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Science and Spirituality

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sravna

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Science and spirituality truly represent two diverse ways to truth. Science believes in experimentation and verification in the physical world. When contradictions arise, new theory consistent with all the evidence is floated and thus the field evolves. Spiritualists on the other hand rely on the mind to grasp the truth and ability to put into practice what they perceive is the best evidence of truth. Spiritualists unlike scientists dont look for physical evidence but only evidence that satisfies their mind. They trust their mind more than the physical instruments.

But that is not to demean the scientists. Till mind evolves almost fully, one finds it difficult to get the deep intuitions. Experimentation and confirmation with physical evidence becomes a necessity to establish truths. As science evolves one would just look for tangible evidence in place of strictly physical evidence. I believe science will sooner or later land in the territory of spirituality and begin to prove spiritual truths.

As people also evolve simultaneously, they will be more able to practice spirituality truly.

So let minds and technology both evolve and then I believe then startlingly new perspectives of life and reality will emerge to one and all.
 
At the end of the day the Scientist at least brings forth results but the Spiritualists only tall claims.
 
That Renuka is the problem with those who promote science and benefit from it. They are not willing to embrace spirituality and want to maintain the stranglehold they have over the masses though spirituality is willing to acknowledge a scientist's work. Sad.
 
That Renuka is the problem with those who promote science and benefit from it. They are not willing to embrace spirituality and want to maintain the stranglehold they have over the masses though spirituality is willing to acknowledge a scientist's work. Sad.

No...its not a problem at all.

Spirituality mostly are just claims.


I am 100 % sure you fill your car with petrol still and not using spiritual energy for your car.

You still use lap top or smart phone to log into forum and not using mindwaves to type.

Its all cock Sravna.
 
OK Renuka. Let me not use the term spirituality. Do you believe in the benefits of having control over mind and senses? Dont you think that such control would immensely help in clarity of thinking and make one a better human at all levels? If there is some discipline which strives to make you become that, wont you be willing to embrace it and learn it and benefit from it?
 
OK Renuka. Let me not use the term spirituality. Do you believe in the benefits of having control over mind and senses? Dont you think that such control would immensely help in clarity of thinking and make one a better human at all levels? If there is some discipline which strives to make you become that, wont you be willing to embrace it and learn it and benefit from it?

Control over mind and senses is the ability of all humans.

We have our own inbuilt sense of judgment which we use in day to day life.

For eg..even driving..we sometimes feel we can speed tru a traffic light before it turns red..then some part of our mind tells us..to better not take the risk..slow down instead.

So using our sense of sight to gauge the situation the mind exerted some control on our actions.

So do I call this spirituality?

No..its basic instincts to ensure safety of self.


I do not believe in restraining my life..l believe in trial and error and there is never 100% right and 100% wrong.

Errors continue till death and error too is not bad..its just miscalcultation at times.

I dont want to kid myself that the human has to developed spirituality to gain control over mind and senses.

A mature human being knows life is constant flux..not always easy..at times we can cope at times we cant.

Nothing to be ashamed off even if we lose control but I would not want to subject myself to false believes of so called unproven forced discipline on the mind that some market as spirituality.

If you ask me honestly I feel the most uncontrolled mind I have seen so far is yours.

No offence here but its my personal diagnosis.
You have no acceptance of nature..only seeking to exert control and in that process you lose control.
 
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Renuka,

Spirituality has its own rigor and own ways of proving things. There are people who insist on scientific ways of proving truths and there are also those who trust their intuition more. But I think it is appropriate that there are two ways because we need understanding of both our environment and also our own nature. Finally all merge into one.

I will not call science as fake because I think it is just a different approach to truth. If you call spirituality as unproven and just tall claims, it means you are just not able to see the whole picture and it is fitting because people who swear by science proceed from the parts to the whole.
 
Renuka,

Spirituality has its own rigor and own ways of proving things. There are people who insist on scientific ways of proving truths and there are also those who trust their intuition more. But I think it is appropriate that there are two ways because we need understanding of both our environment and also our own nature. Finally all merge into one.

I will not call science as fake because I think it is just a different approach to truth. If you call spirituality as unproven and just tall claims, it means you are just not able to see the whole picture and it is fitting because people who swear by science proceed from the parts to the whole.

Amazing Grace..how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me..I once was lost but now am found ..was blind but now I see.




O' suddenly I can see the whole picture! Amazing ! Amazing!
Wait a second..fine prints read..God wrote..

Dear reader..I do not market spirituality

There is no picture actually..only a blank canvas for you to paint any shade you wish..the picture is yours..you are the artist..you create the 50 shades of play.
 
You can paint or smear whatever you want but dont ever think your work is the greatest creation. There are million others who create too.
 
Mind has a million plus facets.

Our understanding of our own mind is just the tip of the iceberg.

The potential of the mind-ours as well as others'-is vast and only a small bit of it is understood.

Science deals with tangibles within the space and time here and now.

Mind's capacity transcends time space and all other substrates.

An example:

I was a sworn communist then. I believed in what is here and now only. I could not let go this influence of materialst philosophy even after I outgrew the communist stronghold on me.

