Solutions to the community's problem of digging its own grave

[auh]

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I have no specific complaints on Vaishnavas when my own Smartha Intellectuals don't consider me as a valuable product in the marriage market ound:

I am baffled by the smiley that appears after the deprecatory sentence. What is that supposed to mean?

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear Zebra16

Your post # 78.

Permit me to remind you that 'light year' is a unit of DISTANCE and not TIME !

Yay Yem

 

[zebra16]

Dear Zebra16

Your post # 78.

Permit me to remind you that 'light year' is a unit of DISTANCE and not TIME !

Yay Yem

Dear Yay Yemji,

I was aware of it. My point was in emphasising that incidences which presumably occurred in such a distant past (distance travelled back in time) are being allowed to have an emotional sway in the present day.

Thanks for pointing out the inappropriateness of the use of "light year"

 

[kunjuppu]

vaagmi,

please be polite. nobody is hiding their face. i asked you a question. good to hear that you have no objection to your children marrying a smartha. good for you. i see no reason to apologize. i have close iyengar friends who wont.

all i am saying this in the concept of brahmin unity and your implied unmentionables in your post, which raised my feelings. maybe you owe me an apology after all.

 

[Vaagmi]

vaagmi,

please be polite. nobody is hiding their face. i asked you a question. good to hear that you have no objection to your children marrying a smartha. good for you. i see no reason to apologize. i have close iyengar friends who wont.

all i am saying this in the concept of brahmin unity and your implied unmentionables in your post, which raised my feelings. maybe you owe me an apology after all.

Kunjuppu,

You imputed motives to me, You misinterpreted my words, and finally went on to call me I am a bigot. Now you are asking me to be polite when I asked you to apologise for the abuse you heaped on me. I don't speak here for your iyengar friends. I speak for the brahmin community. And finally you are saying I owe an apology. That speaks volumes about your honesty. No problem. I have come across many such people. I never thought I would have to add you to the list. God bless you.

 

[Nara]

Varna is not caste ..just like Atma is not soul ...

One can have thoughtless equivalencies like the one above just to feel liberal.

Even today whites in USA still control most of the power. The blacks are oppressed in many areas. The confederate flag in this context is a symbol of racism.

People calling themselves birthbased brahmins were always a minority and today they are not only minority but have no power as a community. Many people calling themselves as brahmins are systematically oppressed who either flee or put up with the abuse because they also happen to be poor.

Concept of Varna is not an exclusive intellectual property of Brahmins even in the past era.

The comparison of their views to confederate flag shows the nature of thinking and so I know it is pointless to debate further.

Yes, there are lots of differences between the rednecks flying the Confederate flags and the Brahminis, one being the former on the average are kind of brutish and the later tend to be on the average more educated, and thats what makes the similarities between the two groups so sad. The similarity is the former takes pride in their Southern heritage which is widely seen as offensive and the later take pride in the Varna theory that is widely seen as offensive.

Nobody is saying Varna and jati are one and the same thing. For an authentic explanation of Varna and jAti please visit Hindu Dharma: The Vedic Religion And Varna Dharma : kamakoti.org.

To debate is to engage with others who do not share the same POV. If it is to be held under the rules tks usually suggests it would be more like a bhajan session not debate.

Thank you ....

 

[Nara]

.... i have close iyengar friends who wont..

Most Iyengar arranged marriages won't consider Iyers, but if the girl wants to go for IC they may reluctantly agree if the boy is Brahmin, but they always prefer Iyengar of the same kalai. The same is probably true for Iyers, they would arrange for an Iyer boy only, and in case of love marriage would reluctantly agree to a Brahmin boy.

One more thing, this whole discussion is about preventing Brahmin girls from IC/IR, so when the discussion turns to a sub set of Brahmins, Iyengar, naturally it is going to be about Iyenger girls. I have never seen any serious discussion about Brahmin boys marring IC/IR, I wonder why!!!

 

[C RAVI]

I have never seen any serious discussion about Brahmin boys marring IC/IR, I wonder why!!!

Because, as per the Ground Reality, more Brahmin girls are opting for IC/IR marriages. Brahmin guys opting for such marriage are very very rare, close to NIL.

If we know the ground reality, we neither need to wonder nor need to confuse our self...

