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DIGNIFIED DEATH

DIGNIFIED DEATH
………………………
Patients who have an irreversible medical problem that is totally incompatible with a fairly normal life, are seen to be admitted in the Intensive Care Units and almost invariably connected to a Ventilator to assist in proper breathing so that all the organs are (falsely) rejuvenated.If the heart stops beating ,again a cardiac massage is tried to revive him/her, don’t know for what.And he/she is declared dead after a few days.

Doctors or the patient’s relatives are never to be blamed.A doctor has to try his level best to save his patient but should have the presence of mind to talk to the bystanders about the true state of affairs .Patient’s people too should not compel doctors to proceed with futile attempts at any cost.Communication between the doctor and the patient’s relatives has to be effective enough to prevent unnecessary prolonged and expensive treatment with poor outcome.Relatives may feel less burdened by guilt if Physicians strongly recommend that life support is futile and it can be withdrawn, rather than asking the family to make the decision.

In various intensive care units around 10% patients are put on advanced life support despite there being no chance of them benefiting from the treatment.

I lost my husband, though at his ripe age of 81, very recently.He was a chronic cardiac patient who had undergone a number of risky surgeries .After a surgery for Aneurysm of the Aorta in 2011 he was given a lifetime of just 5 more years but as he followed a strict lifestyle with all health checkups and advices he could make it well for another 6 years.He died of a urinary infection which did not respond to any antibiotics under the sky.He had to be on various antibiotics for long term in his childhood and after his surgeries.As a result his urinary bacteria became resistant to antibiotics.

He had multi-organ failure and was put on ventilator support.His reports were all bad and I , backed by my family,(the patient ie my husband,myself,son and d in law are doctors),requested the doctors to withdraw his life supports.They were hesitant and and were very sincerely around to find ways to save their ex colleague‘s husband. 2 more days passed and they obeyed our request.I would have got him back home, a very rare chance, after a few weeks or months of intensive treatment, in a vegetative state.As septuagenarians I and husband used to discuss about death and both of us were adamant that unnecessary life supports should not prolong our lives.

My 96 yr old Amma called me one late evening,‘you reach here today’.It was just 2 hours drive but I had patients waiting and had a busy surgery schedule the next day.My mom said, in her usual way,‘Are you the only Gynaecologist there?’..On reaching I found that she had a chest pain and was refusing to go to hospital. She had a similar event a few months back.She said,‘they will put me in the ICU and revive me.I have lived my life fully’.After assuring her that she wouldn’t be admitted to the ICU we took her to the hospital.She was given medicines to alleviate the severe pain.She had a peaceful death after a few hours.All of us were around her.

For at least three patients in my town during the Covid pandemic, I had to be instrumental in convincing the bystanders about the need for removing the life supports of their dear ones in the ICUs.

Mrs X, a lady well acquainted with me, suffering from a stage 4 cancer was in the ICU for 2 weeks.When doctors tried to explain facts the bystanders were not convinced and took her to another hospital.There too she had to be in the ICU.The husband and sons of that middle class family were spending lakhs in a futile attempt to save her.They said they expected her to survive.It was a heavy task to convince them and make her free.

The “End of Life Care” policy has been developed by a team of experts at the All India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS).The policy is aimed at providing the option of a dignified death to patients in cases where treatment will not extend their life or its quality. However, it is still a draft yet to be implemented .Several people for whom further treatment is futile are still hooked on to tubes and ventilators instead of being home with their families.

The guidelines allow for withholding or withdrawal of care in patients who are severely dependent on life support, are very old, have multiple co-morbidities, have multiple organ failure, worsening vital signs, are likely to have poor neurological outcome after a cardiac arrest, and also those who are brain dead.

The treating doctor has to decide whether further treatment in a patient is futile, with two other consultants from the same department not directly involved in the treatment of the patient seconding this. Then the family members have to be informed. Communication should include explanation on the terminal nature of illness, short life expectancy, burden versus benefit of aggressive further management, and symptoms expected in last few days or hours and how to manage.

If the patient is competent, the decision must be taken as per his/ her wishes. But by the time they reach this stage, they might have lost the capacity to exercise the judgement.Even if treatment is futile, doctors will not abandon the patients. The aim is to ensure that the patient remains comfortable and pain-free till the end. A palliative care referral will be done for such patients.Such care centres are already receiving many terminally ill patients who scare to go home.

