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Rejoinder: Life lessons from Mahabharata.
- Thread starter prasad1
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???? Is that all?LOL
I expected more from you..your analysis that Krishna is Jesus..and so on.
What happened yaar? Why no new stories?
Renuka Ji –
It is unfortunate to see you being sarcastic.. about our scriptures & criticize them… instead of looking at the positive side ofit..
On the other hand, I have deep respect for our scriptures, guru parampara & its great traditions.. & try to follow them as much as possible… learn more about them…
People come in all shades of grey (no one is perfect) & that is what these scriptures portray with “learnings” from their mistakes,failings, greed, lust, etc…
so what I have listed is only the “tip of the iceberg”, there is a huge portion hidden below the surface.. but for that one needs have respect & come with an open mind…
As far as the “so called stories of mine” which you keep referring to repeatedly dripping with “sarcasm”… I stand by everything I said..Krishna is Jesus… Rama is the Pharoah Rameses, Immortal heroes - Hector is Indrajit, Achilles is Lakshmana, Augastya is Moses/Augustus, King Ravana is Brahma, Solomon, Julius Ceasar & Queen Cleopatra lived here… etc…
Ancient India was truly the “center of the world”…. They were all “our Kings & Queens” ….& am super proud of our culture, our heroes,…
Cheers,
It is unfortunate to see you being sarcastic.. about our scriptures & criticize them… instead of looking at the positive side ofit..
On the other hand, I have deep respect for our scriptures, guru parampara & its great traditions.. & try to follow them as much as possible… learn more about them…
People come in all shades of grey (no one is perfect) & that is what these scriptures portray with “learnings” from their mistakes,failings, greed, lust, etc…
so what I have listed is only the “tip of the iceberg”, there is a huge portion hidden below the surface.. but for that one needs have respect & come with an open mind…
As far as the “so called stories of mine” which you keep referring to repeatedly dripping with “sarcasm”… I stand by everything I said..Krishna is Jesus… Rama is the Pharoah Rameses, Immortal heroes - Hector is Indrajit, Achilles is Lakshmana, Augastya is Moses/Augustus, King Ravana is Brahma, Solomon, Julius Ceasar & Queen Cleopatra lived here… etc…
Ancient India was truly the “center of the world”…. They were all “our Kings & Queens” ….& am super proud of our culture, our heroes,…
Cheers,
Vaagmi
Well-known member
And that conversation ended with this post from me. stressed, underlined and highlighted part needs attention please:
dear Jaykay ji,
I am not being sarcastic...I being brutally honest.
I did get a mega shock when I read the Mahabharat for the very first time.....firstly I was innocently young then and felt nauseous reading that Parashara Muni did not marry Sathyavati and begot a child.
Then also reading about Vyasa begetting children with the queens..I was "What??which woman would allow some unknown male that too not even someone she loves to touch her even if it is for the sake of a child..it still does not sound right"
Then we read about the lust of Shantanu whose behavior affected his son's Bhisma ascend to the throne.
Tell me in real life..would you as a father behave in a manner that would make your child lose his/her rightful place in life?
So when I read the Mahabharat as a young person my initial reaction that it sounded scandalous and disgusting.
Then when I read it again as an adult..I started to view it more like a TV serial than actually a religious epic..that way I need not judge it as much but surely I am not going to base my life from anything in Mahabharat cos most characters there had excessive desire and revenge is their middle name.
Take Drona for example...his whole life was just to take revenge on Drupada just becos he got insulted by Drupada.
In real life many times many of us could have got insulted and let down by those who we trusted that would be there for us but do we go on a revenge spree?
We dont..the reason is cos we know revenge is bad..its a form of hatred and its a negative emotion and we just forget about any insult and move on with life taking it as part of our Karma..may be in some previous birth we wronged someone so in this birth we tasted the dose of our wrong doing.
So you see when simple people like us can think this way..there was no excuse for Drona to behave in such a manner.
I hope you get what I mean..in real life I have yet to meet people with that much desires as those in the Mahabharat!LOL
Just to add ...I have great reverence for the Bhagavat Geeta.
