எங்கே Sri Vaishnavam

[Raghy]

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Sri Raju said few days ago :-

Dear Raghy.
//I humbly decline to enrol in a Srivaishnava course as I am not too keen to become a Srivaishnava. Presently, I am a humanist. I think, I would like to stay that way.//

”I am at a loss of words to reply. In the first place you requested for information on the source to know about Vaishnavism. Only then I gave the University's name to you.”

Sri Raju,
I have not requested for information about Vaishnavism in general. Since you said Srivaishnavam is alive and kicking, I said “I am sincerely interested to know about this Srivaishnava movement as mentioned by you”. Sir, Srivaishnavam is explained in detail in this forum. I had no reason to approach you for that. I was curious to know about your version of Srivaishnavam that you claim to be alive and kicking.
Sir, you wrote “Next time you visit Tamilnadu come to any of the vishnu temple. See for yourself the fervour and devotion of the people visiting these temples. You wont miss the message. It is clear and loud.”
Also you wrote “Moreover by learning about vaishnavism you do not become a vaishnava. It is something like saying by learning urdu you become a muslim.”
That is exactly my point, Sir. Not everyone who learns Urudu becomes muslim, not everyone learns about Srivaishnavam becomes a vaishnavite and not everyone visit Vishnu temple with fervour and devotion are Srivaishnavites.

Sri Raju said :-
“I generally do not offer advice unless asked for.”
Sir, in one instance you asked me to refer Tamil Dictionary; in the next you asked me to enrol in the university; also you directed me to read Thaithreya Upanishad. Leave alone I did not ask you for these directions, but these are not advices either.

Sri Raju said :-
“But more importantly your above paragraph has given me a rare insight into your mind.”

Sir, what rare insight you are talking about, please? You say this as if I am posing as someone in this forum while in reality I am a different person? For your kind information, I introduced myself as an atheist in this forum in my first post. Everything I write about myself, about my experiences is 100% true. Sir, I have no imagination; so, I always get by only by speaking the truth.

Sri Raju said :-

“Who said vaishnavites are not humanists (whatever you mean by that term)? Who said vaishnavism is not "humanist" in its content? Without even attempting to know about something you have already passed a judgment on that.”

Sir, by your own admittance, you did not know who a humanist was at the time you wrote this message (Sri.Nara explained who a humanist is instead of asking you take up a course in humanism). When you did not know what humanism meant, how did you say Srivaishnavam contains humanism? Let me assure you, Sri Vaishnavam does not contain Humanism. I have met Naidu Sri Vaishnava, Reddiyar Sri Vaishnava, Naicker Sri Vaishnava and adiyen Iyengar Sri Vaishnava. Humanism in Sri Vaishnavam? I have not passed any judgement on Sri Vaishnavam; I am not ignorant about Sri Vaishnavam either. I have personally seen the lack of humanism in Sri Vaishnavam.
Going back to ‘kodumin & koLLumin’. Azhwar actually said ‘Kodu and KoLLu’, but delivered that message with humility as ‘kodumin & kollumin’.
Dictionaries are written based on the way majority of the people use a particular word; never the other way around. In Tamil Nadu, castes other than Brahmins make over 80%. I mentioned about the village people’s interpretation of ‘kodukka & koLLa’. Last week I asked a doctor from Tanjore for the meaning of these words. He also interpreted those words as relationship through marriages. Since majority of Tamizh speaking persons interpret ‘kodukka & koLLa’ in relation to marriage, I can’t stress more about the validity of that meaning. Sir, You conveniently neglected that portion of my message and asked me to learn Thaithreya Upanishad. You ignored the post that asked you if you would clarify any of my doubts. But my actual message was, if I started showing the ills of that Upanishad, would you have answer for them? Thank you.

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri Raju, Greetings!

... I welcome a spirited discussion. Even a little bit of leg-pulling and banter is not out of place if only to make it interesting and I am young enough to take it in my stride.

And I am old enough to take it with a smile Good, let us go at it with this spirit.

It seems we have sort of come to an end in this topic. I have nothing against Vedas, all I say is don't constrain yourself with inerrancy and infallibility stuff, that is all.

I am addressing Brahmins because I am a TB by birth. I am singling out Sri Vaishnavas because I was one and I care about Sri Vaishnavam. If I were to believe in a personal god I would only go for a Sri Vasihnava god who is described as கல்யாண குண கண மஹார்ணவம்.

The dragon lurking is not the caste system, but it is the caste prejudice that lurks deep down in the hearts of all who consider themselves as brahmins.

I agree that not all men are created equal. Differences and discrimination have existed as long as humans have become "civilized".

Varna system, which evolved into caste system, is part of this civilizing phase which needed control of the masses. So, caste is created by men for control, it is not part of nature. The Varna system is another man-made ugly facet in the multifaceted domination of the masses.

Now, the roles of the caste system have been reversed. The ones who were on top of political power are now without it. The heat at the bottom is now unbearable. Even now, there is no recognition that this heat was endured by so many who were kept down due to caste for so long.

We now accuse everyone else for perpetuating caste system. See, these other NBs are the ones who are continuing it. The truth is, the B's want to end caste for college admissions and government jobs, but not in temples and matams. Why is this not hypocrisy? I have been asking this question and nobody has answered it directly and satisfactorily. There is lot of obfuscation.

Well, let us change, one individual at a time. Let us not give excuses. Let each of us shed caste identity from each of our hearts and lives.

Cheers!

