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some god neo skeptics

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kunjuppu

Well-known member
the title of this thread is ofcourse the first words of 4 very contentious threads floating around healthily feeding off from each other and from within.

with much trepidition i stepped into a couple of them, and boy, i soon got out.

hats off to all these participants for the sheer gutsy responses, never ending never tiring and above all revelling in churning out the same aracha maavu over and over and over.

i dont how you guys have the energy to keep penning, but after reading about 6 posts at random, i quitted.

hopefully forever.

for the theists: God Bless

for the atheists: Bless

for the agnostics: Bless?

for who dont know anything: No Blessings :)
 

ShivKC

Active member
for the atheists: Bless

for the agnostics: Bless?

:)


I thought, the word 'bless' and its antonym 'curse', is something related to super natural / faith/intuition related, and i wonder if atheists would believe in any such things !
 
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kunjuppu

Well-known member
I thought, the word 'bless' and its antonym 'curse', is something related to super natural / faith/intuition related, and i wonder if atheists would believe in any such things !

there you go again... starting vivaadham in a 5th thread :) :)
 

C RAVI

Well-known member
Shri Kunjuppu,

Please permit me to get into vivaadham along with Shiv.. :)

If Atheist are sure about the success of hardships in life only by their sheer will power, struggle and intelligence AND believe that, only Science and Technology is the base and basis of Human living, why should they need unproven faith called "Bless"?

Do they mean "Bless" as just some strong self assertion and as guidance to other fellow Atheists- "Be Longing & Enthusiatic to Succeed by Science?

B L E S S

B - BE
L - LONGING &
E - ENTHUSIASTIC to
S - SUCCEED by
S - SCIENCE

???


 
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kunjuppu

Well-known member
all the guys please stick to your god, godless, silliness and what not thread please.

from now on in this thread, only valli, renuka, and amala :) my petchoos :)
 

renuka

Well-known member
the title of this thread is ofcourse the first words of 4 very contentious threads floating around healthily feeding off from each other and from within.

with much trepidition i stepped into a couple of them, and boy, i soon got out.

hats off to all these participants for the sheer gutsy responses, never ending never tiring and above all revelling in churning out the same aracha maavu over and over and over.

i dont how you guys have the energy to keep penning, but after reading about 6 posts at random, i quitted.

hopefully forever.

for the theists: God Bless

for the atheists: Bless

for the agnostics: Bless?

for who dont know anything: No Blessings :)


Hey Kunjs.

You know I wanted to start a thread titled Neo Spiritualism..in fact i was discussing it with Amala should I or should I not.

Then I thought there are enough brain wrecking energy zapping threads in forum that actually go now where and just cant cope too much so I dropped the idea.

BTW when I was thinking of Neo Spiritualism is was more to get an Uniform Hindu Identity as to standardize Hindu basic rites and rituals and combine variuos Indian subcultures that are practical to create a Pan Indian Hindu way of thinking but yet again..its too brain wrecking to do all that now..so I dropped the idea of that thread.

But I can safely say I am a Neo Spiritualist in the making.
 
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kunjuppu

Well-known member
Hey Kunjs.

You know I wanted to start a thread titled Neo Spiritualism..in fact i was discussing it with Amala should I or should I not.

Then I thought there are enough brain wrecking energy zapping threads in forum that actually go now where and just cant cope too much so I dropped the idea.

BTW when I was thinking of Neo Spiritualism is was more to get an Uniform Hindu Identity as to standardize Hindu basic rites and rituals and combine variuos Indian subcultures that are practical to create a Pan Indian Hindu way of thinking but yet again..its too brain wrecking to do all that now..so I dropped the idea of that thread.

But I can safely say I am a Neo Spiritualist in the making.

Dear renu,

I have always said, in very many threads, that you and happy hindu are the future of Hinduism – casteless, erudite, critical and above all inclusive.

Which is why, I was very surprised, that you did not see eye to eye with happy hindu, for to me, you both are two facets of neo Hinduism or neo spiritualism or whatever name you want to call it.

Personally, I find the ritual based brahminism, as practised by overwhelming tambrams, as bankrupt empty rituals, without meaning understood, half baked and at the most a socio economic set of actions, intent to appease an uneasy guilty mind.

