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Solutions to the community's problem of digging its own grave

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C RAVI

Well-known member
Vgane:

The issue is basically the way the children are brought up. The kind of value time parents spend with children right from the childhood when the child starts going to school. When my school going daughter showed signs of disinterest and resistance to the usual morning prayer recitation before the kuththuvilakku in the perumAl sannidhi along with her mother, it took a good one hour of conversation with her for me to know what was happening. Her teachers and some of the class mates were repeatedly asking her why we have so many gods. One god for getting wealth, two for getting good education, one for health etc etc., The girl was unable to find an answer. Once the problem was understood by us the parents, we told her how to handle these questions. As she moved further and reached the secondary school level there was this idea thrown at her that everyone has the same color blood running in their veins and so everyone is equal. When this question was handled we could show her how much of a simplistic assumption has gone into this assumption. The anxiety vanished once things were explained.

When I was going through the archives here i found some one had suggested a class for every girl and boy just after they finish their college education to be addressed by 1)learned elders who will speak to them about our culture, values, religious faith etc., how and why they are superior 2)Doctors/consultants/counsellors who will talk to them about their physical system including the changes that occur as they grow, the impact of hormones, dangers of a casual but intense relationship etc.,They will teach even what a handshake which lingers for a few seconds too long means, how to identify a casanova and handle a working relationship with him in the work place etc.3)Experts in finance about savings and investments. This will be on the lines of a finishing school. They will learn essentials to face life. It is a good idea and can be tried.

If brahmins, wherever they are can organize such classes every year to the eligible youngsters through their numerous, sabhas, kalakshepa goshtis, samajams, bhajanai matoms, temple committees and through the ******* they can save many girl/boy going in the wrong path. Forget about the diaspora as they are deeply mired in the heady stupor of alien cultures. They have to gain a lot of energy to reach an escape velocity which is just next to impossible. They will come like they do here and offer quickfix solutions which are suitable only to their children living in those countries. Politely listening to them and quickly forgetting what they said and keeping away from them is the best option.

Another most important point is that you(the parents) should yourself live a decent and good life. If you smoke a cigarette first thing in the morning, nurse a peg of whiskey before dinner, forgot completely that piece of thread called poonal, never go anywhere near the perumal sannidhi, has no sense of what brahmins call எச்சில் or பத்து and go about mixing everything around freely, do not express restraint with your language and emotions then you lose not only your right to expect anything from your children, you also lose a lot of esteem and your advices and words will be treated with the contempt that they deserve. You can cover up the absence of real love and respect for you by flowery language like "my love for my children was just unconditional" like my india born(he was born in coonoor in the Nilgiris) Anglo Indian friend who had never visited England used to drop the words "back home in London" every now and then in the conversation to cover up the abject poverty in which he lived.

If inspite of all your efforts, IC/IR marriages do happen stoically put up with them without accepting them as normal. It can not be business as usual after an IC/IR marriage because the basic fabric of understanding,trust, love and affection are all irreparably damaged. If the IC marriage is a success let them live happily. If it fails let them handle it. Don't take it on your head as a problem to be solved by you. If help is asked for extend it. The other children in the family will atleast learn necessary lessons. Thanks.

Cheers.

:thumb:
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
... When my school going daughter showed signs of disinterest and resistance to the usual morning prayer recitation before the kuththuvilakku in the perumAl sannidhi along with her mother, it took a good one hour of conversation with her for me to know what was happening. ...

..., never go anywhere near the perumal sannidhi, ...

.

... and no siva or muruga. right and thank you.

atleast we smarthas think more inclusively than you. and also, i wonder who is more bigoted here with all this preachings. thank you sir.
 
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Nara

Well-known member
In the U.S. you will often see proud display of the Confederate flag, especially in the South. This flag is seen by most African Americans as a symbol of oppression, a reminder to the days of slavery. But these Whites in the South who display it defend it saying the flag represents their heritage. Thoughtful Whites everywhere disagree, they understand the flag represents racism and hatred and that there is nothing to be proud of about this flag.

There is a parallel between displaying the Confederate flag and the defence of Varna and the notion of Guna Brahmana. Varna is less about heritage or culture and more about oppression and hatred. Reading Babasaheb Ambedkar's pamphlet Annihilation of Caste and his rebuttal to Gandhi's criticism of the pamphlet will help understand the profoundly oppressive nature of the Varna system. His criticism includes the so called guna based Varna and shows how ridiculous the very idea is and why such a "reform" is impossible. Varna, whether birth based or guna based, is a blot, nothing to be proud of.
 