 

[suraju06]

//I say is don't constrain yourself with inerrancy and infallibility stuff, that is all.//

Inerrancy and infallibility of Vedas have been accepted by many after careful thought and consideration and wse dont feel constrained by it.
//but it is the caste prejudice that lurks deep down in the hearts of all who consider themselves as brahmins.//

Caste prejudices exist not only in the minds of brahmins but with every one else also.Rather it is more vicious in the case of others.

//The ones who were on top of political power are now without it.//

It does not appear to be correct. They are wielders of power always. Only they are not brahmins. They had never been brahmins.

//Even now, there is no recognition that this heat was endured by so many who were kept down due to caste for so long.//

Yes I agree. Even today they are kept down by the powerful dominent castes. This is politics.

//We now accuse everyone else for perpetuating caste system. See, these other NBs are the ones who are continuing it. The truth is, the B's want to end caste for college admissions and government jobs, but not in temples and matams. Why is this not hypocrisy? I have been asking this question and nobody has answered it directly and satisfactorily. There is lot of obfuscation.//

If you mean brahmins by the word "WE"- yes it is true because that is the truth. Brahmins are the fall guys or whipping boys in the whole scheme of things. Their non-existent caste superiority was exploited to divide the society into strict castebased compartments once and the same non-existant arrogance is the ploy used to wip up passions and keep the 'untouchables' in the lowest category away from political power and advanement. The culprit was and is the economically, politically, numerically strong lump of dominant other castes. This is the reallity which has been clearly understood by the dalits and the dominant castes and this is the reason for dalit unrest and their acceptance of outside leaders to lead them.This is again politics where the rules of the game are totally different.
//Let us not give excuses. Let each of us shed caste identity from each of our hearts and lives.//
But let us also keeps our eyes and ears open to the reality as it exists. Otherwise we may be altogether eliminated. Cheers.

 

[pvraman]

Dear Shri Nara,

Greetings!

I seek some clarification Sir, because I fail to understand the following,


You Wrote..
The dragon lurking is not the caste system, but it is the caste prejudice that lurks deep down in the hearts of all who consider themselves as brahmins.

May be for some, but not for all. I have seen many Brahmin does not have anything like that. I see people have to react when (NOT ALL) some of the political vested sections targets brahmins for their agenda. Some of our sections, treated others like that decades ago, Sir, I remember from my Grand father's day where no such thing happened with the big society where I lived. My Grandfather's Body guard (once, since i think my grandfather could not afford he scrapped the job :noidea was still alive when I was 9 years old, and he normally addressed my grand father with his name and my father as "Dei (டேய், உன் பசங்க நல்லா இருக்காங்களா?.....)" . We used to buy groceries from the shop in "Melappalayam" which may be the present SC/ST society, the shop belonged to those people only. We play with the boys not only from them but others too. Never had any quarrel and fight or discrimination. In-fact in our village there were separate streets for brahmin, nadar, chettiar, kallar, never once there was a quarrel with anybody. Many of of the brahmin families were middle and lower middle income group. Very poor houses compared to other sections houses. (many of them, i mean). But by the time (in the year 1979, few of christian & muslim family started to take house in our street). During my visit to that village about 10 years back, i could not recognize, there were full of Dalit's leader Mr Krishnasamy's posters all over the street and main streets. I also heard there were lot of fights. And in the Agraharam, not many brahmin family lives, I think same with other groups also.

What you mentioned about suppressing with power, did not happen in our village with approx 400+ brahmin families, and thatswhy I fail to understand when you say we should avoid prejudice. According to me, we were very happy in those times (MY father too confirms), we used to participate all type of thiruvizas.

I really fail to understand, now there is no separate divisions as such, why the village became hell with unrest and fight. I am giving a live example of a village which i understand from 1975. My father who lived there many years before that, too feels that. My father faced this discrimination and harassment from the TN govt's job. (again not all) for the first time out of our village. i am talking about 1965s.

Varna system, which evolved into caste system, is part of this civilizing phase which needed control of the masses. So, caste is created by men for control, it is not part of nature. The Varna system is another man-made ugly facet in the multifaceted domination of the masses.

While I understand Caste system, (its need), I still fail to understand that the varna system (in those times) was created only for the Brahmans benefit. As the varna system's (atleast in Manusmiriti) requirement for a Brahmana is very tougher than any other varna. And failing which Brahmana straight away falls to other category. Sir, I request you to correct me.

Now, the roles of the caste system have been reversed. The ones who were on top of political power are now without it. The heat at the bottom is now unbearable. Even now, there is no recognition that this heat was endured by so many who were kept down due to caste for so long.

I have given my personal experience. With that context i fail to understand the above para.

We now accuse everyone else for perpetuating caste system.See, these other NBs are the ones who are continuing it. The truth is, the B's want to end caste for college admissions and government jobs, but not in temples and matams.

IMHO, its against the present day sentiments as for as I know. In 1985 itself, I never tried or cared Govt jobs as I was sure, i would not get it. My thinking and focus turned to private jobs. (None of my friends are in govt jobs but all are doing well in their respective field). As for as the temple is concerned, me too like a NB. If the income is too lucrative, it will also be snatched, if their sons and daughters are educated in schools instead of Padashalas, then the gen next will leave that job. My relative, could not complete 12th standard, tried various jobs, could not continue in any job due to the bad temperament, and now doing good, he has become a Poosari in a small temple. I don't know how he manages sanskrit mantras - must be managing with tamil mantras.

Why is this not hypocrisy? I have been asking this question and nobody has answered it directly and satisfactorily. There is lot of obfuscation.

