The Fairest Flower

[Arthur]

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Dear Friends,

I would like to wish everyone a very sweet holiday season. I hope that we can all someday see beyond our differences and embrace the One.

Merry Christmas,
Arthur

 

[Raghy]

Sri Nara,

The truly righteous is Jesus Christ as per, John 14:16 translated by New living Translation.

Source - 1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

 

[Nara]

The truly righteous is Jesus Christ as per, John 14:16 translated by New living Translation.

Here is a quote from the truly righteous one, according to Matthew 10:34-36:

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. -Jesus
​

 

[Raghy]

Sri Nara,

Yes, this quote was used quite regularly in the previous forum I used to write. But there I was batting for Christianity. During one debate, this quote was thrown at me. But I have to admire my previous opponents; they had guts to debate. No one walked away or slithered away.

 

[renuka]

Dear Arthur,

I am basically a very simple individual who consider nothing as mine.
You tell me not to qoute so much but to share my own beautiful thoughts instead.
I dont even consider any beautiful thoughts as mine.
What is really ours?

Thank you for your Christmas and New Year greetings.
I dont celebrate Christmas and New Year thouugh.
Its not that I have anything againts Christianity but I rarely attach any importance to any festival.
I rather cherish divine thoughts on a daily basis make my life a daily celebration.

Renuka

 

[Dr.S.Ramanathan]

Fairest flower by Arthur

Mr. Arthur's article has attracted some extreme comments. The Hindu religion accepts a person as he is, with all his strengths and weaknesses and slowly elevates him from Tamo guna to Rajo and Satvika guna,when he is in a position of balanced views.Viswamitra
had all the ego as a Rajarishi and was slowly and in a calibrated manner elevated by Vyasa and Vamadeva and Gargi to a Brahmarishi,when he gave Gayatri mantra to this world. Viswamitra could be called either as an egotist or as the one to whom the greatest and most sacred of the mantras,Gayatri, was revealed,by his aspiration, perspiration and inspiration. The beauty is in the beholder's eyes!
Dr.S.Ramanathan.

 

[RVR]

The rat, the rat-trap and 'the will' have the same source - our mind.

Regards,

Sri Kunjuppu ji,

Sri Sapthajihva and me are having series discussions and surely we are not making fun of anybody.

Sri Sapthajihva,

Ok the mind is the originator of the thoughts.

Physically there is no part in our body called `mind'. Probably medical experts here -Dr.Renuka - can explain better.

We have a part called brain only.

Both good thoughts as well as bad thoughts originate from the so called mind.

How to control the bad thoughts and how to activate only good thoughts.

Is it possible through medical intervention. Or shall we have to go a spiritual path.

Let us discuss all the aspects in this thread.

All the best

 

[renuka]

Dear RVR,

The mind has been a subject of controversy since the beginning of history.
The location of thought,decision,and memory has always been searched for.

In 2nd century A.D. Greek-Roman physician Galen thought that the cerebro-spinal fluid(CSF) was the essence of the mind.

In the 17th century French philosopher Rene Descrates had raised the question of the relationship of the mind to the brain and nervous system by localizing the soul’s contact with the body in the pineal gland.

Whatever the theories were, it was obvious that the notion that the mind exists as a separate functional entity was beginning to invade the thoughts of man.

Medical science only recognizes the gross physical body,no mention about the subtle and causal body partly because the subtle and causal body are not visible to the naked eye.

The mind is always thought as part and parcel of the function of the brain.
It is never really demarcated as a separate functional entity from the brain


Now i am giving a non medical explanation of the mind.


Man’s thinking faculty is categorized into four entities based on function:

• Manas (mind)
• Buddhi (intellect)
• Chitta (memory/subconcius mind)
• Ahamkara (ego)

This constitutes Antahkarana the inner instrument of the soul.


Now lets us look at the mind.


1)What is the mind?

The mind is a bundle of thoughts.

2)Does the mind have its own intrinsic power to directly experience the sense objects?

The mind has no intrinsic power to directly experience sense objects except through the concerned sense organs.


How does the experience of the sense organs reach the mind?

In the human body the central nervous system consisting of the brain and the spinal cord and its nervous network relays the impulses from the sensory organs to the brain and from the brain to the muscle and glands via a neuro-chemical sequence of events.

Medically it is believed that the brain makes the appropriate decision according to the input/impulse received as I said earlier that medically the mind is viewed as one of the function of the brain.

