Krishna Vs Indra in the Rigveda (Contd. from Temples, Temples and Temples here)

[renuka]

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I would expect god to demonstrate good to mankind. Jaya and Vijaya may have been something and not everybody can be expected to believe these stories. But the acts of god must be self explanatory. May be difficult to understand but must be explainable. I see two things. Sishupala got angry with krishna and kept on insulting him. The price that he paid was eventually death. Was that reasonable is the question?. I think the stories in Mahabharata may contain more clues regarding the character of sishupala. That is what is needed to pass a judgement.

Did Krishna really get insulted? Did He say He was insulted? We assumed it cos of our human nature to get insulted when we someone pisses us off. We humans tend to judge God based on our own nature.. we fail to realize that He is above Praise or Insult.

Remember the whole Sage Bhirgu and Lord Vishnu episode where Lakshmi leaves when she felt insulted that Bhirgu kicked Lord Vishnu and Lord Vishnu didnt get angry with Bhirgu.
See Lakshmi represents the Rajas aspect of Prakirti (Nature)..hence She viewed it as an insult to Lord Vishnu and left but Lord Vishnu pursued Her and brought Her back after some "hardship".
So thats symbolizes our nature when at times Rajas takes over and we view an action as a Praise or as an Insult but the actions of the Lord is always above Dualities and has a hidden message for mankind too and even though we dont understand Him in a bout of Rajas..He still pursues us and brings us back to His adobe.

The hidden message of this whole Sishupaal episode was what Lord Krishna told Yudhisthira that even one who spends time "abusing '' God in thoughts and words still actually spends his time contemplating on God and will attain the higher realms.

 

[Raghy]

Sowbagyavathy Renuka, Gretings.

Its Sishupal and Dantavakra.

Thank you. All this time I was under the impression that it was Kamsa and Sisubala. Thanks for the corrections. By the way, here are the beautiful statues of Jaya and Vijaya at Belur, Chennakesava temple. (Checkout that temple statues, please. It's breath taking!).

.....Ok what you have mentioned about the killing of devotees by Lord Vishnu was a deal that was accepted by both Jaya and Vijaya..they both were cursed to have 7 births as devotees in Bhuloka but they chose to have 3 births as the "anti heroes" so that they can come back to Vaikuntha as soon as possible.They could have chosen the 7 births instead..It was their desire..Thats whats Karma is all about.
They were the ultimate Bhaktas who didnt mind losing their lifes as an anti hero all for the sake of their Love for God.

I did not say Sri.Maha Vishnu 'murdered' them; even in a fair fight, the one who lost gets 'killed'. It is not murder. This puranic narration makes way to the following deductions.....

1. For all their learnings and knowledge, the said four Sanatakumara brothers should have/could have/would have developed telepathy communication capacities. (A person slave to all sort of emotions, with very limited to nil learnings, sometimes communicate with my wife without a spoken word......just for comparison). So, they had no need to wait at the gates; could have communicated with Maha Vishnu to get him at the gate, or better still, could have got Maha Vishnu to escort them all the way through those gates. If a 'learned person' becomes angry, that is not a good sign; here, four of them collectively became angry! What did they learn? Those guards were just doing their jobs!

2. புழுவாய் பிறக்கினும் புண்ணியா! உன்னடி
என்மனத்தே வழுவாதிருக்க வரம் தருவாய்! - தேவாரம்
Appar sought God's (Punniya!) blesings so as not to forget God's feet even when born as a worm! This is Devaaram, this is devotion. Irrespective of reasons, if Jaya and Vijaya chose to oppose Maha Vishnu and chose to raise arms against Maha Vishnu. I would not consider that as devotion at all! When he saw the statue's eye bleeding, Kannappan dug out his own eyes to replace 'God's eye'...that is devotion. So, it is hard to consider Jaya and Vijaya as comitted devotees.

3. Not only in Hinduism, as per all the religions, devotees seek God to stand with them at the time of need. Sanath Kumaras made dubious presentation at the gates; naturally, in the process of discharging their duties, Jaya and Vijaya stopped them. They were just doing their jobs; on top of that, they were said to be devotees. Maha Vishnu had a moral obligation to cancel the curse expressed by Sanath Kumaras as total rubbish and should have given them lessons in patience. தானத்திலே சிறந்த தானம், நிதானம். Maha Vishnu failed to protect his employees and failed to protect his devotees. (gate keepers union and devotees union should have gone on strike to seek justice from Maha Vishnu!).

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.Brahin,

Greetings. (It is Sriman. Sangom. Sri.Sangom is a male). Sri.Krishna or Sriman Narayana Killed his devotees.

The story goes like this.....

Brighu once visited all the 'three logas namely Brahma, Kailasa and Vaikunda'. He was not received well... He cursed Brahma that there would be no temple for him; Siva was in intimacy and did not notice Brighu.... Siva was cursed, that he would be worshipped in Phallic symbol....... At Vaikunda Loga, 'Dwara Balagas Jaya and Vijaya stopped him; Brighu cursed them that they would be born as Asuras.....

Jaya and Vijaya appealed to Maha Vishnu. Maha Vishnu granted them that they would be killed only by him. Jaya and Vijaya accepted that honour since they were devotees of Maha Vishnu.

Jaya and Vijaya were born as Hiranyakshan and Hiranya Kasibu; Kamsan and Sisu Balan and some more pair, I don't remember all the names. May be Ravana and Kumbakarna were amoung them too, I am not too
Dear Raghy may be ur right but they got killed only when they were not devotees in that birth...

Dear Sri. Brahin, Greetings.

This birth, next birth or the previous birth....the whole concept is but illusion. It is just the same Atman in every birth. Have you ever wondered about a very generous person (he/she could be beggar) who wouldn't heasitate to share the only meagre meal in their possesion? There are such very poor persons with a very broad mentality; I have seen persons, very rich but not an iota of compassion. It all boils down to Atman/consciousness. Jaya and Vijaya chose to oppose Maha Vishnu; they can't be called devotees anymore.