I visited my ancestral village one day with family and was standing and praying before the deity in the local temple there. The temple was dilapidated as is the case with many temples in the distant villages of Tamilnadu. With the decline of agraharams and residents of agraharams fleeing to cities and abroad what we have in these village agraharams is just the dilapidated temples and an old archakar who looks forward eagerly to that rare visitor from abroad. there are many such temples where even the nithya pooja is not conducted because of the non availability of an archaka.Finding the condition of the temple I felt very sad and so when I got back to my city I gathered the present addresses of the old residents of the agraharam meticulously and then formed a Kainkarya Sabha by calling for a General Meeting of the decendents of the village residents. I included the current residents too in the task. When our money contributions crossed the target I had fixed for the project, I decided along with the committee members to go for the renovation and kumbabhishekam of the temple.

At this point a friendly suggestion from an elderly gentleman led me to a prasna astrologer. As I was waiting for the man who was taking his breakfast then, I was not aware of the experience I was going to have. As he finished his task and came into the drawing room where I was waiting he had a look at my face for a good five minutes as I stood up. Then he asked me whether I had come to consult him about the desirability of doing a temple work. I was surprised. I said yes and he asked me to sit down.

He sat down too and closed his eyes for about ten minutes and then looking at me asked whether my ancestral house in the village was north facing. I said yes. Then he said the temple must be that of Navaneetha Krishna. i said yes. Then he said my house had a water channel running from west to east at the backyard. I said yes. Then he said the temple does not have utsava murthy-just a moola vigraha. I was dumb found and said yes. Then he concluded saying the Murthy would be happy if we carry out repairs and do kumbabhishekam.

And as if my time was up he waved his hands. I got up offered the fruits I had taken and came out. It took some time for me to come out of the effect of that meeting.

When I thought about it later, I understood that the human mind has several abilities and what we have understood is just the tip of the ice berg. The man had perhaps used my presence there as the link tto reach an extraordinary plane in which with his mind he could move back and forth in time and space. And that ability is perhaps what we call prasnam.

Sravnaji here too is talking about such an ability and he calls it spiritual energy. He calls it that perhaps because he is a teacher who teaches energy propogation to his students. But to call his ideas as just a lot of hot air is not right. Science technology came to my help when I reconstructed the temple building. So science technology is real. But that man there sitting in his house and talking to me about my village with photographic precision was also true. That is what is called the mind's ability by Sravnaji. I would prefer to give Sravnaji a long rope to come around to a conclusion as to whether he succeeded in his efforts to understand and profile his mind's abilities or not. I won't dare call it all mannangatti prematurely. Period.
 
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Vaagmi Ji . Thank you for your thoughts.Science is about experimentation with the objective of finding something tangible. Unless there is something tangible that is there in an experiment to prove a theory, science dismisses it. In your style, i would like to give science a long rope too and would want to believe that science can create something that can capture and work with the naturally intangibles such as the mental and spiritual energies and be able to influence the inner reality.. That is when science will really be coming of age.
 
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Dear Vaagmi Ji,

As to your question, whether I am close to understanding my mind, the answer is a big no. I would say I do not understand many facets of the mind though when I sit down and think about I am getting answers.I think it will take a long time to comprehend mind's full abilities and how they work but I will not be surprised if it happens in a flash.
 
How long is the long rope ? அனுமார் வால் length? Monkey's tail !

THE REALIST COMEBACK
Abraham Lincoln is supposed to have once asked one of his aides:
"If you count its tail as a leg, how many legs does a donkey have?"
"Five," replied the aide.
"No," said Lincoln. "Simply calling the tail a leg doesn't make it a leg."
[This well-known anecdote illustrates what all realists regard as the basic flaw in any form of idealism, which, they would say, includes fancy modern versions of anti-realism. We can say and think what we please; but hard, objective reality imposes severe constraints on what we can plausibly claim.]
 
If it takes 10 years to master the physical laws and the science behind them, it is my view it will take a 1000 years to fully understand the spiritual laws and the science behind them through experimentation alone.
 
I have the intuition that there are civilizations that have made progress in science far beyond our imagination to the extent they can be ruling the universe. Compared to such possible advances we are an infantile society as far as progress in science is concerned. At the same time I feel we are the most advanced spiritually considering the knowledge of the ancient Indian civilization.

God indeed loves ironies
 
If it takes 10 years to master the physical laws and the science behind them, it is my view it will take a 1000 years to fully understand the spiritual laws and the science behind them through experimentation alone.

1000 years?
I thought no one really knows?


इयं विसृष्टिर्यत ।आबभूव यदि वा दधॆ यदि वा न ।

यॊ ।आस्याध्यक्ष: परमॆ व्यॊमन्त्सॊ आंग वॆद यदि वा न वॆद ॥७॥



'(7) 'from whence this creation arose; did he create, or did he not? HE who presides over it in the highest heaven, HE alone for sure knows, or maybe HE does not know.
 
1000 years?
I thought no one really knows?