Sir, you are suggesting to leave one's identity. I request you to let us know one example country, state, where people are all living in harmony with one identity. Its only to understand and visualize such society.

Well, let us change, one individual at a time. Let us not give excuses. Let each of us shed caste identity from each of our hearts and lives.

........
.........

Cheers![/QUOTE]

 

[Raghy]

Sri PVR,

My friend, Sri Nara will provide you with adequate answers.
I wish to address about your identity concern. I have read so many of your messages. Your identity is also Nara. Sri. Nara identifies himself as just a human being. You are exactly that. You are a human who identifies others as human being first. You will never loose this identity. It is not easy to achieve though; you have achieved it. You have elevated yourself from the clutches of casteism long back. I am bemused to see your asking about your identity! If you feel you require it, I am more than happy to explain to you in an analysis about yourself. Kindly don’t think that I am placing myself some where above you when I say I can explain. I am saying this out of admiration for you. (You are not the only one; to my pleasure, I am seeing so many members of this forum in an elevated level).

 

[pvraman]

Dear Sri Raghy,

Thanks and I have little more doubts, but I am waiting for Mr Nara's reply.

I would like to post that in Who is Brahmana? thread.

Regards

 

[suraju06]

//Dear Raghy.
//I humbly decline to enrol in a Srivaishnava course as I am not too keen to become a Srivaishnava. Presently, I am a humanist. I think, I would like to stay that way.//

I am at a loss of words to reply. In the first place you requested for information on the source to know about Vaishnavism. Only then I gave the University's name to you. I generally do not offer advice unless asked for. But more importantly your above paragraph has given me a rare insight into your mind. Who said vaishnavites are not humanists (whatever you mean by that term)? Who said vaishnavism is not "humanist" in its content? Without even attempting to know about something you have already passed a judgment on that. Moreover by learning about vaishnavism you do not become a vaishnava. It is something like saying by learning urdu you become a muslim. If you have changed your mind and has decided not to know anything about vaishnavam you need not join the classes. It is your decision and your take. All the best.//

Dear Sir, Please read the above carefully.The key is " I would like to stay that way".This is the insight i had mentioned. The mindset that 'I am a humanist now and I will not be a humanist if i become a srivaishnava'. This is the insight I got and this is the insight anyone who read your post would have got on a reasonable simple interpretation.And my answer is also precisely to this presumption. I do not understand how I have imputed all the motives you have mentioned, to your statement. Cool dear Sir, cool.
//Sir, in one instance you asked me to refer Tamil Dictionary; in the next you asked me to enrol in the university; also you directed me to read Thaithreya Upanishad. Leave alone I did not ask you for these directions, but these are not advices either.//

They were neither directions, nor advices. They were just suggestions. Who am I to direct or advise! We are free individuals.Of course if i had known you are an atheist, i would not have made even these suggestions. Unfortunately i did not dig into archives.

//Sir, by your own admittance, you did not know who a humanist was at the time you wrote this message (Sri.Nara explained who a humanist is instead of asking you take up a course in humanism). When you did not know what humanism meant, how did you say Srivaishnavam contains humanism? Let me assure you, Sri Vaishnavam does not contain Humanism. I have met Naidu Sri Vaishnava, Reddiyar Sri Vaishnava, Naicker Sri Vaishnava and adiyen Iyengar Sri Vaishnava. Humanism in Sri Vaishnavam? I have not passed any judgement on Sri Vaishnavam; I am not ignorant about Sri Vaishnavam either. I have personally seen the lack of humanism in Sri Vaishnavam.//

About the first five lines of the above passage, I have nothing to say other than that i dont wear my knowledge about various isms on my sleeve or my forehead. About the rest of the passage I have again nothing to say.

//Last week I asked a doctor from Tanjore for the meaning of these words.//
Yesterday I asked the yadava tenant of our land who had come from a small village near Tirunelveli and he said kol means take and kodu means give. My mother who lives with us is 84 and she gave the same meaning when I asked her about it.We can go on building up an argument like this. Only because you insisted on a reply from me I have given this.
//You ignored the post that asked you if you would clarify any of my doubts//

I am here for a limited purpose. I do not intend to read the enge brahmanan or some such thread which you wanted to me to read and answer your views there. I am sorry.

//I started showing the ills of that Upanishad, would you have answer for them?//
You have the full freedom to propose any thing you want. It is not for me to come and counter it and disprove it. And I dont believe i am the only one who believes in vedas and upanishads here. There are others also more learned than me who may like to answer you.
//He did not know the location of Arundhathi star. That information was known only to myself and my wife; we did not disclose that to anybody. On the next day I wrote the location of the star with a sketch of Saptha Rishi Mandalm for my vadhiyar. Few years later, I attended a marriage conducted by this same vadhiyar. He encouraged the newly weds to ask for the meanings; he did not even bother to go out to show them Arundhathi! He gave them a piece of paper and said, “Kuzhanthai, here is the location of Arundhathi. On a cloudless sky, in the evening, seek to find this star. If you can’t find it, check your eyes! I can’t find it anyway due to saleshvaram!” Actually he became a very popular vadhiyar.

Sri Raju said :-
“If I were the vadhyar there I would have told you, I can only conduct the ceremonies with the manthras. If you want to know the meanings of the manthras I have no time for that now. You pay for it later and come to me. If you insist now and here, better look for someone else. Thank you.”

Sir, in my humble opinion, you would not have made in to a popular vadhyar.
For your kind information, I introduced myself as an atheist in this forum in my first post.//

Moral of the story: All 'popular' vadhyars learn the meaning of their manthras from Atheists. All the best.Thank you.GOD BLESS YOU!