C RAVI

Well-known member
... and i think, is the applause, also because, you being a smartha, they wont give their daughters to you for marriage? just curious. that is all, if you dont mind.

:pound:


Not like that Shri.Kunjuppu...Not about me being Smartha and not getting a girl from Vaishnava family, unaware of which I have applauded.

It was for the gist of the post.


A Vaishnava would naturally talk about things related to Vaishnavism and so does the Smartha.

When their children happen to fall in love with any Tamil Brahmin (Vaishnava or Smartha) usually there is no serious issues and problems from the parents side. If it all there is a problem, that's what we should avoid and counting on Brahmins to be all inclusive, willingly.

I have no specific complaints on Vaishnavas when my own Smartha Intellectuals don't consider me as a valuable product in the marriage market :pound:


PS. You can be rest assured that this loser will not hate Brahmins & Brahmins community because of this and would stop voicing in favor of the community... :). Sorry for the disappointment, if at all you been :)
 
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kunjuppu

Well-known member
dear amala,

it is really sad that the prejudices are sooo deeply embedded here, that even within a common tambram platform, we have members, openly advocating stratification within tambram community in the name of blood purity - vaishnavaite blood cannot mingle with that of the smartha.

not realizing how hurtful this is to hear for smarthas, and they speak of the corruption and decadency of foreign residing tambrams. separate but equal? we have heard that before.

with the corruption and decadency of the mind so deep, how much more into a morass can we get? talk of brahmin unity is but a hollow boast, when within the group the son of one is not good enough for the other's daughter. such is life.

really i wonder, how many sri vaishnavites here would openly come and agree to arrange marriage their daughters to smarthas. vaagmi, i suspect will have plenty of company.
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
A relative of mine married a SV brahmin girl. The father of the bride refused to come to the marriage, and kept his wife from the marriage. The girls's brother officiated in the marriage in Chennai. Now they have 2 boys, the girl's mother visits the family but father still has not relented. It is almost 8 years since their marriage.

Are we talking of Brahmin Unity?

We have a friend from Madurai, a liberated soul, does not differentiate between shiva, Vishnu, or any other representation of God.
She has not seen Madurai Meenakshi Temple as her father is still opposed to going to that Temple.
 

Nara

Well-known member
....not realizing how hurtful this is to hear for smarthas, and they speak of the corruption and decadency of foreign residing tambrams. separate but equal? we have heard that before.

...
The funny thing about this preservation of culture and values is that it has to mean Smarthas are out of bounds for the SV's. How else can they preserve their own SV culture and values? If the Smarthas demand the SV's must be broadminded enough to accept Smartha suitors, why must the broadmindedness not extend beyond B's? Why can't the Smarthas, and SV's too, be broadminded enough to accept NB's? Too many uncomfortable questions, isn't? That is why I say, ditch SV, ditch Smartha, let us all be humans. Then again, the prime directive is, caste purity is supreme, caste culture and values must be preserved at all cost, otherwise it is eat crow time.....
 

tks

Well-known member
In the U.S. you will often see proud display of the Confederate flag, especially in the South. This flag is seen by most African Americans as a symbol of oppression, a reminder to the days of slavery. But these Whites in the South who display it defend it saying the flag represents their heritage. Thoughtful Whites everywhere disagree, they understand the flag represents racism and hatred and that there is nothing to be proud of about this flag.

There is a parallel between displaying the Confederate flag and the defence of Varna and the notion of Guna Brahmana. Varna is less about heritage or culture and more about oppression and hatred. Reading Babasaheb Ambedkar's pamphlet Annihilation of Caste and his rebuttal to Gandhi's criticism of the pamphlet will help understand the profoundly oppressive nature of the Varna system. His criticism includes the so called guna based Varna and shows how ridiculous the very idea is and why such a "reform" is impossible. Varna, whether birth based or guna based, is a blot, nothing to be proud of.


Varna is not caste ..just like Atma is not soul ...

One can have thoughtless equivalencies like the one above just to feel liberal.

Even today whites in USA still control most of the power. The blacks are oppressed in many areas. The confederate flag in this context is a symbol of racism.

People calling themselves birthbased brahmins were always a minority and today they are not only minority but have no power as a community. Many people calling themselves as brahmins are systematically oppressed who either flee or put up with the abuse because they also happen to be poor.

Concept of Varna is not an exclusive intellectual property of Brahmins even in the past era.

The comparison of their views to confederate flag shows the nature of thinking and so I know it is pointless to debate further.
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
... and no siva or muruga. right and thank you.

atleast we smarthas think more inclusively than you. and also, i wonder who is more bigoted here with all this preachings. thank you sir.