Well that’s not really true as the very thought of performing a task eg moving a limb has been proven to trigger the recordable electrical activity in the brain at the supplementary motor cortex of the brain( the area in the brain which selects voluntary movement) which will lead to execution of a task if intended.

So it is quite obvious that the brain is not the endpoint and there is a “higher” entity above it.
Well that is what we call the mind.

Renuka

 

[RVR]

Dr Renuka

What the psychiatrists are doing then?

They go for narco analysis to find out deeper (can we call it sub-conscious) thoughts/feelings of the patients.

Even in criminal investigations, narco tests are done to find out the truth. In the normal circumstances a suspected criminal will not reveal the truth. But in narco analysis, he confesses to the crime if he has committed.

Are the psychiatrists attempt to correct only nerves system?

What they can achieve and what they cannot achieve?

Please enlighten me.

All the best

 

[sapthajihva]

Sri Kunjuppu ji,

Sri Sapthajihva and me are having series discussions and surely we are not making fun of anybody.

Dear Kunjuppu ji, I think he means that we are going to have a series of serious discussions to find out why the rat was attracted to the (rat) trap...

Ok the mind is the originator of the thoughts.

Physically there is no part in our body called `mind'. Probably medical experts here -Dr.Renuka - can explain better.

We have a part called brain only.

Both good thoughts as well as bad thoughts originate from the so called mind.

I cannot explain as well as Dr Renuka, however, here goes...

In programming jargon, it is termed relationship tables when two tables interact for a purpose to create a view which has a use, say a report. In short it is the overlapping (or union/intersection, as per set theory) of certain characteristics.

Similarly, the Athma is the 'Naan' or 'I'; Brain is the storage area (memory)...

The messages sent by the brain and the Athma combine to form the Mind...

Buddhi (or intellect) is the discriminating knowledge - it is both intrinsic and extrinsic. It is a feature of the Athma.

Thus the Athma knows itself, and knows to understand others. The Brain stores and retrieves sensory signals from the body. The Mind and Buddhi are 'relationship tables'.

Sigmund Freud had described three states of the mind - Ego, Super Ego and Id - parallels can be drawn out of our classification and the Freudian theory.

Now the Athma always thinks about itself; also it is influenced by Gunas due to Karmas carried over a sea of Birth-Death cycle. Therefore, the inherent understanding of the Athma depends on the Karma it is affected by. That does not mean, that the Athma cannot overcome the hurdle of Karma.

So the Athma understands the signals sent from the brain, which comes through the filter called Svabhava Guna (due to Karma).

Following prescribed Karmas is the way to mitigate the effects... The Athma then realizes its inner knowledge and attains a state of equilibrium. This is the most conducive stage for enlightenment.

Regards,

 

[RVR]

Sri Sapthajihva,

We have to give due credit to Sri Kunjuppu ji as he brought the idli/vadai differences to this thread. Whatever incident occured in my village house involving rat, trap and masal vadai is also very important as we are analysing the attraction of masal vadai which landed the rat into the trap. :biggrin1:

Now my main interest is how to avoid evil thoughts and allow only good thoughts to the mind. I am interested in Ramana Maharishi's path. More may be available in the following weblink

Self-enquiry (Vicharasangraham) of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi on the website dedicated to Arunachala and Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

If I have to follow Ramana's path fully, both good as well bad thoughts will evapore from the mind. You have alread declared `heart is at home and head is at Himalayas'. In my case, I have to fulfil certain obligations to my wife and children. If all the thoughts go out of my mind, I can move to Himalayas and probably all of you will get relieved from me. But I want only good thoughts to prevail for the time being. Is there any possibility?

All the best

 

[renuka]

Dear RVR Ji,

I find it a bit difficult to give a purely medical answer without overlapping into religous philosophy.
I am not much an expert in pyschiatry but all I can say that Pyschiatrist are treating the ailments of the mind via the Brain and Central Nervous System.
The Brain and the Central Nervous System are needed for the mind to function.
I have to mention that the Brain and CNS are gross and the Mind is subtle.
Medical science does not believe in the Subtle and Causal body.
Phyciatrist are also limited to a certain extent as they can never elicit everything from the subconscious mind.
Even under hypnotism the intrauterine memory or even previous lifes memory can never be elicited.
Babies who have heard music while in utero do a certain extent recognize the music played to them again when thay are born.
Scriptures have proved that a baby does have intrauterine memory.
Remember the whole Abhimanyu episode ?
I had brought up about the mind in a previous thread titled memory under general discussions.

