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Sec 377 Struck down

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KRS

Well-known member
Dear Sri sapr333,

I am not gay. I do not have any family members who are gay (at least I think so). None of my friends are gay.

But I think that we Indians get tradition bound and do not think how cruel we are at times. In the name of tradition, we are ready to strike at nature. There are many many examples of this, where we judge others readily without any thought to the implication.

I am not surprised that gay love is compared to incest, bestiality and prostitution in this very Forum. It is because, we are not comfortable with a person being gay. We can at least tell who an 'ali' is, but home sexuality is different. We can not tell who is and who is not. So, we want to kill it.

One of the main attribute for a civilized country is empathy. Empathy for people who by no fault of their own are born in to certain trying circumstance. Like a Dalit, like a left handed person born in India, like a scholor born in to a family that looks down upon such a thing, like a homosexual. By no crime of their own, such people are given certain traits by Him. Do we have any right to take the implications of such traits away? Can we force a left handed person to be right handed? Imagine living in a place where every one is a homesexual and they pass a law against hetero sexuality and you meet the most beautiful person of the opposite sex. Is this all right?

I love my culture. But there are a few things we do in India that I consider to be extremely cruel and against God. And this happens to be one of them. That is why I am passionate about it.

Again you throw around unsound analogies, comparing lhuman ove to drinking. Let us take a step back and think about what we are degrading here. It is human love. Where does sex come in to it as a primary factor? Would we do it for hetero sexual love?

Gay marriage is a different animal. If future action is what determines what is correct today, then one can argue against all sorts of things. Indian independence would have been an example of this kind of thinking. There is no intellectual basis for it. The same logic is argued by the Islamists to keep their women folk subserviant and behind a full purdha. We need to as a society cross the bridges as they come along. We can not deny humanity to some of our brothers and sisters, just because they live differently than we do, all because of something that God did.

Please think about how much your thinking about gays is conditioned by your religious upbringing. Because, being gay is not the problem. But our reaction to some one being gay is.

Thank you.

Regards,
KRS
 
S

sapr333

Guest
Shri.KRS, thanks indeed for the wonderful detailed response..

As I said earlier in one of the post, Im deeply convinced personally about legalisation(decrimilalization) of Gay-love,keeping in mind the individual rights for true love.

The point why I was dragging to Bestiality & Prostitution is, when we go against traditions, and go in accordance with Democracy&secularism, these things also could be legalised in India, and its very much possible, and I fear this as a first step.

Days are not far to permit gay-marriage.. Given then right of love, why not marriage also?

Based on your view on 'TRUE LOVE' gay-love should be permitted, and Prostitution should no be legalised, cos it spoils the love of the married partner.. I agree, but one should also notice how the legal system/societies demand takes its path.

You may be surprised to know in India, prostitution itself (exchanging sex for money) is not illegal.According to 1956 law, prostitutes can practice their trade privately but cannot legally solicit customers in public. Thou shalt covet thy neighbours wife legally.

Definitely,India has seen a growing mandate to legalize prostitution, to avoid exploitation of sex workers and their children by middlemen and also in the wake of growing HIV/AIDS menace..

This confusion has only made me to deviate the discussion towards Bestiality/incest/Prostitution.
 

KRS

Well-known member
Dear Sri sapr333,

I understood why you have said what you have said.

But my point is, one has to do the right thing as the part of the society - and the right thing here is to 'de-criminalize' homo sexuality.

In India, especially in the metro areas, some rich and famous are openly living a gay life style. And the police turn a blind eye. This creates another untenable law & order situation. And no one should live under the proverbial 'dangling sword' above their heads.

Will gays demand recognition of marriage in the future? Will they demand the right to adoption? Experience in other countries show that they will. But then the society has to look at the scientific results of such moves as well as the definiotion of marriage in the society to pass laws accordingly. Marriage is not a fyndamental right in the civil sense - one has to apply for this 'license' and if one meets certain criteria then one can get it. Like denying a driving license to someone based on age.

But this is different from recognizing a fundamental human right - the right to pursue happiness as long as no one else is affected.