The treatments will be withheld or withdrawn only if the patient or the family members agree.

The AIIMS guidelines go a step ahead of the “Do not attempt Resuscitation” guidelines developed by India’s apex medical research body, the Indian Council of Medical Research (ICMR), which allows physicians to not attempt cardio-pulmonary resuscitation (CPR) in patients with incurable diseases. It, however, does not allow the withholding or withdrawal of active care.

It is high time Euthanasia ( Mercy Killing) is legalised here.
 
DIGNIFIED DEATH
………………………
Patients who have an irreversible medical problem that is totally incompatible with a fairly normal life, are seen to be admitted in the Intensive Care Units and almost invariably connected to a Ventilator to assist in proper breathing so that all the organs are (falsely) rejuvenated.If the heart stops beating ,again a cardiac massage is tried to revive him/her, don’t know for what.And he/she is declared dead after a few days.

Doctors or the patient’s relatives are never to be blamed.A doctor has to try his level best to save his patient but should have the presence of mind to talk to the bystanders about the true state of affairs .Patient’s people too should not compel doctors to proceed with futile attempts at any cost.Communication between the doctor and the patient’s relatives has to be effective enough to prevent unnecessary prolonged and expensive treatment with poor outcome.Relatives may feel less burdened by guilt if Physicians strongly recommend that life support is futile and it can be withdrawn, rather than asking the family to make the decision.

In various intensive care units around 10% patients are put on advanced life support despite there being no chance of them benefiting from the treatment.

I lost my husband, though at his ripe age of 81, very recently.He was a chronic cardiac patient who had undergone a number of risky surgeries .After a surgery for Aneurysm of the Aorta in 2011 he was given a lifetime of just 5 more years but as he followed a strict lifestyle with all health checkups and advices he could make it well for another 6 years.He died of a urinary infection which did not respond to any antibiotics under the sky.He had to be on various antibiotics for long term in his childhood and after his surgeries.As a result his urinary bacteria became resistant to antibiotics.

He had multi-organ failure and was put on ventilator support.His reports were all bad and I , backed by my family,(the patient ie my husband,myself,son and d in law are doctors),requested the doctors to withdraw his life supports.They were hesitant and and were very sincerely around to find ways to save their ex colleague‘s husband. 2 more days passed and they obeyed our request.I would have got him back home, a very rare chance, after a few weeks or months of intensive treatment, in a vegetative state.As septuagenarians I and husband used to discuss about death and both of us were adamant that unnecessary life supports should not prolong our lives.

My 96 yr old Amma called me one late evening,‘you reach here today’.It was just 2 hours drive but I had patients waiting and had a busy surgery schedule the next day.My mom said, in her usual way,‘Are you the only Gynaecologist there?’..On reaching I found that she had a chest pain and was refusing to go to hospital. She had a similar event a few months back.She said,‘they will put me in the ICU and revive me.I have lived my life fully’.After assuring her that she wouldn’t be admitted to the ICU we took her to the hospital.She was given medicines to alleviate the severe pain.She had a peaceful death after a few hours.All of us were around her.

For at least three patients in my town during the Covid pandemic, I had to be instrumental in convincing the bystanders about the need for removing the life supports of their dear ones in the ICUs.

Mrs X, a lady well acquainted with me, suffering from a stage 4 cancer was in the ICU for 2 weeks.When doctors tried to explain facts the bystanders were not convinced and took her to another hospital.There too she had to be in the ICU.The husband and sons of that middle class family were spending lakhs in a futile attempt to save her.They said they expected her to survive.It was a heavy task to convince them and make her free.

The “End of Life Care” policy has been developed by a team of experts at the All India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS).The policy is aimed at providing the option of a dignified death to patients in cases where treatment will not extend their life or its quality. However, it is still a draft yet to be implemented .Several people for whom further treatment is futile are still hooked on to tubes and ventilators instead of being home with their families.

The guidelines allow for withholding or withdrawal of care in patients who are severely dependent on life support, are very old, have multiple co-morbidities, have multiple organ failure, worsening vital signs, are likely to have poor neurological outcome after a cardiac arrest, and also those who are brain dead.