I remember the restlessness my dad used to experience, if the vathiar was late by even 5 minutes every amavaasai every month, all for a 15 minute ritual, which in retrospect no one really understood what for, but followed with rigour all the same. From what I have seen, and it is only what my view, the whole process of related rituals, including sumangali prarthanai, thevasam, sandhyavandhanam or practise of theetu, are mental concepts handed down generation to generation, whose rigidity and observance, increasingly watered down to suit the convenience of that generation. Till now what we have is an empty shell.

As with anything else, the empty vessels are the ones that make the most noise. Those who are erudite, well versed, orthodox, are wise enough to maintain not only their silence, but their distance from the ordinary run of the mill tambrams with their run of the mill practices. To me it would be ok, if these folks just stick with their practices, and acknowledge not only their ignorance of the significance of what they are doing and also, it is done for the peace of mind and nothing more.

I will agree only on that point – peace of mind. For peace of mind, I say my ode to hanuman, not for expecting anything in return. Peace of mind is a sense of comfort, and for each of us, we have our own personal way in pursuit of it.

Back to current day discussions, whether it be the existence of God or doubt about God or looking critically at how Brahmins usurped the commentaries of the Vedas to their own narrow interests. Personally, I find nothing wrong in the variety of thoughts. True Hinduism I think, encourages the variety, for the critical gift that you have, is different from that of happy hindu, though both of you are believers.

Sangom, nara or Yamaka, may doubt or not believe. But that is a deliberate decision they came on their own, and not due to any hand me down, rituals, baptism or indoctrination. Such folks, I think, are the flowers of our society, for they not only should wake us up, to our own practises, but should serve as catalyst, for us believers to introspect our own practices, faith, and above all our sincerety.

Throwing stones at them, and indulging them in verbal abuse, is the most obscene way, to treat those who have followed our own path in whatever variation it may be in the past, and who have now digressed.

These are the products of the failure of theism to satisfy. That fact alone should alert to us our faults and shortcomings. Let us not cover these with anger, arrogance and above all group lynching. It does not show us believers in good light. We become yet another intolerant and indiscriminate mob. I am sure we can present a better front and case than that.

So, dear renu, your neo spiritualism, along with your devotion to sai, is as much, I think, a pie in the face, of the die hard traditionalists. Based on the past, they might not turn against you now, but you should be prepared. That is my take on the whole issue of reform of our faith, and bringing it to sync with today’s world. This type of reform has happened several times in the past, and so we wont be the first to initiate it.

also renu, i sense that you yourself are a challenge to their concept of rigid brahministic varna, which more than one reader has indirectly confronted you with. believe me, the stain of varna and separation has been ingrained, in most of us tambrams since birth, and it takes more than an average effort and guts to walk away from it. ofcourse, for me, distance from india and especially tamil nadu, helps.

Personally, I have given up most rituals. I go to the temple, say an archanai in the name of God, enjoy the ambience and the smoky smell, which is the same whether the temple be located in mylapore or Toronto. I light the lamp daily. I say my prayer to hanuman, and chants to siva. That is my Hinduism, and I am content with it. Casteless. Simple. Something for my children to follow. If they wish.

Thank you.
 
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sangom

Well-known member
"
the title of this thread is ofcourse the first words of 4 very contentious threads floating around healthily feeding off from each other and from within.

with much trepidition i stepped into a couple of them, and boy, i soon got out.

hats off to all these participants for the sheer gutsy responses, never ending never tiring and above all revelling in churning out the same aracha maavu over and over and over.

i dont how you guys have the energy to keep penning, but after reading about 6 posts at random, i quitted.

hopefully forever.

for the theists: God Bless

for the atheists: Bless

for the agnostics: Bless?

for who dont know anything: No Blessings :)

Dear Kunjuppu,

I would prefer "God (?) Bless (?)" for the Agnostics. Will you agree?
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
" I would prefer "God (?) Bless (?)" for the Agnostics. Will you agree?
Good one Sangom sir.

K sir, You said "for the atheists: Bless". Wonder if atheists expect to be blessed????

