• This forum contains old posts that have been closed. New threads and replies may not be made here. Please navigate to the relevant forum to create a new thread or post a reply.
  • Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Nirguna Brahman in our philosophy

Status
Not open for further replies.

sravna

Well-known member
Understanding Nirguna brahman is a good exercise in understanding our philosophy in general. I will touch upon the eternal and the blissful nature of brahman. To start with let us know what the purpose of life is. We live to learn the truth. All the experiences happen to us in a way that we see the pros and cons of good and bad and help us in finally realizing the truth.

It is the mind that interacts with the physical world. As long as you have something left to learn you have to be present in a physical world and you need a mind. When you learn the truth or when you attain moksha, the mind merges into the soul and you are freed from the physical reality. The final truth you learn and are able to practice being dont be selfish enough to do harm to others and don't don't be generous enough to harm yourself.

What is the significance of this truth? The significance is it helps you in making the mind immune to pressures and temptations. If you are immune to the above you become immune to making mistakes and bad decisions and immune to failure.

So the goal is to have a balanced mind that makes you immune to failure. You can also say that you become indestructible or eternal. So becoming one with brahman is to end up in the above said state of mind.

Other than the eternal aspect of brahman there is also an important aspect of brahman being the experience of brahman. It is said to be a bliss. This is one of the less understood aspect. Why is the experience of brahman a blissful one?

Let us see it this way. We achieve happiness when we obtain what we seek? But why do we seek at all? Because we are lacking something. But if you don't feel the need to seek or if you feel complete in yourself won't you derive the greatest happiness or bliss? That is what the state of a realized mind is. It doesn't feel the need to seek.

The above discussed aspects of eternal blissful brahman are the ones that symbolize it. Our philosophy therefore only shows the way to achieve this end and while doing so we are only perfecting us more and more. Let us focus on this main theme of our religion instead of being sidetracked by peripheral issues which in reality have been misinterpreted and abused by some miscreants. Why should those dark chapters be still given importance when no sane person harbors such thoughts today and why the central philosophy is being given only marginal importance when it can be of immense utility in the present times?
 
Last edited:

Visalakshi Ramani

Well-known member
Nirguna brahman is beyond the power of conception of most people. That is why saguna brahman was projected.
But if people don't want even these lovely Gods with lovelier qualities, what could be the status of nirguna brahman?


Here is short poem to this effect.

Religious Cult.

Is it wrong for an educated adult

To have faith in his religious cult? :noidea:

To perform with devotion and exult?

And with reverence honor the Occult? :angel:

Need he be branded as a mere poult?

In many stages of its growth or moult!

This senseless barbarian insult, :rant:

Will surely turn sour and result;

In an unholy widespread tumult,

Have they left sanity in a vault? :rolleyes:
 

Visalakshi Ramani

Well-known member
[h=1]உருவமும், அருவமும்.[/h]

எங்கும் நிறைந்த இறைவன் எவனோ அவன்
எந்த உருவமோ அன்றி உடலோ இல்லாதவன்;
எங்கும் நிறைந்த அவனை வெறும் அருவமாக
எண்ணிப் பார்ப்பதும் வெகு கடினமே ஆகும்.

ஐம்பொறிகள் வழியே அனைத்தையும்,
ஐயம் திரிபற அறிந்து கொள்ளும் நாம்,
ஐயம் பொறிகளின் உதவி சற்றும் இன்றி
ஐயனையும் கூட அறிந்துவிட முடியாது.

உருவ வழிபாடு தோன்றியது இந்த
ஒரு காரணத்திற்காகவே அறிவோம்;
அருமை பெருமைகள் அனைத்தையும்
ஒருங்கே பெற்ற ஒரு அழகிய வடிவு!

நினைக்கும்போதே மனம் நிறைந்து
நனைக்கும் கண்ணீர்த் துளிகள் வழிந்து;
இனிக்கும் அந்த உருவத்திடம் மயங்கி
மனத்தை பறி கொடாதார் யாரோ?

உருவ வழிபாட்டை மறுக்கும் மதமும்
உருவங்களின் துணையையே நாடும்;
இறைவனின் தூதனாகவோ, அல்லது
இறைவனின் சிறந்த குழந்தையாகவோ.

வெற்றிடத்தின் மீது மனத்தைப் பதித்து,
வெகு நேரம் தியானம் செய்வது கடினம்;
உள்ளத்தைக் கொள்ளை கொள்ளும் அழகில்
உள்ளத்தைத் தொலைத்துவிடலாம் எளிதாக!

மந்திரம், தந்திரம், யந்திரம் என்கின்ற
மூன்றுமே பலன் அளிக்கும் ஒருபோலவே;
சுந்தர ரூபம் தரும் இன்பத்தை வேறு
எந்த ரூபமுமே தர இயலாது அல்லவா?

வாழ்க வளமுடன்,
விசாலாக்ஷி ரமணி.
 

Visalakshi Ramani

Well-known member
URUVAM AND ARUVAM.

The God who pervades the universe is in fact formless. But it is difficult for us to imagine anything without a form!