I am sorry if I have deviated from a medical point of view to a non medical point of view.
The Brain does not store anything.
Even memory is not stored in the brain.
Memory is stored in the Chiita portion of the Anthakarana.
But the Chitta needs the brain to function at a physical level.
The Brain is like a hardware of a computer, the mind being the software.

 

[Raghy]

Mr. Arthur's article has attracted some extreme comments. The Hindu religion accepts a person as he is, with all his strengths and weaknesses and slowly elevates him from Tamo guna to Rajo and Satvika guna,when he is in a position of balanced views.Viswamitra
had all the ego as a Rajarishi and was slowly and in a calibrated manner elevated by Vyasa and Vamadeva and Gargi to a Brahmarishi,when he gave Gayatri mantra to this world. Viswamitra could be called either as an egotist or as the one to whom the greatest and most sacred of the mantras,Gayatri, was revealed,by his aspiration, perspiration and inspiration. The beauty is in the beholder's eyes!
Dr.S.Ramanathan.

Respected Dr.S.Ramanathan,

I sincerely request you to show such extreme comments in response to Arthur's article (?).

Since you are a very learned person, you may like to see Arthur as Viswamitra. But since I am not a learned person, My point of view of person is formed only from what that person has written; I do not have the ability to read between the lines.

I am also very curious to notice your first and only posting in this forum (besides your blog) is in support of Arthur. Is this thread that attractive? I am beginning to wonder.

I shall have more conversation with you when you show the extreme comments (preferably by me, if there is any). I sincerely hope you are not similar to Arthur in ignoring my messages when pointed concerns were raised.

Thank you.

 

[Raghy]

Sow. Sri. Renukakarthikayan said:-

"Even memory is not stored in the brain."

Sow. Renukakarthikayan,

I am a bit confused here. Brain seems to store memory.

"Cerebrum (also called the cerebral cortex or just the cortex) - The cerebrum consists of the cortex, large fiber tracts (corpus callosum) and some deeper structures (basal ganglia, amygdala, hippocampus). It integrates information from all of the sense organs, initiates motor functions, controls emotions and holds memory and thought processes (emotional expression and thinking are more prevalent in higher mammals)."

link:- HowStuffWorks "How Your Brain Works"

I checked it with my 'Human Anatomy & Physiology' text book (Elaine N. Marieb) which also confirms it. (I am too lazy to type it from the text book :biggrin1.

Why the stroke victims 'loose memory'? They require reeducation of activities of daily living. :noidea:

 

[renuka]

Dear Raghy,
Brain does not store memory.It has all the physical elements to process memory.
Stroke victims might have cellular damage to the neuronal cells either due to a bleed or an infarct.
So the memory stored in the Chitta of antahkarana cannot function till cellular regeneration has occured or compensated by other areas of the brain.
Physiotherapy and occupational therapy gives input through a series of depolarization which elicits action potentials which in turn transmit electrical impulses from peripheral motor structures to the brain.
This stimulates cellular regeneration and the Chitta portion of the Antahkarana will eventually be able to transmit the memory again.

 

[sapthajihva]

.......... You have alread declared `heart is at home and head is at Himalayas'. ...........

The fact of the case is.... my heart rules over my head... so far...

 

[Nara]

Dear friend Renuka, Greetings!

Medical science only recognizes the gross physical body,no mention about the subtle and causal body partly because the subtle and causal body are not visible to the naked eye.

Did you mean to say not observable, period, because we observe lots of things that are not visible to the naked eye?

This was a wonderful description, thank you Renuka.

.... as I said earlier that medically the mind is viewed as one of the function of the brain.
......

So it is quite obvious that the brain is not the endpoint and there is a “higher” entity above it.

You lost me here, why is this "quite obvious"?

Further, if there is a "higher" entity, how are these impulses transmitted to that higher entity and how are the wishes of that entity communicated back to the brain?

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

.....So the Athma understands the signals sent from the brain, which comes through the filter called Svabhava Guna (due to Karma).

Dear Sapthajihva, Greetings!

You have way way too many assertions in this explanation.

• Where actually is the athma in the body?
• Brain being a physical object, and the athma being a non-physical object, what is the mode of communication between the brain and the athma?
• How come this communication is not observable?

