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Sec 377 Struck down

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hariharan1972

Active member
What are the views of the members re, the striking down of Sec 377 of Cr Pc, the section that treats homosexuality as a criminal activity ?

I dont have any strong views on this but i will only say that consentual adult behaviour exercising their free will shouldnt be criminalised.

As a clarification, let me state that I have no intention to offend members who feel otherwise.
 

KRS

Well-known member
India has one of the largest population of AIDS and HIV positive. And these are spread not just through homo sexuality alone.

In the name of religion and shame we tend to shut our eyes, ears and mouths like the three monkeys. We do not show any compassion to others' misfortune and travails. We condemn on the basis of an interpretation of our scriptures which did not address these conditions.

But I know that there are a few temples in India where homo sexuality by marriage is allowed for a few days every year, in anonymity. And these are not talked about.

In this vein, I applaud the decision. But I think that in India this is where it stops - I do not think that it will lead to the claims of 'official' recognition of gay marriage as it is happenening in certain parts of the west.

Regards,
KRS
 
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sapr333

Guest
Is it not against the 'Order Of Nature?'

In the same context, what's wrong in legalizing 'Incest with consent"?
 

KRS

Well-known member
Homosexuality is not against 'Order of Nature'. It has been shown that even in animal kingdom this exists, albeit at a less percentage than in human population.

Even though the gay community is loathe to admit that this tendency is mainly in-born, because of fear of a 'medical solution' will be researched, I really think that one has to be born this way.

Incest, on the other hand is a choice and therefore can not be allowed on the basis of society's welfare in many levels. Same with why a society can not allow group marriages and marriage between a beast and a human.

Regards,
KRS


Is it not against the 'Order Of Nature?'

In the same context, what's wrong in legalizing 'Incest with consent"?
 
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sapr333

Guest
Homosexuality is not against 'Order of Nature'. It has been shown that even in animal kingdom this exists, albeit at a less percentage than in human population.

Even though the gay community is loathe to admit that this tendency is mainly in-born, because of fear of a 'medical solution' will be researched, I really think that one has to be born this way.

Incest, on the other hand is a choice and therefore can not be allowed on the basis of society's welfare in many levels. Same with why a society can not allow group marriages and marriage between a beast and a human.

Regards,
KRS
Order of Nature,here is, re-production. This violates that law.

Then again, Incest supports re-production. Most of the animals follow this. But, man is not animal and we dont follow jungle law. Incest in man, or even marriages between cousins do have an impact on the offsprings health.

Still, when we enter in to deep analysis, we always end up dilemma..Thats why,
we finally resort to scriptures. And all religious scriptures condemn incest and gay-union... Im also having a bit of confusion here..

Btw, gays could make a good vote bank...
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Gays-could-make-a-vote-bank/articleshow/4736157.cms
 
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KRS

Well-known member
Dear sapr333,

Reproduction pertains to sex. We are talking about human love here.

You are wrong - not ALL religious scriptures forbid homo sexuality. I do not think the old testament addresses this. There is no condmnation of this in Hindu scriptures, and other eastern religions as far as I know.

The scriptual edicts on this in both Christianity and Islam (in certain sects in both), came about because of keeping social integrity in close societies, which operated at local levels.

This has no other relevance in scriptures, except for the unnatural fear of hetero sexuals that they can be converted in to homosexuality, just by association. We know today, by science, that this is not true.

Regards,
KRS



Order of Nature,here is, re-production. This violates that law.

Then again, Incest supports re-production. Most of the animals follow this. But, man is not animal and we dont follow jungle law. Incest in man, or even marriages between cousins do have an impact on the offsprings health.

Still, when we enter in to deep analysis, we always end up dilemma..Thats why,we finally resort to scriptures. And all religious scriptures condemn incest and gay-union.
 

KRS

Well-known member
Dear sapr333,

Just because some scriptures condemn both, it does not mean that they are equivalent. This is the flaw in your logic.