Dear Kunjuppu,

I never thought you have this face too. Where did I say anything about smarthas in my post? Please quote the message number and the words here. If you can not do that you need to apologise to me. Please at least let me know the thought process which led you to the conclusion that I am begoted. I just mentioned perumal sannidhi. It is a neutral word. It is used by smarthas too in my district to indicate the place in a brahmin's house where the pictures of Gods are displayed and a kuthuvilakku is usually lit every day morning and evening. Some people keep the vigrahas and salagramam too there and do daily puja there. Then it becomes a puja almirah or pooja room or simply pooja ullu. Smartha's in Madurai wherefrom I hail use the term freely. I have never heard them using the term Siva Sannidhi or Easwaran Sannidhi or Murugan sannidhi even though Siva or Murugan may the God they may be actually worshipping-not vishnu. It requires a peculiar mind set to find fault with this word perumal sannidhi to accuse me of bigotry. You have that and that comes as a surprise to me. Surprise, because you have all along been lecturing from roof top about broadmindedness to accept IC/IR marriages. And take it from me my dear friend, I do not mind my children marrying an Iyer boy or a girl. I will be upset only if the marriage is a IC/IR marriage. Now that I have said this, please let me know where you are going to hide your face. And certainly I expect an apology from you-that is if you are a honest gentleman who has learnt something from your present phirangi neighbours if not from the pattars from your neighbourhood when you were in India. I look forward to your reply.
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
... and i think, is the applause, also because, you being a smartha, they wont give their daughters to you for marriage? just curious. that is all, if you dont mind.

Dear Kunjuppu,

This obsession with Iyengars and particularly with Iyengar daughters is funny. Is it the result of any unrequited affair or the heady effect of the song "அய்யங்காரு வீட்டு அழகே....". There is nothing so special about these Iyengar girls. They are just like any other brahmin girls. Your curiosity got bleached and it is showing!!:wof:
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
dear amala,

it is really sad that the prejudices are sooo deeply embedded here, that even within a common tambram platform, we have members, openly advocating stratification within tambram community in the name of blood purity - vaishnavaite blood cannot mingle with that of the smartha.not realizing how hurtful this is to hear for smarthas, and they speak of the corruption and decadency of foreign residing tambrams. separate but equal? we have heard that before.

Again Kunjuppu you are misinterpreting my post and putting words and intentions into that. If you think you are very smart and I am a fool you will be disappointed. If you continue with this kind of nonsense I will have to report you to Sri Praveen.

with the corruption and decadency of the mind so deep, how much more into a morass can we get? talk of brahmin unity is but a hollow boast, when within the group the son of one is not good enough for the other's daughter. such is life.

Yeah This is exactly what passed through my mind when I read your last three posts here. Think about what you have started here. I pity you.

really i wonder, how many sri vaishnavites here would openly come and agree to arrange marriage their daughters to smarthas. vaagmi, i suspect will have plenty of company.

Vaagmi has given his views about iyengar iyer marriages. I do not understand why only the daughters? There I discern the insipient chauvinist who had been wearing a cloak along. If you expect there will be plenty of company for vaagmi that would mean vaagmi is far more acceptable to the community here than Kunjuppu. Kunjuppu, you certainly owe me an apology. Come on,be quick with it and.... yes :peace:.
 

Brahmanyan

Well-known member
Shri Brahmanyan,

Your post no.22 is highly admirable and is very soothing.

But, I would like to express my views on the quoted statement of yours. -


Every community having been into existence and with folks being born in that existing community, is continuing to identify themselves in the society, associating themselves in their exclusive cloister. BUT, it is only just that they all belong to that exclusive cloister that takes pride in its existence, following its tradition/custom/practices, continuing to prosper its cloister etc.etc and in No Way to isolate themselves from each other out of own perceived superiority and attempting to detach itself from the concept of Unity in Diversity in Democratic India.

All the community people today respect each other irrespective of caste and religion While Holding love & respect towards one's own community. All the community go to the maximum extent to live in line with the sense of Humanity, Compassion and Unity while continuing to stick to the prosperity of their own community in the same intensity.

When Brahmins wish to take pride expecting unity among Brahmins in Brahmin's Exclusive Cloister because of Birth While continuing to live with the sense of Humanity, Compassion and Unity with all other Caste and Religious community, why that such an attempt gonna Ruin them??