 

[happyhindu]

Shri PVR,

This is a big digression from the topic of discussion. Just cudn't help wondering abt your posts..

...

Contradiction 1:
...
Which means brahmanas can be to other varnas, and its not by birth...

Contradiction 2:

9.335. (A Sudra who is) pure, the servant of his betters, gentle in his speech, and free from pride, and alwaysseeks a refuge with Brahmanas, attains (in his next life) a higher caste.
.
10.108. Visvamitra, who well knew what is right or wrong, approached, when he was tormented by hunger, (to eat) the haunch of a dog, receiving it the hands of a Kandala...

Please check the phrase in verse 9.335 mentioned in brackets as (in his next life). It seems to be an interpolation. Vishwamitra did tapas, burned off his sanchita, and became re-born as a brahmana within his own lifetime.

How can Manu cite the example of Vishwamitra in verse 10.108 without taking into consideration his move into an other varna in his lifetime (if Manu did consider varna as by birth only) and go on to quote his example?

But then, Manusmrithi is so self-contradictory (unless ofcourse, those verses were not the work of Manu himself but were added much later). Stuff in the smrithis and puranas (read as: caste ones) never cease to amaze me really....

Sir, sudras are not described as untouchables and they are encouraged to serve brahmins as per the numerous verses as above. So, why this happened?

It possibly happened bcoz of the very reason that shudras were asked to serve brahmins as per the dharmashastras; and this created a superior standing for brahmins (understood as priests here, not monks) plus the other 2 varnas.

And the superior standing of the 3 varnas probably caused them to have an exalted ego, which in turn resulted in their creating and perpetuating untouchability wrt dalits.

Honestly, why shd a dalit or shudra serve (or be encouraged to serve) anyone as indentured or bonded labour (and that too by birth) ?

I was just re-reading passages on a website on a seer asking brahmins to return to the varnashrama "dharma". It was painful (again as usual) no matter how perfect and logical it sounded from the spiritual point of view.....i hope that does not mean that dalits must also return to doing cleaning jobs and must never aspire for education and a better life...and to think in terms of returning to something, i wonder if the varna system was ever followed in the south until most recently really...

....i could not recognize, there were full of Dalit's leader Mr Krishnasamy's posters all over the street and main streets. I also heard there were lot of fights. And in the Agraharam, not many brahmin family lives, I think same with other groups also.

its the reality in other places, in other settings and in other contexts also now. those who feel "liberated" in this new democracy unfortunately seem to carry with them the attitude of revenge...how to handle that..

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt HH Ji,

//This is a big digression from the topic of discussion. Just cudn't help wondering abt your posts..//

In one of Sri Nara's posts he mentioned the below.
"
Whatever the truth may be, Ramanuja was a revolutionary of his time. It seems when Ramanuja was forced to leave Sri Rangam and seek refuge in Thiru Narayana puram, enroute he was lovingly cared for by NB sishyas. During his long sojourn in Melkottai he paved way to let Dalits enter the temple three days in a year. This may seem paltry now, but at that time this may have been utter blasphemy for the so called சாதி அந்தணர்!!"

So I wanted to know, when in Manusmriti, shudras are not mentioned as untouchables. But why they dalits were made untouchables during that time. That was the purpose of my posting.

I also read from various forums that manusmriti is having lot of inserts (not original). But I could not find in any forum stating which is original and which is not.

I dont understand why you mention the contradiction 1. In MS, there are various instances a brahmana becomes shudras, and at times, he takesup kshatria dharma or vysya dharma etc.

Contradiction 2- I think they mention Visvamitra after he became brahmana. Even before brahmana he was kshatria right?

//It possibly happened bcoz of the very reason that shudras were asked to serve brahmins as per the dharmashastras; and this created a superior standing for brahmins (understood as priests here, not monks) plus the other 2 varnas.

And the superior standing of the 3 varnas probably caused them to have an exalted ego, which in turn resulted in their creating and perpetuating untouchability wrt dalits. //

I think Shudras are different from Candalas. I wonder why the Dalits were treated like that. I narrated in this same thread, it was not the case in some of the villages down south TN.

//Honestly, why shd a dalit or shudra serve (or be encouraged to serve) anyone as indentured or bonded labour (and that too by birth) ?
//


I don't know if its a bonded labor thing in those times. We try to measure up with the eye of 21st century. And we get emotional and pity over shudras as mentioned by manu. I also wonder, by service means what type of service in those days. Just a imagination. If a brahmin lives as per manus definition, dalits no need to do any work as brahmin is required to do all the work himself plus he can not cook. He has to ask food from outside or eat outside. So really this bonded labor will do what? [May be today's gen have more workload and treat the maid like slaves]. So really lets analyse the services required to do for brahmanas. Why it is exclusively mentioned to serve brahmana. I think, brahmana has more soft work compared to other two varnas. More priesthood work. Learning and teaching. Like these days, they may not be too much wealth or big House to take care, (I am imagining about a normal brahmana household). They may not be wish to accumulate wealth to buy this thing that thing, [i saw TV only in the year 1980 and owned our first TV in the year 1987]. Today's education means money. So we tell everybody to get educated get a good job and MAKE MONEY. But in those days, education does not bring money, how anybody gives importance to give education....just a deep thought, I request you to imagine those period, not with today's requirements, Are the today's things were having importance in those days?????.....


Thanks for making me think on a new line.......

