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Solutions to the community's problem of digging its own grave

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Nara

Well-known member
.....arranged IC marriages? all we are saying, as a last resort, if you dont have a spouse in your own caste. and bring up the kids as brahmins, so that your culture is passed on to the next generation. dont cast casteist prejudice on those who do it, and arrange to have your child married to one of scuh. or would you not do that?...
Dear K, there is a strong correlation between the POV expressed on this matter and how far away from India one lives. This serves as easy fodder to be used against us -- you don't know the ground realities, mind your business you BB and now they have a new one RB. But it seems to me, it is this looking in from afar and the benefit of knowledge and experience of the inside as well as the outside that give us unique perspective to understand the irrationality of this zealous resistance to IC/IR, one could even say this resistance is fanatical.

The prospect of a daughter in IC/IR marriage is seen as absolute ruin, humiliating, profoundly dishonorable. She is selfish, she has rejected the family, she does not care for Brahmin values. To them this is nothing short of war, a war of wills. The girl must be obedient and submit to the rules set by the parents when it comes to marriage, or it is defeat. Under these conditions, மனம்போல் மாங்கல்யம் (pun unintended) it is defeat indeed to the girl or to the parents, and the tragic fact is, in either case it is defeat for both.

In most cases the girl in love is not rejecting anything and may in fact end up bringing her children up with the so called Brahmin values than a goody-goody son who gets into an arranged SR/SC marriage and the daughter-in-law does not care about these values.

If one is stuck in "family honor" mentality, it is going to be very hard.

best ...
 

C RAVI

Well-known member
Dear K, there is a strong correlation between the POV expressed on this matter and how far away from India one lives. This serves as easy fodder to be used against us -- you don't know the ground realities, mind your business you BB and now they have a new one RB. But it seems to me, it is this looking in from afar and the benefit of knowledge and experience of the inside as well as the outside that give us unique perspective to understand the irrationality of this zealous resistance to IC/IR, one could even say this resistance is fanatical.

best ...

Shri Nara,

So, TB's who are migrated and settled in Western World have good rational thoughts, up-to-date knowledge and information, ability to weigh things and come to correct conclusions etc..etc..pertaining to position of Brahmins in India/TN, pertaining to the issues & challenges faced by Brahmins dwelling on the ground in India, pertaining to psych with which each community in India behaves carrying the sense of self respect and self dignity while living amidst multiple caste community etc..etc..?

Just because you people are though far away, are well equipped with rationality, capability to understand, capacity to weigh things relevant to India and Indians living in India etc..etc, Because you people are living in Well Developed Western World which you people consider as the Mentor for the whole universe.

But, if we say that Brahmins Living in Ground Reality in India, facing issues/challenges from outside & from within the community, with all the social & political discrimination, with other community looking down upon us etc..etc, and as such Such Brahmins in Brahmins society in India/TN has first hand/self experiences to analyze, realize, weigh things etc and as such are in a better positions to derive a particular conclusion and to take a particular stand for the interest of the Brahmin Community in India, you are finding it as just a fodder to use against you people?

:doh:
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
Post #51:

there is a strong correlation between the POV expressed on this matter and how far away from India one lives. This serves as easy fodder to be used against us -- you don't know the ground realities, mind your business you BB and now they have a new one RB. But it seems to me, it is this looking in from afar and the benefit of knowledge and experience of the inside as well as the outside that give us unique perspective to understand the irrationality of this zealous resistance to IC/IR, one could even say this resistance is fanatical.

It is not so much about your not knowing the ground realities. It is about the influence of the alien culture on you and more so on your children. This is not like the sub-zero temperature which can be experienced only when you are in that environment. We are not Eskimos living in Lapland either not to know what it is like in the Sahara. We also visit those countries of alien culture and see what is there in their culture. If it is inside for you it is outside for us and what is outside happens to be inside for us. So there is no need to claim any superior knowledge about the ground situations. We are as much aware of it as you are. We do understand the need for you to rationalise the IC/IR marriages and that is the reason why we oppose that.

