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Sri Rama Rama Rama

#1
Question

Why does Isvara tell pArvati 'Sri rAma rAma rAma iti rame rAme manorame sahasra nAma tatulyam rAma nAma varAnane".


Answer

When pArvati questions iSvara, if there is any simpler way to recite the sahasra nAma of Vishnu, iSvara answers in the above way. Often people translate, interpret this sloka in the way they wish.

First, let's be clear that Vishnu Sahasra nAma does not have 1000 names of Vishnu, contrary to popular belief. Though it is called Sahasra Nama in fact it contains only 901 distinct sounding names. Eight hundred and fifteen names are repeated once, Seventy-five of these names are repeated twice, nine of these names thrice and two of these names four times. Interpretations that are based on the assumption of 'thousand' distinct names are not valid for this reason.


This sloka means

"Sri rAma rAma rAma iti (thus) (is)rame (the one that is enjoyed)rAme (the one who is the enjoyer)manorame (the manas that enjoys).tat(Those) Sahasra nAma ( innumerous names)are equal (tulyam) rAma nAma (to the name of rAma)vara anane (living suitor - better half)"


The words rAma, rAma, rAma is equal to the numerous names of vishnu, because, rAma rAma rAma means the one that is enjoyed (rame), the physical enjoyer (rAme) and mind enjoyer (manorame).

rAma is the enjoyer. For eg., balarAma means one who enjoys his strength. parasurAma means one who enjoys playing/handling the parasu. sappatu rAma means one who enjoys the food.

Vishnu is the one that is enjoyed,Vishnu is the physical enjoyer and the mind-enjoyer. This is also said by Krishna in Bhagavad Gita. Krishna (Vishnu) is the player (Knower), playground (Knowledge) and the observer (Enjoyer), all the three.


So the words rame, rAme, manorame are critical to the understanding of the sloka. By saying rAma, rAma, rAma we are remembering the Vishnu as the one that is enjoyed, as the physical enjoyer as ourselves and the manas/Atmanas in us that enjoys. We see that vishnu in everything.

That is the crux of Vishnu Sahasra nAma


-TBT
 

renuka

Well-known member
#2
rAmaH as you have said is " one who enjoys"

Fair enough....so why is Vishnu linked here?

Any quadrons..photons or higgins?
 

CHANDRU1849

Well-known member
#3
The purpose of linking Shiva with Rama is primarily to give importance to Vishnu, since Rama happens to be the reincarnation of Vishnu as per one of the schools of Hinduism.

The followers of Shiva would not have thought His name is linked with a human being say Rama, as Saivism, I believe, did not give any importance at all to Rama. It speaks only about formless God.

It is a clever manipulation with the help of Brahmins, in general, which stretches till date thru Bhagavathas and Smarths Brahmins in Tamil Nadu, in particular, to place Vaishnavism above other forms, thru Rama.

The above particular verse in Vishnu Sahasranamam needs critical study.
 

renuka

Well-known member
#4
The purpose of linking Shiva with Rama is primarily to give importance to Vishnu, since Rama happens to be the reincarnation of Vishnu as per one of the schools of Hinduism.

The followers of Shiva would not have thought His name is linked with a human being say Rama, as Saivism, I believe, did not give any importance at all to Rama. It speaks only about formless God.

It is a clever manipulation with the help of Brahmins, in general, which stretches till date thru Bhagavathas and Smarths Brahmins in Tamil Nadu, in particular, to place Vaishnavism above other forms, thru Rama.

The above particular verse in Vishnu Sahasranamam needs critical study.
Shiva and Parvati seem to be intellectual and discuss many important philosophical details...

Is there such discussions between Vishnu and Lakshmi?
Do they ever discuss about the Shiva principle?
 

CHANDRU1849

Well-known member
#5
Amalgamation of major forms of worship in Hinduism is a good one if the purpose is to bring unity among Hindus.

But in reality, in order to glorify one Sect, other Sects are sometimes shown in poor light, which is not desirable.
 
#6
rAmaH as you have said is " one who enjoys"

Fair enough....so why is Vishnu linked here?

Any quadrons..photons or higgins?
All the Universe is made of particles that have property of mass. 'Mass' is what creates, sustains and evolves the Universe. The property of Mass is the ramA, rAma and manoramA.

But mass is nothing but energy impeded by Higgs field and creating an energy density in a region of spacetime. Thus mass ultimately is energy.