Regards

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Shri PVR ji,

Dear Smt HH Ji,

So I wanted to know, when in Manusmriti, shudras are not mentioned as untouchables. But why they dalits were made untouchables during that time. That was the purpose of my posting.

It is really confusing when exactly did untouchability came into origin. Hope Shri Nara can shed light on that. As far as i understand, outcastes like chandalas were treated as untouchables in the past. Though Manusmrithi is popular, its just one of the many smrithis. So info from only the Manusmrithi wud be insufficient.

I also read from various forums that manusmriti is having lot of inserts (not original). But I could not find in any forum stating which is original and which is not.

Apparently historians like someone called Surendra Kumar have worked on Manusmrithi and are able to differentiate as to which are the interpolated parts. i have not yet read thru their works so not able to say anything.

I dont understand why you mention the contradiction 1. In MS, there are various instances a brahmana becomes shudras, and at times, he takesup kshatria dharma or vysya dharma etc.

Contradiction 2- I think they mention Visvamitra after he became brahmana. Even before brahmana he was kshatria right?

If Manu considered Vishwamitra as a brahmana, obviously it means that he accepted Vishwamitra's move from one varna to another. But the verse 9.335 has put a phrase like a shudra attains (in his next life) a higher caste, suggesting that varna is by birth only and his varna for his current birth is fixed. This is what i called as self-contradictory. So does Manu think varna is by birth only or is not decided by birth or does he accept both possibilities?

I think Shudras are different from Candalas. I wonder why the Dalits were treated like that. I narrated in this same thread, it was not the case in some of the villages down south TN.

Don't know. Am hoping Shri Nara or others wud answer this.

I don't know if its a bonded labor thing in those times. We try to measure up with the eye of 21st century. And we get emotional and pity over shudras as mentioned by manu. I also wonder, by service means what type of service in those days. Just a imagination.

If a shastra has decided that a labourer will be a labourer by birth, then is it not akin to bonded labour? Leaving emotionalism aside, is it not the truth (as portrayed by some smrithis) ?

If a brahmin lives as per manus definition, dalits no need to do any work as brahmin is required to do all the work himself plus he can not cook. He has to ask food from outside or eat outside. So really this bonded labor will do what? [May be today's gen have more workload and treat the maid like slaves]. So really lets analyse the services required to do for brahmanas.

A priest obviously always got paid for his services in the form of dakshina. Why wud a priest need to seek bhiksha like a monk? Why confuse the roles of purvamimansa priests and uttaramimansa monks? Which is one of the reasons am often confounded if priests are really brahmins (going by the brahmasutra definition)...

a monk obviously does not need bonded labour, but other occupations sure might have needed a servile class..

Why it is exclusively mentioned to serve brahmana. I think, brahmana has more soft work compared to other two varnas. More priesthood work. Learning and teaching. Like these days, they may not be too much wealth or big House to take care, (I am imagining about a normal brahmana household). They may not be wish to accumulate wealth to buy this thing that thing, [i saw TV only in the year 1980 and owned our first TV in the year 1987].

The verses on serving brahmanas in Manusmrithi are imho interpolations. Why wud a King like Manu want ppl to serve brahmins? Possibly, the ones who put in those verses at a later stage might have been the brahmins (i mean priests, scribes, writers... not monks who do not seem to have much to do with social polity unless they were specifically requested to guide).

Today's education means money. So we tell everybody to get educated get a good job and MAKE MONEY. But in those days, education does not bring money, how anybody gives importance to give education....just a deep thought, I request you to imagine those period, not with today's requirements, Are the today's things were having importance in those days?????.....

Am not sure if education even today results in money. No, i did not mean money.

By education in those days one usually means access to the vedas. And vedas did not always mean shastras pertaining to ritualism - it cud be archery, accountancy, astronomy, anything.

So if sections of ppl were denied education (by birth) it means they had no means of exploration, discovery and the joys of learning.

There is this darwanian theory that the more you use something, the more it develops. In terms of environmentally influenced selection, if ppl's learning abilities were put to disuse for generations, how do you think they can start performing or even understand basic hygiene within 2 or 3 generations.......considering that education was restricted to predominantly brahmins since a few centuries now, am thinking why are not all brahmins acheivers today...please do not see this as an offensive statement....am trying to convey something in terms of a network of distributed opportunities versus distributed intelligence minus caste / gender....lets say a brahmin family is put to labour without education for 10 generations and a dalit family is provided education for 10 generations, in terms of ability who do you think is going to perform well in the 11th generation? Don't you think denying the joys of learning bcoz of caste or gender is sheer injustice?

Thanks for making me think on a new line.......

Regards

 

[Nara]

I seek some clarification Sir, because I fail to understand the following,

Dear Shri PVR,

How can I argue with personal experiences ? But you also need to wonder why Dr. Krishnaswami was able to rally his folks. I also know that the castiest feeling among brahmins is on the wane, especially among the younger generation. But it is still alive and kicking in way too many places. That is why I am pleading with everyone to look deep inside for such prejudice.

Quoting Bharathiyar, (சாதி) சிறுமை கண்டு பொங்குவாய் and சாதி கொடுமைகள் வேண்டாம், அன்பு தன்னில் தழைக்கும் வையகம்.

------------------------------------

Dear Shri Raju:
I am done with this discussion with you at present. I have nothing new to say. We can probably talk about something else elsewhere, I would enjoy that just as much as I enjoyed our exchanges here.