It seems you are trying to develop a rationale for a conclusion made a priori, in stead of allowing the facts and logic to take you to a conclusion. Sometimes we are unable to arrive at a firm conclusion due to limits in human knowledge. It is irrational to to fill this limit with conclusions derived from religious doctrine and dogma.

By the principle of Occum's razor, there is no need to assume there is a higher non-physical entity called athma that communicates and controls the body.

Cheers!

 

[sapthajihva]

Vanakkam Shri Nara,

Where actually is the athma in the body?

Here I refer to a beautiful concept from Vishishtadhvaitha philosophy - 'Shareerathma bhavam'; you would know about it. The Athma is located inside the heart, but it pervades the whole body.

Brain being a physical object, and the athma being a non-physical object, what is the mode of communication between the brain and the athma?

When the Athma pervades the whole body, where is the barrier?

How come this communication is not observable?

Maybe we have not yet invented a device to observe it...

It seems you are trying to develop a rationale for a conclusion made a priori, in stead of allowing the facts and logic to take you to a conclusion.

I am guilty to an extent... maybe too enthusiastic in my post above, but that does not take away the validity of the conclusion.

By the principle of Occum's razor, there is no need to assume there is a higher non-physical entity called athma that communicates and controls the body.

The principle you quoted above is not applicable here. Our subject matter deals with objects whose nature cannot be observed with the physical eye.

Regards,

 

[Nara]

.. concept from Vishishtadhvaitha philosophy - 'Shareerathma bhavam'; you would know about it. The Athma is located inside the heart, but it pervades the whole body.

I am sorry my friend, you have once again given a whole bunch of assertions. The functioning of the brain is very well understood. Mind, as Renuka points out from a medical POV, is just a function of the brain, it is just what it does. The chemical states of the brain creates some sensations that feels like pain, pleasure, etc. These are not assertions. After all, with the consumption of drugs, a purely physical process, the mood can be altered.

Of course the knowledge is not complete. There are gaps. These gaps are being filled all the time through painstaking research. Yet, religion makes people simply insert meta physical entities into these gaps.

You say there is athma and we are not observing it because of limitation on instrumentality. Further, you also state exactly what happens and why it happens viz. karma, guna, et al. without a shred of evidence but reigious dogma. If this is deemed logical, what prevents one from claiming that there is an invisible monkey hovering over our heads, that is the athma, and we are not seeing it because of limitations of instruments.

In the absence of data, the only reasonable thing we can say is we don't know. Going beyond that is pure dogma.

Cheers!

p.s. The shareera/sahreeri concept you cite is a metephor used by Bhagavat Ramanuja in Sri Bhashyam to describe the inseparableness between the duality of chetana and Iswara, and the duality achetana and iswara.

Three types of relationships must exist between two entities for one to be a body and the other to be jeeva. They are:

1. commander/commanded,
2. supporter/supported, and
3. enjoyer/enjoyed

If these three types of relationships exist between two entities, the first is jeeva and the second is body. This may exist temporarily between two entities, like life in a given birth, or boss and subdinate in a job, or husband and wife of a traditina Inidan marriage. This called pradhak siddi, a separable union between two, one as soul and the other as body.

The same relationship, exists permanently in an inseparable way, called apradhak siddi, between jiva and bhagavan. Voila, we have visihtadvaitam. This is the basic principle by which the aparantly advaitic statements such as Tat Tvam Asi and Aham Brahmasi are interpreted with three realities, chetana, achetana, and Iswara, without violence to the clearly dvaitic statement of two birds living in a tree.

So, as you see, this sareera/sareeri relatioship is pure dogma distilled by Azhvars (உடல் மிசை உயிரென கரந்தெங்கும் பரந்துளன் (திருவய்மொழி 1.1.5 or 6) and Ramanuja from Veda. For this to be taken seriously one has to buy into the inerrant validity of the Vedas, which even you won't accept if you were born in a different culture. But of course you will say your karma gave you this birth and the true knowledge -- a circular argument if there ever was one!!!

 

[renuka]

Dear NaraJi,

I had mentioned that medical science views the the mind as a function of the brain.
But I myself view it as not fully correct.
The higher entity that is the mind communicates with the physical body through prana.
Please read the thread memory under general discussions, where I had written on role of Prana in the communication of the mind and body.
Its not have been scientifically proven but just a theory i thought about after reading input from Swami Vivekananda, Swami Yogananda and Sathya Sai Baba.

