Popular iyers in the four sub sects of the community

[Raji Ram]

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There is no God but Allah and Mohammad is his prophet.
vs
There is no God but Vishnu and Ramanuja is his prophet.

Please explain what is the intrinsic difference between these two statements and why one is compatible with Hinduism while the other is not.

It is simple! One section of people pray to 'Allah' and the other section prays 'Vishnu'!

Saint Thyagaraja asks Lord Rama in one of his songs, 'How can I determine who you are? You have the 'jeeva' letters of both

Shiva manthram (ma) and Narayana manthram (rA). This means that Thyagaraja considers both the forms of God as supreme!

 

[biswa]

Shiva manthram (ma) and Narayana manthram (rA). This means that Thyagaraja considers both the forms of God as supreme!

Does God have only two forms? Come to think of it, does God even have a form?

 

[renuka]

It is simple! One section of people pray to 'Allah' and the other section prays 'Vishnu'!

Saint Thyagaraja asks Lord Rama in one of his songs, 'How can I determine who you are? You have the 'jeeva' letters of both

Shiva manthram (ma) and Narayana manthram (rA). This means that Thyagaraja considers both the forms of God as supreme!

Dear RR ji,

Out here in Malaysia we have a Northern Indian temple that goes by the name Lakshmi Narayan temple.

The temple has all Murtis from Shiva,Hanuman, Vishnu,Durga etc.

The priest from the temple who recently conducted my grandmums Shraddha was reciting all mantras right from Maha Mrtunjaya Mantra to Sukhlam Baradharam Vishnu,Vasudeva Sutam Deivam and read out a portion of Ram Charit Manas and the Garuda Puran... and ended the Havan with everyone singing Om Jai Jagadisha Hare and he ended the whole event with this stanza.

Bolo Siyavar Ramachandra Ki Jai
Prabhu Veer Ramachandra Ki Jai
Pavan Suta Hanuman Ki Jai
Umapathi Mahadeva Ki Jai
Bole Re Bhai Sab Santhan Ki Jai.


He wore a Tilak on his head like a Vaishnavite and he wore a shawl on his shoulders which had Sanskrit writing of Om Namah Shivaya.

I am just wondering why we will never see a South priest from a Vishnu temple conducting prayers in this manner??

 

[Raji Ram]

Does God have only two forms? Come to think of it, does God even have a form?

Dear Biswa Sir,

That is a very high thinking.

Human mind is like a monkey and keeps on jumping from one thought to the other. The innumerous forms of God and Goddesses are CREATED by humans only to select what we like and concentrate on that form to pray, imho! ray2:

 

[Govinda]

Dear RR ji, Out here in Malaysia we have a Northern Indian temple that goes by the name Lakshmi Narayan temple. The temple has all Murtis from Shiva,Hanuman, Vishnu,Durga etc. The priest from the temple who recently conducted my grandmums Shraddha was reciting all mantras right from Maha Mrtunjaya Mantra to Sukhlam Baradharam Vishnu,Vasudeva Sutam Deivam and read out a portion of Ram Charit Manas and the Garuda Puran... and ended the Havan with everyone singing Om Jai Jagadisha Hare and he ended the whole event with this stanza. Bolo Siyavar Ramachandra Ki Jai Prabhu Veer Ramachandra Ki Jai Pavan Suta Hanuman Ji Kai Umapathi Mahadeva Ki Jai Bole Re Bhai Sab Santhan Ki Jai. He wore a Tilak on his head like a Vaishnavite and he wore a shawl on his shoulders which had Sanskrit writing of Om Namah Shivaya. I am just wondering why we will never see a South priest from a Vishnu temple conducting prayers in this manner??