Secondly, why should they be killed? Purana story says, they were giving trouble to devotees and gave them hard time. Well, why can't we see that as the 'karma' of the victims? May be those victims deserved to go through hardships due to their 'poorva janma palan'..... in such a situation all those Asuras were doing their 'karma' only; they did not desrve to be killed. Maha Vishnu's actions can't be justified.

To make the matters worst, Jaya and Vijaya did not do anything wrong. Maha Vishnu did something wrong in the first place by failing to protect his employees.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Brahin dear,

If you do not like something, you do have an option -- do not read it any further, or start your own thread to say what you want. Surely you can leave this thread alone. Because its not about you alone. There are readers like me who are interested in knowing about the triad avataras of Jaya-Vijaya, of the role of Krishna and what it all means from the historical pov.

Your comments to Shri Sangom in posts 14, 15, 18, 19 are bad. Just because you do not like something does not mean that you make the kind of remarks you have on Sangom sir.

Smt. HH,

I am sure you have been in this forum for much longer period than I. Yet why are you trying to make a distinction between people and opinions? If I don't like your opinion that means I don't like you; this is the rule for குழாயடிச் சண்டை in old Madras. And that seems to apply in this forum also

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Dear Shri.Sangom,
A minor correction/amendment to your comments above.While Chennai may be notorious for such fights,I have seen similar fights in many cities/towns where there is acute water shortege and where there is no fair play in equitable distribution of water

 

[sangom]

Dear Sri. Brahin, Greetings.

This birth, next birth or the previous birth....the whole concept is but illusion. It is just the same Atman in every birth. Have you ever wondered about a very generous person (he/she could be beggar) who wouldn't heasitate to share the only meagre meal in their possesion? There are such very poor persons with a very broad mentality; I have seen persons, very rich but not an iota of compassion. It all boils down to Atman/consciousness. Jaya and Vijaya chose to oppose Maha Vishnu; they can't be called devotees anymore.

Secondly, why should they be killed? Purana story says, they were giving trouble to devotees and gave them hard time. Well, why can't we see that as the 'karma' of the victims? May be those victims deserved to go through hardships due to their 'poorva janma palan'..... in such a situation all those Asuras were doing their 'karma' only; they did not desrve to be killed. Maha Vishnu's actions can't be justified.

To make the matters worst, Jaya and Vijaya did not do anything wrong. Maha Vishnu did something wrong in the first place by failing to protect his employees.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Raghy,

First of all, according to the version of the story I have read, it was the sankaadi quartet (foursome) who wanted to "test" the triumvirates, and not bhṛgu. Brahma did not come out so they cursed that his worship will stop and he will no more have any murti. Siva also did not come out but responded and so the quartet cursed that he will be worshipped as linga. In the case of vishnu, jaya-vijayas stopped the quartet and hence the curse. I can only wonder why the greatly eulogised sanakaadikal got so inflammable! May be anger and intolerance increase in direct proportion to bhakti

 

[kiamzattu]

Did Krishna really get insulted? Did He say He was insulted? We assumed it cos of our human nature to get insulted when we someone pisses us off. We humans tend to judge God based on our own nature.. we fail to realize that He is above Praise or Insult.

Remember the whole Sage Bhirgu and Lord Vishnu episode where Lakshmi leaves when she felt insulted that Bhirgu kicked Lord Vishnu and Lord Vishnu didnt get angry with Bhirgu.
See Lakshmi represents the Rajas aspect of Prakirti (Nature)..hence She viewed it as an insult to Lord Vishnu and left but Lord Vishnu pursued Her and brought Her back after some "hardship".
So thats symbolizes our nature when at times Rajas takes over and we view an action as a Praise or as an Insult but the actions of the Lord is always above Dualities and has a hidden message for mankind too and even though we dont understand Him in a bout of Rajas..He still pursues us and brings us back to His adobe.

The hidden message of this whole Sishupaal episode was what Lord Krishna told Yudhisthira that even one who spends time "abusing '' God in thoughts and words still actually spends his time contemplating on God and will attain the higher realms.

Lakshmi doesn't represent anything. It is we who chose to represent Lakshmi as 'Rajasic'. It is purely contextual. We can also call 'Vishnu' as Rajasic because he is a world affirming God who takes part in 'worldly activities'. Shiva can be termed 'Satvic' for he renounces the world (the Ascetic God) but then when he becomes Sankara (marries Parvati, begots Sons) he becomes 'Rajasic'. Similarly 'Parvati or Gauri' could be represented as Satvic or Rajasic (Saraswathi IMHO is more Sattvic ) but another form of Gauri (kali) becomes Tamasic. So its just our way of categorization similar to other things that we categorize for easy remembrance.

Shri Raghy,

For all their learnings and knowledge, the said four Sanatakumara brothers should have/could have/would have developed telepathy communication capacities. (A person slave to all sort of emotions, with very limited to nil learnings, sometimes communicate with my wife without a spoken word......just for comparison). So, they had no need to wait at the gates; could have communicated with Maha Vishnu to get him at the gate, or better still, could have got Maha Vishnu to escort them all the way through those gates. If a 'learned person' becomes angry, that is not a good sign; here, four of them collectively became angry! What did they learn? Those guards were just doing their jobs!

As I said before (I read somewhere), Vishnu is a world affirming God. He takes part and expects people to attain moksha after competing all their worldly duties but these Sanatkumars (Sons of Brahma) didn't take part in the world that Vishnu protects. They didn't know how to perform worldly duties. So they are not worthy of Vishnu's darshan and since they didn't understand this they got angry.

The puranic writers knew that people (like you) would put forth logical and reasonable questions . So they have left us a pool of wisdom to be churned and provide answers. All the questions can be answered (logical or not).

Now you may ask why were the poor gate keepers punished?
Well somewhere (sometime) there would be a story where these gatekeepers (jaya and Vijaya) wanted to take part in the world. Since Vishnu is all knowing and all that he orchestrated this whole 'Sanat kumars' episode and fulfilled the gatekeepers wish and then there will be a Stotra praising Vishnu for this.
'He who grants wishes to true devotees',
'he who reads your thoughts and fulfils it' and so on and so forth.