 

[sangom]

Most Iyengar arranged marriages won't consider Iyers, but if the girl wants to go for IC they may reluctantly agree if the boy is Brahmin, but they always prefer Iyengar of the same kalai. The same is probably true for Iyers, they would arrange for an Iyer boy only, and in case of love marriage would reluctantly agree to a Brahmin boy.

One more thing, this whole discussion is about preventing Brahmin girls from IC/IR, so when the discussion turns to a sub set of Brahmins, Iyengar, naturally it is going to be about Iyenger girls. I have never seen any serious discussion about Brahmin boys marring IC/IR, I wonder why!!!

Nara,

I thought that this thread was about "the community digging its own grave", which means our girls marrying 'pratiloma' and producing lower caste children. The Thevar, Gounder, Maravar etc., communities are also vexed with the same problem and they have possibly found their own solution/s. Tabras, perhaps due to their genes refined by thousands of years of culture, are excellent in discussion but rather poor in arriving at implementable decisions. (the VA-Advaita-Dvaita arguments are a good example, I feel.) Here also the same happens.

There are a good number of Saiva Pillais mainly from Nanchilnadu & TNLY areas, spread in different parts of (erstwhile) Travancore area. Manonmaniyam Sundaram Pillai belonged to this group from Alleppey. Today many of them have completely lost touch with Tamil and are Malayalam-speakers and freely intermarry with Malayalis. Many have turned NVs also. There are a few households in TVM who are basically well-to-do traders (Provision merchants, Hardware merchants, Brass, etc., vessels and small service outlets too). These people do not send their girls for study beyond +2 level, usually. Some may be graduates through distance learning, etc., but you will hardly find their girls in the Engg/Medicine courses. The parents save enough moneys to marry off their daughters to their same caste people and in this Malayalam converts are also considered. I don't know how the V-NV problem is sorted out, but, historically in many Kerala families, the womenfolk cook & prepare NV items for their men but the women themselves are scrupulously vegetarians like we tabras. May be this is the method they adopt.

May be we tabras who feel that our girls marrying lower castes/varnas is dangerous for the community, should follow the practice of these saiva Pillais and restrict higher studies for our daughters. But, are there any takers?

 

[Brahmanyan]

Dear Friends,

As I have written what ever I wanted to tell on this subject and nothing more to add,
I wish to unsubscribe from this tread.
Ironically this discussion started with seriousness and good inention has gone awry from the main topic
to the extent of hurling personal invectives.
ray2:
Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[prasad1]

Because, as per the Ground Reality, more Brahmin girls are opting for IC/IR marriages. Brahmin guys opting for such marriage are very very rare, close to NIL.

If we know the ground reality, we neither need to wonder nor need to confuse our self...

Boys in India, particularly TB from TN are probably tied to their mother's apron string. Or so much guilt is put on them with this talk of purity, culture etc. that they do not marry outside their parent's wishes. Boys outside of TN marry IC/IR/Irace/inter.......

I see many of our TB boys married to white American girls. I also see 40 year old single TB boys.

 

[prasad1]

Dear Friends,

As I have written what ever I wanted to tell on this subject and nothing more to add,
I wish to unsubscribe from this tread.
Ironically this discussion started with seriousness and good inention has gone awry from the main topic
to the extent of hurling personal invectives.
ray2:
Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Sir, I am with you.
How do we get off the subject of CASTE?

 

[Nara]

... Tabras, perhaps due to their genes refined by thousands of years of culture, are excellent in discussion but rather poor in arriving at implementable decisions. (the VA-Advaita-Dvaita arguments are a good example, I feel.) Here also the same happens.

The main argument is Brahmin cultural values are worth preserving and the main threat is an alarmingly increasing number of Brahmin girls opting for boys who are not Brahmins. Rational and sensible suggestions have been rejected out of hand in favor of குதிரைக் கொம்பு type of ideas like Brahmin unity and common values for all Brahmins, etc. Let us set aside the natural aversion of Brahmins for unity of any kind and look at the sheer incongruity of the goal of preserving their jAti culture and unifying Brahmins as the method of achieving it.

The goal of preserving Brahmin culture is full of contradictions. Let us take the case of Smarthas and SVs. As has been stated already, SV's are pretty exclusive about the God they will pray to and the temple they will enter. The very touch of Vibuthi i.e. திருநிறு is blasphemous and polluting to boot. The idea of Nirguna Brahmam is poison. This is their culture, their value. How can a common set of cultural values be forged between these two Brahmin groups and still preserve the essential cultural values of SV?

