Madisar/Panchakacham

[kunjuppu]

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Kunjuppu Sir
Your statement or question does not prove or disprove anything. What I mean is that by extending the logic further one can state that there is nothing wrong with eating beef or with nudism. And the argument will be totally correct. But that does not mean that vegetarianism or wearing clothes is wrong!

dasaanu,

not quite a right extension i believe.

it is quite a stretch of logic from madisar/panchakaccham to nudism/beef eating. not sure how you could relate these?

what i meant, and was not clear, is that, we still do not know when madisar or panchakaccham came into vogue. our images of our female deities all wear saris and blouses. not madisars.

also, the concept of underwear for madisars is recent, if i am not mistaken.

in this concept, we of today, even though, we may overtly garment ourselves with madisar or panchakaccham, from the point of purity of concept, we may have violated the norms.

to sum up, i am saying, that there is no such thing as pure pure. everything is relative, and at some point in this relativeness, we satisfy ourselves and console ourselves that we are pure enough.

everything is only relative.

 

[Dasaanu Dasan]

Madisar & Panchakachcham

Sir
Thanks. You say it is quite a stretch of logic from madisar to beef and nudism. You ask how do I relate these.
It is not myself who is relating them but it is the argument you used. Extending that argument the remarks about beef etc are logical. That is all.
What you explain now about your doubt regarding origin of madisar and panchakachcham was not clear in your first message even though I re-read it. By the way many of our deities wear these articles of clothing. There is no doubt that these costumes are more than a thousand or two old.
I understand reliably that use of under wear with madisar is very inconvenient. One can do it to prove a point that is all. For men with panchakachcham it is a little easier. That is because men's underwear has a slit nowadays.
I fully agree with you that everything is relative and personal choice. I never suggest madisar and panchakachcham are purer than pants. I only say they are equally practical with practice and can be graceul and safe.
I apologise if you take any offence in the reply. If so it is unintentional. My intention is only to have a friendly and interesting exchange of ideas. :wave:

dasaanu,

not quite a right extension i believe.

it is quite a stretch of logic from madisar/panchakaccham to nudism/beef eating. not sure how you could relate these?

what i meant, and was not clear, is that, we still do not know when madisar or panchakaccham came into vogue. our images of our female deities all wear saris and blouses. not madisars.

also, the concept of underwear for madisars is recent, if i am not mistaken.

in this concept, we of today, even though, we may overtly garment ourselves with madisar or panchakaccham, from the point of purity of concept, we may have violated the norms.

to sum up, i am saying, that there is no such thing as pure pure. everything is relative, and at some point in this relativeness, we satisfy ourselves and console ourselves that we are pure enough.

everything is only relative.

 

[kunjuppu]

Sir
I apologise if you take any offence in the reply. If so it is unintentional. My intention is only to have a friendly and interesting exchange of ideas. :wave:

dasaanu,

why do you think i take offence in your reply? can you please point that out? so that i can learn.

it is indeed a limitation of my english, that even when i meant to sound friendly and jovial, it may sound otherwise.

please let me know.

i wish to assure you, the spirit of my repartees with you are the same as yours ie My intention is only to have a friendly and interesting exchange of ideas. :wave:

 

[Dasaanu Dasan]

Friendly Exchange

Thank you sir. I appreciate your sentiments and share the same. I was only worried that my reply may be mistaken. Glad to know it is not so. I find nothing wrong with your English. Regards. :biggrin1:

dasaanu,

why do you think i take offence in your reply? can you please point that out? so that i can learn.

it is indeed a limitation of my english, that even when i meant to sound friendly and jovial, it may sound otherwise.

please let me know.

i wish to assure you, the spirit of my repartees with you are the same as yours ie My intention is only to have a friendly and interesting exchange of ideas. :wave:

 

[kunjuppu]

Thank you sir. I appreciate your sentiments and share the same. I was only worried that my reply may be mistaken. Glad to know it is not so. I find nothing wrong with your English. Regards. :biggrin1:

thanks dasaanu.

i think, perhaps, this is where liberal use of smilies might be appropriate? to show that the message is in good spirits?:bounce:

 

[pannvalan]

One must be very adept in wearing madisar or panchakacham, as the case may be.
For, I have seen some ladies wearing them shabbily and in a clumsy fashion.