Yagnavalkya of Brihadaranyaka Upanishad said this to Maitreyi (Yagnavalkya is mentioned in other scriptures. Here am specifically mentioning the one from brihadraaranyaka upanishad) --

Ātmᾱ vᾱ are draṣṭavyaḥ śrotavyo mantavyo nididhyᾱsitavyaḥ..
Yo' nyatrᾱtmano sarvaṁ veda. idam brahma, idaṁ kṣatram, ime lokᾱḥ, ime devᾱḥ, imᾱni bhῡtᾱni, idaṁ sarvam, yad ayam ᾱtmᾱ..
Etad yad ṛgvedo yajurvedaḥ sāmavedo'tharvāṅgirasa itihāsaḥ purāṇam vidyā upaniṣadaḥ…
na pretya saṁjñāsti. Iti are bravīmi, iti hōvāca yajñavalkyaḥ..


To this Yagnavalkya the Atman is everything, from which all knowledge proceeds. Apart from the Atman there is nothing, no god, no after-life.

This Yagnavalkya of Brihad-Aaranyaka Upanishad was a rank Atheist. An atheist to whom the greatest veda rahasya was that even consciousness ceases to exist upon death.

However, if this Yagnavalkya were to be here today he would be called a retard displaying lack of intelligence in front of highly intelligent self-declared 'brahmins' of today.

Then there are the confused ones, that is those who think that since they are 'brahmins' hence they should be theist.

The worst of all (imo), however, are those who think that all hindus should raise their children as theists instead of thinkers.

Regards.
PS - On a personal note am thankful i have not one but two Yagnavalkyas in my life -- Nara sir and Sangom sir.
 
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kunjuppu

Well-known member
sangom, i agree with you.

happy, everyone of us, atheists or otherwise, can do with some blessings. it can come from God, from others and from within themselves if they so wish (have you not heard someone say 'bless me!' :) )
 

amala

Well-known member
When we sneeze here in the UK its very common for someone, even strangers to say Bless you. I think thats very sweet a gesture.
 

ShivKC

Active member
sangom, i agree with you.

happy, everyone of us, atheists or otherwise, can do with some blessings. it can come from God, from others and from within themselves if they so wish (have you not heard someone say 'bless me!' :) )

once again, objection your honor! :)

before appropriating them, kindly have it rechecked , whether atheists believe in such things like "blessing/curse".

by any change, you intend to mean it as a 'collective noun?
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Kunjs,

You wrote:
So, dear renu, your neo spiritualism, along with your devotion to sai, is as much, I think, a pie in the face, of the die hard traditionalists. Based on the past, they might not turn against you now, but you should be prepared. That is my take on the whole issue of reform of our faith, and bringing it to sync with today’s world. This type of reform has happened several times in the past, and so we wont be the first to initiate it.

also renu, i sense that you yourself are a challenge to their concept of rigid brahministic varna, which more than one reader has indirectly confronted you with. believe me, the stain of varna and separation has been ingrained, in most of us tambrams since birth, and it takes more than an average effort and guts to walk away from it. ofcourse, for me, distance from india and especially tamil nadu, helps.

Personally, I have given up most rituals. I go to the temple, say an archanai in the name of God, enjoy the ambience and the smoky smell, which is the same whether the temple be located in mylapore or Toronto. I light the lamp daily. I say my prayer to hanuman, and chants to siva. That is my Hinduism, and I am content with it. Casteless. Simple. Something for my children to follow. If they wish.

I really dont know to agree or disagree with you.I appreciate your comments Kunjs but dont get me wrong.

I am not really here to challenge anyone,I just give ideas as a fellow Hindu hoping for some standardized guidelines.

I dont hold Brahmins alone guilty of practising rigid Varna system.
All Hindus of any Varna are equally guilty.

In fact I am suprised why the word Brahminism is used so often in this Forum becos techinically there is only Sanathana Dharma and no Brahminism or Kshatriyaism or Sudraism etc.

See many Indians here in Malaysia make a fuss when it comes to marriage to fellow hindus and bring up caste etc but when their children marry chinese or malays or whites no one brings up caste.So thats double standards I believe so i will personally prefer a so called lower caste hindu daughter in law then some one who is not even Hindu or not even an Indian but then again thats just my preference cos the decision is not in my hand.

Coming to my Neo Spiritualism believe, I prefer Jnaana Marg thats why I dont even light a lamp at home or pray to any image cos it was Sathya Sai Babas direct order to me to give up all formal rituals.
Its not that I took blind orders from Sai Baba but since a child I was never inclined for rituals so I guess He knew whats the best for me.
 