The treating doctor has to decide whether further treatment in a patient is futile, with two other consultants from the same department not directly involved in the treatment of the patient seconding this. Then the family members have to be informed. Communication should include explanation on the terminal nature of illness, short life expectancy, burden versus benefit of aggressive further management, and symptoms expected in last few days or hours and how to manage.

If the patient is competent, the decision must be taken as per his/ her wishes. But by the time they reach this stage, they might have lost the capacity to exercise the judgement.Even if treatment is futile, doctors will not abandon the patients. The aim is to ensure that the patient remains comfortable and pain-free till the end. A palliative care referral will be done for such patients.Such care centres are already receiving many terminally ill patients who scare to go home.

The treatments will be withheld or withdrawn only if the patient or the family members agree.

The AIIMS guidelines go a step ahead of the “Do not attempt Resuscitation” guidelines developed by India’s apex medical research body, the Indian Council of Medical Research (ICMR), which allows physicians to not attempt cardio-pulmonary resuscitation (CPR) in patients with incurable diseases. It, however, does not allow the withholding or withdrawal of active care.

It is high time Euthanasia ( Mercy Killing) is legalised here.
Though you are spot on but at the same time, some patients themselves give clear instructions that no matter what keep them alive...even if they are terminally critical and might lose the ability to give consent for anything.

I know one such person who is in his 90's..just had an intracranial bleed and having a malignancy end stage yet he says he wants to be alive and doesnt mind prolonging his life by whichever method.
Some patients just dont want to die and even though all their parameters should spell death yet they can actually be lucid and decide to live.

Honestly we really cant be " instruments" for deciding life and death for self and others though we might technically be an " instrument".

Its always some higher law that makes us doctors instruments..if a person is no more meant to be alive, somehow we see ourselves suggesting palliative care.
If the patients time is not yet up, we would notice everything aligning itself to keep even the most critical patient alive..though the patient might eventually die but may be the life span needed a few more days to complete its stay in the physical body.

Personally I feel death is just not about the body alone.
We are Mind, Body and Atma.
Atma is eternal, mind is linked to our desires..till the mind is ready, usually death doesnt happen in non violent or accidental deaths.

So the question of Euthanasia...Euthanasia too is part of the higher plan.
We as doctors would be guided to be either a Yama or a Dhanvatari depending on the situation.
At no given time we are the doer.
We only carried out the karmic pattern of the patient.

So should Euthanasia be legalized?
Well..why not?
After all only the patient who has the karmic pattern to die on a certain day would meet death on that day and euthanasia could be just a means of getting the karmic plan carried out.

There is saying that goes..if its not yet the time to die one can still remain alive on a bed of arrows for 40 days..if its the time to die, even a blade of grass can kill us.

But from a medical point of view your post is very logically thought off and considerate with compassion.

My opinion as a doctor, I agree with you but deep inside I know deciding life and death is the action of higher karmic mechanics.
 
Can you specify what type of mental suffering?
Trying desperately to do harm to others but not succeeding and living in constant fear. Just kidding.

I mean chronic mental suffering. May be disease that is incurable and affecting mainly the mind.
 
Though you are spot on but at the same time, some patients themselves give clear instructions that no matter what keep them alive...even if they are terminally critical and might lose the ability to give consent for anything.

I know one such person who is in his 90's..just had an intracranial bleed and having a malignancy end stage yet he says he wants to be alive and doesnt mind prolonging his life by whichever method.
Some patients just dont want to die and even though all their parameters should spell death yet they can actually be lucid and decide to live.

Honestly we really cant be " instruments" for deciding life and death for self and others though we might technically be an " instrument".

Its always some higher law that makes us doctors instruments..if a person is no more meant to be alive, somehow we see ourselves suggesting palliative care.
If the patients time is not yet up, we would notice everything aligning itself to keep even the most critical patient alive..though the patient might eventually die but may be the life span needed a few more days to complete its stay in the physical body.

Personally I feel death is just not about the body alone.
We are Mind, Body and Atma.
Atma is eternal, mind is linked to our desires..till the mind is ready, usually death doesnt happen in non violent or accidental deaths.

So the question of Euthanasia...Euthanasia too is part of the higher plan.
We as doctors would be guided to be either a Yama or a Dhanvatari depending on the situation.
At no given time we are the doer.
We only carried out the karmic pattern of the patient.

