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  1. #31
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    When we turn to these texts for their ideas on history, and this has been done and is continuing to be done, various problems have surfaced. Among them, are the problems of the range of versions of the texts, and of their periods of composition. There are many versions either of an entire text or of segments of the texts. Even if we take what are regarded by some as the earliest versions of the epics, each was put together over a period of a few centuries. The period of composition is debated, some taking it from about 400 BC to AD 400, others arguing for one century but the particular century remains uncertain.

    Composition over a period of time means diverse authors, so we need to ask who they were and what were their frameworks of reference? The Valmiki Ramayana, in the period between 400 BC and AD 400, had at least two contenders – the Buddhist version, the Dasaratha Jataka, and the Jaina version, Vimalasuri’s Paumachariyam – both contradicting the Valmiki version. In the Buddhist version Rama and Sita are siblings, and in the Jaina version Ravana is not a rakshasa but a respectable member of the Meghavahana lineage and the fantasies of the other Ramayana are given rational explanations.


    Narrative segments from the Mahabharata, some linked to the main events, when narrated in the Jatakas are not always in agreement with the epic. Yet the way in which the narrative is told and events explained gives us a glimpse of a sense of history in historical texts. The Buddhist and Jaina versions are alternate texts to the Valmiki and Vyasa versions. Should we just ignore these or do we ask why are they saying something different? What does this mean for historical reconstruction?


    http://www.sacw.net/article10319.html

    Last edited by prasad1; 16-06-2018 at 04:15 PM.
  2. #32
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    Each century produced different versions of the epic stories, some with significant variations. They were composed in a variety of languages by a variety of authors all over the subcontinent. And then the Mahabharata and the Ramayana narratives spread to south-east Asia and, apart from being sculpted as panels on temple walls, were also rendered into epic texts in various local languages by local authors. Are these still to be treated as the authentic histories of India, conveying the Indian sense of history?


    Which Purana do we take as representing an authentic view of the Indian past? The structure and contents of the Vishnu Purana are quite different from the Skanda Purana written at very different periods – so which is an authentic history? Those that advocate these texts as their preferred history of India are perhaps unfamiliar with the text and its variants. By what methods do we decide on the historicity of these texts? Or are we supposed to argue that historicity like history is irrelevant? However, we can at least see how these historical texts have represented their own society and the society that preceded them, if we are to treat them as historiography. This has been done and is continuing to be done by historians of early India. But it seems that those wanting to write history from the epics and Puranas are unaware of this research and the publications that have followed.

    http://www.sacw.net/article10319.html
    Last edited by prasad1; 16-06-2018 at 04:16 PM.
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  4. #33
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    SHIVA GITA is a conversation between and Lord Shiva and Sri Ramachandramoorthy, where Lord Shiva gives transcendental knowledge to Lord Rama and finally shows his Viraat Roopa to Sri Rama. It comes in Padma Purana. It talks about Bhakti Yoga, Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga, Kriya Yoga and so on. Below is the link.

    Shiva Gita Archives - महापाशुपतास्त्र


    In the 13th Chapter Moksha Yoga Lord Shiva talks about various kinds of Mukti:


    Rama said: O graceful lord! Kindly grace me by explaining the symptoms of Mukti and related details. Sri Bhagawan said: O Rama, Listen! Mukti is of five types by names Salokyam, Sarupyam, Sarsthyam (Sameepyam), Sayujyam, and Kaivalyam. One who worships me without asking anything (nishkama), he comes to my abode and enjoys all fruition, and gets to live in an equal abode. This is called as Salokya Mukti. One who doesn’t have any desires and realizes me among the superior ones and worships me, he gets my kind of form. This is called as Sarupya Mukti.


    One who performs Ishtapoortadi-Karmas (rituals) for me, whatever he does, whatever he eats, whatever he offers to the sacrificial fire, whatever he donates, whatever penance he performs, when he does that keeping me in mind for my sake, he enjoys prosperity in my abode alongwith me. This is called Sarshtya Mukti (also known as sameepyam Mukti because he stays close to lord). One who has all good qualities and realizes me as the Paramatman and knows the non-duality between him and me, he gains Sayujyam Mukti and then gains the Advaita (non-duality) Kaivalya Mukti by becoming one with the Paramjyoti. Becomong one with the self is Mukti, the Kaivalyam.