By the way, incest 'is not practiced by most animals'. This is practiced only amongst those where survivability is an issue. Please let me know, how do you support your statement by fact.

As I said, one is driven by nature and the other by choice. Let us not confuse between the two.

Regards,
KRS

we finally resort to scriptures. And all religious scriptures condemn incest and gay-union... Im also having a bit of confusion here..
 
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happyhindu

Well-known member
Sapr,

Order of Nature,here is, re-production. This violates that law.

apparently man and dolphins are the only ones that make love for pleasure and not necessarily for reproduction. All other animals have sex for only for reproduction. Man violates no law by making love without the intension of reproduction, its in his design, by nature.

Then again, Incest supports re-production. Most of the animals follow this. But, man is not animal and we dont follow jungle law. Incest in man, or even marriages between cousins do have an impact on the offsprings health.

man is an animal. at the base level we do follow jungle instincts.

Still, when we enter in to deep analysis, we always end up dilemma..Thats why,
we finally resort to scriptures. And all religious scriptures condemn incest and gay-union... Im also having a bit of confusion here..

we resort to scriptures whn analysis fails? how? all religious scriptures do not condemn homosexuality, except christianity and islam that are most vociferous about it. homosexuality is in the genes, it happens in nature, by nature, they have their right to live life as they please, scriptures and whatevr crap notwithstanding.

Btw, gays could make a good vote bank...
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Gays-could-make-a-vote-bank/articleshow/4736157.cms
 
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sapr333

Guest
Shri.KRS,

Except for Islam,majority of the religions has NOT said something concrete about 'Homosexuality'. J.C has not mentioned anything about it, but still there is a light mention of condmenation towards unnatural sex by his follower's preachings..In the absence of scriptural laws, the next option is to resort to 'Natural Laws' or 'Order of Nature'.. This is a general practise used in all the religions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_issues_and_Hinduism

The middle of this passage mentions fairly well, that,there is some form of condemnation did exist in Hinduism.

The point here is, if its, the 'Love & Choice', which differentiate Gay & Incest, then....

If being gay is a physiological/Mental distortion, which lead to LOVE between same gender, then for sure, Incest could also be seen that way. How can we say, Incest dont have a tint of 'LOVE'

There are many an instances people secretly loved and continued incest.If I add 'Physical/Phychological disorder to that, why not, a distorted brother can have infactual love with sister...

In macro view, even marrying closed cousins/ Sisters own daughter , defintely have 'True Love" and tends to be closer to the definition of INCEST too in terms of blood line.There are few societies,which gets married their daughter to his own brothers son. Love is definitely there amongst them, and should we call as incest..

Yes, it a bit of twisted argument, but my point here is, Love Vs Choice cannot be the base for approving tansgender union.

I think there is only a thin line which differentiate this.
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
Sapr,

Sex b/w two individuals of the same sex is homosexuality.

Incest is between two indivuduals who are not the same sex.

Huge differerence b/w the two. But you seem to put the both on the same lines.

It wud be too crude and impossible here to go into details of what causes the high in homosexuals.

Request you to read a bit on psychiatric genetics. You can find some leads on why ppl of the same sex prefer it.

You can also read up on why the church wants and wanted it banned. Theology, judging and scriptural pronouncements again i suppose.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
i think the real test as to how we feel about homosexuality will come, if one of our loved ones, especially our children declare themselves to be gay.

our children came into this world, as a consequence of our actions. we nourish and nurture them, provide them care and shower them with love.

i think, all of this must be given, without any thought of getting something back, whether it be respect or marrying whome we chose or old age care.

in the same context, if our child declares itself to be fond of the same sex, would we be right to deny them? cast them away, just because of something that we do not like?

i believe, that homosexuality is in the genes. the gay teenager goes through terrible anxieties and maladjustments because he/she does not feel the same towards the other sex like the contemporaries.

their longings are of a different kind. they struggle to fight these tendencies, and at some point, burst out of their coccoon. to some it happens gently and in a nice manner.

others have it more tragic in many forms - rejection from family, friends and in extreme cases, suicide.

not something, that we would like our loved ones to experience.

the 'normal' society's immediate reaction to homosexuality is one of sickness or mental disorder which can be cured either by exorcisms, psychology or by brute marriage to the other sex.

it takes a lot of gentleness and understanding, to accommodate a homosexual loved one these days. i only hope it gets easier for these folks, in india especially, in the years to come.
 