At the same time just energy does not create the universe. It is the 'property of mass' caused by Higgs field, that creates, sustains and evolves the observable Universe.

So energy (Shiva) states Vishnu (mass) is the ramA, rAma, manoramA.

Enjoy. :)

-TBT
 

a-TB

Active member
#7
Someone told me that this line which is repeated at the end in chanting Vishnu Sahasranamam was never in the original scriptures and is an add on.

Experts in the forum who know how to check such things may know what is true.
 

prasad1

Well-known member
#8
The Sahasranama such as the Vishnu Sahasra Nama, are not found in early Samhita manuscripts, rather found in medieval and later versions of various Samhitas. One of the significant works on Sahasranama is from the sub-school of Ramanuja and the Vishnu Sahasra-namam Bhasya (commentary) by 12th-century Parasara Bhattar.



Tantrikas chant the Bhavani Nāma Sahasra Stuti and the Kali Sahasranāma. While the Vishnu and Shiva Sahāsranamas are popular amongst all Hindus, the Lalita Sahasranama is mostly chanted in South India. The Ganesha Sahasranama is mainly chanted by Ganapatya. The Bhavani Nāma Sahasra Stuti is the choice of Kashmiri Paṇḍits and the Kali Sahasranāma is mostly chanted by Bengalis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahasranama
 

prasad1

Well-known member
#9

Shiva ( Siva) as we know him today was unknown to the Vedic people. They knew a form of Shiva who was different from the Shiva who was worshipped elsewhere in the Indian subcontinent.

They worshipped a deity who personified their fears and anxieties in an unfamiliar territory surrounded by hostile tribes and an unfavorable nature.

But the Vedic people had a different concept of Shiva. They were not very familiar with his peaceful or adorable forms. They perceived him mostly as a god of anger, death and destruction and feared him most. Uttering his very name on some occasions was considered inauspicious and necessitated the performance of certain rituals.

He was relatively unknown in the early Vedic period, but as time went, by he superceded most of the vedic gods and was recognized not only as Brahman or the highest of all gods but also as part of the Hindu Trinity as the destroyer along with Brahma the Creator god and Vishnu the preserver.Prior to his integration into Vedic religion,

Lord Shiva was worshipped mainly outside the Vedic society by people with whom they were not very familiar. Even today we find Lord Shiva being exceptionally popular among many ancient tribes of India such as the Chenchus and the Malavans who live in the remote areas of South India and consider Shiva not only as a hunter and a forest deity but also as the ancestor of their tribes.

The Vedic God Rudra was superimposed on Shiva to give authenticity and to place him in Vedas.

Vishnu came even later than Shiva.

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/siva/vedicconnection.asp
 
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prasad1

Well-known member
#10
The Rg Veda (and it’s divisions into Sama, Yajur, and it’s appendix, the Atharva) is almost exclusively concerned with religious rituals meant to elevate human beings to heaven / paradise, where Indra is the supreme ruler. Therefore these books present everything from the perspective of paradise. We almost only hear about Vishnu and other deities in terms of how they relate to Indra, the lord of paradise.

In the Rig Veda, which is the holiest of the four Vedas, Vishnu is mentioned numerous times alongside other gods, such as Indra.

He is particularly associated with light and especially with the Sun. In early texts, Vishnu is not included as one of the original seven solar gods (Adityas), but in later texts he is mentioned as leading them.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/hinduism/deities/vishnu.shtml
 
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prasad1

Well-known member
#11
The translations of the Rig Veda verses used in this post are by Stephanie W. Jamison and Joel P. Brereton. They can be accessedhere. The reason why I have used these translations instead of Griffith's translation is that it is in modern English, and therefore easier to understand than Griffith's translation, which is in old English.