But when it comes to the Mahabharat its just another story book and nothing more. There is nothing much to it unless one is from the film industry!
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P.J.
Well-known member
To understand the subtle lessons of our Great Epics, one has reach that level.
Born in Kaliyug, with limited wisdom, Criticizing and throwing sarcasm on these Epics and puranas is like
blind persons trying to describe an elephant.
Now coming to WAR, acquiring land and wealth and loss of life of thousands of innocents , is because of the collective Karma of all those people who were the participants of the war.
Born in Kaliyug, with limited wisdom, Criticizing and throwing sarcasm on these Epics and puranas is like
blind persons trying to describe an elephant.
Now coming to WAR, acquiring land and wealth and loss of life of thousands of innocents , is because of the collective Karma of all those people who were the participants of the war.
OP
OP
That was my sentiment when I started this thread.
I did not form an opinion when I read Mahabharata for the first time. I read it and discuss it in Balvihar a number of times. Then have discussed it in study groups. I have read it and every time I find some other claim that makes me think about the people in the story. The events must have happened, the people involved would not be considered in the same light with today's values.
So as a story Mahabharat might be interesting, just as Merchant of Venice is both have characters and views that is not valid in today's values.
Just because we have elevated Mahabharat as an itihasa and inserted GOD in it it does not become Today's value.
We must not loose sight of the present day values (We all have one), and try to impose our values on others by quoting the so called SCRIPTURES.
Please do not insult others who have different views.
Just because you revere it, it need not have same value to others.
I suppose you were not born in Kaliyuga?
P.J.
Well-known member
Dear PJ sir,
I would humbly beg to differ.
I feel my response is very relevant cos you said this:
Since you have mentioned that a person born in Kaliyuga has limited wisdom etc blah blah that directly implies that you are NOT born in Kali Yuga.
Hence I asked you if you were born in Treta Yuga..
I could be wrong..may be you could have been born in Sathya Yuga too!LOL
One would need to do Carbon Dating to know the age of individuals born in other Yugas.
BTW why did you drag in an elephant and a blind person? Totally underestimating the deducing capacity of a blind person..in fact that elephant and blind men story should be banned cos it demeans the visually challenged.
Also why bring in an elephant???..as it is elephant related cases have even reached Supreme Court so I feel we need to leave the Pachyderms out of our discussion.
BTW one can only have limited knowledge but not limited wisdom cos only knowledge can be quantified..wisdom can NOT be quantified.
I hope you see the major relevance of my post.
Your Sincerely
Renu
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P.J.
Well-known member
With insignificant knowledge about our Great Epics and Puranas, anyone can write , talk about them negatively as if they got wisdom to question the ancient scriptures.
To understand even the smallest percentage of the subtle lessons of Mahabarata, Ramayana and other Great Epics one has to reach a level of maturity " aham brahmasmi" ; before writing negatively about any of our Puranasa, Ithihasas, Epics Etc, one has to ponder over their contribution in any field which is worthwhile
and remembered for centuries like our ancient Saints.
To understand even the smallest percentage of the subtle lessons of Mahabarata, Ramayana and other Great Epics one has to reach a level of maturity " aham brahmasmi" ; before writing negatively about any of our Puranasa, Ithihasas, Epics Etc, one has to ponder over their contribution in any field which is worthwhile
and remembered for centuries like our ancient Saints.
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Vaagmi
Well-known member
1. Epics are narratives belonging to a period. They are texts through which a certain dharma and philosophy are explained. The characters and events through which the narrative moves reflect the society at that time. It is like the palm leaf of a previous century in which a kavya is written. Kavya is important as the substance and not the palm leaf which is just the medium, a perfect one.
2. All religions have adopted this method. The Bible (old testament) explains many things (even after the massive editing done by the Nicean Creed) which will sound unacceptable to the world today. It includes things like even incestual relationships.
3. Those who judge the philosophy and dharma explained in the epic by the narrative style and the characters and episodes miss the substance of the epic and are mired in the cobwebs of the period related verbiage and episodes.