KRS

Well-known member
Dear Sri sapr333,
My response is below in 'blue':
Shri.KRS,

Except for Islam,majority of the religions has NOT said something concrete about 'Homosexuality'. J.C has not mentioned anything about it, but still there is a light mention of condmenation towards unnatural sex by his follower's preachings..In the absence of scriptural laws, the next option is to resort to 'Natural Laws' or 'Order of Nature'.. This is a general practise used in all the religions.
I thought you mentioned the exact opposite about relying on scriptures in your post above. As I have pointed out, homo sexuality is well within the Order of Nature for human beings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_issues_and_Hinduism

The middle of this passage mentions fairly well, that,there is some form of condemnation did exist in Hinduism.

The point here is, if its, the 'Love & Choice', which differentiate Gay & Incest, then....

If being gay is a physiological/Mental distortion, which lead to LOVE between same gender, then for sure, Incest could also be seen that way. How can we say, Incest dont have a tint of 'LOVE'
Let me explain as you have not grasped this:
Incest is in families and thus interferes with the normal loving relationships within the family(Parent/Children, Siblings, etc.), which are fundamental to the development and preservation of human kind. That is why incest, even if some sick 'love' is involved, is taboo.

In Homosexuals (majority of them)it is a biological/genetic condition that drives their behaviour. Over centuries they have been vilified and shunned and so this tells me that this behaviour is not by choice.
There are many an instances people secretly loved and continued incest.If I add 'Physical/Phychological disorder to that, why not, a distorted brother can have infactual love with sister...
Sir, there are not many instances like you say. If it happens, it is usually a person in a power position choosing to have incest, almost always forcing the vulnerable to submit to them. This is why, when a teacher chooses to have relations with an underage student, the punishment if caught is severe. Because that teacher is in a power position vis-a-vis the student.

The same thing happens in families. I can probably bet that if we remove the incest as a crime from the law books, the instances of incest will not increase. Incest is definitely against the natural laws.
In macro view, even marrying closed cousins/ Sisters own daughter , defintely have 'True Love" and tends to be closer to the definition of INCEST too in terms of blood line.There are few societies,which gets married their daughter to his own brothers son. Love is definitely there amongst them, and should we call as incest..
Cousins marrying is not generally considered incest in many societies as you point out. So, saying that love is involved there is not relevant to our discussion.
Yes, it a bit of twisted argument, but my point here is, Love Vs Choice cannot be the base for approving tansgender union.
Why not? Does homo sexuality affect any third party, unlike incest? Incest's source like rape is power over another person. Homo sexuality's source is human love based on mutual attraction.
I think there is only a thin line which differentiate this.
I think the comparison itself between incest and homo sexuality in the same vein is wrong. We are talking apples and oranes. While incest destrys the root of a family and thus the society, consensual homo sexual relationship between two consulting adults does not affect/concern anyone else, as it does not injure the society.

Even if one criminalizes it, it will go on as has been since time began.
 
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sapr333

Guest
Shri.KRS, to be frank, I dont have any much idea about this topic..

Personally not encountered/experinced this emotional issue with anyone in known circle, except for the plights of 'Enuchs' pushed as outcastes and forced to make a living by begging.In the absence of strong idea, I tried to touch upon scriptures to find an answer.

>>That is why incest, even if some sick 'love' is involved, is taboo.>>

If we take 'Taboo' as a parameter, then, we in India will have another century to go, even to accept 'Eunuchs' inside the family. And imagine how,the transgender union would be.. Our society has not even accepted this as a natural birth-defect (like a handicapped).