So should Euthanasia be legalized?
Well..why not?
After all only the patient who has the karmic pattern to die on a certain day would meet death on that day and euthanasia could be just a means of getting the karmic plan carried out.

There is saying that goes..if its not yet the time to die one can still remain alive on a bed of arrows for 40 days..if its the time to die, even a blade of grass can kill us.

But from a medical point of view your post is very logically thought off and considerate with compassion.

My opinion as a doctor, I agree with you but deep inside I know deciding life and death is the action of higher karmic mechanics.
Thanks doctor.Sure if the patient himself/ herself or the bystanders wish to try a revival they need not be deprived of life supports.Euthanesia is never deep-rooted in my mind and I too believe we have no right to take away lives at all.But seeing patients struggling and suffering in vain,in great pain, and bystanders finding it difficult to pay for unnecessary and futile life supports, make me to think that way too.
 
Trying desperately to do harm to others but not succeeding and living in constant fear. Just kidding.

I mean chronic mental suffering. May be disease that is incurable and affecting mainly the mind.
I cant type any type of answer here.
I have no idea who might read the answer.
A person with severe mental ailments have different perception of reality.
They might not know the difference between Euthanasia and Suicide.
 
Hi

my daughter is USMD in USA.....MD IN ANESTHIALOGY....i discuss life and death in medical/philosophical

version....she says .....before surgery or after surgery....life is death and survive....in our vedic system...

life is divided into 4 ways...brahmacharyam/gruhastam/vanaprastham/sanyasam....if we practice in real life.....

life and death no difference...
 
There is no death of soul. That's what Krishna says in Gita. He says kill the body. It is for the elevation of soul only.

Philosophy aside, euthanasia is a pragmatic and sensible solution to those irreversibly physically or mentally suffering.
 
There is no death of soul. That's what Krishna says in Gita. He says kill the body. It is for the elevation of soul only.

Philosophy aside, euthanasia is a pragmatic and sensible solution to those irreversibly physically or mentally suffering.
Euthanasia as we all know is mercy ‘ killing’.Freeing a person, who has an irreversible serious illness,from unnecessary life supports that give more torture that way to him and bystanders ,is very essential.This can be called Passive Euthanasia.
 
Sometimes the profession itself may become a torture for some. My focus is more on mental suffering which leads to a different situation being suicide. They are often exploited by vested interests though the money that they get is pittance. They are also humiliated day in and day out in front of everybody.

Should the mentally suffering people with irreversible condition also be euthanized though I am not talking of the above category of people but in general?
 
I would like to know the views of Doctors here..... as to ....how about deliberate termination of human pregnancy...abortion??
 
I would like to know the views of Doctors here..... as to ....how about deliberate termination of human pregnancy...abortion??
In Malaysia, its totally illegal and not allowed under any circumstances unless the pregnancy is endangering the life of the mother.

Any deliberate termination of a pregnancy which is not endangering the mother's life is considered a criminal offence.

From my personal view : No pregnancy should be terminated unless the mother's life is in danger.
 
Sometimes the profession itself may become a torture for some. My focus is more on mental suffering which leads to a different situation being suicide. They are often exploited by vested interests though the money that they get is pittance. They are also humiliated day in and day out in front of everybody.

Should the mentally suffering people with irreversible condition also be euthanized though I am not talking of the above category of people but in general?
No..doctors dont torture their patients.
In each profession there are bound to be black sheeps but majority of doctors are always thinking of the welfare of their patients.

A lot of treatment for mental illnessess are mindfulness based therapy too these days and not just entirely about medication.

No doctor humiliates any patient who is mentally ill.
Society might humiliate.
Even a lot of Gurujis or Swamijis or Yoga Gurus themselves are so ill informed about mental illness and always calling it weakness, too many desires..worldly etc.

A cancer patient gets a lot of sympathy from people but a person suffering from depression is labled attention seeker..weakminded..if they commit suicide they are called selfish...its really sad how ill informed society is.

Honestly the problem is partly celebrities jump into the bandwagon saying they had depression and sort of making it sound like a rich man's disease..this is where people start to think..why on earth is a celebrity depressed when they have everything?

