed moment in India's Business World, where politics, media, judiciary coalesce to thrive.

Corruption is endemic in India, as you mentioned before. In all we have low Integrity and Professionalism among people of all sorts in India: I have listened to people who have argued "What's wrong with giving and taking bribe, anyway? That's just cost of doing business in India!" etc. We have a deep rooted cultural problem, I dare say.

Dear N and myself (we both belong to birds of same flock on very many social, religious issues) don't agree on the 2G scandal and this verdict!! Lol :)

Here are my core observations on this SC verdict -

1. Unfortunately, this case was adjudicated by a 2-person Bench. This is such a very important case this deserves a Full Bench of 9-11 Justices.

Is there an Appeal Process here to address the grievances of the injured? Probably, not.

2. Can the Apex Court interfere in the Policy Decisions of an Elected Govt (be it NDA or UPA Govt)? Is this not a Hyper Activism of the Judiciary (to borrow the phrase of Robert Borg in the US)?

3. Which method is useful to the Society: FCFS allocation of the 2G Vs Allocation to the Highest bidder? If the supply side cost for the mobile service goes up materially (which I expect), will this be a concern of the Apex Court?

4. The SC invokes the "Doctrine of Equality" of the Applicants for the 2G licenses. Where is such doctrine for the Consumers?

and so on.

I am very unhappy that politics has entered into SC: they are bent upon messing up the Elected Govt.

Mrs. Sonia Gandhi and Dr. MMS did not handle this issue well from the beginning, I dare say.

More later...

Cheers.

:)
 
...Dear N and myself (we both belong to birds of same flock on very many social, religious issues) don't agree on the 2G scandal and this verdict!! Lol
Yes dear Y, we do share a lot of views, so, I am glad you are back participating actively. We also disagree on many issues, not just 2G, the U.S. politics is another issue where we just cannot agree :). The three of us form three corners of a triangle, you, me, and Shri KRS, though you two are probably closer than you think.

Cheers!

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx
 
Dear bro Nara Ji,

You said:
The three of us form three corners of a triangle, you, me, and Shri KRS, though you two are probably closer than you think.

Whoa! Next thing I know, you will be claiming that I am related to Sri Yamaka!!!! :)

What is your thesis? This should be interesting. We are all equi distance AFAIAC, two atheists and a theist, two free market believers versus (I am afraid to say it! :) LOL!

Regards,
KRS
 
....Whoa! Next thing I know, you will be claiming that I am related to Sri Yamaka!!!!
Didn't you know, I am a "communist" :)!!

Did you know Karl Marx once had to say "I am not a Marxist", so much was the distortion about what Karl Marx said during his own time.

Well, both you and Yamaka believe in what I think is total nonsense, American Exceptionalism, and things such as that. Also, I think the establishment power we see today, the oligarchy if you will, is represented by the single party system we have in the U.S.A, with two wings of course, one called Republican and the other called Democratic, that I think are represented by the two eminent personages of this forum, namely your goodself (quintessentially Indian term) and Shri Yakama :)

Cheers :) :)!!!!!!

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx
 
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