Shiva — A Pre-Vedic God
According to the Rig Veda, the oldest Veda, worship of the Shiva Lingam (phallus) was considered improper, and hence the Vedic people were dead against the worship of the Shiva Lingam.
Rig Veda 7.21.5:
na yātava indra jūjuvurno na vandanā śaviṣṭha vedyābhiḥ |
sa śardhadaryo viṣuṇasya jantormā śiśnadevā api ghurtaṃ naḥ ||
Sorcerers do not incite us, Indra, nor sycophants with their knowing wiles, o most powerful one. He [=Indra?] will vaunt himself over the stranger, over the race contrary (to our ways). Let the phallus-worshipers not penetrate our truth.
Rig Veda 10.99.3:
sa vājaṃ yātāpaduṣpadā yan svarṣātā pari ṣadatsaniṣyan |
anarvā yacchatadurasya vedo ghnañchiśnadevānabhi varpasā bhūt ||
He is the one who drives to the prize, though going with a (horse?) whose “off” foot is lame [?] . At the winning of the sun, intending to win he laid siege to it,when, unassailable, smashing the phallus-worshipers, with his form he prevailed over the property of (the place?) with a hundred doors.

http://ancientbharatvarsha.blogspot.com/2017/07/shiva-pre-vedic-god-vishnu-post-vedic.html

 
#12
In my understanding VSN should be very very old, may be along with Vedas, unlike other SahasranAma. I say this because many other sahasranAmas are actually names which do not give a coherent meaning when recited together.

In VSN, for eg, Visvam vishnor VashatkAro is simply 'The entire Universe is in the realm of Vishnu". "Atma Yoni Swayam JAto" means one who was self-born from the Yoni of Atma. My thesis is other sahasranAmas got written based on VSN, later.

My thinking is when the real knowledge transmission of 'revelations' were lost (or never existed), their texts were only transmitted. Investigation into such transmitted texts lead to development of other literatures like Upanishads, Puranas, Vedanta etc..

Shiva is energy. Vishnu is mass. Energy is declaring that without mass Universe in the form of enjoyed, enjoyer and the virtual enjoyer cannot exist.

Shiva is in Vedas. Shi-va means 'in which we lie' (which is energy). Shiva got translated as auspicious, as auspicious can said to be 'filled with energy'..

Shiva worship and Vishnu worship and their fights came much later on account of understanding the vedic texts. But as Einstien said or Vedas say, Shiva (Energy) and Vishnu (mass) are same. Everything is ultimately Shiva (Energy). But it is Vishnu (mass) that makes the Universe, sustains the Universe, evolves the Universe.

The 'Western scholarly' interpretation of Vedic texts were based on the assumption that Rk Veda was 'written' (not revealed/heard) and it represents a civilization in time. Hence they use parameters like how many times a 'divinity' is mentioned and brush aside how we see as later day changes.

-TBT
 

CHANDRU1849

Well-known member
#13
As usual, the thread is deviating from the main area I.e. Shiva/Parvati and Rama Rama.

Instead of giving meaningful explanation for glorifying a human say Rama by God and Goddess, some of the replies travel to Veda period which in no way provides reasonable explanation.
 
#14
As usual, the thread is deviating from the main area I.e. Shiva/Parvati and Rama Rama.

Instead of giving meaningful explanation for glorifying a human say Rama by God and Goddess, some of the replies travel to Veda period which in no way provides reasonable explanation.
Please read the OP.

In VSN, Vishnu is being talked about. 'Shiva'is explaining that the Crux of VSN is 'rAma', 'rAma', 'rAma'. That is because Vishnu is 'ramA' (the one that is enjoyed), rAma (the physical enjoyer), manorame (the enjoying mind).

So the crux of VSN is Vishnu is everything. That's all. Vishnu is the playground, player and the observer. That's the essence of VSN.

When we say 'rAma' 'rAma' 'rAma' (3 times) we remember Vishnu is the rAma (Enjoyer), ramA (enoyed), manorama (mind enjoyer).

It is upto us to see that 'rAma' as 'dasaratha rAma' or not. Dasaratha named his sons 'rAma' (the enjoyer/ruler), 'lakSmana' (the emblem/insignia/mark), 'bharata' (bearer/sustainer), 'shatrugna' (slayer of enemies). rAma as the first born, was born to rule. lakSmana as the second born was the 'mark' of rAma, shadowing him wherever he is. bharata as the third born was the bearer or sustainer of kingdom, defends/maintains the Kingdom against onslaughts. Shatrugna as the last born was the ferocious slayer of enemies, waging wars.

