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The case of Brahmin Identity

cs19844

New member
The case of Brahmin Identity

Definition of 'Identity' - It is a sense of belonging to a particular community where every one in that community will have inherent attachment among themselves.

Identity is a survival thing for any human being, no one in this world live without an identity. I repeat no one really leads an identity-less life ANYWHERE in the world. The sense of brahmin identity is very strong even today and it will stay strong forever. You must have been misled from the fact that many don't even remember Gayathri Japam, and from some of the cases of brahmin men who are regular smokers/drinkers and brahmin women who are also regular drinkers in India. It is not required for everyone to do sandhyavandhanam everyday and in fact it is not even necessary to follow hindu religion. Despite of all this, brahmin identity will sustain. Identity will stay strong despite of diverse lifestyles. The idea of identity is an important ingredient for every human being. No one can survive without that. A person moves away from a particular identity only if he/she has a strong inclination for a different identity. It is always either a person belonging to one identity or a different identity and never the case of no identity. Many will say blindly that brahmin identity is dying, but if you observe closely that no single person will say he/she have a strong inclination to move to a different community or there is no one who will say I don't belong to the community. On the contrary, everyone has a strong desire for a coordinated effort for the cause of brahmin identity but they are unable to do it because of survival needs and practical concerns. As long as you are in India you are safe without much consideration for the same because your identity is not disturbed. That's why most of the brahmins take the presence of strong identity for granted and focus only on self growth without any awareness of the same which is totally justified.

The case of US migration.

As you are all aware from my earlier posts that there is no concept of "arranged marriage" among second generation indians in US, mostly dating or live-in relationships, at least they choose their boyfriend or girlfriend who is very unlikely to be a brahmin. As a result the second generation move away from brahmin identity and third generation will not know of their identity at all. The third generation cannot call themselves of 'Indian' identity mainly for the reason that they are not compatible with other indians who are mostly second generation or first generation. But as every human has a need for identity the third generation will assume the identity of 'Blacks' mainly for the reason that they are more american. In reality, 'Blacks' are not really an identity in US. They are a general group who can be termed as people of African descent. But there are millions of groups among themselves and you can not expect a strong attachment but still they assume a superficial identity in US for the sake of survival.

American conservatives (caucasians / whites) have a strong sense of "independent identity in US" without any clear set of common practices. On one side you will find women who bare it all and the other side with places of strict dress codes, they maintain a strong identity with diverse lifestyles. Whereas the people of 'Blacks', which include third generation indians, always maintain a low-profile all their life because of without a strong sense of identity who cannot stand against american conservatives with strong identity.

Forever.
 
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prasad1

Well-known member
Sir,
How is this thread any different than your other thread:


The answers in that thread are fitting replies to your this thread.
So ask the moderator to combine the two threads.
 

cs19844

New member
No sir. This is definitely different. It is completely a different way to look at seemingly similar situation.
 

GNANA SUNYAM

Active member
Dear cs19844,

There was a time when our religion, caste, nationality defined our identity. But times have changed and many things have changed with times. Hence the elements that define, constitute and make up for our identity have also changed. From hindus/muslims/christians and also from indians/british/american/german/french etc we moved over to engineers/doctors/lawyers and from there on to introverts/extroverts/ambiverts/ etc etc. Now identity is an even more complicated matter. There are many who do not want any named or branded identity. Their attitude is 'let me be myself, who I am. Please do not brand me or give me some nomenclature'.
 

GNANA SUNYAM

Active member
Dear cs19844,

those who are in the teens and those who are in their early 20s and also those in late 20s in current times, want to break out of all shells/cocoons which have been binding them. They want to break out of their conditioned/programmed mind/thinking. they want to do what pleases them without harming others. Seems to be a welcome change in mindset and mentality of people.
 

GNANA SUNYAM

Active member
Dear cs19844,

please read jiddu krishnamurti's views on identity. i trust it will be very revealing to you and liberating.
 

cs19844

New member
Dear cs19844,

There was a time when our religion, caste, nationality defined our identity. But times have changed and many things have changed with times. Hence the elements that define, constitute and make up for our identity have also changed. From hindus/muslims/christians and also from indians/british/american/german/french etc we moved over to engineers/doctors/lawyers and from there on to introverts/extroverts/ambiverts/ etc etc. Now identity is an even more complicated matter. There are many who do not want any named or branded identity. Their attitude is 'let me be myself, who I am. Please do not brand me or give me some nomenclature'.
Sir, Everyone will be on himself/herself. There is no question about it. But at the same time everyone belong to some identity and no one will EVER say to I do not belong to any identity even though he is a richest man on earth. This is because one cannot survive without identity. You are not understanding the idea of 'identity'. Please re-read my original post fully. I have given the definition of identity. Everyone will be independent and will not be bounded by any restrictions. There will be no requirement to stick particular ritual or practices, but everyone has a need of belonging to a community and have inherent attachment with their community members. this is not the case with brahmins alone, it is the case with everyone in the world.
 

