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  1. #1
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    The story of Ganesha and kArthikeya


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    The story of Ganesha and Karthikeya fighting for 'jnAna' fruit is a familiar one. The basic story is like this.

    Shiva and Shakti want to give a 'fruit' of jnAna/wisdom to their sons. But the challenge is it cannot be apportioned or divided between them. It has to be given completely and hence to only one of them. So they hold a challenge. Whoever comes around the Universe first, they would get the jnAna fruit completely.

    Karthikeya mounts his peacock and goes around the Universe. Ganesha simply goes around his parents and claims that parents are his Universe. Ganesha gets the jnAna fruit.

    This story is interpreted in various ways with different philosophical masks and meanings. I see this story differently. I think it is interpreted as a 'story' from scientific explanation of a physical event that happens everyday.

    Shiva is energy. Shakti is Momentum.


    The 'fruit' that they are giving is 'Entropy' (information, knowledge, jnAna). Who will get jnAna the entropy, when energy is added..?
    Ganesha is potential energy which manifests as 'phase-change energy'. Karthikeya is motional energy (Kinetic) which manifests as heat measured by temperature.

    When energy is added to a system, it can manifest as potential (phase change energy) or manifest as heat (raise in temperature).

    When it manifests as phase change energy, it breaks the bonds between molecules, changes the phase of matter and increases overall entropy (information content) of the system. This is what happens say when ice turns into water. Here energy is spent in increasing entropy as it manifests as potential (phase change) energy.

    When it manifests as higher motional energy of molecules increasing the temperature of the system, energy is spent in increasing the temperature of the system and not the information content or entropy.

    Hence Ganesha gets the jnAna and not kArthikeya.

    Simplistically, if one gets additional energy
    , then they can use it to break their existing bonds, get into a new phase and thus increase their knowledge. That is like Ganesha.

    They can also use it to simply get excited, jump up and down, raise their heat with little increase in their knowledge. That is like Karthikeya.

    Who will get jnAna..? Obviously who are like Ganesha

    -TBT

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigthinkg View Post
    The story of Ganesha and Karthikeya fighting for 'jnAna' fruit is a familiar one. The basic story is like this.

    Shiva and Shakti want to give a 'fruit' of jnAna/wisdom to their sons. But the challenge is it cannot be apportioned or divided between them. It has to be given completely and hence to only one of them. So they hold a challenge. Whoever comes around the Universe first, they would get the jnAna fruit completely.

    Karthikeya mounts his peacock and goes around the Universe. Ganesha simply goes around his parents and claims that parents are his Universe. Ganesha gets the jnAna fruit.

    This story is interpreted in various ways with different philosophical masks and meanings. I see this story differently. I think it is interpreted as a 'story' from scientific explanation of a physical event that happens everyday.

    Shiva is energy. Shakti is Momentum.


    The 'fruit' that they are giving is 'Entropy' (information, knowledge, jnAna). Who will get jnAna the entropy, when energy is added..?
    Ganesha is potential energy which manifests as 'phase-change energy'. Karthikeya is motional energy (Kinetic) which manifests as heat measured by temperature.

    When energy is added to a system, it can manifest as potential (phase change energy) or manifest as heat (raise in temperature).

    When it manifests as phase change energy, it breaks the bonds between molecules, changes the phase of matter and increases overall entropy (information content) of the system. This is what happens say when ice turns into water. Here energy is spent in increasing entropy as it manifests as potential (phase change) energy.

    When it manifests as higher motional energy of molecules increasing the temperature of the system, energy is spent in increasing the temperature of the system and not the information content or entropy.

    Hence Ganesha gets the jnAna and not kArthikeya.

    Simplistically, if one gets additional energy
    , then they can use it to break their existing bonds, get into a new phase and thus increase their knowledge. That is like Ganesha.

    They can also use it to simply get excited, jump up and down, raise their heat with little increase in their knowledge. That is like Karthikeya.

    Who will get jnAna..? Obviously who are like Ganesha

    -TBT

    Ok...lets see how this theory goes..

    Ganesha is potential energy as per your theory and Karthikeya is motional(kinetic) energy.

    Then Shiva is Energy and Shakti is Momentum according to what is commonly known.

    Now Ganesha was " created" by Shakti and Kartikeya "created" by Shiva..

    So how is it here that there is a "contralateral" function and not an "ipsilateral" function?

    Why does Shakti( Momentum) " create" Ganesha (potential energy)? Shouldnt Momentum manifest as Kinetic energy?