4. While scriptures are apaurusheya and eternal truths, epics are stories through which a certain philosophy and dharma is explained from these scriptures to the people.
5. "மேலாடை வீழ்ந்தது எடு என்றான் அவ்வளவில் நாலாறு காதம் சென்றது ............" நளன் ஓட்டிய தேர். For a civilization in which computer commands are instantly executed by the very thought processes as they take place without the intervention of even a keyboard, this 4x6 Kaatham in a few seconds may be just nothing. But for the poet who wrote the நளவெண்பா it was tremendous speed. Time is a funny alchemist.
6. So there is no use taking positions and fighting it out here. The dhrishtikones are different and what is perceived are also different. They will never match. The effort is just a waste of time.
Yes there are better things to do. The call has come from the kitchen to go and have the bath. It comes in the midst of the Sri Stuti which is being mixed with the cabbage which is getting cooked. I have to run. LOL.
2. All religions have adopted this method. The Bible (old testament) explains many things (even after the massive editing done by the Nicean Creed) which will sound unacceptable to the world today. It includes things like even incestual relationships.
3. Those who judge the philosophy and dharma explained in the epic by the narrative style and the characters and episodes miss the substance of the epic and are mired in the cobwebs of the period related verbiage and episodes.
4. While scriptures are apaurusheya and eternal truths, epics are stories through which a certain philosophy and dharma is explained from these scriptures to the people.
5. "மேலாடை வீழ்ந்தது எடு என்றான் அவ்வளவில் நாலாறு காதம் சென்றது ............" நளன் ஓட்டிய தேர். For a civilization in which computer commands are instantly executed by the very thought processes as they take place without the intervention of even a keyboard, this 4x6 Kaatham in a few seconds may be just nothing. But for the poet who wrote the நளவெண்பா it was tremendous speed. Time is a funny alchemist.
6. So there is no use taking positions and fighting it out here. The dhrishtikones are different and what is perceived are also different. They will never match. The effort is just a waste of time.
Yes there are better things to do. The call has come from the kitchen to go and have the bath. It comes in the midst of the Sri Stuti which is being mixed with the cabbage which is getting cooked. I have to run. LOL.
OP
OP
I suppose if there is praise for epics or scriptures are posted it is ok even if it is lie. whereas a true criticism of epics as impractical in the modern world is wrong. By whose standard?
OP
OP
PJji,
Did you read your post?
I need not be a genius to turn around this statement.
Just change the word negative to positive. Your posts and to a great extent other as well assumes that they understand a little bit. NONE of us has reached the state of "Aham Brahamsmi".
Vaagmi
Well-known member
Prasadji said this in post #33:
My views:
There is lack of understanding and depth in this post by prasadji. Now let me take the example I had given in my earlier post.
The medium is just a palm leaf and the substance or info conveyed is a Kavya.
You can praise the palm leaf for the shape of it being a perfect rectangle, its edges being at perfect right angles and it being prepared carefully by applying fungicides over it (like the turmeric juice) and how each leaf in a bundle is carefully washed with charcoal after writing over it so that the letters stand out boldly to reduce the eye fatigue etc.,
You can criticise the letters through which the kavya is presented for they have all க் as just க only and it is the same with every மெய்யெழுத்து in the palm leaves in the bundle. You may find it difficult to read the kavya because of this non differentiated மெய்யெழுத்து and உயிர்மெய்யெழுத்து.
you may write a thesis on the compulsions that made this style to be adopted by the writer.
But you would have missed the beauty of the kavithai and the kavya in the process.
All that you are saying in criticism of the scriptures and the epics is of this variety.
Skip the palm leaf and its shape, your difficulties in reading the letters etc. and try to read and understand the kavya. There is a lot in what is written there.
For every mantra in our faith the rishi who visualised it is given along with the meter in which it is written. It is not the writer who is mentioned, it is the the one who "saw" the mantra is what is given. There is meaning in this practice.
Beethoven, a stone deaf individual, used to see the music and its notes in colors before writing them down. He has himself claimed this. So his pieces were not just musical notations written down, they were a symphony of colors.