इयं विसृष्टिर्यत ।आबभूव यदि वा दधॆ यदि वा न ।

यॊ ।आस्याध्यक्ष: परमॆ व्यॊमन्त्सॊ आंग वॆद यदि वा न वॆद ॥७॥



'(7) 'from whence this creation arose; did he create, or did he not? HE who presides over it in the highest heaven, HE alone for sure knows, or maybe HE does not know.

I am just comparing to say that the difficulty in figuring out spiritual laws by experimentation alone is two orders of magnitude higher than figuring out physical laws, It is my intuition it is possible through the route of science also.
 
Science tries to find an answer for "how", but it cannot find an answer for "why"......

Brahmanyan
Bangalore.
 
I am just comparing to say that the difficulty in figuring out spiritual laws by experimentation alone is two orders of magnitude higher than figuring out physical laws, It is my intuition it is possible through the route of science also.

Dear Sravnaji,

As this is a thread about science and spirituality I take it that I have the liberty to write this:

Why this obsession with science?

Science is not the be all and end all of human existence.

Science or spirituality needs a vocabulary to share ideas. For ideas to be propogated, ideas to be independently verified and validated, ideas to be to be understood and improved upon and finally ideas to be understood, owned and enjoyed.

When this need is understood, units of measurement are born and standardisation is resorted to at a very fundamental level. Even today we respect as basic standard the one metre distance between two points enshrined in Lyons in France as the fundamental unit of measurement of distance because it gave our vocabulary a verifiable, repeatable, commonly usable unit of measurement understood across the globe.

The Ruther Ford/Niels Bohr nuclear centric, orbital electron model of atom worked well for a long time for us. . We even read a lot of meaning into it and drew our Periodic Table and used it intelligently to classify and group elements for convenience of understanding and studying.We were happy and benefited a lot and even use it today also. But we all know that the orbital electrons and a central nucleus is just a convenience. We know today that there is nothing finite. Schrodinger said beautifully with his theory and the cat example.

So forget about science for a moment. Let science be there with all its imponderables and uncertainties. The human mind needs every day a better tool to understand the given situation. As it finds ways to make such tools, it gains more and more info about the given situation. It thinks it has reached the ultimate truth only to be proved wrong/or only to be proved that it was just a relative truth when a new tool arrives. With the arrival of newer and larger computing capacities, we move inch by inch closer to the reality perhaps. the reality to be understood still remains a little far away.

We need common vocabulary to start with for sharing ideas about what you call spirituality and what I would call another reality. Or is it that we can not have a common vocabulary at all? Just a bit of loud thinking.


will continue..............
 
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Dear Vaagmi Ji,

Any field that tries to understand nature and create knowledge, tries to answer questions. Spirituality tries to develop knowledge by understanding the unseen inner nature. So if you are also talking of that level of reality we definitely can have a common vocabulary but if you are talking of a lower level as science does, what we need to do is to develop concepts that connect the two levels.

So what level of reality are you talking about?
 
We need common vocabulary to start with for sharing ideas about what you call spirituality and what I would call another reality. Or is it that we can not have a common vocabulary at all? Just a bit of loud thinking(#19)

The common word Numbers - It is basically Maths The number 1729 is Ramanujan magical Number purely based on his observation and interpretation on principles of Maths

Spiritual interpretation of number18 is not Maths but myths They aways try to discover some science fiction explain with implicit meaning ! and may push it as Science of numerology! They are quacks ! Scientific mind can be Spiritual but cannot allow scientific cover for myths!

https://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=7684
 
We need common vocabulary to start with for sharing ideas about what you call spirituality and what I would call another reality. Or is it that we can not have a common vocabulary at all? Just a bit of loud thinking(#19)

The common word Numbers - It is basically Maths The number 1729 is Ramanujan magical Number purely based on his observation and interpretation on principles of Maths

Spiritual interpretation of number18 is not Maths but myths They aways try to discover some science fiction explain with implicit meaning ! and may push it as Science of numerology! They are quacks ! Scientific mind can be Spiritual but cannot allow scientific cover for myths!

https://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=7684

It is about knowledge and not about science or spirituality. Anything that can be understood in a logical way, or even better realized by the mind implies correct knowledge about reality. So one should not be under the illusion that science and logic are synonymous and that is not the case with the other bodies of knowledge. In fact the logic of science gets assimilated in the logic of spirituality.
 
A note on higher logic.

Logic as we know is a consistent set of premises, assumptions and conclusion. In this case the number of premises or assumptions is limited and we base the conclusion on these closed set of premises.

One can do a trick on this to prove anything. You claim something and as long as there are no contradictions what you say is logical. I can say "you are a fool" and if you are not able to contradict then it will be logically assumed that you are a fool. That is the power of this logic. In fact science works on this principle except that scientists use physical evidence for proving and contradicting .
 
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In fact the logic of science gets assimilated in the logic of spirituality.(22#)

Logic of Eclipse : This can never be assimilated by logic of Raghu or Kethu!
 
Dear Madam,

If you understand that the logic of raghu and kethu is the greater logic and not the reverse case, you may understand the assimilation of the logic of eclipse.
 
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