    Now..Shiva is Energy as you have stated..Shiva created Kartikeya(kinetic energy)....why does Energy
    manifest as Motion/ kinesis here?

    Shouldnt it be Energy as in latent form manifest potential energy and not kinetic energy.

    Your theory would only hold good if the Shakti principle created Kartikeya and the Shiva principle created Ganesha...but thats not how the story goes.

    So which fruit are you talking about here?
    I do hope we are talking about the same fruit here and not land up like the Senthil Goundamani Banana joke!

    So is it வாழைப்பழம் or a jnanaphalam?
    Last edited by renuka; 23-02-2018 at 07:13 PM.
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  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by renuka View Post
    Ok...lets see how this theory goes..

    Ganesha is potential energy as per your theory and Karthikeya is motional(kinetic) energy.

    Then Shiva is Energy and Shakti is Momentum according to what is commonly known.

    Now Ganesha was " created" by Shakti and Kartikeya "created" by Shiva..

    So how is it here that there is a "contralateral" function and not an "ipsilateral" function?

    Why does Shakti( Momentum) " create" Ganesha (potential energy)? Shouldnt Momentum create Kinetic energy?

    Now..Shiva is Energy as you have stated..Shiva created Kartikeya(kinetic energy)....why does Energy
    manifest as Motion/ kinesis here?

    Shouldnt it be Energy as in latent form manifest potential energy and not kinetic energy.

    You theory would only hold good if the Shakti principle created Kartikeya and the Shiva principle created Ganesha...but thats not how the story goes.

    So which fruit are you talking about here?
    I do hope we are talking about the same fruit here and not land up like the Senthil Goundamani Banana joke!
    Your 'idea' of momentum is bit off.

    Whatever 'energy' is, it is 'charactertized' by momentum. Energy is Gross/sthula. Momentum is subtle/Suskhma. There is no energy without momentum. There is no momentum without energy. That is Ardha-nareeswara.

    When we add energy either of two things happen.

    1. It increases entropy/information/jnAna.
    2. It increases heat/temperature.

    Energy that increases entropy is Ganapati. In case of phase-change energy (when ice becomes water) it is potential energy.
    Energy that increases temperature is kArthikeya. Temperature is nothing but average kinetic energy.

    Shakti created a boy. Shiva gave the gajamukha to that boy making him gana-pati.

    Shiva created a fire. But the six women integrated these fires and created kArthikeya.

    So there lies stories of how entropy increasing energy and heat increasing energy are created.

    -TBT
    Last edited by thebigthinkg; 23-02-2018 at 07:37 PM.
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  6. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigthinkg View Post
    Your 'idea' of momentum is bit off.

    Whatever 'energy' is, it is 'charactertized' by momentum. Energy is Gross/sthula. Momentum is subtle/Suskhma. There is no energy without momentum. There is no momentum without energy. That is Ardha-nareeswara.

    When we add energy either of two things happen.

    1. It increases entropy/information/jnAna.
    2. It increases heat/temperature.

    Energy that increases entropy is Ganapati. In case of phase-change energy (when ice becomes water) it is potential energy.
    Energy that increases temperature is kArthikeya. Temperature is nothing but average kinetic energy.

    -TBT
    As usual...I expected such an answer.
    You try to cover up some loopholes by some new explanation that fails to support anything.
    Momentum is not subtle ..cos..its in action.
    Subtle is Potential Energy..yet to be manifested.


    So no jnana phalam here..only வாழைப்பழம்!LOL
    Last edited by renuka; 23-02-2018 at 07:35 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by renuka View Post
    As usual...I expected such an answer.
    You try to cover up some loopholes by some new explanation that fails to support anything.
    Momentum is not subtle ..cos..its in action.
    Subtle is Potential Energy..yet to be manifested.


    So no jnana phalam here..only வாழைப்பழம்!LOL

    I am talking about 'momentum' of energy. it is a subtle property of energy. If something has 'momentum', then it has energy. If something has energy, then it has momentum.

    Energy is gross because we can perceive it. Momentum is subtle because we can only perceive energy and not the momentum.

    I think you are confusing it with whatever you understand as 'momentum'.

    Also as I said Ganapati needs Shiva and Karthikeya needs six krttikas and they convey the story of entropy causing energy and heat causing energy.

    -TBT
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  10. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigthinkg View Post
    I am talking about 'momentum' of energy. it is a subtle property of energy. If something has 'momentum', then it has energy. If something has energy, then it has momentum.