Regards,
KRS
 

kadimohan

Member
Law and the British

Dear Sri kadimohan Ji,

Excellent thoughtful posting. I have edited the topic header since it was a bit raw, while keeping the intended meaning (I hope).

By the way, do we have any responsibility in the way we act now or all our current 'irrational' behaviour is due to British and the Muslims? Sometimes I wonder whether we look outside to blame instead of introspection. After all it has been six decades since we have been our own Masters.

Regards,
KRS

I look into the very basis of law. The original source of law is custom of the society). There is no Hindu custom that existed as far as I can which condemned Homo'ty the way any 'sins' are condemned. The law against Homo'ty wa s made by the British and 'cut and pasted' in Indian law. And you know the basis of such British thinking is their understanding of Chiristainity.

300 years of Muslim and English rule has made us forget our own mores. 'That' matter between a man and women which was so much a subject matter of poetry and stone carving in temples had over three centuries has become a taboo because our foreign rulers thinks so. Now we are ashamed of discussing 'that' matter in families.

The same thing has happened to Homo'ty. 'For' or 'against' it is not 'our' view or prescribed by 'our' Dharma. It is a notion transplanted from beyond our cultural borders for such a long time that we forgot that it is not 'our' view.(look, these people who do not take daily bath had taught us to use soap; now you cannot take bath unless you have soap; It is difficult to convince you that all the dirt that body produces is water soluble and that water wash is just sufficient)

"Bharat' never had any 'law'. There were only consensual code of conduct. Dasaratha had three queens but Rama observed 'Ekapaddini' dharma. Later-come Mahabharat had accepted, with some murmurs five princes sharing a wife.

If we differentiated Law from Dharma, I think we have a clearer picture of Art 377. The rubbish of the British pokes its nose into matters which are not in its domain. Like the law of monogamy Art 377 is also our mind's prison installed by the Brit.

'Domain!' I am hinting at the argument that it is 'against natural law'. C'mon, it is the human mind that looks at things differently from the animals. Swimming is for animals but boat is against law of nature!.Isn't it. The same human mind which understood fire , its uses and its creation also might have looked at its body from a different perspective. Is it against the law of nature?

Personally I don't understand how a man can be attracted to another man but if some one else feels that way I will leave it to him (so long as he does not ask me to help- pun intended).
 
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kadimohan

Member
Dear Shri KRS,
I think I need some elaboration. It seems that your query is in the context of this current topic but it also appears otherwise.

To say that we had been the our own masters for the past sixty years is more a political view than a sociological truth.
As I already mentioned our thought process had completely been hijacked by prolonged rule of alien culture and even absence of culture. It is not merely confined to soap and toothpaste etc,. but to more fundamental issues about what is right and what is wrong. Today we can do a lot of things that are unethical but legal, (for eg., like influencing children through TV advt.) Conversely may illegal acts go unchecked and unpunished because we have devoloped tolerance (insensitivity?). We are even oblivious to the effect of faulty laws; our governments have legalised abortion, but if an individual does not prefer a female child, foetal sex determination is illegal! This means a male foetus can be killed but a female one. That is the law- in this land which boasts of equel rights for both genders- law based on our 'imported' thought process.? Ever heard of any women being illtreated in our heritage that went uncriticised? Even Rama's treatment of Surpanaka is described in so much apologetical tone that the author shows some sympathy for women.
What have we achieved with our imported laws?
It is our corrupted thougt process that has come bundled with English Education and benefits of technolgy blurrs our judgment.

Any introspection can be useful only after our thought processess are disinfected and sanitised.

The topic is too big and I have not said all that I wanted to say.
 

KRS

Well-known member
Dear Sri kadimohan Ji,

I appreciate your response - thanks for the clarification/addition to the point you expressed.

While I agree with your view that our thought process as a culture has changed, I think you are only looking at the negative side of a different (aka 'alien') culture on our culture and way of living.

Let me first start with the status of the 'Hindu' culture at the time of various invasions. The Hindu kings at that time did not support each other and actively back stabbed each other on the back paving the way for all sorts of 'outsiders' (not just Muslims and the English). While one may consider this as unfortunate, the ruling of outsiders in one way brought unity amongst us in some political form during independence and we are now the Masters of our own country.