The prospect of a daughter in IC/IR [COLOR=#DA7911 !important]marriage[/COLOR] is seen as absolute ruin, humiliating, profoundly dishonorable. She is selfish, she has rejected the family, she does not care for Brahmin values. To them this is nothing short of war, a war of wills. The girl must be obedient and submit to the rules set by the parents when it comes to marriage, or it is defeat. Under these conditions, மனம்போல் மாங்கல்யம் (pun unintended) it is defeat indeed to the girl or to the parents, and the tragic fact is, in either case it is defeat for both.


Again a complete misunderstanding of facts. The culture is quite different. Those who are sold on the western culture can never understand this. In one culture the girl as well boy once reached the adult stage is on his or her own. If the boy or girl still stick to his/her parents it is considered unusual and a solution is found. In the other culture it is only natural for the girl/boy to be with parents even after becoming an adult, even after settling in work life with a good job etc., until marriage. After marriage it is optional. The underlying reasons are concern for the welfare of the child. To use terms like obedience, submissive, , selfishness etc to explain this may earn a few brownie points from like minded people living in alien culture. It appears you have toned down your language. I remember you reprimanded indian brahmin parents with the words "locking the uteruses of their daughters" or something equivalent to that. No brahmin ever considers that an IC/IR marriage is an absolute ruin. Humiliating - among the family members is a fact. Parents feel sad that the child has taken things in its hands knowing fully well the kind of pain that it causes to the parents. The parents forget the child and there ends the matter. Some parents accept the marriage reluctantly and try to live with the pain as if nothing has happened. There is no defeat or success for any one and it is not a dual. Only the pain and bitterness remains which is avoidable. Understanding this will be difficult for those PIOs because they are still wide-eyed with wonder in the enjoyment of the unrestricted indulgence of the western civilization.


In most cases the girl in love is not rejecting anything and may in fact end up bringing her children up with the so called Brahmin values than a goody-goody son who gets into an arranged SR/SC marriage and the daughter-in-law does not care about these values.


We understand the girl's predicament. She gave in to the pressure exerted by harmones and did some thing but inside her heart knows what is good and what is not. So she would like to give the best to her children until one day her children perhaps does the same that she did to her parents.


If one is stuck in "family honor" mentality, it is going to be very hard.

This is not for brahmins. They have no honour whatsoever left. Their tufts have been cut in public, they have been spat upon in public transport buses, their women folk have been groped by thugs and hooligans in the name of Self-respect struggle etc., Please go and tell this to those who burned the public transport buses and the houses of dalits just because a daughter of their caste ran away with a dalit. You are under a wrong tree. Thanks.
 

vgane

Well-known member
I can give a few examples from our community:

1. Girl studies in a Christian convent school in Chennai...Looked overtly religious (in terms of Hindu prayers/Carnatic Music)..Went for her undergraduation (B.E) to Kochi...Met her Christian Boy Friend studying in same class...Away from parental contact & care...She found a partner in him..Married him

2. Girl studies in a Brahminical school...Went to a good college (B.A)...Started to work in a Chennai based BPO...Fell in love with a NB boy within 6 months of under graduation and married him without informing parents or siblings

3. A father of 3 girls...Elder one just 17+ years...There was a Marwari boy who was working in their home...Suddenly one day without informing parents the girl (a Minor) eloped with this Marwari boy..Father caught hold of the boy & was sent to Jail as he married a minor...As girl turned 18, she was asked for her choice by Police & without batting an eyelid preferred to live with the boy..Both got married against girl's parents wishes

Is there some common thread in these?

In these circumstances what do we decipher...I have not shared the personal trauma of the 3 families

The girls may go for work, may study in a different place or may be exposed to other community boys even while at home..It looks so common, so inane..what is there to discuss?

The exposure however is different...

Digital exposure is also new and different

In these trying circumstances how do we educate the girls?

We cannot have a moral police

Self realisation is very important...As parents are we enlightening our children about the right ways, the right practices, right interactions?

Or we think that is interference in the personal lives for which we have given them independence?

I do not think that parents are taking proactive approach to stem the tide...There is no point brooding later after the incident
 

zebra16

Well-known member
Sri Nara,
Dear K, there is a strong correlation between the POV expressed on this matter and how far away from India one lives. This serves as easy fodder to be used against us -- you don't know the ground realities, mind your business you BB and now they have a new one RB. But it seems to me, it is this looking in from afar and the benefit of knowledge and experience of the inside as well as the outside that give us unique perspective to understand the irrationality of this zealous resistance to IC/IR, one could even say this resistance is fanatical.

