• Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Sec 377 Struck down

Status
Not open for further replies.
S

sapr333

Guest
Shri.KRS, Yes, I was wrong there..

Actually I didnt get the right vocab to mention 'Father's brother's daughter' and put it wrongly as Paternal cousin.. I wish someone could help me with the right vocab here..

Marrying atthai's daughter is quite an acceptable norm in India, but still west views it closer to incest. Thats why one of my cousin rejected one such proposal, citing, that he cannot introduce his wife to his american friends,cos they all would laugh at him,for having married a sister.

And its very very common among lowest castes (esp in Andhra), to get married to Sister's daughter, and to the height, marrying Chitthappa's daughter is a strange one I noticed in the community I mentioned in earlier post.


btw, I got one strange doubt..Shri.Kunjuppu also should try to attempt it.

Now that we have legalised 'Gay sex"..Why not allow zoophilia too? If not, on what basis we are going to condemn it?

If its against love for animals, No,rather, people kill them for meat! If one says, that act is done without the consent of animal, Yes, we, slaughter them without their consent too.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
Now that we have legalised 'Gay sex"..Why not allow zoophilia too? If not, on what basis we are going to condemn it?

zoophilia? i know it as bestiality. same thing.

i subscribe to hari's opening salvo of this thread. which i quote below

' ...that consentual adult behaviour exercising their free will shouldnt be criminalised.'

the key, i think, dear sapr, is 'free will'.

unless we are another dr. doolittle, and speak to animals, we do not know how the animal feels.

so, in the absence of concrete evidence, this would be rape.

rape, nowadays known by its more politically correct terminology, sexual assault, in my opinion, continues to be a crime, whether it is practised on man or animal. rightfully so too.

hope this answers.

thank you.
 

KRS

Well-known member
Dear Sri sapr333,

Any society has the right to define incest and criminalize it, based on the extent to which it causes harm to the psersons involved or to the society in general (not fostering the proper functioning of the family unit).

This is why, I personally think that even a marriage between cousins as practiced by my culture should be taboo as from genetics, we know that mothr's gene affects both sons and daughters 50%.

I do not agree with your logic in equating gay sex with bestiality. Gay sex is between human adults, who for some reason are wired differently by God. It is cruel to deny them what is given to them by Him. It is like trying to force a left handed person in to being right hander or to chop off a fully functioning sixth finger of a person. These are thoughtless, cruel, ungodly activities, practiced by men since the ages.

This is why your comparison of gay sex with bestiality is astonishing. This shows, you are not properly thinking about the differences between species, let alone the difference between a human and an animal.

Apart from what Sri Kunjuppu said about the agreement on an animal's part, love and sex are by definition between the members of a species. Outside of it, it is entirely considered deviant by every society. Attraction towards animals to the extent of having sex with them is not driven by any genetics disorder, but rather by some deviant fantasies and by choice. Again, this is criminalized to protect the animals and most importantly to protect the interests of the society.

The difference between this and killing an animal for food is, the latter has sanctions for it in our survival and the former does not. If you do not know the difference between the two, then I do not know what to say.

Regards,
KRS




Shri.KRS, Yes, I was wrong there..

Actually I didnt get the right vocab to mention 'Father's brother's daughter' and put it wrongly as Paternal cousin.. I wish someone could help me with the right vocab here..

Marrying atthai's daughter is quite an acceptable norm in India, but still west views it closer to incest. Thats why one of my cousin rejected one such proposal, citing, that he cannot introduce his wife to his american friends,cos they all would laugh at him,for having married a sister.

And its very very common among lowest castes (esp in Andhra), to get married to Sister's daughter, and to the height, marrying Chitthappa's daughter is a strange one I noticed in the community I mentioned in earlier post.


btw, I got one strange doubt..Shri.Kunjuppu also should try to attempt it.

Now that we have legalised 'Gay sex"..Why not allow zoophilia too? If not, on what basis we are going to condemn it?

If its against love for animals, No,rather, people kill them for meat! If one says, that act is done without the consent of animal, Yes, we, slaughter them without their consent too.
 
Last edited:

happyhindu

Well-known member
And its very very common among lowest castes (esp in Andhra), to get married to Sister's daughter, and to the height, marrying Chitthappa's daughter is a strange one I noticed in the community I mentioned in earlier post.
Sapr, can please share the name of the community where marrying chittappa's daughter happens. Such social practices can help to show from which tribe a caste might have originated from, or might have admixed with. It wud really help me.

Btw, a man marrying his sister's daughter happens in quite a few castes, incl in brahmin families in not only andhra, but also in karnataka and tamilnadu. I know of examples in the current times. These things are seen only in south; in the north, a bride and groom have to be completely unrelated.

i like the northie system, am not in favor of marirages within the family..no matter how far off related, there always seems to be probs with matters related to kids. Hope in future, everyone will match genetic 'horoscopes' to ensure healthy progeny.
 