Dear Sri Ravi,

I am with you in all your views except that I am a believer in dissolving our exclusiveness in the society in which
we live, just as the Parsees wanted to "mix like sugar in the milk" when they entered India. On the other hand history has shown, living in Cloistered cultural isolation (to which previous generations had consigned them), Jews could never become truly part of the society in Europe. They have to suffer isolation of suspicion and envy. I know the examples may not be correct, but to show similarity of circumstances I used them.

Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 

C RAVI

Well-known member
Dear Sri Ravi,

I am with you in all your views except that I am a believer in dissolving our exclusiveness in the society in which
we live, just as the Parsees wanted to "mix like sugar in the milk" when they entered India. On the other hand history has shown, living in Cloistered cultural isolation (to which previous generations had consigned them), Jews could never become truly part of the society in Europe. They have to suffer isolation of suspicion and envy. I know the examples may not be correct, but to show similarity of circumstances I used them.

Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.


Shri Brahmanyan,


Thank you for your kind reply..


First of all, I would like to know what we mean by "Dissolving our Exclusiveness"? What sort of exclusiveness, socially and politically Brahmins have today to say that their Exclusivity is deterrent to the Society? To say that Brahmin Community's exclusivity as much as the existence of that of other communities is plaguing the Society? To say that existence of Exclusive/Unique/different Community called Brahmins along side other existing communities is the Shame to the Human Society?


Out of many possible solutions to Brahmins problems, the most important one is the Unity among Brahmins, within each groups and among all groups of Brahmins

Why is that establishing such an unity under One Brahmin Umbrella while living in harmony along with all other existing communities will ruin the Brahmins?

As far as I am concerned, it is a Shame for those Brahmins who all pro-actively want to run away to get their identity dissolved and merged with other community. They lack the basic understanding of "Unity in Diversity" & "Humanity, Respect and Compassion among all Caste & Religion" and are ignorant to think that the other Caste & Religious people believe in the existence of Self Respect & Self Dignity in these Brahmins.
 

vgane

Well-known member
Shri Brahmanyan,


Thank you for your kind reply..


First of all, I would like to know what we mean by "Dissolving our Exclusiveness"? What sort of exclusiveness, socially and politically Brahmins have today to say that their Exclusivity is deterrent to the Society? To say that Brahmin Community's exclusivity as much as the existence of that of other communities is plaguing the Society? To say that existence of Exclusive/Unique/different Community called Brahmins along side other existing communities is the Shame to the Human Society?


Out of many possible solutions to Brahmins problems, the most important one is the Unity among Brahmins, within each groups and among all groups of Brahmins

Why is that establishing such an unity under One Brahmin Umbrella while living in harmony along with all other existing communities will ruin the Brahmins?

As far as I am concerned, it is a Shame for those Brahmins who all pro-actively want to run away to get their identity dissolved and merged with other community. They lack the basic understanding of "Unity in Diversity" & "Humanity, Respect and Compassion among all Caste & Religion" and are ignorant to think that the other Caste & Religious people believe in the existence of Self Respect & Self Dignity in these Brahmins.

Dear Shri Brahmanyan,

Shri Ravi's point is valid

1. We should definitely intermingle with all castes and communities in this modern world & we should not be seen as being aloof, haughty or overbearing can be a fair expectation

2. But to mix with other castes and communities in terms of giving a clean burial to our identity including traditions is a unfair expectation and elicits a strong No No response


Do you subscribe to the first one or the second one?
 

zebra16

Well-known member
If there is something worse than playing a victim it is to play the role of the advocate of the presumed victim.

People who quote “universal values” “morality” “ethics” etc have an obligation to show the origins of the concept of these values to be outside of the “scriptural teachings” of some community or civilization and was/were an invention or discovery or inference by these social scientists.

People who would like others to draw lessons from the life or teaching or speeches of MLK or BRA or suspect social reformer of TN and the like have to show in the works of their idos that they (their idols) too had the same contempt for their forefathers and ancestors which they wish the supposed traditional brahminists to have here.

People who create opportunity to sing the glories of kazhagam or iyyakiyam have an obligation to show that the NB priests in temples today are in any way better off economically than the anthanars or Brahmin priests who they replaced. A movement does not become a success by replacing one beggar by another.

People who quote manu smrithi and parade it as the most retrograde text ever to be written have an obligation to show the provisions in the manu smrithi whereby a fourth varNa member could become a king and how there have been a plethora of kings and chieftains belonging to that varNato have to have ruled at least a part this country in the absence of such a provision. Why the fourth varNa could not get its act together and banish that abhorrent text forever when their own clansmen were the all powerful kings and chieftains needs to be explained.