We depend on our five sense organs to gain knowledge about the outside world. Without their help, we can grasp or understand nothing at all!


The worship of God in various forms emerged to make it easy for us to think about and meditate on God!


A form so beautiful, so pleasing and so charming that it gives the onlooker perfect peace of mind. A deep glance at one’s Ishta Deivam is sure to fill any body’s mind with pleasant thoughts which express themselves as tears and roll down the cheeks.


Even the religions which do not attribute any form to God depend on other forms.

They use the forms of the Son of God or the Messenger of God. It is difficult to concentrate or contemplate on emptiness or Soonya. That is why the idol worship is very useful .


Manthram, Thanthram and Yanthram are equally effective but none of them can give the pleasure a lovely form of God can give.

The happiness born out of the lovely form of God is unmatched!
 

renuka

Well-known member
They use the forms of the Son of God or the Messenger of God. It is difficult to concentrate or contemplate on emptiness or Soonya. That is why the idol worship is very useful .


Idols form a mental impression in the mind for perception.
Some religions even use a direction to focus the mind(Qiblat).
Well even we have the concept of Digaambara(Directions as Ones Garment).
 

N.R.Ranganathan

Well-known member
உருவாய் அருவாய் உளதாய் இலதாய்
மருவாய் மலராய் மணியாய் ஒளியாய்
கருவாய் உயிராய் கதியாய் விதியாய்
குருவாய் வருவாய் அருள்வாய் குகனே

இங்கு உருவமும் அருவமும் சொல்லப்பட்டுள்ளது.
 

N.R.Ranganathan

Well-known member
To concentrate and fix your mind an object , that is an idol or image or picture,
is necessary for the beginners. As you progress with the sadhana, it will
automatically lead you to nirgunopasana.
 

N.R.Ranganathan

Well-known member
Even though Madhusudhana Sarawathi and Appayya Dikhshithar were staunch
advaitis, they were attached to Lord Krishna and Lord Siva respectively. It is
not as if advaitis have neglected saguna brahman worship.
 

suraju06

Well-known member
கண்டவர் விண்டிலர், விண்டவர் கண்டிலர்!!
 

sangom

Well-known member
I do not think Acharya Sankara advocated the upaasana (sitting near, literal meaning but commonly understood as worship with great concentration). Nirguna Brahman can only be "experienced" and, according to Sankara's advaita, this is possible even when one is alive. (Visishtadvaita does not support this.)

Sankara suggests nididhyaasana, constant, profound and repeated meditation on (about) the self for this purpose. However much one may worship idols or God forms, one will never reach a stage of meditating on the formless; meditating (concentrating) on the formless, has to be started from the very beginning. The two are like two different highways not having any connection at any point and each one leads to its own separate destination.
 

Yamaka

New member
"Let us see it this way. We achieve happiness when we obtain what we seek? But why do we seek at all? Because we are lacking something. But if you don't feel the need to seek or if you feel complete in yourself won't you derive the greatest happiness or bliss? That is what the state of a realized mind is. It doesn't feel the need to seek." Sravna in the OP

I am always puzzled about the Philosophies of Theists like Sravna!

As a self-proclaimed Atheist, this is what energizes me everyday:

1. Seeking "New Knowledge" by Hypothesis Testing and Experimentation... I get the thrill of my life if experiments prove my hypothesis. This is how we build new paradigms... this is how Science Engineering & Technology (SE&T) grows, it enriches the Society. That's the Happiness of the individuals and the Society.

2. As I have said many times before, S E & T makes the Society happier and gives it more leisure time.. What do I do with that leisure?

I use it to think of Solutions for Other's Problems! Like

How to alleviate poverty?
How to provide Medical Care to ALL citizens?
How to spread Freedom to ALL citizens of the world? etc. etc. For, Seeking Happiness is the fundamental RIGHT of all humans, and probably all Primates.

In other words, Atheists think of tangible changes, positive changes in the Society...leading to Happiness for ALL.

On the other hand, Theists here ask "Where's the NEED to seek Happiness?" or "Why don't you feel Complete in yourself?"

"Won't this give greater happiness or bliss?", when they have asked the need for it already!

Very weird...

:)
 
Last edited:

Nara

Well-known member
... Nirguna Brahman can only be "experienced" and, according to Sankara's advaita, this is possible even when one is alive. (Visishtadvaita does not support this.)
Nirguna Brhman is anathema to VA. for them ParaBrhman is an ocean of auspicious qualities. Among them six are primary. They are jn~nan, bala, aiswarya, vIrya, shakti, and tejas. From these an infinite number of qualities such as souseelyam, vAtsalya, mardawa, arjawa, gambhirya, owdarya, chaturya, sthairya, dhairya, etc., etc. emerge.

