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Suicide..wrong ???

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
I started this thread just to highlight a verse from the Bhagavan Ramana Maharishi thread.
I didn't want to spoil the sanctity of the thread hence I felt its better I write here.

This was pasted in that thread:
Suicide:

Bhagavan: Killing the innocent body is certainly wrong. Suicide must be committed on the mind, where the suffering is deposited, and not on the body, which is insentient and feels nothing. The mind is the real culprit, being the creator of the anguish which tempts to suicide, but by an error of judgement, the innocent, insentient body is punished for it.

-- S.S. Cohen


Firstly whatever I am writing is in NO way to find fault or disrespect Bhagawan Ramana Maharishi.
I just wish to highlight certain points.

Firstly, is suicide wrong?

To answer this question let's rephrase it in several ways.

Is Diabetes wrong?
Is Covid 19 wrong?
Is Cancer wrong?


Now let's rephrase this too:

Killing the innocent body with high levels of blood sugar is certainly wrong. Restrain must be committed on the mind, where the suffering of high levels of blood sugar is deposited, and not on the body, which is insentient and feels nothing. The mind is the real culprit, being the creator of the anguish which tempts to one to over indulge and be inactive, high levels of blood sugar is but by an error of judgment, the innocent, insentient body is punished for it.


Does it make sense?
Well,,,Yes and No.
Yes in the sense that in Type 2 Diabetes the mind can actually be the real culprit which tempts us to eat and not stick to healthy life style practices.
No in the sense that some do have a genetic predisposition and certainly the body suffers effect of hyperglycemia and the cascade of complications start.
So are we suffering? Yes!
The mind does identify with what the body undergoes in most of us mortals.


Now let's go back to suicide.
We have to understand that HEALTHY minds DO NOT commit suicide for the heck of it.
The human body is designed to survive at any cost.
Suicide too takes a lot of strength to execute.It isn't easy to even think of suicide.

What are the causes of suicide?

1)Mental disorders eg schizophrenia,
2)Major depression and Subclinical Depression.
3)Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome
4)Survivor's Guilt
5)Severe forms of physical/mental abuse
6)Severe financial loss/broken hearted/divorce/death of loved ones



In cases of uncontrolled Diabetes at times a person gets gangrene of the lower limb which leads to amputation of the limb.
Why? Because there is compromise in the blood supply besides infection.

In case of suicide there is "gangrene" of the mind where there is compromise in rational thoughts.

Now, is the mind the culprit in suicide?

Well, the mind is the culprit for our very existence itself.
That is what Lord Buddha called Dukha(sorrow).
The suffering we experience in life is because the mind chooses to identify with it and the body being the innocent one here suffers.
This is what "Who am I " is all about?
If one is the Mind..then we are all in Bhava Sagara(Ocean of existence)

So why single out suicide alone saying that its wrong when everything else too is wrong?
Our whole existence is an Error of Judgment hence it generates Karma.
The reason we are here itself is because of Error of Judgment by our minds.

So what next?
What to do about suicide?

Well, we have to understand that suicide is the complication of mental disorders/stress/trauma/abuse/failure etc.

Then we should take steps to address it by
1)Medication
2)Psychotherapy
3)Mindfulness practices
4)Social support


Many Guruji's do not address suicide in the correct light.
Some even label it as weakness or selfishness or excessive desires.
Its nothing like that.

We have to understand ONLY GOD is all knowing.
All of us only have a limited perception not because we are ignorant but because we come to this world with what we are allowed to access.
This is the reason why none of the "realized souls" know the cure of Covid 19.
Not becos they are ignorant but because finding the cure if NOT their Dharma hence they wont have access to it.

Mental disorders get very little recognition in the spiritual circle and many people are told "to snap out of it"
Imagine we tell a Covid 19 patient on life support "hey! Snap out of it"!
It's that insensitive and technically inaccurate too.

Summary:

A)Our very existence is an Error of Judgment which generates Karma for repeated cycle of birth and death.

B)Suicide is a disease which can be prevented by medication/therapy and NOT judgment.
 