    Nothing exists other than me and I alone remain. It is not possible to see my form. None can see me with the eyes of flesh. However with a steady mind, inside his own heart being inward focussed one can see me within him, such a one gains final bestitude called liberation.


    In the 14th Chapter Panchakoshopasana talks about surrender:


    Lord Shiva said: O Rama of mighty arms! No need to worry about these things. This Maya which comprises of Satwa, rajo and Tamo qualities; cannot be sailed accross by anyone. Only those who surrendering themselves totally take my refuge, such humans only get fried from this maya.

    https://www.quora.com/How-did-Lord-V...hiva-originate



    If Shiva had to educate Rama, why would Shiva then praise "RAMA"?
    Last edited by prasad1; 16-06-2018 at 04:55 PM.
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  6. #34
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    In the Kurma Purana, Ishvara Gita, Lord Shiva says:

    He who is called Narayana, the infinite one, the immutable source of all worlds and who is only another form of mine, performs the duty of protection.


    One more interesting fact of Ishvara Gita is that it is the original Bhagavad Gita. At the end of Ishvara Gita, it is said that:

    Lord Narayana, Hari, the son of Devaki, himself gave this excellent knowledge to Arjuna (2.11.131-132)

    This confirms the fact that Bhagavad Gita was originally spoken by Lord Shiva to Lord Narayana and all the sages.

    One of the names of Lord Shiva to mention in Shiva Sahasranamam:

    * 904 * Om Paryayonaraya nama - He (Lord Shiva) is the soul of Virat Pursha (Maha Vishnu) which is spread everywhere.

    https://www.quora.com/How-did-Lord-V...hiva-originate


    It just goes to show that our ancient literature, were pure fictions.
    Who is superior to all other is a pure bias of the writer, and his/her followers.
    Last edited by prasad1; 16-06-2018 at 05:03 PM.
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  8. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasad1 View Post
    In the Kurma Purana, Ishvara Gita, Lord Shiva says:

    He who is called Narayana, the infinite one, the immutable source of all worlds and who is only another form of mine, performs the duty of protection.


    One more interesting fact of Ishvara Gita is that it is the original Bhagavad Gita. At the end of Ishvara Gita, it is said that:

    Lord Narayana, Hari, the son of Devaki, himself gave this excellent knowledge to Arjuna (2.11.131-132)

    This confirms the fact that Bhagavad Gita was originally spoken by Lord Shiva to Lord Narayana and all the sages.

    One of the names of Lord Shiva to mention in Shiva Sahasranamam:

    * 904 * Om Paryayonaraya nama - He (Lord Shiva) is the soul of Virat Pursha (Maha Vishnu) which is spread everywhere.

    https://www.quora.com/How-did-Lord-V...hiva-originate


    It just goes to show that our ancient literature, were pure fictions.
    Who is superior to all other is a pure bias of the writer, and his/her followers.
    So finally what is true?
    It is becoming depressing to note so much " fabrication" and biasness in texts all written according to the perception of the writer.

    What is Real and what in Unreal?

    Finally one feels " cheated" !
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  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by renuka View Post
    So finally what is true?
    It is becoming depressing to note so much " fabrication" and biasness in texts all written according to the perception of the writer.

    What is Real and what in Unreal?

    Finally one feels " cheated" !

    Probably ignorance is bliss!!!!! NOT
  11. All views expressed by the Members and Moderators here are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the TamilBrahmins.com Website.
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasad1 View Post
    Probably ignorance is bliss!!!!! NOT
    Exactly!

    At times I admire simple minds and simple hearts..they pray from their hearts with faith and love.