While we can endlessly condemn those rules, one must also admit that we have also changed irnvariably and irrevocably, adopting and thriving under those cultures. And the world did not stand pat in the interim. Technology advancements in such a rapid fashion are changing the world, not just us. In fact such is the change wrought by technology and science, we can not stand still and not change - USA, China and even Pakistan will take advantage of those changes and badly influence the direction of India. This is exactly why we can not constantly 'dream' about going back to the supposedly golden 'vedic culture'. We can not move away from democracy and secularism. And this is the fact. If we attempt to do so, I think there is a danger that our culture as it exists today will vanish for good.

If our laws are not perfect, we need to lobby and change them after creating awareness. We can not just reject the current set up without working to make it succeed.

By the way, from this tool we are conversing on, to the way we dress, eat and live have all those influences that you seem to reject. Even with all the warts, I think that the Indian democracy is functioning adequately for it's current maturity. It will only keep developing and advancing as it becomes more and more of a 'middle class' country. I already see the idealism in today's youth of India.

I do not hold such a dark view of Indian laws and society as you do. I think that the thought processes of most Indians are suited fine with todays's life. They seem to succeed everywhere they go globally.

Regards,
KRS
 
" Sex is only to procreate children " - Mahathma Gandhi

A healthy discussion is good for the society.

Many may laugh at Mahathma Gandhi's decision on SEX.

Ofcourse, it is difficult to understand and practice.

But, Facts & Findings is to be disseminated to the literate and the illiterate mass in a simple, understandable way in the regional language possible.

I would suggest the way Kavi Shri Subramanya Bharathiar put it in his poems and explained by people like Shri Sukhi Sivam ( who gives thought provoking lectures in Tamil to the entire society in the most simple language possible through TV media ).

If we Brahmins could not practice, then how can we make the entire society as Brahmins ( Utilisers of the WISDOM in the right way possible and improve upon it then and there) !

- Renganathan Raghavan Mannargudi
 
Homo sexuality

Hello members
I am participating in the debate for the first time.My age is 69.
Homosexuality is not a crime. At adolescent ages , it is practiced by many. It is wrong to treat is as criminal and punish them.For various reasons marriage is getting postponed and room mates practice homosexuaality . But at the same time it should be realised that this is a passing phase and hetrosexuality is the natural one.
As a population expert I can say that many western societies particularly in Scandinavian societies, with economic development the institution of marriage and family has vanished fast leading to less over all happiness compared to oriental societies, despite latter's economic backwardness.
In short institution of marriage, particularly Hindu view should be emphasized. Parents have a role to play.
Natarajan
 

ambes

Active member
It is against order of the nature. Tomorrow can we also say having sex with animals is also to be allowed
 
G

GopalaswamyShridharan

Guest
re

It is against order of the nature. Tomorrow can we also say having sex with animals is also to be allowed
ambes,

I have seen sculptures in temples in Karnataka,which depict mating with animals,as a shilpis art form.Expression of art are manifold,but i don't think it's possible to have unnatural tendencies,i agree with you.

gopal.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
gopal, ambes,

i think if you read all the posts in this thread, you will see an entire spectrum of arguements, pro and anti.

again, the subject of having sex with animals too have been discussed.

i request you both to come up with some arguements for your views. should be interesting :)

ksnatarajan,

much as i am interested in your viewpoint, which is refreshingly different, i am not so sure, that homosexual behaviour is a resultant of late marriages.

ie it is an intermittent behaviour and would be dropped once a mate of the other sex is bonded.

i think gay behaviour is in the genes. no amount of brain washing, upbringing or psychological help will help. it has been shown consistently thus.

re the break up of the family system in the western societies, i think, it is more a result of industrial development, women's liberation and economic freedom, a more attitude towars divorce, and above a sense of individuals to live this life on certain terms, and not compromise it for whatever reason, whether it be children, family or religion.

it is far too complex to blame it on any single feature. it is a combination of factors, which can be attributed to latter half of 20th century.