The prospect of a daughter in IC/IR marriage is seen as absolute ruin, humiliating, profoundly dishonorable. She is selfish, she has rejected the family, she does not care for Brahmin values. To them this is nothing short of war, a war of wills. The girl must be obedient and submit to the rules set by the parents when it comes to marriage, or it is defeat. Under these conditions, மனம்போல் மாங்கல்யம் (pun unintended) it is defeat indeed to the girl or to the parents, and the tragic fact is, in either case it is defeat for both.

In most cases the girl in love is not rejecting anything and may in fact end up bringing her children up with the so called Brahmin values than a goody-goody son who gets into an arranged SR/SC marriage and the daughter-in-law does not care about these values.

If one is stuck in "family honor" mentality, it is going to be very hard.

best ...

Probably you are not giving adequate importance to the fact that to the average tamil brahmin you are appearing to thrust the change sooner than they desire.

If I am a parent whose children have been married off in the traditional way of SC and SR the worry of IC/IR is pushed to the next generation that is about 25 years away. There is no need and an obvious reluctance to adjust to the changes which appear to be "reformist". A statistics of how many tamil brahmin families remain affected or remain unaffected will indicate the pace with which the change in attitude will occur.

The terroist destruction of 9/11 is more real to you than to us. For us it is an incidence to derive lessons there from. Similarly the atrocities on brahmins by the dravidian goons are a "real" experience for us. For some like you it is just a matter of setting right of presumed wrong doing of the brahmins in the distant past and history waiting to happen.

Only time can heal the wounds. Till then the twain shaln't meet.

Regards
 

ShivKC

Active member
Shri Nara,

So, TB's who are migrated and settled in Western World have good rational thoughts,
:doh:

sh.ravi, this post is not addressed to you. But gave me a lead to share my views on those who browbeats on rationality and seek evidence/proof for every simple thing, at the drop of a hat , in a discussion.

As nelson pass said, we should no more let numbers define audio quality than we would let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines.

they value mona liza by the number of pixels... they rely on titration to rank the best champagne. while a normal person appreciate Bala Murali Krishna , they appreciate the mosquitoes buzz, cos they already got the proof that, its of much a higher pitch.. :)
 

tks

Well-known member
Hard to keep up with the all the posts though some seem want to restate the same points over and over in my view. I hope I am not doing the same with this post:)

I sense some misconceptions in some of the posts being propagated (about human beings in general including TB)

- Following a cultural tradition and wanting future generations to follow similar traditions has nothing to do with narrow mindedness and feeling supreme over others. Wanting to preserve ethnic character (instead of 'ethnic purity' a term used by President Carter in 1975 at a campaign) is not really about discriminating others.

- All groups/communities/citizens with good self esteem have always expressed a view that they are the best. All countries proclaim that they live in the best country. By saying 'they are the best' does not mean that they are saying others are to be treated with contempt.

- There is a world view of scarcity and there is a world view of abundance according Stephen Covey. If one is raised in a world view of scarcity then they tend to become narrow minded and prejudiced towards others. If one contemplates a bit they will find that our world can allow for many to be best in many different traits. Only a narrow minded person will view simple statements by someone of being the best or wanting to be the best in some traits as a supremacist attitude. It is even sillier that some think that they feel most elite by preaching 'how to be liberal' in a 'holier than thou' postings. Let us see the world the way it is - it is actually abundant. Varna concept by itself did not arise out of worldview of narrow mindedness and even Gandhi alluded to this despite fighting what it had become in practice.

- Human beings will always use their power position to go after increased power. This was true yesterday and today. It is true all over the world. The prescription of Brahmin way of life had checks and balances. It is possible 'Brahmins' in another era used their influence for incorrect gains over others. Such a behaviour is common for all human beings but there are consequences. Today's Brahmins do not have any collective power. It is silly to bring up Brahmin supremacy and power in today's world. All that is left are a few who want to maintain their ethnic character. If a Parsi or a Jewish person want to maintain their ethnic character I am not sure why any of us would want to object. Same holds for those who want to see the cultural traditions of Brahmins (however way they define) to benefit their children.