Regards
Anand.

 

[renuka]

Dear Kiamzattu,

Agreed with what you replied to what I wrote..in the true sense Nothing represents Anything but for description purposes The One is Interpreted In Many ways not necessarily by the wise anymore(just to add some fun here..no offence to anyone..all of us are learning only)

Ok I am pasting an article here you might be interested in..Its about the Significance of Navaratri with regards to the 3 Gunas In Prakriti..

The inner meaning of the Navaratri festival was explained by Bhagavan Baba in His discourse in
the Prasanthi Mandir on September 27, 1992.
In the course of His discourse, Bhagavan Said:
Navaratri means nine nights. Darkness is associated with night. What is the darkness? It is the darkness of ignorance. The purpose of the Navaratri celebration is to enable man to get rid of nine types of darkness which have taken hold of him. When a reference is made to Devi, it signifies the unified form of Druga, Lakshmi and Saraswati. The three together represent Shakti. Shakti is the energy that account for all the phenomena of nature (Prakriti). Nature is energy and the controller of that energy is the Lord.
Nature (Prakriti) is make up of the three qualities, Satwa, Rajas and Tamas. Saraswati represents the Satwa guna, Lakshmi represnets the Rajo Guna and Parvati represents the Tamo Guna. As Prakriti (nature) is made up of these three qualities ( Satwa, Rajas and Tamas), to get control over Nature, man has been offering worship to Durga, Lakshmi and Saraswati. These are not goddesses but deified symbols of the three qualities.

GOD, MAN AND PRAKRITI

To acquire the grace of the Lord, man has to offer worship at the outset to Prakriti. On the one hand you need human effort and on the other you have to acquire the grace of the Divine. Prakriti (Nature) and Paramaatma (the Omni-Self) are like the negative and positive poles in electricity. However powerful the Lord may be ( as positive pole), there can be no creation without Prakriti ( representing the negative pole). The basis for creation is Prakriti. For instance, how-ever good the seeds you may have with you, without plainting them in ground you cannot reap the fruit. The role of Nature in the creative process in similar.

THE TRIPLE PURITY

When man forgets God and desires to enjoy the benefits of Nature, he becomes ultimately a demon like Ravana who brought about his own destruction. To secure the grace of the Lord, one has to have purity of the heart, purity in speech and purity in action. This triple purity is described in Vedantic parlance as Tripurasundari. Lakshmi, who is the embodiment of all prosperity, is represented by the heart. The mouth represents Saraswati. Purity in action (Kriya Sudhhi) is represented by Durga. The observance of the Navaratri celebration is to get rid of the darkness in which man is enveloped, by cultivating the triple purity of thought, word and deed.
The human body emerged from Nature. Nature has two forms: Aparaa Prakriti and Parra Prakriti. Aparaa Prakriti includes eight forms of wealth (Ashta Aiswarays), and Kama, Krodha, Moha, Lobha, Mada, Maatsarya and the three mental faculties in man: Manas, Chitta and Ahamkaara. Paraa Prakriti ( the higher Nature) represents the consciousness in man. Without the life force (Prana) and consciousness (Chaitanyam) mna is only a corpse. True humanness consists in controlling the five elements which make up the lower Nature (Aparaa Prakriti) and merge in the higher Nature represented by the life force and consciousness (Chaitanyam).
The Navaratri has been divided into three parts: the first three days being dedicated to the worship of Durga, the next three days to the worship of Lakshmi and the last three to the worship of Saraswati. All Hindu festivals have a sacred purpose. Unfortunately, now-a-days the festivals are observed only with external rituals without understanding their inner menaing. In the performance of all forms of worship there shoud be steadiness of mind and body. Only then concentration can be achieved. Today men are unable to maintain steadiness of body and mind.

ADORATION OF NATURE

The basic significance of Devi Navarathri is the adoration of Nature (Prakriti). Devi refers to Bhudevi ( Mother Earth). All the vital requirments of man can be found in the earth. Those who travel to the moon have to carry with them the oxygen, water and food they need from the earth. None of these can be found on the moon.
Students! The progress of modern technology, by polluting the atmosphere with Carbon dioxide smoke, is causing threat to life on earth. This smoke has already created a hole in the ozone ring above the earth which has been serving as a protecting cover against harmful radiation from the sun. If the ozone layer is destroyed the effect of the sun’s rays many be disastrous. All nations are now worried about this threat. All that needs to be done to avert this danger is to reduce the pollution of the atmosphere caused by automobiles and industrial effluents. The uncontrolled development should be in the common interest, to promote the welfare of all.

REVERING NATURE

The Navaratri celebration is an occasion for revering Nature and considering how natural resources can be used properly in the best interests of mankind. Resources like water, air, power and minerals shoud be used properly and not misused or wasted. Economy in the use of every natural resource is vital. Pollution of the air has many evil consequences. The inner significance of obervances like Nagara Sankirtan and bhajans is to fill the atmosphere with sacred vibrations and holy thoughts.
Today we know how radio and television broadcasts are transmitted to all parts of the world by radiowaves. Is it unbelievable that Krishna was able similarly to appear in the homes of Gopikas simultaneously? If a yantra (machine) could achieve such a result, how much power should be attributed to mantra? The power of the divine name and form is all pervading. The electro-magnetic waves in the atmosphere can preserve sounds and forms for all time.
When Swami was recently in Hyderabad, His activities there were seen on the TV in various parts of the country. If a mechanical contrivance could achieve this, is it incredible that much more could be done by the divine power of mantras? What is needed is the power to tune in to the Spirit just as appropriate tuning is needed to receive a radio or TV broadcast. Regard your heart as a radio receiver. Your concentration is the tuning device. You will experience the Divine when you tune your heart properly. This calls for firm, unwavering concentration.
The inauguration of the Navaratri celebrations means that you should use this occasion for offering worship to Nature and resolving to make sacred use of all natural resources.
SPIRITUAL BASIS OF DASARA FESTIVAL