It is all how you perceive, not how you see. LOL.
Originally Posted by Vaagmi
1. Epics are narratives belonging to a period. They are texts through which a certain dharma and philosophy are explained. The characters and events through which the narrative moves reflect the society at that time. It is like the palm leaf of a previous century in which a kavya is written. Kavya is important as the substance and not the palm leaf which is just the medium, a perfect one.
4. While scriptures are apaurusheya and eternal truths, epics are stories through which a certain philosophy and dharma is explained from these scriptures to the people.
6. So there is no use taking positions and fighting it out here. The dhrishtikones are different and what is perceived are also different. They will never match. The effort is just a waste of time.
My views:
There is lack of understanding and depth in this post by prasadji. Now let me take the example I had given in my earlier post.
The medium is just a palm leaf and the substance or info conveyed is a Kavya.
You can praise the palm leaf for the shape of it being a perfect rectangle, its edges being at perfect right angles and it being prepared carefully by applying fungicides over it (like the turmeric juice) and how each leaf in a bundle is carefully washed with charcoal after writing over it so that the letters stand out boldly to reduce the eye fatigue etc.,
You can criticise the letters through which the kavya is presented for they have all க் as just க only and it is the same with every மெய்யெழுத்து in the palm leaves in the bundle. You may find it difficult to read the kavya because of this non differentiated மெய்யெழுத்து and உயிர்மெய்யெழுத்து.
you may write a thesis on the compulsions that made this style to be adopted by the writer.
But you would have missed the beauty of the kavithai and the kavya in the process.
All that you are saying in criticism of the scriptures and the epics is of this variety.
Skip the palm leaf and its shape, your difficulties in reading the letters etc. and try to read and understand the kavya. There is a lot in what is written there.
For every mantra in our faith the rishi who visualised it is given along with the meter in which it is written. It is not the writer who is mentioned, it is the the one who "saw" the mantra is what is given. There is meaning in this practice.
Beethoven, a stone deaf individual, used to see the music and its notes in colors before writing them down. He has himself claimed this. So his pieces were not just musical notations written down, they were a symphony of colors.
It is all how you perceive, not how you see. LOL.
OP
OP
Vaagmiji,
All the yeda-yeda is nothing more than crowing from a heap of dung.
My original post was referring to a post about the life lessons from Mahanharata. My contention was that epics, stories, essays etc have a message that may be valid, but historical details and customs of yesteryear may not be valid in modern time.
You may have your own opinion about the applicability of the historical events.
When you read Aesop's fables you do not question about animals talking in human way, you accept the moral of the story. You do not question the location of the race between the hare and Tortoise, you accept that slow and steady win the race.
WOW as usual you are right in your mind and everyone else is wrong. You know it all and others lack understanding.
All the yeda-yeda is nothing more than crowing from a heap of dung.
My original post was referring to a post about the life lessons from Mahanharata. My contention was that epics, stories, essays etc have a message that may be valid, but historical details and customs of yesteryear may not be valid in modern time.
You may have your own opinion about the applicability of the historical events.
When you read Aesop's fables you do not question about animals talking in human way, you accept the moral of the story. You do not question the location of the race between the hare and Tortoise, you accept that slow and steady win the race.
Vaagmi
Well-known member
Prasadji
1. If all that I have written is crowing from a heap of dung I wonder what kind of rat hole in the excreta do you sit and write from.
Your third para is a statement of the obvious.
Try to grow up. You have a nasty temper. I don't intend to transact with you any more until you get back to a normal decent state of mind.
If what you think as my so called heap of dung is true get just one endorsement from any member here. Your effort will show you where you stand in this forum.
1. If all that I have written is crowing from a heap of dung I wonder what kind of rat hole in the excreta do you sit and write from.
Your third para is a statement of the obvious.
Try to grow up. You have a nasty temper. I don't intend to transact with you any more until you get back to a normal decent state of mind.
If what you think as my so called heap of dung is true get just one endorsement from any member here. Your effort will show you where you stand in this forum.
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P.J.
Well-known member
Thanks, Corrected my post.
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