Well anyone can be depressed but its better that any awareness programme is lead by the Health Ministry and not put any celebrity as the icon.
They should have real life cases from each level of life from the poorest to the richest to bring about true awareness.

Euthanasia is usually not the option for mental disease as for now.
 
In Malaysia, its totally illegal and not allowed under any circumstances unless the pregnancy is endangering the life of the mother.

Any deliberate termination of a pregnancy which is not endangering the mother's life is considered a criminal offence.

From my personal view : No pregnancy should be terminated unless the mother's life is in danger.
According to me,in spite of myself being a Gynaecologist of nearly 5 decades of experience,we the human beings,have no right to terminate lives.Srushti.Sthithi and Samhaara are God's own decisions.Sure we are bound to terminate a few pregnancies to save the mothers.
Abortion laws are very liberal in India.Every pregnant lady can request an abortion nowadays.Some delicate situations arise wherein the baby inside the mother's womb is detected to be abnormal.Gynaecs like me choose the option to refer them to our colleagues who have no hesitation to do the job.They can never be blamed also.
we have excellent and safe temporary/permanent birth control techniques.To avoid pregnancies is a great option against 'killing' the tender babies.
 
.Srushti.Sthithi and Samhaara are God's own decisions.Sure we are bound to terminate a few pregnancies to save the mothers.
While I agree on this, I like to point out that there are cases where capital punishment warded for the most heinous and grievous crimes ...

I thank the thread opener Doctor and Malaysian Doctor for their responses.

I read the following quote somewhere.

“How come when it’s us, it’s an abortion, and when it’s a chicken, it’s an omelette?”
George Carlin

Now, I don’t want to derail this thread, but do have a query as to…..leave alone the killing of babies through the process of termination of pregnancy, but this is about the mothers…dying everyday

Some of the reports cite that nearly eight women a day are estimated to die in India as a result of botched abortions according to the Unite Nations Population Fund. UNFPA.

What does this speak about…..??

It is added that some thousands of women die of unsafe abortion annually, making it one of the leading causes of maternal mortality. Of course, to some extent it may be also due to poor post-abortion care services.

Reports say that according to the World Health Organization (WHO), every eight minutes a woman in a developing nation will die of complications arising from an unsafe abortion. An unsafe abortion is defined as “a procedure for terminating an unintended pregnancy carried out either by persons lacking the necessary skills or in an environment that does not conform to minimal medical standards, or both”.

Trained Surgeons/Medical practitioners are supposed to implement the Medical Termination of Pregnancy (MTP) Act and the subsequent Medical Termination of Pregnancy Regulations, etc

Despite the awareness created and more education about the MTP Act by the respective Government Authorities, this type of abortions occurs and attended with the adhering existing Rules and regulations of the land​

Hope the society will continue to advocate for safe abortion and ensure good health and well-being of women.
 
While I agree on this, I like to point out that there are cases where capital punishment warded for the most heinous and grievous crimes ...

I thank the thread opener Doctor and Malaysian Doctor for their responses.

I read the following quote somewhere.

“How come when it’s us, it’s an abortion, and when it’s a chicken, it’s an omelette?”
George Carlin

Now, I don’t want to derail this thread, but do have a query as to…..leave alone the killing of babies through the process of termination of pregnancy, but this is about the mothers…dying everyday

Some of the reports cite that nearly eight women a day are estimated to die in India as a result of botched abortions according to the Unite Nations Population Fund. UNFPA.

What does this speak about…..??

It is added that some thousands of women die of unsafe abortion annually, making it one of the leading causes of maternal mortality. Of course, to some extent it may be also due to poor post-abortion care services.

Reports say that according to the World Health Organization (WHO), every eight minutes a woman in a developing nation will die of complications arising from an unsafe abortion. An unsafe abortion is defined as “a procedure for terminating an unintended pregnancy carried out either by persons lacking the necessary skills or in an environment that does not conform to minimal medical standards, or both”.