In the course of His discourse on Vijayadasami day, Bhagavan called for the observance of festivals like Navaratri as a spiritual exercise rather than as a formal ritual. Bhagavan said:
The Lord created everything from Truth and everything is permeated by Truth. Realise that there is nothing in the world that is not based on Truth and everything is composed of Suddha Satva (the divine essence). Man has forgotten this fact.
Man has emerged from the Divine (Madhava). Forgetting this truth is the delusion (Maya) from which man suffers. A true human being cannot suffer from this delusion.
Embodiment of Divine Love!
Humanness is inextricably linked to divinity and is not separate from it. The same Atma resides in all beings. There are various limbs and organs in the body such as hands, legs, eyes, nose, mouth, ears etc,. All of them are integral parts of the body. There is an intimate connection between these different limbs and the Indweller (Sariri) in the body. The Jivatma is the Indweller. The limbs constitute the body. The relationship between the Indweller and the body is integral. All limbs belong to the individual. Hence the Indweller will not hate any limb. The Indweller (Sariri) will not feel happy if any limb suffers because all limbs belong to him and their experiences are also his.
Likewise, Vishnu pervades the cosmos as His body. All things in the cosmos are limbs of the body of Vishnu. Hence, no one should have any aversion to anything in the universe. He should not hate any one, because the same Divine is present in you and in everything in the universe.
The cosmos has three forms: the gross, the subtel and the causal. The physical universe represents the gross form. The subtle form is the mind and subtler than mind is the Atma.

THE FIVE KOSAS

A human being has five sheaths. These five sheaths have been grouped into three. The gross sheath is the Annamaya (Kosa). The three Kosas, Praanamaya (vital breath), Manomaya ( the mental seath) and the Vijnaanamaya ( the intellectual sheath) together constitute the subtle sheath. The causal sheath is the Anandamaya Kosa( the Bliss sheath). Even the last sheath does not represent total bliss, because there is a higher entity above the Anandamaya Kosa. This is known as Mahakaarana or supracausal entity. This is the Atmic principle.
Because every individual has these three bodies, he is called Tripurasundari. Every human being has these “Tripuras”( three cities). The three puras are the body, the mind and the heart. Since the Prakriti element which is feminine in nature, is present in greater measure in the body, it is termed as Sundari ( a beautiful damsel).
During the Navaratri festival Tripurasundari is worshipped. Unfortunately, from ancient times people have been observing only the external forms of worship without understanding the inner significance of these festivals. The entire cosmos is a temple. The Lord pervades the cosmos. Nature (Prakriti) teaches the spiritual truth about Navaratri. Realise the love of Sai through spiritual practice. The Lord has to be realised through sadhana. Sadhana does not mean adoring God in a particular place or in a particual form. It means thinking of God in all that you do wherever you may be. It may be asked whether this is possible. The answer is that it is possible by dedicating every action to God.

SELF—DECEPTION IN WORSHIP

During Navaratri there is a form of worship called Angaarpana Pooja. In this form of worship,all the limbs of the body are offered to the Divine in spirit of surrender (Saranagati). Surrender means offering everything to the Divine and giving up the idea of separation between oneself and the Divine. There can be no true surrender if there is a sense of separation. There must be the conviction that it is the same Divine who dwells in all being ( Ekam Vasi Sarvabhuta-antaraatma).
In the performance of Angaarpana pooja, there is a form of self deception. When a devotee says, “ Netram samarpayaami” (I offer my eyes to the Lord) and offer only a flower to the Lord, he is indulging in a kind of deception. The proper thing would be to say that he is offering a flower. Actually mantras like “ Netram Samarpayaami” are intended to indicate that one is using his eyes only to see God. The real significance of the mantra is that you think of the divine in whatever you see or do. Therefore, true meaning of the Angaarpana pooja is to declare that you offer all your limbs in the service of the lord. This means that whatever work you do should be done as an offering to God. Now-a-days selfishness is rampant among devotees and they love God not for God’s sake but only to get their selfish desire fulfilled. As long as selfishness prevail, the Divine cannot be understood.
The Navaratri festival should be used as an occasion to examine one’s own nature whether it is human, animal or demonic, and strive to transform the animal nature to the human and divinise the human nature. Wisdom cannot be acquired from outside. It has to be got through inward Sadhana. (Taken from S/S 11/92 P. 267-271)

 

[Brahin]

Brahin dear,

If you do not like something, you do have an option -- do not read it any further, or start your own thread to say what you want. Surely you can leave this thread alone. Because its not about you alone. There are readers like me who are interested in knowing about the triad avataras of Jaya-Vijaya, of the role of Krishna and what it all means from the historical pov.

Your comments to Shri Sangom in posts 14, 15, 18, 19 are bad. Just because you do not like something does not mean that you make the kind of remarks you have on Sangom sir.

Dear Happy hindu why ru unhappy about my comment why dont u follow what u said.......if u do not like something u have an option do not read it any further & moreover what kind of hindu ru if somebody is rude to god ur happy & if somebody is rude to that person ur unhappy.....

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Happy hindu why ru unhappy about my comment why dont u follow what u said.......if u do not like something u have an option do not read it any further & moreover what kind of hindu ru if somebody is rude to god ur happy & if somebody is rude to that person ur unhappy.....

Your comments are not worthwhile to be unhappy about. Its just no good to make the kind of comments you have on Sangom sir (wrt post 14, and post 19). Just by exploring something from the historical pov does not make anyone "rude to god". If anyone wants to explore something you need not pass personal comments on the poster. If you have something to contradict a point, then leave the poster alone, and post stuff pertaining to the topic.

 

[Brahin]

Your comments are not worthwhile to be unhappy about. Its just no good to make the kind of comments you have on Sangom sir (wrt post 14, and post 19). Just by exploring something from the historical pov does not make anyone "rude to god". If anyone wants to explore something you need not pass personal comments on the poster. If you have something to contradict a point, then leave the poster alone, and post stuff pertaining to the topic.

Happy hindu dear...1st u decide u find my coment rude or stupid?