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kunjuppu

Well-known member
I am not really here to challenge anyone,I just give ideas as a fellow Hindu hoping for some standardized guidelines. .

I think it is the ‘standardization’ that you talk of, is the bone of contention. I am for standardization, casteless at that. but how many folks in this forum 100% wholeheartedly agree to it.

The maximum you will get a statement is ‘that all castes are equal’, which means to me, ‘separate but equal’, which in reality to me, ‘we are not equal but superior’. I think it is naïve to think that tambrams by and large, really uphold still, the concept of equal hindu. If so, mutts like kanchi, would be out of a job. Methinkso.


I dont hold Brahmins alone guilty of practising rigid Varna system.
All Hindus of any Varna are equally guilty. .

The dalits I think are 100% innocent victims right through. The others? Yes. Still I think, because Brahmins were on the top of the totem pole, they can do service to the cause of Hinduism, by taking leadership and proclaiming that as far as they are concerned caste is dead. And show it in practice.

Just look at still, the opposition to opening up temple priesthood to other castes. Some things will take a long time change.


In fact I am suprised why the word Brahminism is used so often in this Forum becos techinically there is only Sanathana Dharma and no Brahminism or Kshatriyaism or Sudraism etc. .

Brahminism is used in the context, I think, to describe the inherent feeling of separation of the Brahmins, from other hindu groups. Please remember in tamil nadu, by and large, till recently, the social stratification was Brahmins and non-brahmins. We tambrams, the only Brahmin group in whole of india, to cast and group all other hindu folks into one whole mass and get away with it. Now it has backfired on us – we are singled out and excluded from government entitlements and preferences. Boy are we upset!


See many Indians here in Malaysia make a fuss when it comes to marriage to fellow hindus and bring up caste etc but when their children marry chinese or malays or whites no one brings up caste.So thats double standars I believe so i will personally prefer a so called lower caste hindu daughter in law then some one who is not even Hindu or not even an Indian but then again thats just my preference cos the decision is not in my hand. .

Ironic is it not? A white dil is any day more welcome, I think, than a dark Indian dil. I rest my case.


Coming to my Neo Spiritualism believe, I prefer Jnaana Marg thats why I dont even light a lamp at home or pray to any image cos it was Sathya Sai Babas direct order to me to give up all formal rituals.
Its not that I took blind orders from Sai Baba but since a child I was never inclined for rituals so I guess He knew what the best for me.

Jai jnaana marg!
 

sangom

Well-known member
Dear Kunjuppu,

Even more important than God's blessing, is the "blessing" of/from Praveen. I feel that if he now comes out with a clear statement as to whether he would permit the anti-theistic statements or whether he would prefer to have only the pure brahmin members (other than the so-called "self-loathing brahmins") making tall, nostalgic claims about the golden era of brahmin supremacy of society. That I think will decide whether people like HappyHindu are welcome here or not.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Kunjs,

You wrote:
The maximum you will get a statement is ‘that all castes are equal’, which means to me, ‘separate but equal’, which in reality to me, ‘we are not equal but superior’. I think it is naïve to think that tambrams by and large, really uphold still, the concept of equal hindu. If so, mutts like kanchi, would be out of a job. Methinkso.


You know spiritualism isn't about majority wins and equality.Its about who realizes and who does not.
No one needs anyone to sanction any thought when even God doesnt impose anything on us.

I think Lord Krishna was very clear on this;

“Manushyaanaam Sahareshu Kaschid yatati Siddhayae
Yatataam api siddhaanaam Kaschin maam vetti tatvataha”


(Srimad Bhagavad-Gita 7:3)

“Hardly one among thousands of men, strives to
realise ME: of those striving Yogis, again
some RARE ONE (Devoting himself exclusively
to ME) knows ME in reality”.
 
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kunjuppu

Well-known member
Dear Kunjs,

You wrote:


You know spiritualism isn't about majority wins and equality.Its about who realizes and who does not.
No one needs anyone to sanction any thought when even God doesnt impose anything on us.

exactly renu! i am with you here. i think this is where what is done in practise in today's version of 'sanatana dharma' differs from the ideals.

these harp on the same ideals, and will even agree with you here. come in practise, and verify if you get to drink in the same tumbler.

sorry dear lady. i have seen it happen in the best of my friends. hence i parted company with them on many many matters, and now i dont hesitate to speak out. most times.