Similarly, super fine dhotis (made of 100 counts/120 counts yarn) are very transparent and will present an ugly and embarrassing look.

In olden days, neatly stitched undergarments were not in use. Therefore, telling
madisar or pancha kachcham was to cover one's modesty or to boost energy etc. etc.
are all imagination over-stretched.

In the present world, madisar or panchakachcham is not suitable for commutation, driving two wheelers and also climbing up and climbing down steps/stairs, frequently.

Even for a long walk along a congested road, they are inconvenient.

It is alright, if they are worn on formal occasions. We have sacrificed or even thrown away more valuable treasures of our culture. Therefore, by not wearing madisar or panchakacham every day, we may not lose our identity or cultural symbols.

 

[kunjuppu]

durga, pann,

why not look upon the evolution of garment as a evolution of times.

garments are a reflection of the period, area, weather and the local cloth that would be available.

certainly, living in europe and north america, with its cold weather, we dress accordingly several layers of cloth, some of them thick enough to capture our body heat, and prevent cold from filtering in.

people in the nomadic areas, wear clothes handy for horse riding.

the veshti and the sari, do not straddle the groin. they are yet graceful and socialistic in the sense, regardless of the size of the person, they can look beautifully clad and attractive.

so, we must be proud of such modern clothes.

the europeans do not appear to have such a sense of loss at discarding their what they call 'period clothing'. certainly in the early part of 20th century, it was estimated that one needed 3 yards or something for a swimming costume. today it is more like 3 inches (!).

european women in the last century wore tons of clothing. yet there were more promiscuous than ever before the previuos centuries. i am not so sure that modesty in clothing necessarily translates into modesty in sexual mores.

when i grew up in madras, the girls on maturity, wore only
பாவாடை தாவணி. nowadays, whenever i come to chennai, i have to search all over even to find one lass clad in such garment.

they have all moved on to salwar kameez. even more surprising, is that our young boys, even on weddings, have discarded sometimes the suit/tie for reception to the north indian formal sherwani etc.

so, i for one, would not recommend anyone necessarily shed tears over the disappearance of panchakaccham or madisar.

infact, my favourite sari style, is the tamil village aachi style worn by manorama these days in movies. always liked that.

i have one really possible commercial hit suggestion. why not have ready made panchakaccham and madisars. all one has to do, is to fit into such designed garments, and press a few buttons to hold it together.

maybe one of these days, these types of garments will catch the eyes of the fashion designers, and then you will see madisar inspired female garments - they may owe their seed idea to madisar, but if fashion evolution is anything like what i have seen, it will be far more revealing and chic let us hope this happens within our time

 

[pannvalan]

Your idea was humourous indeed. But, who knows, if some popular fashion-designer designs such ready to wear garments and some super models or actors/actresses wear them, our youth also may be inspired to start wearing them. They (the youth) may claim openly that it was their ancestral dress and they have patent for the design!

 

[Nara]

Similarly, super fine dhotis (made of 100 counts/120 counts yarn) are very transparent and will present an ugly and embarrassing look.

Embarrassing mostly to the ones enduring unseemly sight, for the wearer goes about blissfully unaware.

I remember a time when one fellow had his yagypaveetham caught in the back fold and when he pulled on his poonal the whole thing came off.

Cheers!

 

[mohanakrishnan]

Regarding madisar/panchakacham

hi iyerponnu
if a brahmin boy or girl get married ,then they have to wear
the madisar/panchakacham regardless of anytime..
but nowadays it is left ,at least it is weared on ocassions ..
actually u can wear it daily and ur husband can have panchakacham
daily...
thanks

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

durga, pann,

why not look upon the evolution of garment as a evolution of times.

..................

so, i for one, would not recommend anyone necessarily shed tears over the disappearance of panchakaccham or madisar.

..............................

i have one really possible commercial hit suggestion. why not have ready made panchakaccham and madisars. all one has to do, is to fit into such designed garments, and press a few buttons to hold it together.