    Energy is gross because we can perceive it. Momentum is subtle because we can only perceive energy and not the momentum.

    I think you are confusing it with whatever you understand as 'momentum'.

    Also as I said Ganapati needs Shiva and Karthikeya needs six krttikas and they convey the story of entropy causing energy and heat causing energy.

    -TBT
    Krittikas is constellation of Pleiades...its just a cluster of stars..so how is it that Kartikeya needs them?
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    Dear Mr TBT :

    I do not know Science (except some basic exposure) and do not know much of Puranas or any of our sacred texts (though I have some basic exposure). But I am good at sensing human behavior and seeing absurdity even when presented well.

    What I read in your threads borders on absurdity.

    How do you 'see' energy vs momentum? Just because something is moving does not mean you can 'see' energy and not see 'momentum' (and you call it subtle). Also taking some mythological stories and connecting that with wrong ideas of science terms is absurd. What is it that you are trying to prove? Is it that our mythological stories actually describe science or is it that science proves the stories? Neither makes sense, there is no connection.

    You can use leptons, strangons and what have you and I can assure no one here has any clue to support or speak against you. Those that really know are not here and will not participate in absurd discussions.

    So what prompts you to write about such absurd comparisons and force-fit some story to some science terms?

    I am very sorry if I have offended you but my 'attack' is not on you but what you have written here fpr a while. I know you are well educated and write well, I also sense a sincerity in your presentation. But absurd is absurd. I know no one wants to call that out

    I know you will disagree with my analysis. Dont feel compelled to reply. You are welcome to attack my post.

    Wanted to be brutally honest in terms what I think of such posts..

    Regards
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    Also entropy I thought refers to Chaos! How did that become Jnana or whatever you call it,
    Why should chaos be a fruit to be desired .. No need to reply . Just reacting to absurdity
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    Quote Originally Posted by renuka View Post
    Krittikas is constellation of Pleiades...its just a cluster of stars..so how is it that Kartikeya needs them?
    https://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=38023
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    Quote Originally Posted by a-TB View Post
    Dear Mr TBT :

    I do not know Science (except some basic exposure) and do not know much of Puranas or any of our sacred texts (though I have some basic exposure). But I am good at sensing human behavior and seeing absurdity even when presented well.

    What I read in your threads borders on absurdity.

    How do you 'see' energy vs momentum? Just because something is moving does not mean you can 'see' energy and not see 'momentum' (and you call it subtle). Also taking some mythological stories and connecting that with wrong ideas of science terms is absurd. What is it that you are trying to prove? Is it that our mythological stories actually describe science or is it that science proves the stories? Neither makes sense, there is no connection.

    You can use leptons, strangons and what have you and I can assure no one here has any clue to support or speak against you. Those that really know are not here and will not participate in absurd discussions.

    So what prompts you to write about such absurd comparisons and force-fit some story to some science terms?

    I am very sorry if I have offended you but my 'attack' is not on you but what you have written here fpr a while. I know you are well educated and write well, I also sense a sincerity in your presentation. But absurd is absurd. I know no one wants to call that out

    I know you will disagree with my analysis. Dont feel compelled to reply. You are welcome to attack my post.

    Wanted to be brutally honest in terms what I think of such posts..

    Regards
    Sir

    Since you yourself said you lack knowledge of science, I can understand your 'ideas' on Energy vs Momentum. I have nothing to get offended in it.

    Assume a world before mass manifested, before Higgs field acquired expectation value, an Universe which has energy and force-fields, but no 'mass'. What would momentum look like..? In classical physics momentum is mass * velocity. In that Universe mass is zero. Will the energy in that Universe have 'zero' momentum...?

    No.

    Energy even in that 'massless' Universe has momentum. Because Energy (Shiva) and Momentum (Shakti) cannot be separated. They are ardha-nareeswara. Whatever was energy in that Universe, it was characterized by movement at 'speed of light'. It had momentum. It is called E= pc.

    Without momentum (shakti) there is no energy (shiva) and without shiva (energy) there is no momentum (shakti).

    Energy, in that Universe was in different 'force-fields'. It was a probabilistic Universe and not a deterministic Universe. There are three fundamental properties of what was in 'motion', which we call energy. They are 'Energy', and Momentum (which is split into Linear and Angular).

    So why do we call Energy the gross (sthula) and Momentum the subtle (sukshma).

    It is because whatever we call as energy takes different 'forms' and manifests as the external world we see. You call it heat, light, sound etc etc and this becomes 'observable'. Momentum always remains subtle.

    -TBT
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