Trained Surgeons/Medical practitioners are supposed to implement the Medical Termination of Pregnancy (MTP) Act and the subsequent Medical Termination of Pregnancy Regulations, etc

Despite the awareness created and more education about the MTP Act by the respective Government Authorities, this type of abortions occurs and attended with the adhering existing Rules and regulations of the land​

Hope the society will continue to advocate for safe abortion and ensure good health and well-being of women.
Abortions done by qualified,trained and experienced hands never carry health or life risks.In this 21st century educated community even go to quacks for abortions in a secret way and land in trouble.Though I’m a staunch opposer of deliberate abortions I’ve had enough chances for treating ladies with minor and major complications following illegal abortions.Many could be saved but many young ladies admitted with severe sepsis,shock and multi-organ failure succumbed to death..a distressing,disturbing and disgusting situation..Many live with lifelong complications.
I RAISE ONLY ONE SLOGAN ALWAYS..NEVER GO IN FOR ABORTIONS ,OPT FOR TEMPORARY OR PERMANENT BIRTH CONTROL MEASURES INSTEAD.
 
I might be interested in sravna's thoughts here... I myself am mentally ill with schizophrenia. And I know that beyond a point of age.. especially in India there are no proper care facilities for schizophrenic people. I hope they legalize euthanasia in the next 10 years to help people like me find peace after a lifetime of suffering from delusions, mental agony and medicines side effects.
 
I might be interested in sravna's thoughts here... I myself am mentally ill with schizophrenia. And I know that beyond a point of age.. especially in India there are no proper care facilities for schizophrenic people. I hope they legalize euthanasia in the next 10 years to help people like me find peace after a lifetime of suffering from delusions, mental agony and medicines side effects.
Dear Krishnan,

Would you be interested in spiritual healing? I think I can help you. My email id: [email protected]

whatsapp: 9150443058

Regards
 
Dear sravna,

Thank you for your kind invite. But I must aver the following as a western educated graduate engineer.

when choosing between western medicine and traditional medicine, the most blatant advocate for sticking to western medicine is statistics. Every western pattern of medicine is statistically proven that if step 1,2 and 3 are followed with medicines a,b and c 98 percent out of a million trials, the expected outcome is this. But in traditional medicine, it is unable to boast this kind of backing wherein it has been tested over a million times and the results are repetitive and conclusive with very rare deviation from the expected outcome of cure or side effects.

Therefore I am unable to take up your offer as I do not know what the various outcomes of following your procedure might be. Given the serious nature of schizophrenia, this further compels me to not take any step which does not have a clear and defined result.

I hope you understand.

Krishnan
 
Like Renuka said, it has to be case based and one solution may not fit all. Then there are religious beliefs. I still believe that suicided is immoral.
But i firmly believe that we must have a signed “End of Life Care” document.
Switzerland has taken a different step.

Active euthanasia is illegal in Switzerland (administration by a third-party), but supplying the means for dying is legal (assisted suicide), as long as the action which directly causes death is performed by the one wishing to die. Assisted suicide in the country has been legal since 1941, and Switzerland was the first country in the world to permit any kind of assisted dying. In 2014, a total of 752 assisted suicides were performed (330 men, 422 women), compared to 1,029 non-assisted suicides (754 men, 275 women); most of the assisted suicides concerned elderly people suffering from a terminal disease. In what critics have termed suicide tourism, Swiss euthanasia organisations have been widely used by foreigners. As of 2008, German citizens were 60 percent of the total number of suicides assisted by the organisation Dignitas.


Abortion is a different matter all together. I believe that it is up to the mother and law of the land. A mother has to think of not only the birth of child but life long support and nurturing of that womb in the real world. Other than her and may be other care givers (if there is one) it is no one else's issue. We the bystanders should have no role in the process of abortion.
 
Dear sravna,

Thank you for your kind invite. But I must aver the following as a western educated graduate engineer.

when choosing between western medicine and traditional medicine, the most blatant advocate for sticking to western medicine is statistics. Every western pattern of medicine is statistically proven that if step 1,2 and 3 are followed with medicines a,b and c 98 percent out of a million trials, the expected outcome is this. But in traditional medicine, it is unable to boast this kind of backing wherein it has been tested over a million times and the results are repetitive and conclusive with very rare deviation from the expected outcome of cure or side effects.

Therefore I am unable to take up your offer as I do not know what the various outcomes of following your procedure might be. Given the serious nature of schizophrenia, this further compels me to not take any step which does not have a clear and defined result.

I hope you understand.

Krishnan
Yes Krishnan I understand
 

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