God Bless you dear renu. (spiritually ofcourse :))
 

sarang

Well-known member
Why brahmins must give up their inherited varna (caste); they form an insignificant portion of the population. For that matter, nobody will give up his/her caste status. Ask any vanniyar, reddy, naidu, chettiar, kallar to give up their castes. It will never happen. Anyway those of the brahmins who want to renounce their caste status, can do so without anybody noticing it. There may be a slight problem in filling the caste census form.

Temple priests: In old temples, the priests have hereditary rights;and many temples, small and medium have non-brahmin or mixed priests. Hundreds of new temples sprout every month and there is no bar in employing non-brahmin priests. Perhaps temples in foreign lands, US, Canada, UK, Australia can give a lead and demand non-brahmin priests. Will they?
I think, melamaruvattur and sripuram temples (quite wealthy) are not brahmin priest dependent.

Minority among the minority brahmins are doing their bit to uphold time-honoured traditions; they must be encouraged and not white washed.

Those who do not want to follow traditions, rituals, outward chinnams - are free to do so. Why make everyone endiran-replicas?
 
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kunjuppu

Well-known member
dear Sangom,

There are no self-hating Brahmins. That is an oxy moron concept and has no validity in my opinion.

The original concept of ‘self-hate’ was an epithet against jews, coined by jews themselves – Zionists. The z-folks felt that every jew anywhere in the world, should support the Zionist ideal of Israel which was per Zionism, to be achieved by hook or crook.

Many thoughtful jews balked at the idea of the methods used by Zionists, and the z-folks reserved their most abusive vent for their own fellow bloods.

In india, per our constitution, the beef eating mani Shankar aiyar, agnostic kamal hassan and the kanchi mutt, are all grouped together as Brahmins, with all of us, agnostic, atheistic and theists, in this forum, coming somewhere along the same spectrum line. :)

I think we all love ourselves more than hate; I might hate you, but that is only because I love myself more. This is why, I say self-hating Brahmin is an invalid concept. We have no Zionism and no Israel to seek.

Ours is the great bharat mahan!

:)
 
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kunjuppu

Well-known member
Why brahmins must give up their inherited varna (caste); they form an insignificant portion of the population. For that matter, nobody will give up his/her caste status. Ask any vanniyar, reddy, naidu, chettiar, kallar to give up their castes. It will never happen. Anyway those of the brahmins who want to renounce their caste status, can do so without anybody noticing it. There may be a slight problem in filling the caste census form.

Temple priests: In old temples, the priests have hereditary rights;and many temples, small and medium have non-brahmin or mixed priests. Hundreds of new temples sprout every month and there is no bar in employing non-brahmin priests. Perhaps temples in foreign lands, US, Canada, UK, Australia can give a lead and demand non-brahmin priests. Will they?
I think, melamaruvattur and sripuram temples (quite wealthy) are not brahmin priest dependent.

Minority among the minority brahmins are doing their bit to uphold time-honoured traditions; they must be encouraged and not white washed.

Those who do not want to follow traditions, rituals, outward chinnams - are free to do so. Why make everyone endiran-replicas?

sarang,

i love this. i dedicate it to renuka karthikeyan, to explain a concept, that i am not that good in doing.

thank you sarang. God Bless.
 

Iyyarooraan

Well-known member
Kunjappu Sir
The last line "some thing for my children to follow". Do not you think that could again become a religion or a practice.
 
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kunjuppu

Well-known member
Kunjappu Sir
The last line "some thing for my children to follow". Do not you think that could again become a religion or a practice.

iyya,

my overwhelming concern is to present to the best of my ability what i practise with sincerety and honesty.

i do not go about claiming about a rich philosophy to my kids and practising values which are in direct contrast to their sense of fairness, egalitarianism and above all honesty.

i cannot be two faced. preach something and practise something else. the kids see through parental hypocracy right away and any residual respect they have, evaporates in a jiffy.

i feel this is the best way to impart some of my traditions to my children, and i have no hesitation to tell of them practises and values that i eschewed.

hopefully, when they eventually evaluate what has been passed on, it will be something that is acceptable.

that is all.
 
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