lest we forget, prior to 1939, all these societies were also religious, and marriage bound. the father was the bread winner, the mother stayed at home, had babies and looked after them.

the birth control pill in 1959 removed the single most home binding factor in the woman - ie birth of the child was a lottery to be tracked followin sex.

once this process could be controlled, the woman was freed from the sense of burden of sex, and could enjoy it carefree like the males, who had it all along gratis since the dawn of time.

one final point: look at urban india now mainly mumbai, delhi or bangalore. are they not on the same social path, as the west was about 50 years ago?

we cannot predict the future. but one thing for sure. no one can afford to be smug, that the break up of families and loss of values is purely a western phenomenon, and that the same wind won't blow in our direction.

we can try to take precautions, but it may only delay a certain movement like what is happening in iran. but eventually, the human race, apes one another and all surge like sheep in the same direction, irrespective of the consequence.

that is my opinion.

thank you.
 
G

GopalaswamyShridharan

Guest
re

gopal, ambes,

i think if you read all the posts in this thread, you will see an entire spectrum of arguements, pro and anti.

again, the subject of having sex with animals too have been discussed.

i request you both to come up with some arguements for your views. should be interesting :)

ksnatarajan,

much as i am interested in your viewpoint, which is refreshingly different, i am not so sure, that homosexual behaviour is a resultant of late marriages.

ie it is an intermittent behaviour and would be dropped once a mate of the other sex is bonded.

i think gay behaviour is in the genes. no amount of brain washing, upbringing or psychological help will help. it has been shown consistently thus.

re the break up of the family system in the western societies, i think, it is more a result of industrial development, women's liberation and economic freedom, a more attitude towars divorce, and above a sense of individuals to live this life on certain terms, and not compromise it for whatever reason, whether it be children, family or religion.

it is far too complex to blame it on any single feature. it is a combination of factors, which can be attributed to latter half of 20th century.

lest we forget, prior to 1939, all these societies were also religious, and marriage bound. the father was the bread winner, the mother stayed at home, had babies and looked after them.

the birth control pill in 1959 removed the single most home binding factor in the woman - ie birth of the child was a lottery to be tracked followin sex.

once this process could be controlled, the woman was freed from the sense of burden of sex, and could enjoy it carefree like the males, who had it all along gratis since the dawn of time.

one final point: look at urban india now mainly mumbai, delhi or bangalore. are they not on the same social path, as the west was about 50 years ago?

we cannot predict the future. but one thing for sure. no one can afford to be smug, that the break up of families and loss of values is purely a western phenomenon, and that the same wind won't blow in our direction.

we can try to take precautions, but it may only delay a certain movement like what is happening in iran. but eventually, the human race, apes one another and all surge like sheep in the same direction, irrespective of the consequence.

that is my opinion.

thank you.
Shree Kunjuppu,

This a very awesome post.I enjoyed your view with certain delight.

Homo-sexuality is a sickness of the mind,which if treated with Lord Ardha-Narieswarar as the ruling diety can be cured.In anycase,its also a natural way to stop population explosion,is another way of accepting homosexuality.

Regarding sex with animals,our Lord Hanuman (Vaayu Puthran),Lord Hayagreevar,LOrd Karnan(Suryan Puthran)..etc and many such gods/goddess of vedic religion,gives us immense clues as how humans have evolved over millions of centuries.Our Vedic Religion has time scales which are brllliant genius of human evolution as well as record keeping thru our ancient vedanga panchangam of mahabharatham.Thank You.

gopal.
 

Spiri2al

Member
Social engineering to encourage promiscuity and promote the loss of cultural identity. The emergence of a culturally depleted society so lost in the material world (consumption, recreative procreation and self-idolatry) that God, within and without, is lost from man's view.

If you noticed during the televised broadcast of 'celebrations' outside the supreme court, that the majority of the well-wishers were of Occidental features. All the India gays were hiding behind their masks. If you're fighting for your rights at least be open about it. But that wasn't the case.

Opinion: With the WTO and opening of trade barriers for the increasing of consumption across geographies by reducing marketing costs, homogenization of cultures is required to a shattered, directionless, soulless pulp.
 
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