OP
renuka

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
This is a different topic.
I am hijacking my own thread.

Most of us have faith in our chosen Gurus.
That comes naturally and more so in those who are part of the Guru- Shishya Parampara.

I know a person who is learned in Sanskrit yet he recites a particular Shiva Gayatri inaccurately.

He recites it as:
tanno Shivah pracodayat

Per Sandhi rules of Sanskrit it should be
tannash shivah pracodayat

Its a very common mistake to recite Tanno for everything.

So when I asked him why he chooses to recite it Tanno when its not grammatically correct..his reply was
" My Guru taught me so..even though I know grammatically you are right but I have faith in my Guru that he cant be wrong"

Ok..I didnt say anything after that cos I wont comment on Guru bhakti.

Then another Brahmin priest I know in Msia..he recites
Ya Devi Sarvabhuthesu...Vishnumayi samsthita
Namas tastai namas tastai namas tastai namo namah.


Note* for feminine its namas TASYAI and not TASTAI.

again he replied that his guru taught him so.

Do we have to fear making a correction if a Guru has made a minor grammar mistake?
Gurus are human too isnt it?
Making a mistake doesnt dethrone a Guru.
Anyone can make a mistake.
Jnaana is an experience rather than bookish knowledge.

A Guru would be correct in Jnana but he could still make a minor mistake in grammar or a scientific or medical fact.

We should not feel afraid to realize that only God is All knowing and a Guru might actually be happy that his worth while shishya could make some changes.

Shams of Tabriz was the Guru of Rumi.
Shams was Jnana personified and he just preached and it was Rumi who was the formally educated one who penned down the Jnana of Shams and became a brilliant poet himself.
Shams himself used to say that he cant match Rumi in worldly knowledge and Rumi used to say he cant match Shams in Divine knowledge.

So what is there to fear if a Guru made an error in grammar or worldly knowledge?
 
Last edited:

ekaputra

Active member
As some diseases (like cancer) have been mentioned in the first post, I am asking this question.

A person suffers unbearably from cancer (advanced stage) or some serious kidney problem and there is no hope of cure. This person has led a reasonably disciplined life and it cannot be even said that he has brought it on himself.

The person feels that his family is only wasting money on his treatment and this money could be instead saved for them. Is it wrong for the person to take his own life if euthanasia is deemed illegal?
 
OP
renuka

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
As some diseases (like cancer) have been mentioned in the first post, I am asking this question.

A person suffers unbearably from cancer (advanced stage) or some serious kidney problem and there is no hope of cure. This person has led a reasonably disciplined life and it cannot be even said that he has brought it on himself.

The person feels that his family is only wasting money on his treatment and this money could be instead saved for them. Is it wrong for the person to take his own life if euthanasia is deemed illegal?
Dear Sir,
In my country euthanasia is illegal.
So it wont be recommended to a patient.

In some countries its allowed ..so its legally sound in those cases.

In cases of End stage renal failure, dialysis is the mode of treatment and in some cases a renal transplant is advocated.

In terminal cancer cases there can be a lot of pain and patients at times wish they die fast cos it can be hard to bear.
Treatment options are mainly morphine for pain relief.

If a country allows euthanasia then the patient is the best judge.
I wouldnt say its wrong or right in such cases cos suffering is real..its not easy for the mind not to identify with pain.
 

KRS

Well-known member
Srimathi Dr. Renuka Ji,

I thought a lot about whether to respond to your queries in this thread. Then, probably out of my own ignorance I am posting this. My thoughts:

1. I have seen people committing suicide for all sorts of reasons. I worked for a company, when the CEO conveniently committed suicide just a day before he was to be sentenced, thereby ensuring that his wife’s wealth is secured.

2. I never know the pain one experiences through disease that drives one to suicide.

3. I do not know whether suicide is wrong, apart from my Guru’s teaching. And Sri Iyest Sir illuminated the meaning of that statement beautifully.

4. My position on this is very simple. As you did not have any choice to be born in terms of this world’s logic, you do not have any freedom to take your own life, with exceptions as above noted.