I always consider that let people choose what is convenient and comfortable to them .Let it be their choice.We want everything modern , but in some things we insist others should follow old traditions.Why this double standard?

Quote from Pannvalan "But, who knows, if some popular fashion-designer designs such ready to wear garments "

About ready made panchakacham I had posted in message 23 -page 4-under this thread. It went unresponded at that time,as topic got digressed then.
I quote that message An year back when I went to Hrishikesh,I saw , readymade(Stitched) Pnchakachams.I took a fancy to it and bought pair. But on an occasion when I asked my vadhyar reluctuntly about this to wear, he did not agree for that. But I saw many people buying correctly inquiring for that ,whereas I bought by seeing another person buying.

Why not we use them?



The two panchakachams remain still in my cupboard unused.


Greetings.

 

[kunjuppu]

I quote that message An year back when I went to Hrishikesh,I saw , readymade(Stitched) Pnchakachams.I took a fancy to it and bought pair. But on an occasion when I asked my vadhyar reluctuntly about this to wear, he did not agree for that. But I saw many people buying correctly inquiring for that ,whereas I bought by seeing another person buying.

Why not we use them?

The two panchakachams remain still in my cupboard unused.

Greetings.

surya,

would one know the difference between the asal and the nagal?

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

The stitched ones can be identified as so .But they come very close, The backside loop( the "U") is the betraying factor.The panchakacham is tied by a "Naada" like in a skirt.But a clever wrapping by uthariyam can hide the stitch as well as naada.
Nowadays I see many young boys wearing similar ones ( especially Jains on way to their Jain temple) when accompanying their elder who wear the real ones.

If the nakal is used more regularly by all , asal will eventually be looked upon as nakal.

Greetings

 

[pbkhema]

In the north panchakackam is the traditional male wear.When I went to Puri with our usual Veshti the Panda who was taking me asked me about my caste and then asked me to wear panchakacham.
Madiasr is unique.In the north for religious occassions the ladies put their pallu over their head and my wife was asked to do so in Bubaneshwar trmple when we wanted to perform a special Puja.
It varies from place to place and there is no rule laid down in the Smritis.It is all customory

 

[NKSharma]

பஞ்சகச்சம் என்றால் என்ன?

Dear Sri NKSharma Ji,
Welcome. It is wonderful see a posting from a fellow Trichyite.

There are a lot of members in this Forum who do not know Tamil, let alone how to read it. So, for their understanding, if you can give a translation or a gist or a transileration in English on your Tamil postings, it would be very helpful to those members.

Thanks.

Regards,
KRS

குக்ஷித்வயே ததா ப்ருஷ்டே நாபௌ த்வௌ பரிகீர்த்திதௌ
பஞ்சகச்சா:ஸ்து தே ப்ரோக்தா: சர்வ கர்மஸு ஷோபனா:


குக்ஷித்வயே ததா ப்ருஷ்டே நாபௌ த்வௌ பரிகீர்த்திதௌ
பஞ்சகச்சா:ஸ்து தே ப்ரோக்தா: சர்வ கர்மஸு ஷோபனா: - ஆசாரேந்து: P.No: 59 See here

குக்ஷி என்றால் இடுப்பு,
குக்ஷித்வயே = இரண்டிடுப்பில் ( வலது இடுப்பில் ஒன்று இடது இடுப்பில் ஒன்று )
ததா = அவ்வாறு
ப்ருஷ்டே =பின்புறத்தில் ஒன்று
நாபௌ = தொப்புளில் இரண்டு
கச்சம் என்றால் சொருகுதல்
பஞ்சகச்சா: = ஐந்து சொருகலானது
சர்வ கர்மஸு = எல்லா காரியங்களிலும்
ஷோபனா: = மன்களகரமானதாக
ப்ரோக்தா: = கூறப்படுகிறது

அதாவது வலது இடுப்பில் ஒரு சொருகல், இடது இடுப்பில் ஒன்று, பின்புறத்தில் ஒன்று, தொப்புள் பகுதியில் இரண்டு என்று ஐந்து சொருகுதல் முறையையே பஞ்சகச்சம் என்று பெரியோர்களால் கூறப்படுகிறது.