- IC/IR marriages happen because many Brahmin families are ignorant of why they follow a tradition. When a person understand why they are vegetarians and how our traditions are rooted in broad mindedness then they will want a marriage partner from similar background when possible.

- IC/IR marriages by itself do not cause doom and gloom for any community. There are many cases I know where the new unit due to IC/IR marriage actually started following traditions of Brahmins with more vigor and with more understanding.

- If a child has become 30+ and is still not married due to whatever reason the parents are left with few choices. Continue to look for alliance, and broaden the search. The question to be answered is if it is better for the child to stay unmarried or get married to someone of good character even if they are not from one's community.

Let me share a few closing thoughts. My children are born US Citizens but they are not raised in any alien culture. Au Contraire, they embrace all symbols of our tradition with proper understanding of what those symbolism means. It is this understanding that they sense when they see the symbols (Pottu in forehead, Poonal and doing Sandhyavandhanam to name a few ) Often when we visit Chennai or certain places they are kind of surprised at how many of their cousins do not have basic understanding of our traditions. Chennai seem alien culture to us in that sense and I am not kidding.

We have made adaptation. If my son or I go to the beach for a swim we take out the Poonal out and put it back properly after shower.

I do not know if they or I will be able to find true Guna Brahmanas in TB community for them (preferably raised in US). Only time will tell.
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
Dear tks,

Your post #57:

You have summed up so beautifully everything that I others have been saying here all these days. Thank you.
 

Nara

Well-known member
Probably you are not giving adequate importance to the fact that to the average tamil brahmin you are appearing to thrust the change sooner than they desire....
Dear Narayan, what my convictions are is well known, if I harbor any illusions of meeting of the minds with those who see IC/IR in terms of honor, defeat, obedience, etc., then I am not merely overly optimistic, but an incorrigible fool. I know I will be as far away intellectually as is possible with what is represented by the following:

Highlighted from post #50:
  • Particularly the amount of pain it brings on the parents and the devastation it leaves behind in the family.
  • Every case is not a last resort case. It is not as easy as that. It requires a tremendous amount of eating of crow.
  • What is needed is obedience and enforcement.
  • The reform brigade has accepted defeat already

However, those with young girls face the real possibility of IC/IR. My comments are directed at them in the hope that not all of them will subscribe to the binary logic exemplified above. Those who nurse the kind of mindset revealed in post #50, will face the real danger of the kind of surreptitiousness vgane points out in post 54. But, those who are smart will start developing trust and respect with their teenage girls. This is not easy, can't be dictated top down. My hope is what I am expressing here will make sense to them.

Also, trying to push the worry down to the next generation seems to be a very selfish thing to do, no?

regards ...
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
I can give a few examples from our community:

1. Girl studies in a Christian convent school in Chennai...Looked overtly religious (in terms of Hindu prayers/Carnatic Music)..Went for her undergraduation (B.E) to Kochi...Met her Christian Boy Friend studying in same class...Away from parental contact & care...She found a partner in him..Married him
2. Girl studies in a Brahminical school...Went to a good college (B.A)...Started to work in a Chennai based BPO...Fell in love with a NB boy within 6 months of under graduation and married him without informing parents or siblings
3. A father of 3 girls...Elder one just 17+ years...There was a Marwari boy who was working in their home...Suddenly one day without informing parents the girl (a Minor) eloped with this Marwari boy..Father caught hold of the boy & was sent to Jail as he married a minor...As girl turned 18, she was asked for her choice by Police & without batting an eyelid preferred to live with the boy..Both got married against girl's parents wishes

Is there some common thread in these?
In these circumstances what do we decipher...I have not shared the personal trauma of the 3 families
The girls may go for work, may study in a different place or may be exposed to other community boys even while at home..It looks so common, so inane..what is there to discuss?
The exposure however is different...
Digital exposure is also new and different
In these trying circumstances how do we educate the girls?
We cannot have a moral police
Self realisation is very important...As parents are we enlightening our children about the right ways, the right practices, right interactions?
Or we think that is interference in the personal lives for which we have given them independence?
I do not think that parents are taking proactive approach to stem the tide...There is no point brooding later after the incident

Vgane:

The issue is basically the way the children are brought up. The kind of value time parents spend with children right from the childhood when the child starts going to school. When my school going daughter showed signs of disinterest and resistance to the usual morning prayer recitation before the kuththuvilakku in the perumAl sannidhi along with her mother, it took a good one hour of conversation with her for me to know what was happening. Her teachers and some of the class mates were repeatedly asking her why we have so many gods. One god for getting wealth, two for getting good education, one for health etc etc., The girl was unable to find an answer. Once the problem was understood by us the parents, we told her how to handle these questions. As she moved further and reached the secondary school level there was this idea thrown at her that everyone has the same color blood running in their veins and so everyone is equal. When this question was handled we could show her how much of a simplistic assumption has gone into this assumption. The anxiety vanished once things were explained.

When I was going through the archives here i found some one had suggested a class for every girl and boy just after they finish their college education to be addressed by 1)learned elders who will speak to them about our culture, values, religious faith etc., how and why they are superior 2)Doctors/consultants/counsellors who will talk to them about their physical system including the changes that occur as they grow, the impact of hormones, dangers of a casual but intense relationship etc.,They will teach even what a handshake which lingers for a few seconds too long means, how to identify a casanova and handle a working relationship with him in the work place etc.3)Experts in finance about savings and investments. This will be on the lines of a finishing school. They will learn essentials to face life. It is a good idea and can be tried.

If brahmins, wherever they are can organize such classes every year to the eligible youngsters through their numerous, sabhas, kalakshepa goshtis, samajams, bhajanai matoms, temple committees and through the ******* they can save many girl/boy going in the wrong path. Forget about the diaspora as they are deeply mired in the heady stupor of alien cultures. They have to gain a lot of energy to reach an escape velocity which is just next to impossible. They will come like they do here and offer quickfix solutions which are suitable only to their children living in those countries. Politely listening to them and quickly forgetting what they said and keeping away from them is the best option.

Another most important point is that you(the parents) should yourself live a decent and good life. If you smoke a cigarette first thing in the morning, nurse a peg of whiskey before dinner, forgot completely that piece of thread called poonal, never go anywhere near the perumal sannidhi, has no sense of what brahmins call எச்சில் or பத்து and go about mixing everything around freely, do not express restraint with your language and emotions then you lose not only your right to expect anything from your children, you also lose a lot of esteem and your advices and words will be treated with the contempt that they deserve. You can cover up the absence of real love and respect for you by flowery language like "my love for my children was just unconditional" like my india born(he was born in coonoor in the Nilgiris) Anglo Indian friend who had never visited England used to drop the words "back home in London" every now and then in the conversation to cover up the abject poverty in which he lived.

If inspite of all your efforts, IC/IR marriages do happen stoically put up with them without accepting them as normal. It can not be business as usual after an IC/IR marriage because the basic fabric of understanding,trust, love and affection are all irreparably damaged. If the IC marriage is a success let them live happily. If it fails let them handle it. Don't take it on your head as a problem to be solved by you. If help is asked for extend it. The other children in the family will atleast learn necessary lessons. Thanks.

Cheers.
 
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C RAVI

Well-known member
Vgane:

The issue is basically the way the children are brought up. The kind of value time parents spend with children right from the childhood when the child starts going to school. When my school going daughter showed signs of disinterest and resistance to the usual morning prayer recitation before the kuththuvilakku in the perumAl sannidhi along with her mother, it took a good one hour of conversation with her for me to know what was happening. Her teachers and some of the class mates were repeatedly asking her why we have so many gods. One god for getting wealth, two for getting good education, one for health etc etc., The girl was unable to find an answer. Once the problem was understood by us the parents, we told her how to handle these questions. As she moved further and reached the secondary school level there was this idea thrown at her that everyone has the same color blood running in their veins and so everyone is equal. When this question was handled we could show her how much of a simplistic assumption has gone into this assumption. The anxiety vanished once things were explained.

When I was going through the archives here i found some one had suggested a class for every girl and boy just after they finish their college education to be addressed by 1)learned elders who will speak to them about our culture, values, religious faith etc., how and why they are superior 2)Doctors/consultants/counsellors who will talk to them about their physical system including the changes that occur as they grow, the impact of hormones, dangers of a casual but intense relationship etc.,They will teach even what a handshake which lingers for a few seconds too long means, how to identify a casanova and handle a working relationship with him in the work place etc.3)Experts in finance about savings and investments. This will be on the lines of a finishing school. They will learn essentials to face life. It is a good idea and can be tried.