Im not here to prove it right/wrong,but its still a taboo amonst majority, in If incest with love could be even seen as a taboo, then gay-union is also a taboo (according to our society).

If we set our aruguments based on Society/Taboo, marrying a paternal uncles daughter/Sisters daughter is definitely seen an incest in western eyes, but not for Indian society.I remember my own cousin, who's born n bought up in U.S, finally cried and rejected his parents proposal to get married to cousin.He convinced the indian born parents as if they are pushing him in to 'Incest'.

But regarding Gay-union, I think our society has not groomed up to the western level. Enuch children are still cast out of home and handed over to the enuch-community. I dont remember seeing any gay pairs in (true gays) collegedays 15 yrs ago.. I think, our society has not yet gone to the level.

If west sees our culture of ' marrying paternal uncles daughter' (Chitthappa's daughter) as incest, and accepts 'Gay union' as a part of society norm, our society looks west in the entirely opposite way... I think,we are using the western yard stick here, not the society/cultural norm.. All said an done, you and I may agree with a closed cousin marriage in our own home, but definitely not a gay union to be celebrated with a grand wedding hading over printed invitation cards..

Our society needs some more time, to reach to this level.Yes, in terms of 'Respect for individual sentiment/Rights of human, this law is definitely a right one'... Let see what the voice of people decide in the 'Parliament'.


PS:Shri.KRS, A gentle reminder again..Im not that great, to be addressed with a 'Sir',esp, in the middle paragraphs. Too much of salutations like 'Sir', will gives a feel as 'sarcasam' or 'shout loud' ( I personally know, you wont mean that way)
 
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KRS

Well-known member
Dear Sri sapr333,

I apologize - yes you have asked me once before not to use 'sir'. Sorry, I used it only as a way of easing in to a good flow of the conversation - no sarcasm intended. I will not use it again.

It is news to me that some communities in India allow paternal cousin marriages. In my community that is not allowed.

But then again, while variations do exist in the acceptance of first cousin marriages across socities, I have not come across any that would allow what everyone agrees as incest (grand parents/grand children, parents/children, siblings).

Your point about the Indian society not accepting the homo sexual unions is well founded. This is why in my first posting I said that such gay unions and marriages would not be legalized in India any time soon.

But what we are talking about here is 377. Criminalizing this behaviour, seems to me is wrong, as long as consenting adults do whatever they want without any effect on the society in general.

Regards,
KRS
 
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sapr333

Guest
>>It is news to me that some communities in India allow paternal cousin marriages>>

Shri.KRS, this is one of the recent hot topic in the Indian Catholic Church..I read it somewhere else, a whole community, ( profession of 'Vegetable Oil Extrusion by Oxen driven machines') ,converted en-mass to Catholism hundred years ago,but,still fighting with the church to grand the rights of marriage between 'Paternal Cousin's, as it was their earlier custom.Their justification is,they dont find any distant related grooms inside their caste (less population),and hence want approval of paternal cousin marriage, whereas, the church's stand is No-Caste, so go out of caste and marry.In the process, some of them exited Catholicism and moved back to their own way of life.

Thats why I said, there exists only a thin line between Incest-Love-Gay issue. In the absence of taking scriptural stand, its better,atleast to take a stand in the context of our Indian society.


>> Criminalizing this behaviour, seems to me is wrong, as long as consenting adults do whatever they want without any effect on the society in general.>>

There is one reason why religions take an orthodoxy stand on such issues, because, in the absence of 'Political Power', the only option is to take a tough stand, so that, it wont further go down, so easily.

Once gay-sex with consent is legalised, Im sure, it wont take just another few years for legalising Gay-Union and legalising marriages.
 
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happyhindu

Well-known member
Sapr,

Paternal cousin means like marrying father's brother's daughter / son? This is allowed in southindian muslims, prohibitted in hindus.