 

[Nara]

... If I don't like your opinion that means I don't like you; this is the rule for குழாயடிச் சண்டை in old Madras. And that seems to apply in this forum also

are we not insulting those poor women trying fetch some water for their family? If they were familiar with the kind of personal labeling and insults that are liberally used here, they may say to each other, why are we fighting like those folks in TB.com, don't we have any decency left?

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

are we not insulting those poor women trying fetch some water for their family? If they were familiar with the kind of personal labeling and insults that are liberally used here, they may say to each other, why are we fighting like those folks in TB.com, don't we have any decency left?

Cheers!

Sure, if the chronology were in the reverse! We have to go linearly unidirection, w.r.t. time, you see

 

[sangom]

Lakshmi doesn't represent anything. It is we who chose to represent Lakshmi as 'Rajasic'. It is purely contextual. We can also call 'Vishnu' as Rajasic because he is a world affirming God who takes part in 'worldly activities'. Shiva can be termed 'Satvic' for he renounces the world (the Ascetic God) but then when he becomes Sankara (marries Parvati, begots Sons) he becomes 'Rajasic'. Similarly 'Parvati or Gauri' could be represented as Satvic or Rajasic (Saraswathi IMHO is more Sattvic ) but another form of Gauri (kali) becomes Tamasic. So its just our way of categorization similar to other things that we categorize for easy remembrance.

Shri Raghy,

The puranic writers knew that people (like you) would put forth logical and reasonable questions . So they have left us a pool of wisdom to be churned and provide answers. All the questions can be answered (logical or not).

Now you may ask why were the poor gate keepers punished?
Well somewhere (sometime) there would be a story where these gatekeepers (jaya and Vijaya) wanted to take part in the world. Since Vishnu is all knowing and all that he orchestrated this whole 'Sanat kumars' episode and fulfilled the gatekeepers wish and then there will be a Stotra praising Vishnu for this.
'He who grants wishes to true devotees',
'he who reads your thoughts and fulfils it' and so on and so forth.

Some brāhmaṇas (like me) therefore (see the lines in bold) conclude that whatever has been said about kṛṣṇa or lakṣmī, or, for that matter any other godhead is all because some "us" thought of writing up so, just as in our times Kalki, the writer, Devan, etc., wrote and created lasting memories of characters; the disadvantage for Kalki and Devan and others like them was that they were late, by very much and so could not "fit" their characters up as divinities, Supreme divinities and so on. This IMHO is the beginning of agnosticism. It requires either the intrepidity to question god itself, or, the gullibility of a shepherd who, on seeing a many headed-kali, pitied her condition when she caught a common cold, and started laughing out loud

 

[sangom]

Now-a-days selfishness is rampant among devotees and they love God not for God’s sake but only to get their selfish desire fulfilled. As long as selfishness prevail, the Divine cannot be understood.
The Navaratri festival should be used as an occasion to examine one’s own nature whether it is human, animal or demonic, and strive to transform the animal nature to the human and divinise the human nature. Wisdom cannot be acquired from outside. It has to be got through inward Sadhana. (Taken from S/S 11/92 P. 267-271)

If anyone has the time and patience/perseverence to study the evolution of religions/religious thoughts in this world, it will be seen that each people and each age had their own gods and, more importantly, god concepts. Man's (Woman's) mind gave shape to gods/goddesses according to their emotional needs, in each period of time, just as dress designers of today design very many styles, of which only a few catch the imagination of the masses and ultimately end up as new styles, country-wide or even world-wide. In a very similar way, some gods/goddesses appealed to the minds of the masses, while others failed to do so. Hence, if today "selfishness is rampant among devotees and they love God not for God’s sake but only to get their selfish desire fulfilled", new gods/deities will make their way in. In case SSB was referring to "his" devotees, new godmen will arise who will be more intent on fulfilling the various desires of the devotees and will not expect their devotees loving them (the god) for god's sake.

Our writers (scribes) on the Sanatana Dharma side have been prolific and have created a deluge of religious writings. (May be because preaching has ever been easier than practising ). Hence, we will also find many references to the "bhaktavatsala" aspect of god in the very same source from which the above Copy&Paste job has been made, IMO.

 

[gopaindu]

Shishupala's murder by Krishna

Dear Subbudu1,
Jaya & Vijaya (Dwarapalas of God's abode) had a curse from Brigu Rishi that he should go to this world and reamained there. Vishnu(God) later convinced the rishi that they had prevented him entering his abode only with his permission. Further, they are not so evolved as the rishi. Then Rishi was pleased. Subsequently, the God modified the curse with the permission of the rishi, giving them a choice as to whether they would like to be in this world as satviks for 100 briths or be enemies of God for three births in this world. Then they chose to remain enemies only in three births. However, they requested that they should only be slained by God. The three births were Hiranyakshan & Hiranyakasipu, Ravanan & Kumbakarnan and Kamsan & Shishupalan. Further, Krishna had promised the monther of Shishupalan that he would be slained only after he was pardoned after he commits 100 sins. Even before slaiining, God asked him to sop rebuking Krishna. But he never paid heed. He committed the 101th sin he was slained by God. This is how the story goes. Whether this story iitself is concocted or not, I do not know. Further, it is foolish to measure the unlimited intelligence with a limited intelligence. Here Unlimited intelligence refers to God and limited intelligence refers to people like us. If we go on questioning each and everything and try to found whether this is true or that is true, there is no limit. The amount spent on questioning things could better be utilised in accepting what we have got and evolve ourselves to a higher plane of thinking. In one of upanishad, Varuna asked his father what is brahmam and the father advised him to find out the answer himself. For a few times he returned to his father whether things found by him were brahmam. Then the father asked him to do tapas further and later on he did not return to his father as he had realised brahmam. The moral is to raise a question yourself and try to find an answer yourself on consistent and deep thinking. This can only evolve a person to a higher plane of thinking. wishing you all the best. raja48

 

[Nara]

Dear raja48,

... The three births were Hiranyakshan & Hiranyakasipu, Ravanan & Kumbakarnan and Kamsan & Shishupalan.

Renu has already pointed out that the last of the three pairs is not Kamsan and Shisupalan, it is Dantavakran and Shishupalan please see post #22.