People who classed themselves out of guNa theory citing its incapacity to differentiate people based on this theory have hardly any leg to stand on to debunk the supposed superiority of guNa puritans by quoting the same guNa theory.

People who have enacted legally enforceable laws to equality can only appeal or plead for consideration beyond the scope of the law but cannot browbeat or coerce into submission the view points of others who do not wish to walk that extra mile.

People who have debunked all things that they do not agree with as “empty rituals devoid of substance” have an urgent need to introspect themselves as to how they utilize the time freed by non performance of these so called “empty rituals”. Is there a chance that posting in this forum has become a ritual for them which is equally devoid of any substance but only that they probably do not or refuse to realize it as such?

People who try to throw the albatross around the neck of others by trying to invoke the mass guilt feeling of supposed injustices some light years back should study the journey of law of jurisprudence and how far away the current laws have moved from the primitive thinking of holding a society wholly responsible or a particular group wholly responsible for the past maladies and seeking to punish or retribute the present members of a society for the supposed sins of their ancestors.
 

C RAVI

Well-known member
with the corruption and decadency of the mind so deep, how much more into a morass can we get? talk of brahmin unity is but a hollow boast, when within the group the son of one is not good enough for the other's daughter. such is life.


Shri Kunjuppu,

People say that, a human, specially a female species always look for Upward Mobility. And, as such, opt for a guy who has higher profile than the girl herself in all the aspects.

This is what been endorsed by a female member - Amala as well and by few other members, all these days.


Going by the pressing need of Upward Mobility, a girl can choose her guy from any Cate and Religion and only when she does that, she can be considered as Matured & Smart Girl.


In such a case, I wonder, how can you find fault and feel pained by such preferences within the group, as indicated in your statement above (highlighted in bold)?


Does your above highlighted statement reflects your disappointment & contempt for those girls and girls parents who are not willing to accept a guy for his profile, from within the same group?


Or, is that, you don't advice girls to look always only for upward mobility while choosing a guy for her life?

Oh yeah!!! You said that, in Canada/US, even educated and working ladies marry Cab drivers and live happily.

I believe, in the same spirit, you used to advice Brahmin girls in your knows circle, who are all at 30+ of age, to not to ignore possible likeable guys in the marriage market who are below their profile; irrespective of Caste & Religion, as per your convictions.

 
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C RAVI

Well-known member
If there is something worse than playing a victim it is to play the role of the advocate of the presumed victim.

People who quote “universal values” “morality” “ethics” etc have an obligation to show the origins of the concept of these values to be outside of the “scriptural teachings” of some community or civilization and was/were an invention or discovery or inference by these social scientists.

People who would like others to draw lessons from the life or teaching or speeches of MLK or BRA or suspect social reformer of TN and the like have to show in the works of their idos that they (their idols) too had the same contempt for their forefathers and ancestors which they wish the supposed traditional brahminists to have here.

People who create opportunity to sing the glories of kazhagam or iyyakiyam have an obligation to show that the NB priests in temples today are in any way better off economically than the anthanars or Brahmin priests who they replaced. A movement does not become a success by replacing one beggar by another.

People who quote manu smrithi and parade it as the most retrograde text ever to be written have an obligation to show the provisions in the manu smrithi whereby a fourth varNa member could become a king and how there have been a plethora of kings and chieftains belonging to that varNato have to have ruled at least a part this country in the absence of such a provision. Why the fourth varNa could not get its act together and banish that abhorrent text forever when their own clansmen were the all powerful kings and chieftains needs to be explained.

People who classed themselves out of guNa theory citing its incapacity to differentiate people based on this theory have hardly any leg to stand on to debunk the supposed superiority of guNa puritans by quoting the same guNa theory.

People who have enacted legally enforceable laws to equality can only appeal or plead for consideration beyond the scope of the law but cannot browbeat or coerce into submission the view points of others who do not wish to walk that extra mile.

People who have debunked all things that they do not agree with as “empty rituals devoid of substance” have an urgent need to introspect themselves as to how they utilize the time freed by non performance of these so called “empty rituals”. Is there a chance that posting in this forum has become a ritual for them which is equally devoid of any substance but only that they probably do not or refuse to realize it as such?

People who try to throw the albatross around the neck of others by trying to invoke the mass guilt feeling of supposed injustices some light years back should study the journey of law of jurisprudence and how far away the current laws have moved from the primitive thinking of holding a society wholly responsible or a particular group wholly responsible for the past maladies and seeking to punish or retribute the present members of a society for the supposed sins of their ancestors.


:thumb:
 
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