So far in hindu socities the typical allowed murais were:
1) marrying father's sister's (athai's) son / daughter.
2) marrying mother's brother.
3) marrying mother's brother's son / daughter.

i have some ppl in my family falling into one of the 3 mentioned above in the previous generations, for lack of appropriate grooms / brides and also to keep the sottu within the family [the 2nd one (marrying the mother's bro) was very rare. almost unheard of]. A few aunts, uncles are albinos, and defects in the lot range from cleft palate to being deaf and dumb by birth. ofcourse marriages within close relatives was stopped subsequently.

i heard that they were raised from childhood with the idea that when they grow up they will be marrying so and so, therefore they never developed the usual familial relationship b/w them; and there was the typical shy romantic attitude amongst them until they married. marriages b/w very distant cousins, seperated by atleast 3-4 generations, still happen.
 

pannvalan

Well-known member
HOMOSEXUALITY



[FONT="]Homosexuality has been there since ancient times. Even in very famous temples, I have seen sculptures depicting homosexual acts, mostly of lesbians and also group sex and anal sex. All these go to prove these have been part of our society from time immemorial. But, homosexuality is more a social deviation than a social norm by itself. Again, it is practiced by less than 2 persons out of every 1000. Hence, it is discussed under abnormal behaviour in Psychology.

Therefore, I strongly condemn the scrapping of Article 377 by New Delhi High Court. At the same time, I do not want to attach criminality to this kind of practice or behaviour. If it is done, it will only help this practice spread further, albeit clandestinely. [/FONT]
[FONT="]In my point of view, since it is only a social aberration, not a criminal act, it is best left to the elders in the society to counsel such persons. Unlike eunuchs, where there is birth disorder, homosexuality is by one's choice and hence it can be avoided by suitable counselling and by subjecting them to behaviour therapy with their consent. Here also, it shall not be by force or coercion, but by cajoling and by highlighting the benefits in the usual and ordinary sex behaviour. It requires careful professional act, patience and perseverance and cannot be performed easily by any one.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Finally, one word of caution. The impact of western culture is spreading at a greater pace than we could imagine in India. We do not copy the west in good things like punctuality, transparency, their professional approach to education to employment etc. but want to imitate them in certain bad aspects like individual liberty and privacy often at the cost of the family as a single unit, getting one's things done by hook or crook, applying one's knowledge or skills for committing criminal offences and free sex too.[/FONT]
[FONT="]This kind of aping the west is very dangerous and will result in slow degeneration and death of our unique culture and heritage.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
My vote is certainly against homosexuality as it is against nature (like poles repel and unlike poles attract) and also because it has been accepted worldwide that homosexuality is unhygienic from the health point of view too[/FONT]
 
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happyhindu

Well-known member
Sir,

Good to see you after a long time.


[FONT="]Homosexuality has been there since ancient times. Even in very famous temples, I have seen sculptures depicting homosexual acts, mostly of lesbians and also group sex and anal sex. All these go to prove these have been part of our society from time immemorial. But, homosexuality is more a social deviation than a social norm by itself. Again, it is practiced by less than 2 persons out of every 1000. Hence, it is discussed under abnormal behaviour in Psychology.

Therefore, I strongly condemn the scrapping of Article 377 by New Delhi High Court. At the same time, I do not want to attach criminality to this kind of practice or behaviour. If it is done, it will only help this practice spread further, albeit clandestinely. [/FONT]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Given the legal freedom, more ppl may come out openly with their status of sexual preference, instead of practicing it clandestiney. Homosexuality cannot spread as a practice because an article is scapped i suppose...sexual preferences are supposedly inborn, ppl cannot be made into gays and vice versa.., yes sir, you have rightly pointed out it is rare and therefore seen as devient behavior.[/COLOR]

[FONT="]In my point of view, since it is only a social aberration, not a criminal act, it is best left to the elders in the society to counsel such persons. Unlike eunuchs, where there is birth disorder, homosexuality is by one's choice and hence it can be avoided by suitable counselling and by subjecting them to behaviour therapy with their consent.

[/FONT]Sir, this is a grave misunderstanding that has led to persecuting gays. Homosexuality is not by one's choice, just like autism is not by one's choice. Gays just happens to be wired differently.