I have explained the role of pranic electrons in the communication of the mind and body.
The Atma in the body is situated in the spiritual heart and not the physical heart.
The Atma pervades the whole body.
The gross physical body and the subtle body work hand in hand.
The physical body needs the subtle body to function and vice versa.

 

[Nara]

...
The higher entity that is the mind communicates with the physical body through prana.

Dear Smt. Renuka, this is purely a religious belief, and nothing wrong with it, but it, IMHO, must be stated as such. You have done that and I appreciate it.

Sometimes these two views, religious and scientific, get conflated, either by design or inadvertently. My argument is only with those who do it on purpose. They have to provide irrefutable evidence, the kind science demands, before making claims to scientific validity.

Those who do it inadvertently, I request them to follow Stephan Jay Gould's NOMA theory, (Non-Overlapping MAjestiria), which says science and religion are two separate, mutually non-interfering, teaching authorities.

My own personal view is that religion has nothing valuable to teach, but I respect those who want to subscribe to NOMA. I have major disagreement with those who want to conflate science with religion.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Prof Nara ji,

I was also a Nasthigan at one time( almost 45 years back in the early seventies) I was very much interested in EVR, Abraham Kovoor and others.

Due to family circumstances, I was unable to continue to be Nasthigan and was forced back to the present path.

But in the present path also I always go for validity and proof. But getting validity for everything is difficult and not possible.

However I have not given up my rationalistic approach even today.

Going back to the actual incident which I narrated - rat, rat trap and a masal vada.

Rat was not attracted towards a coconut piece and escaped from the supreme sacrifice. But later when Masal Vada was placed in the trap, it could not resist and paid the ultimate price.

Why this happened.

Purely because of thoughts. May be good thoughts (Noble thoughts which I am subscribing at the bottom), Normal thoughts and Bad thoughts.

From where thoughts originate?

Mind is the general answer which we get.

Where is the mind?

Nobody is able to show it physicallly.

I searched various religious literature but I was not convinced about all like you.

I attended Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's transcedental meditation classes but somehow I was not convinced and gave it up

Almost about two decades back, I came across Paul Brunton's book on Ramana Maharishi

Since it was not involving any specific mantra, religion of God, it somehow appealed to me and I started investigating to Ramana Maharishi's philosophy.

It involved simple repeated self enquiry `who am I?' நான் யார்?

The originator of this thread Sri Arthur has also posted the same question in his first posting.

Ramana says the question drives away thoughts. I personally experienced it, definitely repeated questing of self drives away all the thoughts including good thoughts.

Driving away all the thoughts is a good idea but it came at a wrong time. Twenty years back all my kids were just doing primary schooling and I had lot of commitments to my family. So I gave up further self enquiry at that time and decided to take it up at a later stage (Probably at Vanaprasta time)

Ramana says there are two hearts in our body. The physical heart in our left hand side and the non visible spiritual heart on the right hand side.

It is up to you to believe it or not and I have no issues on that. But my self enquiry experience definitely drove away thoughts and I was able to experience bliss on the right side of my heart.

Probably if I had continued, I would have had the experience of identifying myself with the inner `self' but not with the physical body.

If you are interested please go through the following thread

Self-enquiry (Vicharasangraham) of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi on the website dedicated to Arunachala and Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

Again I am telling all that one has to experience it themselves individually and any amount of explanation is not sufficient.

I request others to share their experiences if they have taken similar path.

All the best

 

[renuka]

Dear Naraji,

Sometimes evidence comes from within and not from without.

This is how I have felt in this 39 years of my existence.

I have never ever considered science and religion as seperate entities.

Isn't science just a methodology of discovering the known or even the unknown?

Religion might not have anything valueble to teach as you put it.

Spirituality should not be confused with Religion.

Spirituality lets us be both the Sadhaka & the Bodhaka.

I really liked your Questions but unfortunately I don't have all the answers.

renuka

 

[Nara]

I was also a Nasthigan at one time( almost 45 years back in the early seventies) I was very much interested in EVR, Abraham Kovoor and others.

Hello sir, may be 45 years from now I will cease to be nasthika, but I doubt it, for I think it is a matter of looking for answers. The answers are there independent of family situation etc. While the exact truth may be elusive, we can very well figure out what is unlikely to be the truth, and what religion in general offers IMHO is mostly from that category.

Cheers!