 

[sadasivam.sridharan]

Is there any difference between the way in which the panchakacham is tied by the vaishnavites and the saivaites?
S.Sridharan

 

[NKSharma]

Is there any difference between the way in which the panchakacham is tied by the vaishnavites and the saivaites?
S.Sridharan

There is no Any Difference Between Panchakaccham Of Shaivas & vaishnavas.

But only difference between ladies madisar.

For ladies No Any proof in Shastra. But its Just sampradayam.

I Don't Know fluent English. If Any Mistakes please sorry

 

[C RAVI]

swami,

i love that hahahahaha.. good going.

by the way, you have made so many observations about folks working in the IT sector, so that it appears to me, that they are aliens living in tamil nadu.

what is it that makes this group, cut across caste/religion and behave in an unique manner, so as to attract attention.

are all these attentions unwanted? are there anything admirable with those working in the IT sector? or is it just that they got plain lucky in life at an early age?

i have always thought that it takes certain smarts and work ethics to get into working in IT in india.

thank you.

Sri Kunjuppu ji,

A very good observation about IT people. I agree with your remarks that certain smart and work ethics get into working in IT in India.

As intelligent human beings IT professionals are achieving success in their endeavors and contributing constructively to the society.

In terms of tradition, there exists criticism on IT professionals among other folks. The reason being majority of IT professionals are much into American culture and consider themselves in par with westerners who don’t have any traditional sentiments mostly. There might be some valid reasons for these guys unable to focus on custom and tradition - A high level of work pressure and odd working hours.

In general many of the IT professionals are not sensual and consider tradition as outdated concepts and unwanted practices. I have seen many of the It girls wearing T-shirt & jeans Or kurta/top and jeans and guys wearing sleeveless T-shirt and Bermuda (a short/half pant) even during festivals and religious occasions. The exception is during Aavani Avittam when boys wear Veshti and get into performance. In fact many of the boys don't want to wear Poonal.

 

[Dr.S.Ramanathan]

The topic started by Iyer ponnu has been extensively discussed and also hilariously commented upon.
For everything, old or modern, there is an Acharam or a code followed. There is prescribed uniform for the services, Army, navy, airforce,police etc and different badges for different ranks. We see, among the civilians also,many companies prescribing uniforms and worn by the employees. The IT employees and many other modern high profile employees proudly wear their ID cards around their neck, wherever they go. The one common thread in all these is the ACHARAM or the CODE, which instinctly makes them follow a certain discipline, prescribed by their employee for their rank and position.

These dresses and IDs may be called the modern day version of Madisar and Panchakacham.The Madisar worn by Iyers, Iyengars and Madhwas are different and so also the Panchakacham worn in different parts of the country. The ready made Panchakacham available in Rishikesh and many other parts of the country are different from each other and is commensurate with the local customs.
The Panchakacham and Madisar, worn after marriage, are an identity to mark them as already married so that the permissive society that existed at that time, no longer turn their eyes on them.An uniform is to be worn on all occasions when you are at work and this applied to these dresses also.When the content and concept of work changed over time, the rigour of the uniform also changed and degenerated to what it is now. But, there is no gainsaying the fact that wearing of uniform brings in automatic and instant discipline and, therefore, the prescribed madisar and panchakacham also add discipline, grace and devotion to the wearer on such occasions. Afterall, it is a question of wearing different uniforms for different occasions. Those familiar with the Services would have noted that different uniforms are prescribed for different occasions for those in services.
Would you believe that the METTI given to the bride at the time of marriage nowadays, was originally an ID for the married man so that a girl crossing his path can identify him as already "sold out", because the girls of those times were not supposed to look straight but only keeping their faces downward all the time and therefore can easily identify the Metti wearing man !

I may conclude by saying that the only permanent thing is CHANGE and we are all the time struggling for CHANGE with CONTINUITY.
Dr.S.Ramanathan.

 

[KRS]

Dear Dr.S.Ramanathan Ji,

I agree with your thoughtful posting. My thinking is the same.

Regards,
KRS