I am confused about post 1.
If Brahman is not active, and if there is only one Brahman who then created this world?
What if the world is also a Brahman, i.e. an undivided indivisible part of Brahmin? Then there is no creation.
Faith is for tiding over difficulties or troubled phases. No other purpose served.
Having an ever questioning & contemplating nature is the only practical way of living.
Dear Mr Prasad:
Regarding post 5 - That definition is so long for Brahman that it is hard to know how anyone can believe in that (though this is not to say I disrespect our sacred books)
Brahman is said somewhere as a 'cause' of two kinds. Well, cause has to be another word for creation. Abrham sounds lot like Brahman LOL
In the end it all belief or faith - hard to figure out what this world is all about
Thanks for sharing your views and the link
Dear Shri a-TB,
Knowledge of brahman is said to be the highest knowledge. So it is apt that it is so difficult to grasp that knowledge. Brahman can be nirguna or saguna. The former is a timeless existence and its existence is just experiencing bliss and beyond thoughts and actions. The latter exists in the realm of thoughts and actions and is responsible for creation by willing it.
Dear Mr Sravana,
This is way too confusing .. now we have two Brahmans ?? that does not sound right even with what little I know ..
But you say there is a creator then ..Thanks .. will revisit the thread in a few days
Dear Mr Prasad:
Regarding post 5 - That definition is so long for Brahman that it is hard to know how anyone can believe in that (though this is not to say I disrespect our sacred books)
Brahman is said somewhere as a 'cause' of two kinds. Well, cause has to be another word for creation. Abrham sounds lot like Brahman LOL
In the end it all belief or faith - hard to figure out what this world is all about
Thanks for sharing your views and the link
Brahman (in my understanding) is expansion. It is expansion of spacetime. (In what is called quintessence model) Expansion of spacetime happens when radiation energy becomes matter more and more and specifically when matter becomes more than radiation. In other words expansion of spacetime happens and accelerates with more and more of evolution of matter. So Brahman can be seen as 'evolution'.
(again this is my understanding) Long long ago, there could have been only Varna-Asrama-Dharmic society led by brahmanas (Knowledge providers), served Kshatriyas (service providers), provided by Vaishyas (material/goods providers) with some shudras (cheap or unskilled labor). This was a society led by knowledge providers (scientists and technologists as in the modern world). Probably this society had its own share of ills. Probably brahmanas being on top of chain became the villains for some/many.
From this society, people led by individual messiahs, whoever believed in a messiah, in someone who could deliver them off their difficulties with belief and faith rather than knowledge provided by brahmanas, separated out led by A-brahm. Abrahm is the first messiah of sorts. It is possible that this was coupled with migrations from East to west.
From there A-brahmic societies which believed in messiahs and their families, evolved further societies of messiahs of christianity and islam.
In the land of Bharata too, messiahs appeared in Jainism and Buddhism, which the varna-asrama-dharmic society fought a long struggle and the way it finally won over was to digest them inside.
Here I am not defending caste system (which is JAti). The real purpose and intent of varna-asrama dharmic society is lost when the 'dvija' system detoriates and jAti and kula became the main markers.
Except for the brahman/science part of it, other historical aspects are psuedo-theories of mine, just some loud thinking, with no substantiation.
-TBT
Brahman (in my understanding) is expansion. It is expansion of spacetime. (In what is called quintessence model) Expansion of spacetime happens when radiation energy becomes matter more and more and specifically when matter becomes more than radiation. In other words expansion of spacetime happens and accelerates with more and more of evolution of matter. So Brahman can be seen as 'evolution'.
(again this is my understanding) Long long ago, there could have been only Varna-Asrama-Dharmic society led by brahmanas (Knowledge providers), served Kshatriyas (service providers), provided by Vaishyas (material/goods providers) with some shudras (cheap or unskilled labor). This was a society led by knowledge providers (scientists and technologists as in the modern world). Probably this society had its own share of ills. Probably brahmanas being on top of chain became the villains for some/many.
From this society, people led by individual messiahs, whoever believed in a messiah, in someone who could deliver them off their difficulties with belief and faith rather than knowledge provided by brahmanas, separated out led by A-brahm. Abrahm is the first messiah of sorts. It is possible that this was coupled with migrations from East to west.
From there A-brahmic societies which believed in messiahs and their families, evolved further societies of messiahs of christianity and islam.
In the land of Bharata too, messiahs appeared in Jainism and Buddhism, which the varna-asrama-dharmic society fought a long struggle and the way it finally won over was to digest them inside.
Here I am not defending caste system (which is JAti). The real purpose and intent of varna-asrama dharmic society is lost when the 'dvija' system detoriates and jAti and kula became the main markers.
Except for the brahman/science part of it, other historical aspects are psuedo-theories of mine, just some loud thinking, with no substantiation.
-TBT
Have you gotten any answers LOL
Dear Mr Zebra16,
This world seems to be assembled because it can disintegrate. Even atoms are smashed to some pieces. Also scientists create new items out of raw materials. So world is intelligently put together in my simplistic mind. Mars and galaxies have gravity, not an easy job for all these laws of nature to work together. How can there be not a creator since entire universe is intelligently assembled?