-----------------------------------

Now, for something completely different

I want to talk a little about formatting posts and responses. This site offers wonderful and very very easy to use formatting tools. With a little bit of effort, not too much, you can make your response a little easier to read. I want to give a few do's and don'ts. Others can expand on it. Perhaps Shri Praveen can consider compiling such a list and send it automatically to new comers.

The Dont's:

• Don't just insert you comments inside the cited text with a different color, use [/QUOTE with ] (at the end) to end citation, and [QUOTE with ] (at the end) to begin citation.
• Don't cite an entire post you are responding to within quotes and add your response at the bottom -- (many people do this -- a waste of bandwidth)
• Don't use very small font size, there are some old people here
• Don't write long paragraphs without breaks

The Do's

• Use the tag [QUOTE with ] (at the end) at the beginning of the text you want to cite and the tag [/QUOTE with ] (at the end) at the end of the cited text.
• Leave some space between cited text and your response
• Cite only the most relevant part of the text
• Break up your response into bite size paragraphs
• Preview your post and make sure it is well formatted
• Click Submit Reply only after you are satisfied with your formatting

I am not trying to be a smart alec, but I think as a courtesy to the readers we need to format our responses for maximum readability.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Dear PVR and HH,

Greetings!

I don't know the answers to a couple of questions you have directed to me, but I can speculate along with you two.

First about Viswamithra -- according to Vishnu Purana he was intended to be a Brahmana. Here is a gist of that story.

A princess was married to a Bahmana. She wanted to have a son. So did her kshathriya mother. So, this Brahmana prepared two thingamajigies, one for his wife with superior Brahmana qualities and one for his mother-in-law, with superior kshatriya qualities.

The mother-in-law thought the one prepared for her daughter would be superior and switched the two. Her son was Viswamithra. So, you see, he was supposed to be a Brahmana, but was born as Kashatriya because of his mothers vishamam. This is the reason he was able to change his varna. He was intended to be a Brahmana all along.​

When did untouchablity start?

Let me cite directly from an introduction written by Mr. Ravikumar, MLA from the Dalit Panther Party, for the book "Dalits in Dravidian Land" a collection of essays/columns written by S. Viswanathan for the magazine Frontline.

• It seems untouchability existed even during Sangam period, but not based on birth, but was based on profession.
• Birth based untouchability started taking root only after Buddism and Jainism were replaced with Vedic Brahminism.
• Iyothee Das and Ambedkar seem to believe the vanquished Buddists were turned into untouchables.
• There is inscriptions in Gangai Konda Cholapuram that includes references to தீண்டா சேரி (settlement of untouchables) as well as பரசேரி. Does this mean paraiyas were not untouchable at one time? I don't know.

There is more....

Jathi classifications must have existed all along as references can be foud in Sanga literature. Whether untouchability existed all along and if it did, in what form, it is hard to say.

The term Candala is used in Azhvar poetry. Azhvars use this term Candala to describe a person who is supposed to of the lowliest of low status, to give a sort of shock value for what the Azhvar was proposing -- even if he is Candala treat him as your superior etc.

So we can speculate that about 1300 years ago untouchability based on birth must have existed.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Thankyou Shri Nara.

Thanks to you, I have been reading up works by dalit writers since a few days now (a very long way to go in understanding the nuances..). Discrimination against them seems to have existed since atleast the colonial period....reg intermingling, i suppose muslim invasions resulted in quite an upheavel and mixing.

On one hand wars resulted in shastras being made rigid with strict laws as means of preventing intermingling, and on the other hand intermingling seems to have been unpreventable. I heard that muslims rulers also made defeated hindus, like soilders who resisted conversion, into menial job workers or untouchables.

When did untouchablity start?

Let me cite directly from an introduction written by Mr. Ravikumar, MLA from the Dalit Panther Party, for the book "Dalits in Dravidian Land" a collection of essays/columns written by S. Viswanathan for the magazine Frontline.

• It seems untouchability existed even during Sangam period, but not based on birth, but was based on profession.
• Birth based untouchability started taking root only after Buddism and Jainism were replaced with Vedic Brahminism.
• Iyothee Das and Ambedkar seem to believe the vanquished Buddists were turned into untouchables.
• There is inscriptions in Gangai Konda Cholapuram that includes references to தீண்டா சேரி (settlement of untouchables) as well as பரசேரி. Does this mean paraiyas were not untouchable at one time? I don't know.

Reg the above, my guess is that people in professions seen as polluting (unhygenic) (like ghat workers, those handling dead bodies, cleaners, etc) were stratified into untouchables by birth in the dharmashastra era (from abt 500 bc). Slowly at first and rigidly later perhaps. There is no untouchability in the vedas.

The dharmashastra and puranic era was also the time when buddhism dwindled and hindusim began rising. Puranas (like Padma Purana) were supposedly written all the way from abt 300 AD to abt 1500 AD (so not sure if one can say that the puranic content was all true). This is an interesting para on interpolations in the dharmashastras (para 23): http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe14/sbe1402.htm

Reg smrithis, read a post quite some time back in religiousforums.com where a member had posted that his father had written a smrithi. He had also posted some excerpts and the verses in the best of Sanskrit were amazing. So, writing stuff might not have been tough (or perhaps sometimes the things that got written down were not really divinely inspired..).

Anyways, now that the past is past and there is no point looking back, what are the means of creating a better hindu society ??

Regards.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Mr. Narayan,
Thank you. I too enjoyed the discussion with you.I too hope to have the benefit of a future discussion with you sometime whean an opportauniaty comes. Thanks.

 

[pvraman]

Dear Shri Nara,

Thanks for your reply.