If brahmins, wherever they are can organize such classes every year to the eligible youngsters through their numerous, sabhas, kalakshepa goshtis, samajams, bhajanai matoms, temple committees and through the ******* they can save many girl/boy going in the wrong path. Forget about the diaspora as they are deeply mired in the heady stupor of alien cultures. They have to gain a lot of energy to reach an escape velocity which is just next to impossible. They will come like they do here and offer quickfix solutions which are suitable only to their children living in those countries. Politely listening to them and quickly forgetting what they said and keeping away from them is the best option.

Another most important point is that you(the parents) should yourself live a decent and good life. If you smoke a cigarette first thing in the morning, nurse a peg of whiskey before dinner, forgot completely that piece of thread called poonal, never go anywhere near the perumal sannidhi, has no sense of what brahmins call எச்சில் or பத்து and go about mixing everything around freely, do not express restraint with your language and emotions then you lose not only your right to expect anything from your children, you also lose a lot of esteem and your advices and words will be treated with the contempt that they deserve. You can cover up the absence of real love and respect for you by flowery language like "my love for my children was just unconditional" like my india born(he was born in coonoor in the Nilgiris) Anglo Indian friend who had never visited England used to drop the words "back home in London" every now and then in the conversation to cover up the abject poverty in which he lived.

If inspite of all your efforts, IC/IR marriages do happen stoically put up with them without accepting them as normal. It can not be business as usual after an IC/IR marriage because the basic fabric of understanding,trust, love and affection are all irreparably damaged. If the IC marriage is a success let them live happily. If it fails let them handle it. Don't take it on your head as a problem to be solved by you. If help is asked for extend it. The other children in the family will atleast learn necessary lessons. Thanks.

Cheers.

:thumb:
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
... When my school going daughter showed signs of disinterest and resistance to the usual morning prayer recitation before the kuththuvilakku in the perumAl sannidhi along with her mother, it took a good one hour of conversation with her for me to know what was happening. ...

..., never go anywhere near the perumal sannidhi, ...

.

... and no siva or muruga. right and thank you.

atleast we smarthas think more inclusively than you. and also, i wonder who is more bigoted here with all this preachings. thank you sir.
 
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Nara

Well-known member
In the U.S. you will often see proud display of the Confederate flag, especially in the South. This flag is seen by most African Americans as a symbol of oppression, a reminder to the days of slavery. But these Whites in the South who display it defend it saying the flag represents their heritage. Thoughtful Whites everywhere disagree, they understand the flag represents racism and hatred and that there is nothing to be proud of about this flag.

There is a parallel between displaying the Confederate flag and the defence of Varna and the notion of Guna Brahmana. Varna is less about heritage or culture and more about oppression and hatred. Reading Babasaheb Ambedkar's pamphlet Annihilation of Caste and his rebuttal to Gandhi's criticism of the pamphlet will help understand the profoundly oppressive nature of the Varna system. His criticism includes the so called guna based Varna and shows how ridiculous the very idea is and why such a "reform" is impossible. Varna, whether birth based or guna based, is a blot, nothing to be proud of.
 

C RAVI

Well-known member
... and i think, is the applause, also because, you being a smartha, they wont give their daughters to you for marriage? just curious. that is all, if you dont mind.

:pound:


Not like that Shri.Kunjuppu...Not about me being Smartha and not getting a girl from Vaishnava family, unaware of which I have applauded.

It was for the gist of the post.


A Vaishnava would naturally talk about things related to Vaishnavism and so does the Smartha.

When their children happen to fall in love with any Tamil Brahmin (Vaishnava or Smartha) usually there is no serious issues and problems from the parents side. If it all there is a problem, that's what we should avoid and counting on Brahmins to be all inclusive, willingly.

