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Shiva and Vishnu

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Visalakshi Ramani

Well-known member
A classic story by Ramakrishna parama hamsa to show what happens
when knowledge VS faith.

இடைப்பெண்.



அந்தண குரு ஒருவருக்குத் தவறாமல் பால்
அனுதினம் வழங்கும் ஒரு சிறு இடைப்பெண்;
ஆற்றைத் தாண்டி வரவேண்டி இருந்ததால்,
ஏற்றுக்கொண்ட நேரத்துக்கு வருவதே இல்லை!

ஒரு நாள் கூறினார் அந்த குரு அவளிடம்,
“சம்சாரக் கடலையே நம்மால் தாண்ட முடியும்;
ஒரு ஆற்றை உன்னால் தாண்ட முடியாதா?
சரசரவென்று நீ நீர்மேல் நடந்து வருவாய்!”

குருவிடம் முழு நம்பிக்கை கொண்ட பெண்
மறுநாள் முதல் விரைந்து வரலானாள்;
குரு கேட்டார் அப்பெண்ணிடம், “இப்போது
வருகின்றாயே நேரத்தோடு! எப்படி?” என்று.

“நீங்கள் சொன்னபடியே வருகின்றேன் ஐயா;
நீரைக் கடக்க நான் ஓடத்துக்கு நிற்பதில்லை!
ஓடத்துக்கு நின்றால் பொழுது ஆகிவிடும்;
நடந்து வருவதால் எனக்கு நேரம் மிச்சம்”

விக்கித்துப் போன குரு அவளிடம்,
“விரைந்து நடந்து காட்டு” என்று கூற,
விறு விறு என்று நீர் மேல் நடந்தாள்
வியத்தகு நம்பிக்கையுடன் அந்தப் பெண்.

திரும்பிப் பார்த்தவள் திகைத்து நின்றாள்.
தூக்கிய வஸ்திரத்துடன், நீரின் மேலே
நடக்க முடியாமல் நிற்கும் குருவினை.
நாவில் மட்டும் பகவான் நாமங்கள்!

“உங்கள் கடவுளின்மேல், குருவாகிய
உங்களுக்கே நம்பிக்கை இல்லையா?
நனைந்து விடுமோ வஸ்திரம் என்று
நினைந்து அஞ்சுகின்றீரே!” என்றாள்!

நினைத்தது நடக்கும், கேட்டது கிடைக்கும்,
மனத்தில் முழுதாக நம்பினால் மட்டுமே!
போதனை அனைவருக்கும் செய்யும் குரு
போதனை அன்று சிறுமியிடம் பெற்றார்.

வாழ்க வளமுடன்,
விசாலாக்ஷி ரமணி.
 

Visalakshi Ramani

Well-known member
When knowledge VS Faith...

image6.png


THE MILK VENDOR.

A famous guru bought milk from a young girl who lived across a river. Everyday she would come late, as she has to wait for the boatman to cross the river.

The Guru asked her one day, when the people can cross the ocean of SamsArA, why she could not cross a mere river, just by walking on it!

From the next day the girl started coming very early. The Guru asked her the reason. She said that she did not wait for the boat man any more but just walked across the river as told by him.

They both set out to walk on the river. The girl turned back and found the Guru with his garment rolled up so that it would not get wet.

She wondered aloud whether he lacked the confidence in his own words and was afraid that his clothes would get wet?

On that day, the Guru learnt a valuable lesson from that poor, innocent and ignorant milk vending girl.
 

sangom

Well-known member
Dear Sangom ji,


One may emerge a victor in a religious debate of the Advaita Vs Vishistadvaita kind but the person who ultimately wears the crown is a person who has faith.. who might not have even participated in the debate.

Smt. Renuka,

None of us -those exulting after wearing the crown of faith as also those who say what they truly feel on the basis of their inherent intelligence - knows who wins after death. But in this world, and between the different Uttara meemaamsa philosophies, it looks (again) to me, that visishtadvaita has had its victory over advaita, going by the continuous debates between scholars of the two sects.

Show me one person who has ultimately worn the crown, please, through faith and faith alone! But not the 'likes' obtained in this thread or something like that.


 
OP
OP
sravna

sravna

Well-known member
I understand your POV.

Some can accept it I suppose. That is why when some zealots make those comments I ignore them, but when a person of your stature says it I would like to understand the reason. LOL

Dear Shri Prasad,

I know I do not have any malicious intention in starting this topic. It is only to try to understand better the rationale being what is said in the scriptures. There is so much that is said in the scriptures. This is just one of those that was said. I am of the conviction that by arriving at a good understanding we will not be denigrating one and extolling the other but better appreciate that there is nothing that differentiates in that way. That is the faith I have in the balance in the scriptures and that balance I think should be evident if one really puts in a sincere effort to understand the scriptures.
 