5.. Final question is, is it wrong, in terms of world morality. I think it is definitely wrong if one leaves behind loved ones’ as survivors. Because you affect their lives forever and no one has the right to do that. IMHO.
 
OP
renuka

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Srimathi Dr. Renuka Ji,

I thought a lot about whether to respond to your queries in this thread. Then, probably out of my own ignorance I am posting this. My thoughts:

1. I have seen people committing suicide for all sorts of reasons. I worked for a company, when the CEO conveniently committed suicide just a day before he was to be sentenced, thereby ensuring that his wife’s wealth is secured.

2. I never know the pain one experiences through disease that drives one to suicide.

3. I do not know whether suicide is wrong, apart from my Guru’s teaching. And Sri Iyest Sir illuminated the meaning of that statement beautifully.

4. My position on this is very simple. As you did not have any choice to be born in terms of this world’s logic, you do not have any freedom to take your own life, with exceptions as above noted.

5.. Final question is, is it wrong, in terms of world morality. I think it is definitely wrong if one leaves behind loved ones’ as survivors. Because you affect their lives forever and no one has the right to do that. IMHO.
Dear KRS ji,

I respect your opinion but if one understands the mind of those who are suicidal,then we would know that in their minds the thoughts of dying dominates their mind and the thoughts of loved ones hardly exists..not becos its morally wrong but becos that is the pathology.
Btw we are all born becos of our Karmic pattern which is a " choice" created by our own past actions.




I would like to paste a Q & A here..going by the information conveyed here..everything is predetermined and nothing moves without God's will..so is suicide alone not in the predetermined scenario?


Questioner: “Are only important events in a man’s life, such as his main occupation or profession, predetermined, or are trifling acts in his life, such as taking a cup of water or moving from one place in the room to another, also predetermined?”

Ramana Maharshi: Yes, everything is predetermined.

Questioner: Then what responsibility, what free will has man?

Ramana Maharshi: What for then does the body come into existence? It is designed for doing the various things marked out for execution in this life. The whole programme is chalked out. “Not an atom moves except by His Will” expresses the same truth, whether you say “Does not move except by His Will” or “Does not move except by karma”. As for freedom for man, he is always free not to identify himself with the body and not to be affected by the pleasures or pains consequent on the body’s activities.



 
Last edited:

KRS

Well-known member
Dear KRS ji,

I respect your opinion but if one understands the mind of those who are suicidal,then we would know that in their minds the thoughts of dying dominates their mind and the thoughts of loved ones hardly exists..not becos its morally wrong but becos that is the pathology.
Btw we are all born becos of our Karmic pattern which is a " choice" created by our own past actions.




I would like to paste a Q & A here..going by the information conveyed here..everything is predetermined and nothing moves without God's will..so is suicide alone not in the predetermined scenario?


Questioner: “Are only important events in a man’s life, such as his main occupation or profession, predetermined, or are trifling acts in his life, such as taking a cup of water or moving from one place in the room to another, also predetermined?”

Ramana Maharshi: Yes, everything is predetermined.

Questioner: Then what responsibility, what free will has man?

Ramana Maharshi: What for then does the body come into existence? It is designed for doing the various things marked out for execution in this life. The whole programme is chalked out. “Not an atom moves except by His Will” expresses the same truth, whether you say “Does not move except by His Will” or “Does not move except by karma”. As for freedom for man, he is always free not to identify himself with the body and not to be affected by the pleasures or pains consequent on the body’s activities.



Srimathi Dr. Renuka Ji,

As I have said, I hesitated to post a response before, exactly for finding myself in this position.

Please forgive me, but I do not possess the required medical knowledge nor the detailed knowledge of Vedanta. I ventured an answer to your question based on my concept of ahimsa. Beyond that I have no answers to your question.

I definitely do not have any facility to interpret Bhagawan’s words, in what context they were uttered. I am so close to him and his words to give you answers that would satisfy your inquiry.