Last edited:
S

sapr333

Guest
HH:- I dont know the caste name.. But I know their caste profession as,those, who extracts vegetable oil manually by oxen driven machines.. Will find out with someone soon. Though i have not come across any one in T.N marrying sisters daughter,but looking around the tamil movie stories, I can sense, this must be a prevailing one.


Shri.KRS/Kunjuppu: I agree with your points on bestiality..
 
S

sapr333

Guest
Sapr, can please share the name of the community where marrying chittappa's daughter happens. Such social practices can help to show from which tribe a caste might have originated from, or might have admixed with. It wud really help me.
Dear HH,

An archive book by EDGAR THURSTON, C.I.E./ K. RANGACHARI, M.A., refers a particular caste of Kerala called 'Pulluvan' mentions about this... On the back of the mind, I also personally remember having heard this term colloquially, often used as slang.

http://www.archive.org/stream/castestribesofso06thuriala/castestribesofso06thuriala_djvu.txt

Trust this would be of helpful to you in your research..

Sorry, Ive trangressed too much from the core topic.
 

KRS

Well-known member
Unfortunately Prof. Enrique Rojas, while saying that it is his opinion that homosexuality is a condition that can be cured, does not give any statistics nor any proof that such a thing happened and the so called 'cure' is permanent.

Guru Ramdev does the same thing, postulating yoga effects, without showing any proofs.

It is one thing to say that this behaviour should not be accepted in a society. Another to argue it can be cured when all scientific evidence point to the contrary.

I predict the court will reject this claim by Guru Ramdev.

Regards,
KRS
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
much as i rever baba ramdev, i will have to disagree here.

nope homosexuality is neither a disease nor is it curable...it merely is a state of mind, a state of pleasure brought on by specific things, where the brain is incapable of feeling the same pleasure elsewhere....when there are 2 consenting adults, wonder why does a third person need to interfere like a kabab mein haddi....homosexuality has nothing to do with ethics..
 
Last edited:

ganeshsdn

Member
What are the views of the members re, the striking down of Sec 377 of Cr Pc, the section that treats homosexuality as a criminal activity ?

I dont have any strong views on this but i will only say that consentual adult behaviour exercising their free will shouldnt be criminalised.

As a clarification, let me state that I have no intention to offend members who feel otherwise.
Hi everybody,
the Delhi HC just allowed in a particular matter that Sec377 IPC is not an offence. IN further not giving full freedom for particular group whether gays or lesbi's to continue. It clearly demands the consent of the parties where they are adults. With so much delicacy it approached the matter and it is not the order for the whole society to follow.. Further we can say no parents will allow such acts generously.
we need to study those particularly, as baba ram devji said, it is a type pshycological problem and the root cause of the problem is purely individualistic. Where they failed to perform as a normal being they want to do certain adventures like such in a totally meaningless.. in every yuga this type of problem persists.
 
Last edited:
It has been quite interesting to read the various points of view on a subject that has got attention of everyone, thanks to our all-pervading media. Is the issue legal, moral or ethical or religious.....I think we will get different answers when we consider the issue from different angles like legal, moral etc... Certain issues cannot be solved by courts or court orders.. The present issue is not fully settled by the courts as yet..as there are a few people who have appealed against the order. I think we should consider such issues very objectively. If two individuals are consenting to behave in a particular way and lead a life in a particular way and so far, it does not affect anyone else, should we not leave them their way? Earlier days, love marriages was looked down upon. Nowadays, we see more of love marriages not even within our community even inter-caste and inter-religion as well. I am not comparing both. The point is what is considered as taboo once, is not considered so, after a period of time. It is all how we view it.
 
Last edited:

sapthajihva

Active member
The use of yoga as a cure for enuchs has not been scientifically tested or verified. That seems to be the basis for rejecting BR's claim. Then perhaps, the Indian Government should go ahead and test his claim, if possible.

It merely cannot be wished away. Someone like BR would not simply make a claim if it cannot be substantiated, (going by his credibility).

That is my take here.
 

kumar.v.7

Member
Use of yoga for all problems

In order to overcome the stress and other factors and other problems one can use yoga for all the salvation. If any bad report affect us one can use the meditation. This is one of the metohd to solve the problems.
 

KRS

Well-known member
Dear Sri sapr333,

As I mentioned earlier, you do not seem to accept the fact that there can be human love between two gays. You keep on asking questions, comparing the gay love to bestiality, incest and now prostitution!

The reason prostitution is not legal in most coutries is because of two main facts:

1. Most of the 'clients' are married and so, even if love is not involved, deception is involved and hence hurting one's spouse.

2. Because of multiple partners, easy for catching/spreading diseases. This of course can be controlled by legalizing prostitution and instituting periodic medical check ups, as some countries/provinces have done. But even here, there is no guarantee.

Regards,
KRS
 
Last edited:

pannvalan

Well-known member
Homosexuality

1. By approving gays' marriage, such relationship gains legal character.
This encourages more people to venture into such relationships.

2. I have read about persons, esp. some women having sex with their
pet animals. Why not legalise such relationships too?