And it has to be an active creator with lot of power.. Where does all the power come from
Thanks
Then what about Rama,Krishna,Ramanuja,Adi Shankara?
Are they too A-Brahm Messiahs?
My understanding is this..
Rama and Krishna were not messiahs. At the best they were kings following varnasrama dharma. Neither they denounced/renounced the vedic texts nor they left varnasrama dharmic society led by brahmans (knowledge providers).
Sankara abdicated Asrama dharma inspired by Buddhism (probably). But even he is supposed to have lived the life of a grhastha later.. He proposed a school of thought based on his understanding of vedas and upanishads and established institutions to popularize his school of thought.
Actually he is an example of how brahmanas, who were supposed to be knowledge providers, seek new knowledge and learning from vedic texts in their bid to keep the society evolving. But in a bid to make sense out of vedic texts in a rational way, he put them firmly in philosophical and spiritual domain (from which we could not return at all till now), as that is what he could do best at his time.
Ramanjua abdicated the jaateeya version of varna dharma, inspired by the philosophical basis of vedic texts propounded by Sankara.
These were not renouncing the vedas or a varnasrama dharmic society in which knowledge providers (brahmanas), material providers (vaishyas) and service providers (kshatriyas) are in a balance (rather than cheap labor (shudras) filled modern society) evolving the society together. Rather they were trying to make sense of vedic texts in their own ways.
They did not instill themselves as 'messiahs' giving new knowledge, new starting points, new ending points, new way of life..
-TBT
In your opinion how would explain the term Avatar of Lord Vishnu?
Rama and Krishna are worshiped as Avatars of Lord Vishnu.
The geeta does say that not to be attached to flowerly words of Vedas that promise higher heavens and the Gorvardhana episode did reflect Krishna's stance on ritual worship of Indra.
BTW how did the Brahmana Varna acquire the knowledge?
Surely now you might need to touch upon the origin of the Vedas.
Would like your input here.
To be accuarte..no one Varna really leads society solo...all 4 varnas are dependent and interdependent on each other.
That is how even the Supreme Person is viewed.
So who is the leader?
No one in specific but all...the Varna system is best viewed as a functioning unit rather than making any one specific Varna as leader.
This is how Varna system gets misunderstood as being hierarchical in nature.
A better term to describe Sudra Varna would be Man power unit.
There are three questions here:
1. Are Avatars and messiahs same..? What are Vishnu Avatars..?
2. How did Brahmana varna acquire knoweldge..?
3. Are you saying Varna system is hierarchical..?
Let me deal them one by one:
3. Am I saying Varna system is hierarchical..?
Varna dharma says there are four varnas (professions) in society for it to evolve sustainably. These are 1. Brahmanas/Knowledge providers (who gleam knowledge from various sources and put it to use for society, for eg. scientists, teachers etc). 2. Kshatriyas/Service providers (who use the knowledge provided by Brahmanas and offer services to society, for eg. soldiers, doctors etc). 3. Vaishyas /Material providers (who provide goods/materials to society, for eg. farmers, traders, businessmen) 4. Shudras/Cheap/Slave/unskilled labor.
Whoever follows the 'dvija' (the learning system) become one of the three varnas. Those who don't become zudras.
An evolving society is led by knowledge providers as knowledge evolution is what leads a society to progress. Using this knowledge, kshatriyas provide best of services and Vaizyas provide best of the goods. Brahamanas use these services and goods for developing more knowledge. This is a cycle.
Hence Brahmanas are said to lead the society. More correctly, it is the knowledge of the Brahmanas that has to lead the society.
A sanatana dharmic society that follows varna asrama dharma will have balance of all these people, lead by the knowledge providers. 'Lead by knowledge providers' do not mean hierarchy. It should be read as 'lead by the knowledge provided by knowledge providers'.
Varna system is hierarchical if we take hierarchy as one contributing to another in a cycle. It is not heirarchical, if we take hierarchy as one ruling over another.
Unfortunately most of us are zudras (cheap labor) today. That's why in kali yuga zudras are said to rule.
2. From where will Brahmanas gleam knowledge..?
They may get it from outside observations (Rsi) like scientists. They may get it from their own inside inspirations (Muni) like researchers. They may get it from interpreting translating Vedic revelations (Acharyas/teachers).
-TBT
All these would certainly apply to entire humanity of the world becos the same system too makes other countries function
But would we use the same terminology of Varna on another society for eg China?
But still one major question is still not answered..if Varna system is a functional unit then why certain groups were not allowed to learn some aspects of religion.
Other societies too have their intellectuals..rulers..coperate sector and man power unit BUT none of these 4 are restricted when it comes to acquiring deeper understanding of their religion.
Could you shed some light on this difference?
Unskilled labour that does not require learning?
This is a inaccurate view.
Every job requires learning..knowledge.
The problem is we confuse literacy rate with learning.
To do plumbing..one needs knowledge on how to unclogged a drainage system.
To be a barber one needs to know how to use the scissors.
To burn a body in the crematorium one needs to know to maintain the right temperature for the flames.
There isnt anything in this world that does not require learning.
Wisdom too has nothing got to do with even holding a pen.