AntaryAmi of Shiva is Narayana. The difference between Brahman and the other gods is the former could only have the exclusive power of creation (envelope to jivas) and total dissolution. Upanishads credit the Brhman as the Material cause, Instrumental cause and the efficient cause. All other divinities depend on Him, for powers! There cannot be two different antaryAmis to two different person. Only Brahman is the Supersoul of All, and He is NArayanA (nara - ayana, abode/dweller of nara/jiva). Shiva only means auspicious, and has no personal names like Narayana or Vishnu. Vaishnavas also chant vedas with the intention that Inner Self of all devatAs is that Purusha.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,

Many vaishnavites pray ONLY Lord Narayana but all the saivites pray Lord Shiva and Lord Narayana. I have one very

close friend ( Iyengar ) who has taken 'samAshrayanam' from her Guru and so she will not drink even water offered by me!

She will eat only fruits, if offered by other vishanavite friends. Once upon a time, when I moved to this colony in 1984, she

used to prepare 'naivEdhyam' for Lord Ganesha, in our colony temple. But now she doesn't even enter that temple!

So, you can not expect any Lakshmi Narayana devotee to wear 'Namah Shivaya' shawl, in South India!

 

[Govinda]

Dear Biswa Sir,

That is a very high thinking.

Human mind is like a monkey and keeps on jumping from one thought to the other. The innumerous forms of God and Goddesses are CREATED by humans only to select what we like and concentrate on that form to pray, imho! ray2:

This is the biggest disgrace to those Vedic seers and their hymns on those divinitites.

<edited and removed. Kindly stop labelling people>



E.G: It is the same Shiva who cursed Ravanad and helped Rama to fight Ravana. Siva came to the rescue of BhAna-asura (who wanted to kill Krishna), but when KRishna decided to challenge BAnAsura, Shiva was mystified by His Jvara. Narayana taught Banasura a lesson, but left him alive for being a devotee of Shiva.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,

Many vaishnavites pray ONLY Lord Narayana but all the saivites pray Lord Shiva and Lord Narayana. I have one very

close friend ( Iyengar ) who has taken 'samAshrayanam' from her Guru and so she will not drink even water offered by me!

She will eat only fruits, if offered by other vishanavite friends. Once upon a time, when I moved to this colony in 1984, she

used to prepare 'naivEdhyam' for Lord Ganesha, in our colony temple. But now she doesn't even enter that temple!

So, you can not expect any Lakshmi Narayana devotee to wear 'Namah Shivaya' shawl, in South India!

Dear RR ji,

Then what about times of blood transfusion?What will your friend do in case she ever needs blood transfusion?

We have no idea whose blood we are receiving in times of emergency!

 

[Raji Ram]

One very popular vishnavite 'swami' told once in his discourse that if a person enters a Shiva temple, the 'puNyam' he gained by visiting

numerous Vishnu temples will be destroyed! All the Iyer followers argued with him and now he is NOT mentioning such things.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear RR ji,

Then what about times of blood transfusion?What will your friend do in case she ever needs blood transfusion?

We have no idea whose blood we are receiving in times of emergency!

Dear Renu,

May be she has ear marked some vishnavite friends with the same blood group for donation, in case of emergency!

 

[renuka]

Shiva only means auspicious, and has no personal names like Narayana or Vishnu.

Dear Sir,

Vishnu is from the root word Vis..meaning "to enter".
That denotes the all pervasiveness of Lord Vishnu.

I am surprised you say Lord Shiva has no personal names..He is also known as Mahadeva, Umapathy, Kamadahana,Kalaantaka,Mrtunjaya,Girijapathi and many more.

 

[Govinda]

Dear Renu,

Many vaishnavites pray ONLY Lord Narayana but all the saivites pray Lord Shiva and Lord Narayana. I have one very

close friend ( Iyengar ) who has taken 'samAshrayanam' from her Guru and so she will not drink even water offered by me!

She will eat only fruits if offered by other vishanavite friends. Once upon a time, when I moved to this colony in 1984, she

used to prepare 'naivEdhyam' for Lord Ganesha, in our colony temple. But now she doesn't even enter that temple!

So, you can not expect any Lakshmi Narayana devotee to wear 'Namah Shivaya' shawl, in South India!