3. Friendship is something different from marriage which is life-long
bond promising physical companionship. By physical companionship,
one could draw any inferences.

4. We can keep on extending the same logic, to legalise several other
perverted relationships. Where is the end?

5. In case of groups living together, how would you call them?

In all such relationships, how can one describe and fix the role,
rights and responsibilities of each individual concerned?

Whether it is legal or not, it smacks of unethical and unhygienic relationship, which shall not be passed on to our offsprings.

I would never suggest these relationships as natural, even though they have a place in the society, without the social approval. I'm worried that we are trying to provide social approval to such ugly relationships.
 

sapthajihva

Active member
For normal humans, karanam is the mind and karta is body or organs. If this is the case, then

For enuchs, karanam is body, but relayed through the mind. I think this is the difference.

<<I have second thoughts on the above now>>

Contd.

Homosexuality is seen as a natural sexual orientation since it was noticed that they do not exhibit any mental/physical incapacities in other areas. If a person has fever/disease, then it affects his normal actions. If a person is mentally afflicted, then they show abnormalities in behaviour (apparently, sexual behaviour is excluded!).

The court decision seems fair to me, but this might see an surge in homosexual activities. That is the only flip side. Taboo attracts the most when it is openly legalised.

Homosexuals: Consenting adults. Homo's do not break a marriage bond by such relationship.

Live-in relationships: Consenting adults provided either of the partners are not having it outside an approved marital bond.

Prostitution: The act is between consenting adults. But it breaks the marriage bond if married individuals are in the act.

Bestiality: Outside the human species. Also, we cannot know whether the animal is willing or not, and hence cannot be legalised.

Incest: Consenting adults again! But it breaks several ties - of family relationship and also of marital bonds.

Looking at the pivotal point of 'If done, what bonds does it affect to the individuals concerned?', legalising of homosex (only between homosexuals) seems to be apparently fair. I am not sure whether sex between declared homosexuals is legalised or just homosex is declared legal. They are both different.

What about bisexuals???
 
Last edited:

KRS

Well-known member
Sri pannvalan Ji, Sir,

No one in India will go for approving gay marriage. We are talking abour decriminalizing gay adult love, which is natural, because it is shown to be so by science. It is not a disease. As much as a small percentage of people are born left handed, so are these people who are wired that way.

Society has every right to decide what is deviant.

People bring their own personal aversion to topics like this. They equate gay adult love to all sorts of deviant behaviours.

Let us not hope that by suppressing and criminalizing this, one's daughter does not end up getting married to a closet gay. This is the opposite of your concern that the whole society will turn gay if we allow this.

No one, in my knowledge, who is a hetero sexual would prefer gay partners. This has been proved by research.

What we are talking about here is allowing two adults who are gay to spend their lives as they wish, with dignity. I do not think that any society has the right to prevent what is natural. You may think that they are natural, but unfortunately, science says otherwise.

Regards,
KRS


1. By approving gays' marriage, such relationship gains legal character.
This encourages more people to venture into such relationships.

2. I have read about persons, esp. some women having sex with their
pet animals. Why not legalise such relationships too?

3. Friendship is something different from marriage which is life-long
bond promising physical companionship. By physical companionship,
one could draw any inferences.

4. We can keep on extending the same logic, to legalise several other
perverted relationships. Where is the end?

5. In case of groups living together, how would you call them?

In all such relationships, how can one describe and fix the role,
rights and responsibilities of each individual concerned?

Whether it is legal or not, it smacks of unethical and unhygienic relationship, which shall not be passed on to our offsprings.

I would never suggest these relationships as natural, even though they have a place in the society, without the social approval. I'm worried that we are trying to provide social approval to such ugly relationships.
 
S

sapr333

Guest
Sri pannvalan Ji, Sir,

No one in India will go for approving gay marriage. We are talking abour decriminalizing gay adult love, which is natural, because it is shown to be so by science.
Regards,
KRS
Shri.KRS,

Though the techinicality of legalising gay love seems to be very much acceptable,if we look at in the administrative point of the society, its natural that every society tends to ask for further liberalisation of laws and its indeed human/social psyche on their quest towards ultimate freedom.

Its the countries which went first to legalise the gay-love, are the one's to approve gay-marriage. If we let open wine shops,then the society would ask for Arrack,toddy shops.If we legalise posession of 10gms of marijuana,the next request from society would be to make it as OTC drug.

In this sense, its better to go along with the public sentiments also.Religious leaders who can better answer to this moral/ethical issues, needs to be consulted while eacting any such laws. The feelings of society needs to be taken in to account. This is exactly the problem with Democracy and secularism.

So,its always better to take a little tough legal stand,than taking a volunatary liberal view, that too, in a situation our indian society is yet to become liberal on gay-love..

Im sure, you and I still may not like it to have a gay brother making love with his partner in our house! Our society has not yet mentally groomed up to this.


Anyways, this is just a court order,but not a democratic decision at this moment.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Follow Tamil Brahmins on Social Media

Top