Brahmanyan

Well-known member
Brahmin is part of Varna Ashrama devised to serve a particular duty in the society. When we do not follow that duty, Caste has no relevance.

I should admit I had woven around me a lot of sectarian and religious restrictions without my knowledge, or understanding mostly by the influence of the society in which I am born and brought up. When I grew up slowly it dawned on me how stupid I am in thinking that I am different from others. By birth all living beings are same. Creator never differentiated the creation as high or low. I delved into scriptures and writings to find an answer as to "the purpose of my birth". I couldn't get a convincing answer.

Then I threw out the blinkers that I had put around my view and came out of the cucoon that I had woven around me in the name of Nation,Religion, Caste, Language, high and low, to see the real purpose of my birth in this world. The purpose is nothing. The whole thing is a "Passing Show", in which I am a pawn. I am no different from any other living being. All things that happen from the moment I am formed in my mother's womb, till my demise is planned by nature, the creator. All that I pass through just happens. As the learnered call, it is illusion . Sages call it
"Maya".

आहार निद्रा भय मैथुनं च सामान्यमेतत् पशुभिर्नराणाम् ।
धर्मो हि तेषामधिको विशेष: धर्मेण हीनाः पशुभिः समानाः ॥

Eating, sleep, fear and Copulation. these habits are common between human beings and animals. It is Dharma ( Here Dharma Represent Knowledge, not different religion / Right conduct) which is important quality of human beings, without which he is same as an animal.

We can lead a life of Good Human-being by "Compassion and love. " All things essential for our living given by Creator are free to be shared. Wealth and knowledge are given to share with all living beings. Otherwise they are of no use.

As the time passes changes will happen. Nothing can stop this. There is no use of lamenting over the past.

It was the Poet "Omar Khayyám" who said.
The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 
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GNANA SUNYAM

Active member
Sir, Everyone will be on himself/herself. There is no question about it. But at the same time everyone belong to some identity and no one will EVER say to I do not belong to any identity even though he is a richest man on earth. This is because one cannot survive without identity. You are not understanding the idea of 'identity'. Please re-read my original post fully. I have given the definition of identity. Everyone will be independent and will not be bounded by any restrictions. There will be no requirement to stick particular ritual or practices, but everyone has a need of belonging to a community and have inherent attachment with their community members. this is not the case with brahmins alone, it is the case with everyone in the world.
sir,

I don't disagree nor differ with you on your definition of identity. but your definition is obsolete, outdated and no longer holds any relevance. please remember we are now in 21st century. perhaps you were born during the 60s or 70s.

when you say brahmin identitiy, even within brahmins there are numerous divisions, more than 1000 and each have their own unique practises, beliefs, values etc which have changed and are dynamic.

the elements which uniquely identified each division (or community as you refer it) are extinct and do not exist any longer.

individuals in every division among brahmins have mingled with others and have absorbed/incorporated new elements which project as their identity.

those born during 80s or 90s have realized they can no longer be rigid but have to be flexible to survive. they can no longer be stubbornly adamantly hold on to outdated customs/traditions and hence have mingled with the mainstream. this is also the case with every community of yester-century.

on numerous occasions this subject has been discussed in numerous threads under various titles in this forum yet never could a conclusion be arrived at. there were only heated exchanges, parading of tempers and all sort of emotional outbursts, exposing our weaknesses.

change is inevitable and we need to adjust ourselves with change. this does not mean compromise. this is being wise, to be abreast with times. we are in no way similar to our forefathers many centuries ago.

we are no longer living in agraharams. we cannot afford to live isolated any longer.

only in towns in and around trichy you will find some agraharams struggling to survive.