This is not all. Even within SV, thenkalais consider Bharanyasam of Vadkalai anathema. So, even a simple unity between the two kalais of SV is impossible without one group giving in to the other.

Finally, Brahmins who realize the absurdity of all of these can surely go beyond unity among only Brahmins and look for unity among all humans.

Thank you .....

 

[tks]

Yes, there are lots of differences between the rednecks flying the Confederate flags and the Brahminis, one being the former on the average are kind of brutish and the later tend to be on the average more educated, and thats what makes the similarities between the two groups so sad. The similarity is the former takes pride in their Southern heritage which is widely seen as offensive and the later take pride in the Varna theory that is widely seen as offensive.

Nobody is saying Varna and jati are one and the same thing. For an authentic explanation of Varna and jAti please visit Hindu Dharma: The Vedic Religion And Varna Dharma : kamakoti.org.

To debate is to engage with others who do not share the same POV. If it is to be held under the rules tks usually suggests it would be more like a bhajan session not debate.

Thank you ....

No one that I know takes pride or feels ashamed in Varna theory! In fact no one I know thinks about it. Period.

I love to debate and engage with people who do not share my POV. I try to do that in my professional career in management and leadership roles. I really like to surround myself with people who think very differently from me so I benefit from their counsel.

In this forum I have a few rules and will engage with anyone with other POV (I am sure Sri Vaagmi and I may not be agreeing on some issues but that will not prevent me from listening, expressing and engaging with him - for example). I tend to not engage in the following situations . They are more like guidelines and not strictly rules

1. I don't like to debate someone regarding their belief system.

2. I dont like to debate with someone who have demonstrated by their posts that they are basically prejudiced (prejudging due to some latent or visible bias since this comes in the class of belief systems too). Often the object of prejudice is irrelevant since that can change with situations

3. I dont like to debate someone that repeatedly demonstrates lack of integrity and not eventually wanting to know the 'truth' even in debates

4. I dont like to debate on topics which fall under the domain of knowledge in two situations -
A.I have no clue (and lack skills , knowledge and/or interest) or
B. I sense that the other person has no clue but still takes strong position. Sometimes they may not know what they do not know or lack minimum skills required even if they have advance degrees in another field (e.g., understanding certain fields including our scriptures require significant abstraction skills).

5. People who are repeatedly rude

The above may come across as being arrogant but that is not my intent.

I know you may want to put me in one of the above categories in a predictable way LoL

Actually feelings of courage (sometimes interpreted as arrogance) and feelings of humility (sometime interpreted as being meek/submissive) actually can coexist for the same position in a person (I leave those that like to abstract to figure that one out )

Having said all this let me also say one of my rule is not to stifle expressions - wish you all the best putting forth your views about the terrible & evil brahminism .

 

[Brahmanyan]

Sir, I am with you.
How do we get off the subject of CASTE?

Dear Sri Prasad,

The subject of Caste is different catagry of social classification with wider impact. This could be taken as a separate thread by learnered members of the Forum for discussion.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[Vaagmi]

Mr.Prasad in #91:

Boys in India, particularly TB from TN are probably tied to their mother's apron string. Or so much guilt is put on them with this talk of purity, culture etc. that they do not marry outside their parent's wishes. Boys outside of TN marry IC/IR/Irace/inter.......
I see many of our TB boys married [COLOR=#DA7911 !important]to white[/COLOR] [COLOR=#DA7911 !important]American girls[/COLOR]. I also see 40 year old single TB boys.

Apron string boys are there in every community in India. The boys who live with their parents and who respect their wishes marry the girl within the community (either love marriage or arranged marriage) and live happily. Let the boys outside TN do whatever they want. TB boys are a happy lot. They know what is good for them. They do not need advice from the IC/IR/gay marriage enthusiasts.

 

[Vaagmi]

Post #93:

The main argument is Brahmin cultural values are worth preserving and the main threat is an alarmingly increasing number of Brahmin girls opting for boys who are not Brahmins. Rational and sensible suggestions have been rejected out of hand in favor of குதிரைக் கொம்பு type of ideas like Brahmin unity and common values for all Brahmins, etc. Let us set aside the natural aversion of Brahmins for unity of any kind and look at the sheer incongruity of the goal of preserving their jAti culture and unifying Brahmins as the method of achieving it.