Further, Krishna had promised the monther of Shishupalan that he would be slained only after he was pardoned after he commits 100 sins.

I think Krishna had promised his aunt that he will tolerate 100 offenses, not sins. If offensive words against the "supreme godhead" is sinful, would it matter if Shishupalan knew Krishna to be the "supreme godhead" or not? In other words, would the "supreme godhead" take into account whether Sisupalan knew who he was insulting?

Unless one sees some hidden message in this episode, it seems Krishna acted like any ordinary king would, except he showed some extraordinary self control, he waited for the 101st offensive word.

Further, it is foolish to measure the unlimited intelligence with a limited intelligence.

Of course, but is it foolish to question a limited intelligence asserting that this or that is unlimited intelligence? Specifically, why is it so foolish to question your assertion that Krishna is unlimited intelligence?

If we go on questioning each and everything and try to found whether this is true or that is true, there is no limit. The amount spent on questioning things could better be utilised in accepting what we have got and evolve ourselves to a higher plane of thinking.

You quote a Upanishad later, suppose that the pupils in those upanaishads had followed your advice of not questioning, we probably wouldn't have any upanishads at all, no?

Then the father asked him to do tapas further and later on he did not return to his father as he had realised brahmam.

Perhaps he realized the futility of such efforts and just went away to do something useful , just a thought!



Let me leave you with a verse from Nammazhvar's Thiruvaymozhi (#7.5.2) about this Sishupalan episode:

கேட்பார்கள் கேசவன் கீர்த்தியல்லால் மற்றும் கேட்பரோ
கேட்பார் செவிசுடு கீழ்மை வசவுகளே வையும்
சேட்பால் பழம் பகைவன் சிசுபாலன், திருவடி
தாட்பால் அடைந்த தன்மை அறிவாரை அறிந்துமே?
​

சேட்பால் = for a long time, தாட்பால் = near the feet.

This verse claims that those who know the story of how even Sisupalan, who rained down insults that burn the ears of those who hear them, attained the proximity of those beautiful feet, why would they hear anything other than the praise of Kesavan?

This indeed is a great question, if I believe this episode really happened and Krishna is the supreme godhead, then I would also fear for my life if I say anything negative about him and readily consent to be a sycophant of Kesavan.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Dear Shri Raghy,

First of all, according to the version of the story I have read, it was the sankaadi quartet (foursome) who wanted to "test" the triumvirates, and not bhṛgu. Brahma did not come out so they cursed that his worship will stop and he will no more have any murti. Siva also did not come out but responded and so the quartet cursed that he will be worshipped as linga. In the case of vishnu, jaya-vijayas stopped the quartet and hence the curse. I can only wonder why the greatly eulogised sanakaadikal got so inflammable! May be anger and intolerance increase in direct proportion to bhakti

Sri.Sangom Sir, Greetings.

I thought Sanakaadi brothers were known for their knowledge. Some of these persons with 'great knowledge' are also known for the lowly quality of anger. There are so many references of 'great personalities' getting angry in our puranas; I always wondered, why such personalities are considered 'great' if they can't behave like normal human beings? Here we have Sanakaadi brothers, that too a team of four getting agro! It is not just the case of obne person loosing 'the marbles' at an isolated situation; but, four of them! I have given a detailed reply here about bakti when I quoted Devaram. (One more personality is Durvasar - complete psycho. Just to get him to tell a lie, he caused Hrichandra a book full of troubles ( a thick book at that too!). Durvasar should have been imprisoned and the key should have been thrown away.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Dear raja48,

Renu has already pointed out that the last of the three pairs is not Kamsan and Shisupalan, it is Dantavakran and Shishupalan please see post #22.

Dear Shri Nara,

Of the 3 pairs dantavaktra (usually spelled as Dantavakra also) seems to have been a “bussz vaanam”. See this. Dantavakra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think Krishna had promised his aunt that he will tolerate 100 offenses, not sins. If offensive words against the "supreme godhead" is sinful, would it matter if Shishupalan knew Krishna to be the "supreme godhead" or not? In other words, would the "supreme godhead" take into account whether Sisupalan knew who he was insulting?

Unless one sees some hidden message in this episode, it seems Krishna acted like any ordinary king would, except he showed some extraordinary self control, he waited for the 101st offensive word.

IMHO, śiśupāla was only objecting to kṛṣṇa having been given first arghya (agrāsana) in the rājasūya of yudhiṣṭira. The attached pages give the relevant pages from M. Bh. and hindi translations.

Of course, but is it foolish to question a limited intelligence asserting that this or that is unlimited intelligence? Specifically, why is it so foolish to question your assertion that Krishna is unlimited intelligence?

This is the pivotal point. If for example you now claim to be an avatar like kṛṣṇa, I will be running a real risk because I may meet with the same fate as did śiśupāla; is this not sufficient protection for you? I hold the view that fake godmen also avail the same protection initially and that is why many of them declare one fine day that they are real “avataara”. Then their road gets cleared, and, for the rest of their “spiritual” sojourn here in this world they hardly face any questioning or doubts. But the proof of their bluff is that unlike Bheeshma they do not die at their will but at the will of doctors, governments and other fallen powers-that-be; nor do they die of any arrow shot by a hunter J

You quote a Upanishad later, suppose that the pupils in those upanaishads had followed your advice of not questioning, we probably wouldn't have any upanishads at all, no?

Perhaps he realized the futility of such efforts and just went away to do something useful , just a thought!

As for the first part Varuna was not an avataara, but a vedic deity at best. Hence Varuna would also have been of “limited intelligence” IMHO. His son bhrigu (who caused Sisupaala according to Raghy’s version !) wanted to be taught about “Brahman” (adhīhi bhagavo brahma). Ultimately Bhrigu comes to the conclusion ānando brahmeti vyajānāt (Ananda or bliss is Brahman). Now gopaindu is also in bliss because he admits we are all “limited intelligences” and since “ignorance is bliss”. I have had this feeling that if you are happy, blissful, then you know Brahman. That is perhaps why, right in the rigvedic days the rishis sipped the exhilarating drink called “soma” and felt blissful and composed such unmatched riks about Brahman and many other topics under the sun.