I have no specific complaints on Vaishnavas when my own Smartha Intellectuals don't consider me as a valuable product in the marriage market :pound:


PS. You can be rest assured that this loser will not hate Brahmins & Brahmins community because of this and would stop voicing in favor of the community... :). Sorry for the disappointment, if at all you been :)
 
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kunjuppu

Well-known member
dear amala,

it is really sad that the prejudices are sooo deeply embedded here, that even within a common tambram platform, we have members, openly advocating stratification within tambram community in the name of blood purity - vaishnavaite blood cannot mingle with that of the smartha.

not realizing how hurtful this is to hear for smarthas, and they speak of the corruption and decadency of foreign residing tambrams. separate but equal? we have heard that before.

with the corruption and decadency of the mind so deep, how much more into a morass can we get? talk of brahmin unity is but a hollow boast, when within the group the son of one is not good enough for the other's daughter. such is life.

really i wonder, how many sri vaishnavites here would openly come and agree to arrange marriage their daughters to smarthas. vaagmi, i suspect will have plenty of company.
 

prasad1

Well-known member
A relative of mine married a SV brahmin girl. The father of the bride refused to come to the marriage, and kept his wife from the marriage. The girls's brother officiated in the marriage in Chennai. Now they have 2 boys, the girl's mother visits the family but father still has not relented. It is almost 8 years since their marriage.

Are we talking of Brahmin Unity?

We have a friend from Madurai, a liberated soul, does not differentiate between shiva, Vishnu, or any other representation of God.
She has not seen Madurai Meenakshi Temple as her father is still opposed to going to that Temple.
 

Nara

Well-known member
....not realizing how hurtful this is to hear for smarthas, and they speak of the corruption and decadency of foreign residing tambrams. separate but equal? we have heard that before.

...
The funny thing about this preservation of culture and values is that it has to mean Smarthas are out of bounds for the SV's. How else can they preserve their own SV culture and values? If the Smarthas demand the SV's must be broadminded enough to accept Smartha suitors, why must the broadmindedness not extend beyond B's? Why can't the Smarthas, and SV's too, be broadminded enough to accept NB's? Too many uncomfortable questions, isn't? That is why I say, ditch SV, ditch Smartha, let us all be humans. Then again, the prime directive is, caste purity is supreme, caste culture and values must be preserved at all cost, otherwise it is eat crow time.....
 

tks

Well-known member
In the U.S. you will often see proud display of the Confederate flag, especially in the South. This flag is seen by most African Americans as a symbol of oppression, a reminder to the days of slavery. But these Whites in the South who display it defend it saying the flag represents their heritage. Thoughtful Whites everywhere disagree, they understand the flag represents racism and hatred and that there is nothing to be proud of about this flag.

There is a parallel between displaying the Confederate flag and the defence of Varna and the notion of Guna Brahmana. Varna is less about heritage or culture and more about oppression and hatred. Reading Babasaheb Ambedkar's pamphlet Annihilation of Caste and his rebuttal to Gandhi's criticism of the pamphlet will help understand the profoundly oppressive nature of the Varna system. His criticism includes the so called guna based Varna and shows how ridiculous the very idea is and why such a "reform" is impossible. Varna, whether birth based or guna based, is a blot, nothing to be proud of.


Varna is not caste ..just like Atma is not soul ...

One can have thoughtless equivalencies like the one above just to feel liberal.

Even today whites in USA still control most of the power. The blacks are oppressed in many areas. The confederate flag in this context is a symbol of racism.

People calling themselves birthbased brahmins were always a minority and today they are not only minority but have no power as a community. Many people calling themselves as brahmins are systematically oppressed who either flee or put up with the abuse because they also happen to be poor.

Concept of Varna is not an exclusive intellectual property of Brahmins even in the past era.

The comparison of their views to confederate flag shows the nature of thinking and so I know it is pointless to debate further.
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
... and no siva or muruga. right and thank you.

atleast we smarthas think more inclusively than you. and also, i wonder who is more bigoted here with all this preachings. thank you sir.