    I am such an idiot...keep reading and analyzing and finally feel " cheated"! LOL
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  14. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasad1 View Post
    When we turn to these texts for their ideas on history, and this has been done and is continuing to be done, various problems have surfaced. Among them, are the problems of the range of versions of the texts, and of their periods of composition. There are many versions either of an entire text or of segments of the texts. Even if we take what are regarded by some as the earliest versions of the epics, each was put together over a period of a few centuries. The period of composition is debated, some taking it from about 400 BC to AD 400, others arguing for one century but the particular century remains uncertain.

    Composition over a period of time means diverse authors, so we need to ask who they were and what were their frameworks of reference? The Valmiki Ramayana, in the period between 400 BC and AD 400, had at least two contenders – the Buddhist version, the Dasaratha Jataka, and the Jaina version, Vimalasuri’s Paumachariyam – both contradicting the Valmiki version. In the Buddhist version Rama and Sita are siblings, and in the Jaina version Ravana is not a rakshasa but a respectable member of the Meghavahana lineage and the fantasies of the other Ramayana are given rational explanations.


    Narrative segments from the Mahabharata, some linked to the main events, when narrated in the Jatakas are not always in agreement with the epic. Yet the way in which the narrative is told and events explained gives us a glimpse of a sense of history in historical texts. The Buddhist and Jaina versions are alternate texts to the Valmiki and Vyasa versions. Should we just ignore these or do we ask why are they saying something different? What does this mean for historical reconstruction?


    http://www.sacw.net/article10319.html

    Oh my kaduvale!

    It only gets worse!

    Rama and Sita are siblings..in Buddhist version?
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  16. #39
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    I am not getting into this Siva - Vishnu debate. In my view it is the same as Energy- Mass debate. They are equivalent. Mass is also energy impeded by Higgs field. So it's ultimately all energy (Siva). But then it is 'mass' (Vishnu) that creates, sustains and evolves the Universe. Vishnu/Mass is the 'Will' that is getting expressed.

    As 'KRN' pointed out 'rAmo virAmo virajo mArgo neyA nayonaya' says VSN. My translation of it (strictly mine) is

    The enjoyer (rAma) detached (virAmo) causal ocean (viraja) path (mArga) governed/managed by (neya) by drawing to Himself.

    "Vishnu is the detached enjoyer in the Causal Ocean path which governs/ manages by drawing to Himself"

    I translate it as the 'Higgs field' (causual ocean) that draws to itself the 'energy' (impedes movement of energy). Ofcourse, it's just my translation.

    For eg TRS Iyengar translates it as 'rAma- who delights, virAma - the final goal, virAja-mArga - the unattached path, neyanayo - who draws to himself'.

    The rAma referred to by 'Shiva' is this 'rAma' and not the dasaratha rAma, who came later (in my understanding).

    -TBT
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  18. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigthinkg View Post
    I am not getting into this Siva - Vishnu debate. In my view it is the same as Energy- Mass debate. They are equivalent. Mass is also energy impeded by Higgs field. So it's ultimately all energy (Siva). But then it is 'mass' (Vishnu) that creates, sustains and evolves the Universe. Vishnu/Mass is the 'Will' that is getting expressed.

    As 'KRN' pointed out 'rAmo virAmo virajo mArgo neyA nayonaya' says VSN. My translation of it (strictly mine) is

    The enjoyer (rAma) detached (virAmo) causal ocean (viraja) path (mArga) governed/managed by (neya) by drawing to Himself.

    "Vishnu is the detached enjoyer in the Causal Ocean path which governs/ manages by drawing to Himself"

    I translate it as the 'Higgs field' (causual ocean) that draws to itself the 'energy' (impedes movement of energy). Ofcourse, it's just my translation.

    For eg TRS Iyengar translates it as 'rAma- who delights, virAma - the final goal, virAja-mArga - the unattached path, neyanayo - who draws to himself'.

    The rAma referred to by 'Shiva' is this 'rAma' and not the dasaratha rAma, who came later (in my understanding).

    -TBT
    Might be Ramadhan for all I know! LOL
  19. All views expressed by the Members and Moderators here are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the TamilBrahmins.com Website.
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