Let me leave you with a verse from Nammazhvar's Thiruvaymozhi (#7.5.2) about this Sishupalan episode:

கேட்பார்கள் கேசவன் கீர்த்தியல்லால் மற்றும் கேட்பரோ
கேட்பார் செவிசுடு கீழ்மை வசவுகளே வையும்
சேட்பால் பழம் பகைவன் சிசுபாலன், திருவடி
தாட்பால் அடைந்த தன்மை அறிவாரை அறிந்துமே?
​

சேட்பால் = for a long time, தாட்பால் = near the feet.

This verse claims that those who know the story of how even Sisupalan, who rained down insults that burn the ears of those who hear them, attained the proximity of those beautiful feet, why would they hear anything other than the praise of Kesavan?

This indeed is a great question, if I believe this episode really happened and Krishna is the supreme godhead, then I would also fear for my life if I say anything negative about him and readily consent to be a sycophant of Kesavan.

Cheers!

I do not feel Sisupala rained down insults; they look to me one view – contemporary may be – about Krishna which does not seem to be baseless. Kindly see the attached images and also The Mahabharata, Book 2: Sabha Parva: Rajasuyika Parva: Section XXXVI

 

[subbudu1]

From Sabha Parva of Mahabharata The Mahabharata, Book 2: Sabha Parva: Sisupala-badha Parva: Section XLIV
we listen to Krishna's reasons for killing sishupala

Ruler of Chedi endued with exceeding prowess, desirous of combating with Vasudeva addressed him and said,--O Janarddana, I challenge thee. Come, fight with me until I slay thee today with all the Pandavas. For, O Krishna, the sons of Pandu also, who disregarding the claims of all p. 88
these kings, have worshipped thee who art no king, deserve to be slain by me along with thee. Even this is my opinion, O Krishna, that they who from childishness have worshipped thee, as if thou deservest it, although thou art unworthy of worship, being only a slave and a wretch and no king, deserve to be slain by me.' Having said this, that tiger among kings stood there roaring in anger. And after Sisupala had ceased, Krishna addressing all the kings in the presence of the Pandavas, spoke these words in a soft voice.--'Ye kings, this wicked-minded one, who is the son of a daughter of the Satwata race, is a great enemy of us of the Satwata race; and though we never seek to injure him, he ever seeketh our evil. This wretch of cruel deeds, ye kings, hearing that we had gone to the city of Pragjyotisha, came and burnt Dwaraka, although he is the son of my father's sister. While king Bhoja was sporting on the Raivataka hill, this one fell upon the attendants of that king and slew and led away many of them in chains to his own city. Sinful in all his purpose, this wretch, in order to obstruct the sacrifice of my father, stole the sacrificial horse of the horse-sacrifice that had been let loose under the guard of armed men. Prompted by sinful motives, this one ravished the reluctant wife of the innocent Vabhru (Akrura) on her way from Dwaraka to the country of the Sauviras. This injurer of his maternal uncle, disguising himself in the attire of the king of Karusha, ravished also the innocent Bhadra, the princess of Visala, the intended bride of king Karusha. I have patiently borne all these sorrows for the sake of my father's sister. It is, however, very fortunate that all this hath occurred today in the presence of all the kings. Behold ye all today the hostility this one beareth towards me. And know ye also all that he hath done me at my back. For the excess of that pride in which he hath indulged in the presence of all these monarchs, he deserveth to be slain by me. I am ill able to pardon today the injuries that he hath done me. Desirous of speedy death, this fool had desired Rukmini. But the fool obtained her not, like a Sudra failing to obtain the audition of the Vedas."
Vaisampayana continued,--"Hearing these words of Vasudeva, all the assembled monarchs began to reprove the ruler of Chedi. But the powerful Sisupala, having heard these words, laughed aloud and spoke thus,--'O Krishna, art thou not ashamed in saying in this assembly, especially before all these kings that Rukmini (thy wife) had been coveted by me? O slayer of Madhu, who else is there than thee, who regarding himself a man would say in the midst of respectable men that his wife had been intended for some body else? O Krishna, pardon me if thou pleasest, or pardon me not. But angry or friendly, what canst thou do unto me?'
"And while Sisupala was speaking thus, the exalted slayer of Madhu thought in his mind of the discus that humbleth the pride of the Asuras. And as soon as the discus came into his hands, skilled in speech the illustrious
p. 89
one loudly uttered these words,--'Listen ye lords of earth, why this one had hitherto been pardoned by me. As asked by his mother, a hundred offences (of his) were to be pardoned by me. Even this was the boon she had asked, and even this I granted her. That number, ye kings, hath become full. I shall now slay him in your presence, ye monarchs.' Having said this, the chief of the Yadus, that slayer of all foes, in anger, instantly cut off the head of the ruler of Chedi by means of his discus. And the mighty-armed one fell down like a cliff struck with thunder. And, O monarch, the assembled kings then beheld a fierce energy, like unto the sun in the sky, issue out of the body of the king of Chedi, and O king, that energy then adored Krishna, possessed of eyes like lotus leaves and worshipped by all the worlds, and entered his body. And all the kings beholding the energy which entered that mighty-armed chief of men regarded it as wonderful.

This injurer of his maternal uncle, disguising himself in the attire of the king of Karusha, ravished also the innocent Bhadra, the princess of Visala, the intended bride of king Karusha

This line caught my attention especially. I think the devotees of Krishna can live with this explanation of sishupala's wickedness. What is surprising however to me, is why do the devotees run away from discussing something from a logical context? Why they have to say that they dont need reason to defend krishna? The story should have contained a background but there seems to be a reluctance in many devotees here, to look for an explanation. That is surprising to me!

 

[subbudu1]

From Sabha Parva of Mahabharata The Mahabharata, Book 2: Sabha Parva: Sisupala-badha Parva: Section XLIV
we listen to Krishna's reasons for killing sishupala


This line caught my attention especially. I think the devotees of Krishna can live with this explanation of sishupala's wickedness. What is surprising however to me, is why do the devotees run away from discussing something from a logical context? Why they have to say that they dont need reason to defend krishna? The story should have contained a background but there seems to be a reluctance in many devotees here, to look for an explanation. That is surprising to me!