"Birth based untouchability started taking root only after Buddism and Jainism were replaced with Vedic Brahminism."

I read this as Vedic Brahminism came into picture again after Buddism and Jainism!, did i read correctly?

Because Before Buddism & Jainism, Vedic Brahminism too was there right? If it was, then why the untouchability based on the caste was not there before buddism and Jainism.

Thanks for your informations
Regards

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt HH Ji,

Thanks for your post.

"......considering that education was restricted to predominantly brahmins since a few centuries now, am thinking why are not all brahmins acheivers today..."

IMHO, the education (or learning vedas) are allowed for all the 3 varnas. Only Brahmins can teach as per MS (Manusmriti).. I still did not start with other scriptures, I may do it in due time, So i am restricted to comment with the reference to Manusmriti only.

"
There is this darwanian theory that the more you use something, the more it develops. In terms of environmentally influenced selection, if ppl's learning abilities were put to disuse for generations, how do you think they can start performing or even understand basic hygiene within 2 or 3 generations."

If the same applies to brahmins who were the only educated one till 19th century (for a long long long time), why within one generation, there are many Bs whose intelligence is lower than other NBs (Like me for an example) who had the opportunity only after revolution, so to say.

Besides, I do not think, it takes generations to follow, as for as my experience goes all it takes a single generation. We just watch around and we can find. Many high class people can stoop to any level and many "low" class people can achieve within one generations. We have lot of NB achievers within one generation.


"...please do not see this as an offensive statement....am trying to convey something in terms of a network of distributed opportunities versus distributed intelligence minus caste / gender....lets say a brahmin family is put to labour without education for 10 generations and a dalit family is provided education for 10 generations, in terms of ability who do you think is going to perform well in the 11th generation? Don't you think denying the joys of learning bcoz of caste or gender is sheer injustice?"

No madam, I dont take it as offensive. First of all, I am not clear about the services they did to brahmana's during those times (I am searching for the life at time). By the description you make it sounds like a present day Andhra கல் குவாரி labor, but i really try to understand what type of labor they required to do. Many instances, they are allowed to do all the things what brahmana does without reciting vedas.

IMHO, In Sudra varnas there will be other varnas also included who did not live as defined by MS. For an example, i myself straight away would have fallen into Shudra Category if MS is prevailed today. Because I consider, the brahmana job and living style with conditions as defined in MS would be very difficult to follow and impossible without help of other 3 (for other 3 also same - interdependent). I just request you to go through it.

My action plan for the betterment of Shudra castes - I would like to implement, compulsory free education to all children till 12th standard, Dalits and financially backward classes will be admitted to any division of studies (including engineering & medical) FREE, and all student's choices of field of education will be fulfilled irrespective of marks scored.

Mark based selection is flawed. Sometimes students who score bad marks, shine in various professions.

(if the education is for joy and gaining knowledge, and not a means of making money alone - it should be free to everybody without strings attached).

Regards

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri PVR ji,

First i wud like to apologise if there is anything offensive in my posts. I have been reading a lot of dalit literature and sort of getting influenced by it (dunno if some of those are exagerrated accounts) - so am not sure if am making inadverant remarks without realizing how they wud read or be understood.

IMHO, the education (or learning vedas) are allowed for all the 3 varnas. Only Brahmins can teach as per MS (Manusmriti).. I still did not start with other scriptures, I may do it in due time, So i am restricted to comment with the reference to Manusmriti only.

i have no idea abt the prefixed stand that only brahmins were allowed to teach. Since you are quoting this from the Manusmrithi, am unable to say anything. As far as i understand, it seems that verses in favour of brahmins in MS were later day interpolations (not written by Manu himself).

If the same applies to brahmins who were the only educated one till 19th century (for a long long long time), why within one generation, there are many Bs whose intelligence is lower than other NBs (Like me for an example) who had the opportunity only after revolution, so to say.

Besides, I do not think, it takes generations to follow, as for as my experience goes all it takes a single generation. We just watch around and we can find. Many high class people can stoop to any level and many "low" class people can achieve within one generations. We have lot of NB achievers within one generation.

i think its all about opportunities. Unless one gets the opportunity to explore, his ability will remain unknown. Einstein's parents and grandparents were not considered very bright or scientific, and his descendents did not do much either. So, IQ really is an abstract concept - very individualistic i wud think, like a man's karma is his alone.

No madam, I dont take it as offensive. First of all, I am not clear about the services they did to brahmana's during those times (I am searching for the life at time). By the description you make it sounds like a present day Andhra கல் குவாரி labor, but i really try to understand what type of labor they required to do. Many instances, they are allowed to do all the things what brahmana does without reciting vedas.

With that labour versus education example i gave, what i meant was what if a family was put to labour (without education) like farming, cleaning, tending cattle, and so on. Any reason why such ppl shd be denied the opportunity and joy of 'reciting' the vedas? And by "vedas" what branch of knowledge did they mean?

IMHO, In Sudra varnas there will be other varnas also included who did not live as defined by MS. For an example, i myself straight away would have fallen into Shudra Category if MS is prevailed today. Because I consider, the brahmana job and living style with conditions as defined in MS would be very difficult to follow and impossible without help of other 3 (for other 3 also same - interdependent). I just request you to go through it.