Someone was married to a gay, the marriage was unconsummated, divorce happened and she later married someone else. It is very wrong to push a gay man into marriage, some parents even hope that if he cannot become a heterosexual then he will atleast turn into bisexual with counselling. Ofcourse counselling hardly helps them. When a man cannot stand a woman, ofcourse he simply cannot function. And it is not his fault. His brain is like that. It is actually very distressing for the man i hear, bcoz they suffer more from family pressure, contemplate suicide, get addicted to sleeping pills, and ruin their own lives.
[FONT="]

Here also, it shall not be by force or coercion, but by cajoling and by highlighting the benefits in the usual and ordinary sex behaviour. It requires careful professional act, patience and perseverance and cannot be performed easily by any one.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Finally, one word of caution. The impact of western culture is spreading at a greater pace than we could imagine in India. We do not copy the west in good things like punctuality, transparency, their professional approach to education to employment etc. but want to imitate them in certain bad aspects like individual liberty and privacy often at the cost of breaking of the family set up, getting things done by hook or crook, applying one's knowledge or skills for committing criminal offences and free sex too.[/FONT]
[FONT="]This kind of aping the west is very dangerous and will result in slow degeneration and death of our unique culture and heritage.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]Not sure the west has any role in influencing this type of sexual behavior in an individual, sir[FONT="].

My vote is certainly against homosexuality as it is against nature (like poles repel and unlike poles attract) and also because it has been accepted worldwide that homosexuality is unhygienic from the health point of view too[/FONT].

Its not against nature, imho. Also i heard they tend to stick to one partner, meaning they may have one partner since a long time before they marry a woman, they feel emotionally attached to the partner, not to the wife, whom they can talk to as a friend to the maximum extent, and nothing more. Lack of hygiene can happen in heterosexual partners too.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
welcome back pannvalan.

i am glad that we atleast agree to the level, re decriminalization of Sec 377.

we know of people here in canada, whose son was blatantly gay. don't know what happened, for suddenly it was announced that he had gone to india to get married.

sure enough, he came back with a pretty young tamil brahmin delhi brought up girl with all the endowments of education and good family.

within weeks, she packed up her bag and left for home.

do we need to guess what happened?

the idea of counselling away from being gay is a time immemorial device adopted by parents to wean their sons especially from being gay.

it is something about a male gay progeny that brings out such strong emotions. i do not know why.

lesbian behaviour between women does not appear to invoke so much public reaction. maybe because it does not threaten manhood?

again, i wonder, how many of us would feel so strongly, that if our son or daughter is unrepentant gay, that we would accept them.

would we invite our child and the gay partner to our home functions? public functions such as weddings? or would we keep it under wraps?
 

pannvalan

Well-known member
Homosexuality

"Ulagathodu Otta Ozhugal Palakatrum
Kallar Ariviladhar" - -Thirukkural

Peer group is the most influential group in any age group. Therefore, choosing one from amongst that group, in whom our problematic person reposes unshakable confidence and seeking his services to mould the person in question suitably to fall in line with the rest may be advised. This requires enormous responsibility and professionalism on the part of the counsellor. If necessary, assistance of a psycho-therapist may be taken.

I repeat that most of the abnormal behaviours are acquired over a period of time and hence correctable. Depending on the magnitude of the problem on hand, it may take time. Behaviour modification therapy is quite common and I have read about persons with such disorders entering normal life, after some years of tumultuous period undergoing great mental agony, self-imposed isolation and distress. Due to the social pressure and assumed guilt, some resort to the extreme step of taking their life too.

I am greatly disappointed and anguished too, on seeing some parents (esp. of male adults) marrying off their sons to an innocent girl, with the hope that everything will be alright after marriage, in due course of time. Having identified the problem, looking for a solution for it from elsewhere is highly condemnable. Even educated and rich people are no exception, who commit this blunder. Their affection
clouds their reasoning faculty, resulting in ruining of two young lives.

This is what I want the affected parties to avoid, by all means.
 
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