Refer to this as well

This one ravished the reluctant wife of the innocent Vabhru (Akrura) on her way from Dwaraka to the country of the Sauviras.

 

[renuka]

Lets take a break and enjoy this song...

YouTube - Puthiyulla Manidharellam (Chandrababu song video)

 

[happyhindu]

Sangom Sir,

I feel there is a lot more to this story.

Story goes that in MBh there were 7 sons of Brahma (the term 'son of brahma' to me basically is a eupemism for men of unknown origin who had become ascetics). But only 4 of them chose to go to meet Vishnu in Vaikunta in Bhagavat Purana. And these 4 'cursed' the door-keepers, Jaya-Vijaya. Interestingly these 4 also became the part of Nimbarka Vaishnava sampradaya.

Now if we divide the characters in the story according to their loyalties, we wud have:

1) Jaya and Vijaya originally from the Vishnu camp.

2) Sanathkumaras from the Brahma camp.

The Brahma Camp 'cursed' 2 members of the Vishnu Camp resulting in Jaya and Vijaya being reborn 3 times as anti-Vishnu; usually as devotees of Shiva. So the outcome of the 'curse' was:

3.a) Hiranyaksha and Hiranyakasipu
3.b) Ravana and Kumbhakarna
3.c) Shishupala and Dantavakra

Does this mean the story of Jaya Vijaya was 'created' to cause a merger between the Vishnu camp and Shiva camp with the Brahma Camp as a mediator?

From the historic pov, it is interesting to note that the cave temples of Jaya-vijaya, Vaikuntha, Swargapuri, Tiger (Puli), Serpant (Naga), were carved out by 'Jain' ascetics in 1st century BC in Kalinga (near Bhuvaneshwar at Udayagiri-Khandagiri). These cave temples bring the Puli-Naga connection into light again. (there are also other 'Jaina' caves that depict the dasavataras).

Interestingly, the Jaya-Vijaya cave at Kalinga has a bodhi tree carved in its central compartment. The Anantha cave and Ganesh cave are in the same vicinity. According to Brahmanda Purana , Anantha the Naga was a close friend of Vishnu.

If we take the characters in point 3 into consideration, we wud have further connections as follows:

3.a) In Puranas, Andhaka was the son of Shiva-Parvati but was given in adoption to Hiranyaksha; only to be killed by Shiva for lusting after Parvati. But the Varaha-Perumal cave temple at Mahabalipuram shows a scene of Varaha avatara rescuing Bhoodevi kidnapped by the demon Hiranyaksha.

3.b) When Valmiki (who btw was supposedly from the Boya tribe) wrote Ramayana, we do not know if he was aware of puranas. But the links between puranas and itihasas are amazing. Now the Ramayana basically is a story where Rama defeats Ravana with the help of a bunch of monkeys. Some say the boyars themselves were 'ban' (forest) 'jaras' (dwellers), so Valmiki basically brings his own people, that is, the forest-dwelling banjaras such as savaras and boyas into a 'merger' scene with the Aryan (naga) king, Rama. Am taking Rama to be a Naga because he was born in the line of the Naga king Takshaka.

3.c) IMO, Krishna killing Sisupala was merely dynastic struggle for power and kingship (and also some sibling rivalry perhaps), all within the same family.

Am thinking perhaps all these are tribal stories belong to the time period when the autroasiatic speakers (Nagas) and dravidian speakers (old Persian / old aryan asuras) were merging after tribal fights (by creating stories). And i suppose this was long before the Indo-Eupropean speakers arrived on the scene. Perhaps the IE speakers merely recorded pre-existing stories and preserved them in their own language Sanskrit. What are your views on this sir?

Regards.

 

[sangom]

Refer to this as well

Shri Subbudu,

I feel we should make a distinction between devotees of Krsna and those who are into the so-called Krsna cult. Any cult prohibits intelligent enquiry because no cult can withstand rational questioning, IMO, probably. And those who may withstand rational questioning - like the atheists - do not take their association to the cult status.

Thus, in the Krsna cult, He (Krsna) is beyond any enquiry, probe, questioning and reproach. This nascent trend will be visible if you read sisupala vadha episode. The other side of the coin is that "koojaas" like Bheeshma, the Pandavas, gopis, etc., are always favoured. That is why Smt. Renuka has very appropriately posted
புத்தியுள்ள மனிதரெல்லாம் வெற்றி காண்பதில்லை
வெற்றிபெற்ற மனிதரெல்லாம் புத்திசாலியில்லை

If you want to be successful in life, keep your rationality away, blindly follow Krsna; otherwise you may end up as unsuccessful as the three hiranya (jaya-vijaya) pairs! That is the moral

The Krsna cult called sahajiya in parts of W. Bengal and Orissa required each male member to have a female companion other than his married wife, as a companion of his sddhana, looks upon his companion as Radha and himself as Krishna, and imitates the love-pastimes of Krishna with the Gopls. He worships Radha-Krishna not in idols or images but in the amorous foreplays he makes with his sadhana-companion. Yet another milestone achieved by Krsna cult was that this identification of male beings with gopis went so far as to observe 3 days of menses every month by all the male sadhakas also; this foolishness was quelled only when the public ire rose against it Pl. see this from the horse's mouth, so to say!

 

[happyhindu]

Shri Subbudu,

Your posts 45 and 46 are interesting. Well, i do not think kings really followed any laws, esp in wars. Everything is fair in love and war you see. So indiscriminate killing, power struggle, capturing women, etc were all part of their way of life.

Lets put it this way, after all the wars and struggles, the best man won. And those whom the best man protected, felt he was worthy enough to be raised to godhood (because he protected them).

Today everyone prays to all gods. Because we are living in the post-merger times. But back upon a time, tribes were very divided. Each tribe had their own deity or protector god / goddess. And these gods fought against one another. So apparently everyone did not worship common gods.

Regards.