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Shabarimala

#1
Do you all not think that the way the Kerala Government has blown the whole Shabarimala issue way out of proportion by hurting the sentiments of the Devotees. Yes, there is a verdict by the Honourable Supreme court, but can such decision be implemented overnight when over for 100 of years these Practices has been carried over, don't you think the society and the Government could have given space and time for people to adjust to such diktats may be 2 years time. Has sentiments no values. At the end of the day, don't you feel that society has got divided and especially within Hindus, second between Female Hindus and Male Hindu. Can the situation be corrected without hurting the sentiments of all Hindu brother and sisters?
 
#2
Ramesh, Yes I agree with your point. It may be a Supreme Court but does it really have a right to change the traditions and customs in our Hindu temples?
Has the Court interfered with any other religious institution in the past like this?
 
#3
The judges sitting in their ivory towers in New Delhi probably badly need an eye-opening tutorial on values, customs, practices and principles prevailing south of the Vindhya mountains, as noted researcher, author, lecturer and defender of Sanskrit Rajiv Malhotra says soberly and cogently in his attention-compelling video.

It might well be that in New Delhi the prevailing atmosphere is: "Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise."

To the pertinent question, "Has the Court interfered with any other religious institution in the past like this?" the answer might well be. "It simply dares not. If it did, it might well be drummed out of office, tarred and feathered."

S Narayanaswamy Iyer
 
#4
When so many court orders have not been implemented in its true sprit, it is unfair on the part of the state government taking shelter under court orders and implementing it in its own style
 

Brahmanyan

Well-known member
#5
The High Court of Kerala has gone through all relevant details in a PIL filed by S.Mahendran Vs The Secretary Travancore Devaswam Board....5 April 1991. I give below the relevant portions of conclusions, copied from their verdict by the bench consisting of their Lordships Justice K. Paripoornan and Justice K.B.Marar .



"Our conclusions are as follows :

(1) The restriction imposed on women aged above 10 and below 50 from trekking the holy hills of Sabarimala and offering worship at Sabarimala Shrine is in accordance with the usage prevalent from time immemorial.

(2) Such restriction imposed by the Devaswom Board is not violative of Articles 15, 25 and 26 of the Constitution of India.

(3) Such restriction is also not violative of the provisions of Hindu Place of Public Worship (Authorisation of Entry) Act, 1965 since there is no restriction between one section and another section or between one class and another class among the Hindus in the matter of entry to a temple whereas the prohibition is only in respect of women of a particular age group and not women as a class.

45. In the light of the aforesaid conclusions we direct the first respondent, the Travancore Devaswom Board, not to permit women above the age of 10 and below the age of 50 to trek the holy hills of Sabarimala in connection with the pilgrimage to the Sabarimala temple and from offering worship at Sabarimala Shrine during any period of the year. We also direct the 3rd respondent, Government of Kerala, to render all necessary assistance inclusive of police and to see that the direction which we have issued to the Devaswom Board is implemented and complied with.

46. Before parting with the case we wish to express our sincere gratitude to Sri P. Balagangadhara Menon, counsel for petitioner, for the able guidance which we obtained from him. He had spared no pains in placing all the relevant materials including the available literature on the matter in controversy.

47. In our order dt. 3-10-1990 we had made it clear that the entire expenses of the petitioner including counsel's fee as fixed by this Court shall be borne by the Travancore Devaswom Board since the petitioner has initiated these proceedings to set at rest a controversy in larger public interest. Sri Balagangadhara Menon made a fervent appeal to us to exonerate him from accepting any fee in this case since he has only assisted the court in a public interest litigation. In view of that request we are not making any direction as to costs.

The original petition is disposed of as above."

Full verdict is available in the following weblink:
https://indiankanoon.org/doc/1915943/
(AIR 1993 Ker 42)

Brahmanyan
Bangalore.
 

CHANDRU1849

Well-known member
#6
The reality is Hindus are not a single lot and hence the opposition is restricted to the concerned area only.

This is very well known in Kerala, especially the Communists.
 

KRN

Active member
#7
The judges sitting in their ivory towers.....eye-opening tutorial..............soberly and cogently.....attention-compelling....
"Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise."
..............drummed out of office, tarred and feathered....