The number of IC marriages in which brahmins girls opt for NB boys are matched also by the number of IC marriages in which brahmins boys marry NB girls. This has been going on for long. SC marriages are also taking place in large numbers and couples from these marriages are living happily. We are making a mountain out of a mole-hill when we spend too much time in discussing IC marriages as they are still a small percentage of the total number of marriages in the community. People can suggest if they have an simpler alternative to the குதிரைக்கொம்பு.

The goal of preserving Brahmin culture is full of contradictions. Let us take the case of Smarthas and SVs. As has been stated already, SV's are pretty exclusive about the God they will pray to and the temple they will enter. The very touch of Vibuthi i.e. திருநிறு is blasphemous and polluting to boot. The idea of Nirguna Brahmam is poison. This is their culture, their value. How can a common set of cultural values be forged between these two Brahmin groups and still preserve the essential cultural values of SV?

Though protestants and catholics are different factions subscribing to diametrically opposite idea about what is christianity, they do speak about unity. In some countries they are at the throat of each other. But still they do have unity. This is possible between brahmins of different sects also. SVs may be worshipping God with a particular name and Smarthas may be worshipping God with another name. But they do worship God and have the scripture in Vedas. Those who do not have any stake in this and who do not believe in God at all are the people who come in and fish in the troubled waters when there is a minor skirmish. Common cultural values are many and differences are a few. The common culture and value can be identified and promoted while differences can be discussed in a friendly atmosphere where it is possible or when the differences are unbridgable the discussion can be postponed with an agreement to accept differences.

This is not all. Even within SV, thenkalais consider Bharanyasam of Vadkalai anathema. So, even a simple unity between the two kalais of SV is impossible without one group giving in to the other.

There is a factual error here. Samasrayanam and Bharanyasam are two important symbolic samskarams for SVs. Thenkalais do not consider bharanyasam as anathema as claimed here. They say they do that bharanyasam right at the time of the samasrayanam and so they do not require to do that separately as the vadakalais do. Let us understand the faith better before coming to criticise it even if we may not believe in it.

Finally, Brahmins who realize the absurdity of all of these can surely go beyond unity among only Brahmins and look for unity among all humans.

Yes they can try that. But they will be first told they are brahmins and so have no locus standi to talk about unity among all humans. Even if they cut their poonools, wipe out their religious marks, marry a girl from NBs, give all their children in marriage to Nbs etc., the moment they show their natural brilliance in pushing for unity of human race, they will easily be identified as brahmins and they will be hounded out. This happened to Rajaji and can happen to anyone else. So it is better to have a விரலுக்குத்தகுந்த வீக்கம் and make efforts to work for the unity of the community which can contribute in the long run to the unity of the humanity.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

This is possible between brahmins of different sects also. SVs may be worshipping God with a particular name and Smarthas may be worshipping God with another name. But they do worship God and have the scripture in Vedas. Those who do not have any stake in this and who do not believe in God at all are the people who come in and fish in the troubled waters when there is a minor skirmish. Common cultural values are many and differences are a few. The common culture and value can be identified and promoted while differences can be discussed in a friendly atmosphere where it is possible or when the differences are unbridgable the discussion can be postponed with an agreement to accept differences.

Dear Vaagmi,

That was a well written post, especially the quoted portion.

Brahmins are wisening up and can make it out who drums up the differences amongst them with a view to divide them as opposed to those who are sympathetic to their causes.

Ravi (refer post # 65) and you deserve appreciation.

 

[C RAVI]

Mr.Prasad in #91:



Apron string boys are there in every community in India. The boys who live with their parents and who respect their wishes marry the girl within the community (either love marriage or arranged marriage) and live happily. Let the boys outside TN do whatever they want. TB boys are a happy lot. They know what is good for them. They do not need advice from the IC/IR/gay marriage enthusiasts.

:thumb:

You hit the nail right on its head!!

 

[praveen]

Please stick to the topic without getting involved in any unnecessary arguments/fights that is beyond the scope of this topic (read personal attacks). There are a few replies which are bordering very close to being one and some replies have been posted on similar lines.

If such replies continue this topic will be closed.

A discussion will become heated but that does not give anybody any right to launch into a personal attack.