Vaishanvas consider Shiva as a great yogic divinity and a mAnasa-Putra, born out of the mind of Brahma. But, Shiva is not the antaryAmi of all creation, neither he nor Braham
can be supersoul of all jivAs/Creation, though they are highly realaized and powerful.

But, Shiva will grant excellent 'material' boons after a simple prayer/request, whereas Vishnu would grant such boons, but lead to unattachment. As main goal
of Vaishnavas is to attain that mOksha (not just the clarity of mind, but liberate and service afterwards), so they fear any worship or prayers to Graceful Shiva. So,
they just salute Shiva.

Plus, Shiva and Durga were the designated gods of those asuras, demons, forest dwellers who just want to achieve things/powers/positions , rather any realization.
Earlier Brahmans/sages insisted on the worship of Vishnu and only for realization, they were challenged by those materialistic kshatriyas/kings and later Brahmins
joined the fray.

There is no conflict in worshipping Shiva, but with the intent of realization, values, virtues. But, people have come up with scarier forms of worship to Shiva and Durga,
which you may have encountered in Kumbh mEla. Here, the real idea of sAttiva tenets are lost, as the philosophy and direction gets diluted!

 

[renuka]

This is the biggest disgrace to those Vedic seers and their hymns on those divinitites. You guys wanted to glorify Shiva to be Supreme, but when there is a challenge
to that thought, you call also those forms as figment of imagination (does this include Shiva's too?).

Adi Sankara couldn't have influenced, you all, you guys are independently short of serotonin!

E.G: It is the same Shiva who cursed Ravanad and helped Rama to fight Ravana. Siva came to the rescue of BhAna-asura (who wanted to kill Krishna), but when KRishna decided to challenge BAnAsura, Shiva was mystified by His Jvara. Narayana taught Banasura a lesson, but left him alive for being a devotee of Shiva.

Dear Sir,

I do not find anything wrong in the post of RR ji.

Humans created the forms of God based on revelations, dreams and also direct perception.
In other words its an artistic impression.

In fact Sathya Sai Baba remarked once that the "image" of God we have in our mind are mainly
Ravi Varma's artistic impression.

What RR ji said is true..God is Formless which means that He is NOT limited to only one form.

Formless is mostly misunderstood as being invisible...but in reality Formless means that God is not just One form and He is capable of manifesting Himself in multiple forms.

It is for the sake of the Bhakta that God dons many forms...for the human mind is fickle and can not concentrate without a sensory perception.

I have used the word sensory perception since not everyone in this world is gifted with sight or hearing.

For those of us who are normal..we need to perceive God in a mental visual impression either through a Murti or even facing a direction mentally visualizing an object of worship.

For those who are visually challenged they depend on a auditory mental impression.

In this world everything is based on perception as long we are using our senses.

Not many of us can have direct revelations and chant

vedahametam purusham mahantam​

adityavarnam tamasastu pare​

sarvani rupani vichitya dhiraha​

namani kritva abhivadan yadaste

​

"I know (through intuitive experience) this great Purusha (the Supreme Being), the wise one, who, having created the various forms and the nomenclatures (for those forms), deals with them by those names, and who is beyond darkness and is brilliant like the sun."

The Purusha Sukta

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Siva

Siva is the ultimate and supreme reality, omniscient, omnipresent and unbound. He is Pati, the primal being and the supreme deity. Siva alone is the efficient cause of all creation, evolution, preservation, concealment and dissolution. He brings forth the worlds and their beings through his dynamic power, Shakti.

Jivas

The jivas are the individual souls or beings. They are not the same as Siva. But they are made of the same essence. According to Saiva Siddhanta, Siva is the same as the souls but also other than the souls. The number of souls remains constant throughout. Their number can neither be increased nor decreased. They may undergo transformation but their number remains constant. Thus in Saiva Siddhanta there is a fine distinction between the souls and God. The difference is not in their essence but in their constitution. Their relationship with Siva is not a state of oneness but of sameness. Because Siva and jivas are different but also the same in essence, this school is considered as pluralistic or dualistic.