S Narayanaswamy Iyer
Sir,
Your command on the English language is superb. Nice reading your messages. I read a few of your messages about a month ago and was wondering why you suddenly stopped writing. Welcome back.
 

KRN

Active member
#8
Do you all not think that the way the Kerala Government has blown the whole Shabarimala issue way out of proportion by hurting the sentiments of the Devotees. Yes, there is a verdict by the Honourable Supreme court, but can such decision be implemented overnight when over for 100 of years these Practices has been carried over, don't you think the society and the Government could have given space and time for people to adjust to such diktats may be 2 years time. Has sentiments no values. At the end of the day, don't you feel that society has got divided and especially within Hindus, second between Female Hindus and Male Hindu. Can the situation be corrected without hurting the sentiments of all Hindu brother and sisters?
I feel that the Kerala Govt misjudged the extent of likely opposition to the move. Perhaps they thought that as a pro-women gesture, at least the entire womenfolk would align with them. Your assessment that the society is divided between male and female hindus is not correct. Huge numbers of women can be seen at the forefront of all agitations opposing to this move.
 

CHANDRU1849

Well-known member
#9
This incident proves the followers of Hinduism in Kerala is divided vertically between serious believers and liberals. If this is going to be successful, we may expect more changes in the days to come.
 
#10
Appreciate the frank views and I am happy to note that people, in general, agree that Poor Devotees are made to suffer at the behest of the people sitting in Delhi who make rules which hurts the sentiments of crores of Ayyappa devotees. Revolution does not happen overnight, one has to win the hearts and minds of people in a true democratic society.
 
#11
Dear Sri KRN

Am considerably humbled by your effusive praise, deserved or undeserved. You remark, "(I) was wondering why you suddenly stopped writing."

What can I possibly say without perhaps sticking my neck out?

When a Calpurnian "teachers' pet" (who was neither a Tamil nor a Brahmin but has a prae-nomen resembling Lord Parasuraama's sainted slain mother -- call her "A") boldly trumpeted to the world that every single post of mine was a blatant blazing example of utter lack of integrity, my polite protestations of injury and innocence resulted in my being rusticated and my wings sliced off with scimitars, like Jadaayu's in the ithihaasam. Only, I did not die.

My crime? I had queried the veracity of a "true" eye-witness story by a self-styled humorist that a foreign-born one-year-old child brought to India to witness a sacred kumbha-ahishegam of a Hindu temple has asked its mother loudly why the Brahmin priests at the peak of the gopuram pouring libation of consecrated water on the kalashams were clad in diapers -- presumably instead of boots, suits, coats and ties.

A more recent incident was when A's twin Calpurnian "teachers' pet" (whose prae-nomen resembled that of Ayodhya chakravarthi Dasaratha's eldest daughter-in-law -- call her "B") gleefully tarred me as a cow that had run amok (mad), and announced that doctors in Malaysia like A are the best to spot amok men. At that, A exclaimed: "Mooooo! Cow Catcher here." B followed up with: "Cow Catcher tied the Cow in a tight spot by a Cow-Hitch. Amok cow sure to develop Mad Cow disease as well? And cow thought it had the last laugh! What do you call a laughing cow? Laughing stock! Jai ho(ly) Cow!!."

My appeal for redress and restitution was sent to a staff member some four months ago. Todate Homer has not nodded -- neither acknowledgement nor reply.

.S Narayanaswamy Iyer
 
#12
My only prayer is that traditions must prevail over court or any law. If women in menstrual age wants to pray, then they can pray in privacy of their homes. But mingling with Ayyapa devotees is not fair. Similarly men also must satisfy their conscience as to the vrattam undertaken by them and maintain the same until they return home after darshan.
Dr B Ashok
 
#13
as rightly pointed out by asok not many men observe 41 days vratham. if women not allowed entry simply because they are unable to observe 41 days continuous vratham(natural reasons), men should strictly follow 41 days vratham. whether group will welcome a reduced period of vratham for women say 21 days or so (because of natural causes)
 

Brahmanyan

Well-known member
#14
It is my view traditions are more powerful than written laws. Traditions are based on beliefs. No logic will work to change belief or tradition. Secularism is based on non interference of religion in Governance, similarly Religions expect non interference of Government in traditional beliefs.
Religious places should not be used to prove gender or economic equality. By encouraging breaking of traditions the Government of Kerala has "caught the tiger's tail" unwittingly, (நாயர் பிடித்த புலிவால்.)
Brahmanyan
Bangalore.
 