Dear Kunjuppu,

I never thought you have this face too. Where did I say anything about smarthas in my post? Please quote the message number and the words here. If you can not do that you need to apologise to me. Please at least let me know the thought process which led you to the conclusion that I am begoted. I just mentioned perumal sannidhi. It is a neutral word. It is used by smarthas too in my district to indicate the place in a brahmin's house where the pictures of Gods are displayed and a kuthuvilakku is usually lit every day morning and evening. Some people keep the vigrahas and salagramam too there and do daily puja there. Then it becomes a puja almirah or pooja room or simply pooja ullu. Smartha's in Madurai wherefrom I hail use the term freely. I have never heard them using the term Siva Sannidhi or Easwaran Sannidhi or Murugan sannidhi even though Siva or Murugan may the God they may be actually worshipping-not vishnu. It requires a peculiar mind set to find fault with this word perumal sannidhi to accuse me of bigotry. You have that and that comes as a surprise to me. Surprise, because you have all along been lecturing from roof top about broadmindedness to accept IC/IR marriages. And take it from me my dear friend, I do not mind my children marrying an Iyer boy or a girl. I will be upset only if the marriage is a IC/IR marriage. Now that I have said this, please let me know where you are going to hide your face. And certainly I expect an apology from you-that is if you are a honest gentleman who has learnt something from your present phirangi neighbours if not from the pattars from your neighbourhood when you were in India. I look forward to your reply.
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
... and i think, is the applause, also because, you being a smartha, they wont give their daughters to you for marriage? just curious. that is all, if you dont mind.

Dear Kunjuppu,

This obsession with Iyengars and particularly with Iyengar daughters is funny. Is it the result of any unrequited affair or the heady effect of the song "அய்யங்காரு வீட்டு அழகே....". There is nothing so special about these Iyengar girls. They are just like any other brahmin girls. Your curiosity got bleached and it is showing!!:wof:
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
dear amala,

it is really sad that the prejudices are sooo deeply embedded here, that even within a common tambram platform, we have members, openly advocating stratification within tambram community in the name of blood purity - vaishnavaite blood cannot mingle with that of the smartha.not realizing how hurtful this is to hear for smarthas, and they speak of the corruption and decadency of foreign residing tambrams. separate but equal? we have heard that before.

Again Kunjuppu you are misinterpreting my post and putting words and intentions into that. If you think you are very smart and I am a fool you will be disappointed. If you continue with this kind of nonsense I will have to report you to Sri Praveen.

with the corruption and decadency of the mind so deep, how much more into a morass can we get? talk of brahmin unity is but a hollow boast, when within the group the son of one is not good enough for the other's daughter. such is life.

Yeah This is exactly what passed through my mind when I read your last three posts here. Think about what you have started here. I pity you.

really i wonder, how many sri vaishnavites here would openly come and agree to arrange marriage their daughters to smarthas. vaagmi, i suspect will have plenty of company.

Vaagmi has given his views about iyengar iyer marriages. I do not understand why only the daughters? There I discern the insipient chauvinist who had been wearing a cloak along. If you expect there will be plenty of company for vaagmi that would mean vaagmi is far more acceptable to the community here than Kunjuppu. Kunjuppu, you certainly owe me an apology. Come on,be quick with it and.... yes :peace:.
 

Brahmanyan

Well-known member
Shri Brahmanyan,

Your post no.22 is highly admirable and is very soothing.

But, I would like to express my views on the quoted statement of yours. -


Every community having been into existence and with folks being born in that existing community, is continuing to identify themselves in the society, associating themselves in their exclusive cloister. BUT, it is only just that they all belong to that exclusive cloister that takes pride in its existence, following its tradition/custom/practices, continuing to prosper its cloister etc.etc and in No Way to isolate themselves from each other out of own perceived superiority and attempting to detach itself from the concept of Unity in Diversity in Democratic India.

All the community people today respect each other irrespective of caste and religion While Holding love & respect towards one's own community. All the community go to the maximum extent to live in line with the sense of Humanity, Compassion and Unity while continuing to stick to the prosperity of their own community in the same intensity.

When Brahmins wish to take pride expecting unity among Brahmins in Brahmin's Exclusive Cloister because of Birth While continuing to live with the sense of Humanity, Compassion and Unity with all other Caste and Religious community, why that such an attempt gonna Ruin them??



Dear Sri Ravi,

I am with you in all your views except that I am a believer in dissolving our exclusiveness in the society in which
we live, just as the Parsees wanted to "mix like sugar in the milk" when they entered India. On the other hand history has shown, living in Cloistered cultural isolation (to which previous generations had consigned them), Jews could never become truly part of the society in Europe. They have to suffer isolation of suspicion and envy. I know the examples may not be correct, but to show similarity of circumstances I used them.

Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 
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