I trust your eyes have been opened a little about identity.
 

cs19844

New member
sir,

I don't disagree nor differ with you on your definition of identity. but your definition is obsolete, outdated and no longer holds any relevance. please remember we are now in 21st century. perhaps you were born during the 60s or 70s.

when you say brahmin identitiy, even within brahmins there are numerous divisions, more than 1000 and each have their own unique practises, beliefs, values etc which have changed and are dynamic.

the elements which uniquely identified each division (or community as you refer it) are extinct and do not exist any longer.

individuals in every division among brahmins have mingled with others and have absorbed/incorporated new elements which project as their identity.

those born during 80s or 90s have realized they can no longer be rigid but have to be flexible to survive. they can no longer be stubbornly adamantly hold on to outdated customs/traditions and hence have mingled with the mainstream. this is also the case with every community of yester-century.

on numerous occasions this subject has been discussed in numerous threads under various titles in this forum yet never could a conclusion be arrived at. there were only heated exchanges, parading of tempers and all sort of emotional outbursts, exposing our weaknesses.

change is inevitable and we need to adjust ourselves with change. this does not mean compromise. this is being wise, to be abreast with times. we are in no way similar to our forefathers many centuries ago.

we are no longer living in agraharams. we cannot afford to live isolated any longer.

only in towns in and around trichy you will find some agraharams struggling to survive.

I trust your eyes have been opened a little about identity.
Sir, my point is no one can live without the sense of identity. It is not possible to survive.
 

prasad1

Well-known member
Sir, my point is no one can live without the sense of identity. It is not possible to survive.
You are not born with an IDENTITY.
You create your identity as you grow up.
Identical twin brothers create their separate IDENTITY.
So you can not be born with "IDENTITY", so it is all created.


American conservatives (Caucasians / whites) have a strong sense of "independent identity in US" without any clear set of common practices.
You see Caucasian/White as monolithic Identity, that is complete ignorance. No two individual has the same identity.

Americans/ Europeans/ Australian, in general, are independent, irrespective of ethnic origin.

Unless you have a self-identity and a little bit of ego, one can not be successful in a material world.
If you are satisfied with being part of the crowd, then you are just that.
If you are good enough to sing solo you should be satisfied with Kumbhal lo da Govinda.

You are talking about arranged marriage among 1st generation Indian Americans, have you lived in Major Cities of India, say Delhi or Mumbai? do you know of love marriages, living together before marriages, or child being born outside of marriages, divorces are pretty common?

I posted in your other thread a similar message.
I am sorry to say that there is a disconnect between your thinking and reality on the ground.

Either educate yourself or you are going to be sorry.
 
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GNANA SUNYAM

Active member
Sir, my point is no one can live without the sense of identity. It is not possible to survive.
you seem to be redefining identity. my comments were in response to your statements about 'brahmin identity'. if you were to refer to identity in general, then every individual indeed has his/her own character traits, personality traits, beliefs, disbeliefs, likes and dislikes, intelligent quotient and emotional quotient etc etc which uniquely identify that individual.

there were times when people belonging to named communities had common character traits, attitudes, perceptions which uniquely identified them as belonging to that community. this again was mechanically imposed on them and their minds programmed and conditioned to conduct/act/behave in a particular way influenced by fellow members of their community. but times and circumstances have had impact on them and common traits which identified/projected individuals as belonging to any named community disappeared. identities based on communities have disappeared. even communities of yester-centuries are gradually disappearing. we are moving towards global union. inter-religious, inter-caste, inter-community marriages have become common. in a few decades named communities of present times will become things of the past.

for instance you cannot conclude a vegetarian as brahmin nor vice versa. in a few years from now many would not know to which named community they or their forefathers belonged. neither you nor I can do anything to counter this change, a better change for that matter.
 

cs19844

New member
Let me be very clear, no one in US live an identity-less life. Especially American Conservative are with strong sense of identity. Period.
 
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prasad1

Well-known member
Let me be very clear, no one in US live an identity-less life. Especially American Conservative are with strong sense of identity. Period.
I say period, that statement should have some substance that is indisputable.

Does Laura Ingram a staunch American conservative have the same identity as Rush Limbaugh another staunch conservative? Not at all.
 

Brahmanyan

Well-known member
I say period, that statement should have some substance that is indisputable.

Does Laura Ingram a staunch American conservative have the same identity as Rush Limbaugh another staunch conservative? Not at all.
Dear Sri Prasad,
In a lighter vein I find the entire discussion seems to have turned for US based Tamil Brahmins. What you have written is "Chinese " for me.
Hope to read the translation to understand the same.
Regards,
Brahmanyan
Bangalore.
 
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