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tbs

Well-known member
Dear Sangom ji,


One may emerge a victor in a religious debate of the Advaita Vs Vishistadvaita kind but the person who ultimately wears the crown is a person who has faith.. who might not have even participated in the debate.

hi renu,
golden words...im silent...i dont know much abt advaita/visistadvaita...im a silent reader....lol
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member


Show me one person who has ultimately worn the crown, please, through faith and faith alone!

Dear Sangom ji,

How can I show you who wore the crown when I am a mere mortal?

That is one question only God can answer.

I have no access to God's data base on who has worn the crown.

I do not want to give examples from scriptures by naming Bhakhtas of yesteryugas..but knowledge and practical application is different.

I have seen many people in my life who do not really read anything on religion but speak words full of wisdom that actually sound very upanishadic.

Faith can open up the portal of knowledge internally and these people acquire knowledge by revelation from God.

So in other words ..what others spend year of mugging up and memorizing mantras and shlokas etc..some people with intense faith actually get downloaded with spiritual knowledge direct from the website of God.

The highest form of knowledge is most of the while a revelation.
 
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renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Dear Sangom ji,

I went to sleep last night thinking of what you wrote about the whole Vishnu- Shiva churning of the sea episode.

I was wondering..if you felt that Shiva was a better divinity than Vishnu doesn't that contradict Advaita itself?

How can we praise Shiva alone and find fault with Vishnu or vice versa..it's like liking only our right eye and disliking our left eye when we actually need both for binocular vision.
 

sangom

Well-known member
Dear Sangom ji,

How can I show you who wore the crown when I am a mere mortal?

That is one question only God can answer.

I have no access to God's data base on who has worn the crown.

I do not want to give examples from scriptures by naming Bhakhtas of yesteryugas..but knowledge and practical application is different.

I have seen many people in my life who do not really read anything on religion but speak words full of wisdom that actually sound very upanishadic.

Faith can open up the portal of knowledge internally and these people acquire knowledge by revelation from God.

So in other words ..what others spend year of mugging up and memorizing mantras and shlokas etc..some people with intense faith actually get downloaded with spiritual knowledge direct from the website of God.

The highest form of knowledge is most of the while a revelation.

Smt. Renukaji,

If you say "How can I show you who wore the crown when I am a mere mortal? That is one question only God can answer. I have no access to God's data base on who has worn the crown." it means that what you said earlier is speculation — to the effect that those who have faith are the ultimate winners. I don't know what kind or type of winning you are referring to, but AFA we human mortals are concerned everything ends with death; also, what, if anything, lies beyond death, is beyond human knowledge (at least as of now).

I have also come across some old people who were practically illiterate but had a fund of wisdom in their words. And I think they got it by keen observation of the ways of the world in a somewhat static social surroundings; whether their wisdom would have served a fast-changing society like that of India today, I cannot say. As for spiritual knowledge, I have not come across any example.

Dear Sangom ji,

I went to sleep last night thinking of what you wrote about the whole Vishnu- Shiva churning of the sea episode.

I was wondering..if you felt that Shiva was a better divinity than Vishnu doesn't that contradict Advaita itself?

How can we praise Shiva alone and find fault with Vishnu or vice versa..it's like liking only our right eye and disliking our left eye when we actually need both for binocular vision.

When the thread was started then itself I had cautioned Shri Sravna about the futility of such enquiries and discussions because, in my view, the shaivites & vaishnavites fought bitterly over the superiority of their respective gods in a manner very similar to the two illiterate farmers on the way to market fought about one getting a cow and the other creating a tiger by magic which would eat away that cow, etc.

I have only furnished one or two instances from our scriptures which throw light on the various facets of the two deities created by the priesthood and which have become so deep-rooted in the minds of a people who are conditioned into believing anything which the priesthood would pronounce, because of the stringent caste system which has been prevailing for thousands of years. There may be hundreds, if not thousands of similar or different references to shiva and vishnu in our different scriptures and discussing all these will be utterly futile and will serve no useful purpose; so is this thread as well, imho.

I do not think that I have compromised advaita or any other philosophy (FYI, I am not a strict follower of Sankara's advaita also) by my said post. I wrote that if an ordinary person happens to read (and understand) those verses in Vaalmeeki Raamaayana, he is likely to feel that shiva, and not vishnu, acted as the protector of the universe. As for me, my eyes have been given intact by the fact that my past karmas did not warrant any defects in them while the same past Karmas have caused a very unhealthy body. shiva or vishnu do not enter this aspect.

Hope my position is clear now.
 
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