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#15
changes are inevitable. traditions are what we create. the choices should be left to the individuals. if denial for women is due to natural causes we have to review and re look
 
#16
Dear, dear V M Siva (member)

Forgive me for saying that traditions are what are handed down from generation to generation from time immemorial.

Example: wash your feet before entering temples; do not spit, vomit, urinate or defecate there; wash hands before and after eating if you eat with your right hand; respect the learned and the elderly; do not torture dumb animals or starve them to death; do not pollute holy places, steal from there, or asssault holy men.

In my experience, laws are made by fallible fools, and largely go unenforced in India. Because the enforcers are corrupt and can be bribed (as can the lawmakers). Sometimes even the judges can be bribed so as not to enforce the law justly and fairly.

Why is it that always only women's "rights" can be lauded and enforced, but not men's "rights" equally?

Did women build the Sabarimalai Ayyappan temple, fund, maintain, and consecrate it?

Did you?

svamiye sharanam

S Narayanaswamy Iyer
 

prasad1

Well-known member
#17
Just because a stupidity is followed for 1000 years it does not becomes right.
If the early humans was scared of lightning because of ignorance or superstition it is not a tradition that needs to be maintained.

If non brahmins who were banned from entering Temple was overturned by court order, why the false tradition of women being barred from one isolated rogue location can not be changed.

I am shocked that Modi politicised this knowing that majority of male in India are chauvinist. Then again Indian women are still not liberated and suffer from Stockholm syndrome.
Instead of giving a leg up to the down trodden, somebody is pulling them down.
 
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Brahmanyan

Well-known member
#18
Using strong words do not solve any problem. The recent messages do not help to solve the issue of Sabarimala after the Supreme Court Verdict.
This issue has been discussed in detail by the High Court of Kerala, which I have referred in my message 5 in this thread.

Full verdict is available in the following weblink: https://indiankanoon.org/doc/1915943/ (AIR 1993 Ker 42)
I wish the members have the patience to open the link and read the same before commenting on the issue.
Hereunder I have copied the relevant portions of the High Court Order to understand that this restrictions on women of 10 to 50 age group has been initiated by Devaswam Board only in 1969.

"7. In olden days worshippers visit the temple only after observing penance for 41 days. Since pilgrims to Sabarimala temple ought to undergo 'Vrathams' or penance for 41 days, usually ladies between the age of 10 and 50 will not be physically capable of observing vratham for 41 days on physiological grounds. The religious practices and customs followed earlier had changed during the last 40 years particularly from 1950, the year in which the renovation of the temple took place after the "fire disaster". Even while the old customs prevailed, women used to visit the temple though very rarely. The Maharaja of Travancore accompanied by the Maharani and the Divan had visited the lemple in 1115 M.E. There was thus no prohibition for women to enter the Sabarimala temple in olden days, but women in large number were not visiting the temple. That was not because of any prohibition imposed by Hindu religion but because of other non-religious factors. In recent years, many worshippers had gone to the temple with lady worshippers within the age group 10 to 50 for the first rice-feeding ceremony of their children (Chottoonu). The Board used to issue receipts on such occasions on payment of the prescribed charges. A change in the old custom and practice was brought about by installing a flag staff (Dhwajam) in 1969. Another change was brought about by the introduction of Padipooja. These were done on the advice of the Thanthri. Changes were also effected in other practices. The practice of breaking coconuts on the 18 steps was discontinued and worshippers were allowed to crack the coconuts only on a stone placed below the eighteen sacred steps (Pathinettaam Padi). These changes had been brought about in order to preserve the temple and the prescind in all its gaiety and sanctity."

Brahmanyan
Bangalore.
 

Raji Ram

Well-known member
#19
Those who have real bhakthi will NOT enter the temple in the objectionable age!

Just find out about the 'brave' ladies who break the tradition.

They want nothing but cheap popularity!
 

renuka

Well-known member
#20
I signed the petition online to " save sabarimala"..i also wrote a stinging reply saying that when people are dying from hunger and sanctions elsewhere..quit fighting over temple entry

I also said..i am signing the petition not on religious grounds but just on logical grounds of following rules.

I also said..why cant people just pray at home or go elsewhere?
 
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