Besides, I have no qualification to comment on my Guru’s words, except to post them for others to read and see whether they resonate with them.

Thanks.
 

Iyest

Active member
I definitely do not have any facility to interpret Bhagawan’s words, in what context they were uttered. I am so close to him and his words to give you answers that would satisfy your inquiry.

Besides, I have no qualification to comment on my Guru’s words, except to post them for others to read and see whether they resonate with them.

Thanks.

Yes sir. We cannot ever be sure of what exactly he meant but I think we are getting hung up on ‘wrong’. Given that Bhagavan never judged or condemned anybody and given the context of the paragraph, one reasonable inference is that by ‘wrong’ he probably meant illogical or irrational. Sort of robbing Peter to pay Paul; likewise the mind punishing the body in order to deal with its pain.
 
OP
renuka

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Srimathi Dr. Renuka Ji,

As I have said, I hesitated to post a response before, exactly for finding myself in this position.

Please forgive me, but I do not possess the required medical knowledge nor the detailed knowledge of Vedanta. I ventured an answer to your question based on my concept of ahimsa. Beyond that I have no answers to your question.

I definitely do not have any facility to interpret Bhagawan’s words, in what context they were uttered. I am so close to him and his words to give you answers that would satisfy your inquiry.

Besides, I have no qualification to comment on my Guru’s words, except to post them for others to read and see whether they resonate with them.

Thanks.
Dear KRS ji,
I understand how you feel.
Sometimes we might feel we are not on the " same page" as the person asking the question..not in a judgmental way but because you feel the connection with God or Guru in a way so true that its beyond words to actually relay this to anyone else...this is what Jnana is about that " you know it" rather than you have to convince anyone.

This is where all worldly debates or exchange of opinions seem futile.

I do sense that connection you have with your Guru.
You are indeed fortunate.

Its just that if we observe words of Masters, at times on technical grounds their words could have " grey" areas or at times totally " contradict" each other.

Most probably the message isnt rigid but oriented to the person who asked it.

May be the day Ramana Maharishi spoke about suicide..someone in the crowd there could have been suicidal, so by saying " Its wrong!" ...the person's life could have been saved becos divine words do have an effect to blow away clouds of depression.

Just like how in Abrahamic religions the concept of Hell fire could give someone a jolt to follow the straight path.

And may be on the day where Ramana Maharishi spoke about everything being predetermined, the person asking the question was a healthy minded person sans depression so the actual answer could have been given.

I feel may be at times we could be making every word uttered by the Guru as fixed and rigid..but personally with my limited perception, it could be that everything is flexible as to fit the need of the person receiving it.

There is a Sufi saying that goes" Blessed are those who are flexible for they do not get bent out of shape"
 

KRS

Well-known member
Dear KRS ji,
I understand how you feel.
Sometimes we might feel we are not on the " same page" as the person asking the question..not in a judgmental way but because you feel the connection with God or Guru in a way so true that its beyond words to actually relay this to anyone else...this is what Jnana is about that " you know it" rather than you have to convince anyone.

This is where all worldly debates or exchange of opinions seem futile.

I do sense that connection you have with your Guru.
You are indeed fortunate.

Its just that if we observe words of Masters, at times on technical grounds their words could have " grey" areas or at times totally " contradict" each other.

Most probably the message isnt rigid but oriented to the person who asked it.

May be the day Ramana Maharishi spoke about suicide..someone in the crowd there could have been suicidal, so by saying " Its wrong!" ...the person's life could have been saved becos divine words do have an effect to blow away clouds of depression.

Just like how in Abrahamic religions the concept of Hell fire could give someone a jolt to follow the straight path.

And may be on the day where Ramana Maharishi spoke about everything being predetermined, the person asking the question was a healthy minded person sans depression so the actual answer could have been given.

I feel may be at times we could be making every word uttered by the Guru as fixed and rigid..but personally with my limited perception, it could be that everything is flexible as to fit the need of the person receiving it.

There is a Sufi saying that goes" Blessed are those who are flexible for they do not get bent out of shape"
Yes. Thank you🙏
 
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