 

[renuka]

There is a story that goes...Once Narada muni was on his trips and he witnessed Lord Rama at the sea shore worshiping the Shiva Linga.

Surprised by this..Narada asked Sri Rama "Who are you worshiping?"

Sri Rama replied "I am worshiping Rameshwara"

Narada asked Sri Rama "Who is Rameshwara?"

Sri Rama replied Ramasya Ishavara Rameshwara meaning He who is the Lord(Ishvara) of Rama is Rameshwara and He is Umapathy"

Then Narada was even more confused and went to Kailash and asked Lord Shiva "are you aware that Sri Rama is conducting a Pooja for you as he said you are his lord"

Shiva replied " Rameshwara does not mean that He who is the Lord(Ishvara) of Rama but it means Rama Ishvara Yasya Sah which means He whose Lord(Ishvara) is Rama and that means Rama is my Lord.

Even more and more confused now,Narada went to see Brahma and related the two interpretations of Rama and Shiva about the term Rameshwara.

Brahma said "the actual meaning of Rameshwara is Rama Eva Ishwara, Ishwara Eva Rama which means Rama is verily Shiva and Shiva is verily Rama.




Moral of the story:

1)The Avatar of Lord Vishnu had no problems with Shiva and vice versa.

2)Narada who is the ultimate devotee of Lord Vishnu has no problems going to Kailash.


So why we humans alone have all the differences!LOL

 

[tks]

There is no God but Allah and Mohammad is his prophet.
vs
There is no God but Vishnu and Ramanuja is his prophet.

Please explain what is the intrinsic difference between these two statements and why one is compatible with Hinduism while the other is not.

From Vedic teaching point of view Isvara by any name or form is fine for those that want to pray.

The famous bhajan is testimonial that true Hindus not only tolerate other forms of Isvara but actually accept those fomrs fully

raghupati rāghav rājārām,patit pāvan sītārāmsītārām, sītārām,bhaj pyāre tū sītārāmīśvar allāh tero nām,sab ko sanmati de bhagavān


The problem is again ignorance. We have a few too many Vishnu தீவிரவாதிகள், Jesus Freaks, Islamic terrorists ..in the world

<kindly refrain from posting veiled comments against other members - directly or indirectly: Praveen>

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Though alike in their grandeur and multiplicity, Vishnu and Śiva are not otherwise similar.

In their completely developed forms they represent two ways of looking at the world. The main ideas of the Vaishnavas are human and emotional. The deity saves and loves: he asks for a worship of love. He appears in human incarnations and is known as well or better by these incarnations than in his original form.

But in Śivaism the main current of thought is scientific and philosophic rather than emotional. This statement may seem strange if one thinks of the wild rites and legends connected with Śiva and his spouse. Nevertheless the fundamental conception of Śivaism, the cosmic force which changes and in changing both destroys and reproduces, is strictly scientific and contrasts with the human, pathetic, loving sentiments of Vishnuism. And scandalous as the worship of the generative principle may become, the potency of this impulse in the world scheme cannot be denied.

Agreeably to his character of a force rather than an emotion Śiva does not become incarnate as a popular hero and saviour like Râma or Krishna, but he assumes various supernatural forms for special purposes. Both worships, despite their differences, show characteristics which are common to most phases of Indian religion. Both seek for deliverance from transmigration and are penetrated with a sense of the sorrow inherent in human and animal life: both develop or adopt philosophical doctrines which rise high above the level usually attained by popular beliefs, and both have erotic aspects in which they fall below the standard of morality usually professed by important sects whether in Asia or Europe.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

<kindly refrain from posting veiled comments against other members - directly or indirectly: Praveen>

 

[suraju06]

Dear biswa,

There is no God but Vishnu and Ramanuja is his prophet.

Where from did you get this? will you please enlighten particularly the second part of the sentence above?

Cheers.