Firstly sir, who knows which parts of the MS are authentic and which parts are interpolated......am not sure, but from the Manusmrithi verses (verses 10.81 and 10.82) you quoted in your post 171 previously, you probably seem to think that (all?) smrithis allowed brahmins to move into other occupations. Yes those MS verses allowed brahmins to move into other occupations (though the possibility remains that the verses were later day additions), but other smrithis like Gautama smrithi strictly forbid a brahmin from seeking other occupations (which again only God wud know if it was a later day addition or not). But what confuses me is Paramacharya's words in "Varna Dharma for Universal Well Being" - He seems to think that a brahmin shd not seek other occupations; and am unable to understand why exactly (possibly bcoz the decendents cud not be called brahmins if they did so then). In such a case i find the words on varna by birth as conflicting.

My action plan for the betterment of Shudra castes - I would like to implement, compulsory free education to all children till 12th standard, Dalits and financially backward classes will be admitted to any division of studies (including engineering & medical) FREE, and all student's choices of field of education will be fulfilled irrespective of marks scored.

Mark based selection is flawed. Sometimes students who score bad marks, shine in various professions.

(if the education is for joy and gaining knowledge, and not a means of making money alone - it should be free to everybody without strings attached).

Honestly speaking, on a personal level i am against reservations as much as i find killing of animals or any living being disgusting. But then, that's me at the personal level. On a social level there is not much choice... there is the reservation system already - i only wish that it should not be based on caste, instead it shd be based on the family's annual income - only in that way will the poor be able to get an education.

Some current so-called dalits seem to carry within them the revenge bhava...imho, revenge in any form will solve nothing, neither is it going to help anyone improve his position, nor is it going to help create an inclusive society. Hopefully over time, hands are extended from both sides (by so-called "brahmins" and so-called "dalits") towards mutual friendship and growth.

An all-inclusive society can be acheived....it is a hope and wish that all vedapatshalas take in students irrespective of caste, someday. Amongst brahmin families, who is sending their children to vedapatshalas now (nobody is interested in grooming their son into becoming a shastrigal, they want him to become a computer engineer, etc). There are no NB families interested in grooming their sons into priests either. Everyone is interested in making money overseas. So what harm is there is opening up admissions in vedapatshalas? i think it wud drastically reduce the existing animosity..

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt HH ji,

"An all-inclusive society can be acheived....it is a hope and wish that all vedapatshalas take in students irrespective of caste, someday. Amongst brahmin families, who is sending their children to vedapatshalas now (nobody is interested in grooming their son into becoming a shastrigal, they want him to become a computer engineer, etc). There are no NB families interested in grooming their sons into priests either. Everyone is interested in making money overseas. So what harm is there is opening up admissions in vedapatshalas? i think it wud drastically reduce the existing animosity.."

I totally agree to this. Its high time, we should think about in those lines.

Regards

 

[Ramansrini]

I just wanted to share about Acharya Ramanuja tradition in this forum. Ramanuja gave the secret doctrine of 'prapatti' (self -surrender) to the whole world. He opened the gates of Sri Vaikuntam for anyone, irrespective of caste, creed or sex.

The general opinion is only Iyengars are Vaishnavas in TN, but that is not true. Iyengars initiate and guide other Vaishnavas. Our family had an Iyengar guru who was in Srirangam. During my grand parent time, Iyengars used to come to our village, and guide the families that are designated to him. In fact, my grand parents were initiated to Samsashravanam.

Now a days, all Iyegars gave up that tradition and took some other jobs, so we all don’t have any acharyas for our initiation.

 

[RVR]

I just wanted to share about Acharya Ramanuja tradition in this forum. Ramanuja gave the secret doctrine of 'prapatti' (self -surrender) to the whole world. He opened the gates of Sri Vaikuntam for anyone, irrespective of caste, creed or sex.

The general opinion is only Iyengars are Vaishnavas in TN, but that is not true. Iyengars initiate and guide other Vaishnavas. Our family had an Iyengar guru who was in Srirangam. During my grand parent time, Iyengars used to come to our village, and guide the families that are designated to him. In fact, my grand parents were initiated to Samsashravanam.

Now a days, all Iyegars gave up that tradition and took some other jobs, so we all don’t have any acharyas for our initiation.

Some of my friends belonging to Rajapalayam Raja community who are vaishnavites go to Srirengam and get initiated.

May be visiting villages have stopped but initiation is still going on.

All the best

 

[Ramansrini]

Thanks RVR. I do voluntary work in the temple every Sunday and we have two Smartha priests and two Vaishnava priests in our temple. I will check with the priest this Sunday.

 

[ramabadran]

excellent quotes about our relation with everyone but our identy should also be
respected

 

[Raghy]

excellent quotes about our relation with everyone but our identy should also be
respected

Sri Ramabadran,

Can you kindly eloberate about 'our identity', please? Who should respect our identity? Thank you.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Since this a Vaishnavam thread, I want to share this.
Click on the link given

Invocation - Sri Vishnu Sahasaranama - Sanskrit, Transliteration and English Translation

renuka

 

[Raghy]

Dear Shri Nara,

Thanks for your reply.

"Birth based untouchability started taking root only after Buddism and Jainism were replaced with Vedic Brahminism."

I read this as Vedic Brahminism came into picture again after Buddism and Jainism!, did i read correctly?

Because Before Buddism & Jainism, Vedic Brahminism too was there right? If it was, then why the untouchability based on the caste was not there before buddism and Jainism.

Thanks for your informations
Regards

Sri. PVR Sir,

Untouchability existed way before Buddhism or Jainism. 'Yoga Vasishta' was told by Vasishta to Rama as written by Valmiki.
Vasistha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I read a story in Yoga Vasishta in which, untouchability was there. Untouchability pre-dates Rama's period.

Cheers!