-TBT
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
#15
The Sahasranama such as the Vishnu Sahasra Nama, are not found in early Samhita manuscripts, rather found in medieval and later versions of various Samhitas. One of the significant works on Sahasranama is from the sub-school of Ramanuja and the Vishnu Sahasra-namam Bhasya(commentary) by 12th-century Parasara Bhattar.
Why Sri Sankara has been left out. Inconvenient to mention here?
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
#16
Instead of giving meaningful explanation for glorifying a human say Rama by God and Goddess, some of the replies travel to Veda period which in no way provides reasonable explanation.
Rama was an Avatar of Narayana, the God. So Shiv and Parvati are discussing about God. If there is any doubt about Narayana being God, please go and ask the Sankaracharyas who chant Narayana's name frequently. Kanchi Sankaracharya is available close by if you are a chennai resident. Please visit his Ashram in Kanchipuram and ask him personally.
 

CHANDRU1849

Well-known member
#17
Rama was an Avatar of Narayana, the God. So Shiv and Parvati are discussing about God. If there is any doubt about Narayana being God, please go and ask the Sankaracharyas who chant Narayana's name frequently. Kanchi Sankaracharya is available close by if you are a chennai resident. Please visit his Ashram in Kanchipuram and ask him personally.
Narayana is the name of God or avatar.

When Shiv and Parvati are Gods, why are they discussing about the avatar of another God. It is not known whether Saivites, first of all, accept Vishnu as God, let alone put him above Shiv.

Sankara Mutt Heads are neither Saivites nor Vaishnavites. Though they sport Holy Ash, probably for survival, they will vote in favor of Vishnu.

Instead of my approaching Kanchi Mutt, I humbly suggest you to meet any one of the Saiva Ateenams in Tamil Nadu and seek their valued opinion.
 

CHANDRU1849

Well-known member
#18
Please read the OP.

In VSN, Vishnu is being talked about. 'Shiva'is explaining that the Crux of VSN is 'rAma', 'rAma', 'rAma'. That is because Vishnu is 'ramA' (the one that is enjoyed), rAma (the physical enjoyer), manorame (the enjoying mind).

So the crux of VSN is Vishnu is everything. That's all. Vishnu is the playground, player and the observer. That's the essence of VSN.

When we say 'rAma' 'rAma' 'rAma' (3 times) we remember Vishnu is the rAma (Enjoyer), ramA (enoyed), manorama (mind enjoyer).

It is upto us to see that 'rAma' as 'dasaratha rAma' or not. Dasaratha named his sons 'rAma' (the enjoyer/ruler), 'lakSmana' (the emblem/insignia/mark), 'bharata' (bearer/sustainer), 'shatrugna' (slayer of enemies). rAma as the first born, was born to rule. lakSmana as the second born was the 'mark' of rAma, shadowing him wherever he is. bharata as the third born was the bearer or sustainer of kingdom, defends/maintains the Kingdom against onslaughts. Shatrugna as the last born was the ferocious slayer of enemies, waging wars.

-TBT
Why should Shiva discuss about Rama in the first place? Rama and Krishna are not reincarnations of Shiva.

If VSN finds a place in Mahabharata, which pertains to Krishna Avatar, how does Rama find a place in another avatar and what is the purpose here?
 
#19
Why should Shiva discuss about Rama in the first place? Rama and Krishna are not reincarnations of Shiva.

If VSN finds a place in Mahabharata, which pertains to Krishna Avatar, how does Rama find a place in another avatar and what is the purpose here?
The core slokas are followed by phala sthuthi which describes the fruits of reciting the sloka and uttara bhaga which have the conversations between Rishis and/or divinities about the Sloka. The divinities mentioned in these slokas have nothing to do with shaivism or shaktism or vaishnavism.

The slokas such as VSN contain snippets of vedic literature preserved inside elobarate recitals and conversations.

In VSN also, it is the same. After phala-sthuthi, Vyasa explains vAsu deva is Vishnu, Shiva says rAma rAma rAma is vishnu, Brahma says Vishnu is the sAsvata purusha, sanjaya says vishnu is with Arjuna etc..

The rAma mentioned here is not the dasaratha rAma in my view. It is 'rAma' the enjoyer, after whom Dasaratha named his son as 'rAma'.

-TBT
 

prasad1

Well-known member
#20
Why should Shiva discuss about Rama in the first place? Rama and Krishna are not reincarnations of Shiva.

If VSN finds a place in Mahabharata, which pertains to Krishna Avatar, how does Rama find a place in another avatar and what is the purpose here?


Your point is important.

If Shiva was a pre-Vedic God, why would he praise Rama who is not even a Vedic God?
 
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