VA rejects the concept called Jeevan-Mukta, mukthi is possible only in Sri Vaikunta. This can be attained only through Bhakti Yoga or Prapatti. Bhakti yoga is the culmination of Karma Yoga, i.e. a person living strictly according to Varnashrama darma without any expectations but pleasing the lord. This will transition the jeeva into the first stage of Bhakti, one which the jeeva acts only for the pleasure of Sriman Narayana. This transitions the jeeva into the second stage called Para Bhakti, one in which the jeeva sees the lord in everything. The third and final stage is parama Bhakti. In this stage it becomes unbearable to the jeeva to be separated from Sriman Narayana, and this stage is characterized by the annihilation of all karma. At this point the jeeva ascends to Sri Vaikunta and becomes a Mukta Jeevatma.

Prapatti is one in which the jeeva gives up on Bhakti Yoga for one reason or another and pleads with Sriman Narayana to stand in place of Bhakti Yoga and remove all karma so that she can be admitted into Sri Vaikunta after the conclusion of the current life.

This is VA/SV philosophy/theology in a nutshell. To them, nirguna Brhman being supreme is an abomination.

Cheers!
 
OP
OP
sravna

sravna

Well-known member
Dear Shri Yamaka,

Not that theists are not seeking knowledge. Their thesis is that profound knowledge can only be acquired directly through mind and the physical experimentations just wouldn't serve that objective.

Regarding seeking happiness, you seem to have not grasped the logic of what I said. But anyway I think first hand experience is the best way to realize that truth.
 

C RAVI

Well-known member
Dear Shri Yamaka,

Not that theists are not seeking knowledge. Their thesis is that profound knowledge can only be acquired directly through mind and the physical experimentations just wouldn't serve that objective.

Regarding seeking happiness, you seem to have not grasped the logic of what I said. But anyway I think first hand experience is the best way to realize that truth.

Exactly!!!!

Many Atheists tend to misunderstand the theists logic. Sometimes I get confused as how a Scientiest Atheist who can experiment with complex factors and explore many things, out of his/her super brain, can fail to understand the logic/anology produced and presented by Theists. The next moment, I get the clarity within myself that, it is nothing but their endurance towards explorations and the killer instinct to remain focused on facts and figures to come up with more inventions and advancements. And that, this is how such souls are assigned for a job with such perfect mind set and determinations.

Sri Sravna,

You have eloquently explained about the Happiness of/in mind in your OP.

We all know and would agree, as Shri Yamaka said in his post #11, that, all atheist and theist in common would seek knowledge, ethical pleasures, comfort, good standards etc.et.c for themselves and for their family. The duty bound attitude towards fulfillment of family members is again one's own requirement and every one would seek the ways and means towards accomplishment.

The prime focus in your post - "Nothing more to seek and still to be happy" has to be referred to two different cases. That may help Atheist to understand this caption

1) Sanyasi - A hermit would prefer to remain in isolation from this glitering world of verieties, would least bother about anything for his survival, would refrain from seeking any sort of pleasures (other than the pleasures of divinity) and would ramain focused on realizing and glorifying GOD. All with absolute happiness in this Mind

2) Socially Active - People who are into social living setup, coping with the challenges of this progressive world, dealing with struggles and temptaions etc are finding extreme difficulty to be in peace and to be mentally happy. They want to acheive everything as possible. They want all comforts, luxury and safety. No one would stand out and say - "I have food, shelter, clothing and a descent standard of life. Thus, I would not require anything more/extra".

In order to achieve more, they would have the following strategies/expectations

1) To do hard work to any extent and try hard to acheive what was desired (many a times beyond one's reasonable capacity). In this process EITHER they may end up spoiling their health and losing the chance (for themselves and their family) to leave in peace with "atleast" what they had OR end up indulging in unscrupulous/unethical/illegal initiatives to acheive what ever they have desired. As well, having acheived in all the possible tricky ways and means, they may again end up loosing their wealth, prestige/respect/dignity etc..etc..sooner or later and suffer mental agony.

2) Invest money on speculations, suffer loss and end up torturing oneself, undergoing mental shock leading to prolonged sickness, heart failure or even committing suicide.


The above examples are just in terms of wants and needs of humans to live with atmost contentment, in different ways and means (ethical OR unethical), untill their death, from the time immorial.


The only constant AND positive and productive "reality" of God/Spirituality" / its "Realization & practices" / "KARMA", are the forces that helps human to elevate onself from being mean, restless, cruel, mentally sick etc and lead one's life with at most peace, happiness and righteousness, in this challenging physical world of trial, holding "complex human brain/mind and heart".

The realization of Brahman, the related concepts and philosophies, the related ultimate truth alone can guarantee a balanced and healthy life to humans in this physical world.



'Seek more knowledge beyond your imagination/capacity, seek more positive attitudes, good moralities and fine qualities beyond your inborn character & seek wisdom and correct perceptions as much as possible BUT don't seek anything Against the Positive side of your Mind & Heart. Seeking and Acheiving all these by vibrating the mind with Spritual Energies, with the efforts towards realizing Brahman, while living in this physical world of wants & needs, in a righteous manner is the True Happiness" - This is the state of the "Realized Mind" that can ever be in pleasure with the sense of fulfillment.






 
OP
OP
sravna

sravna

Well-known member
The point is this. Everyone understands it is not possible to live like a recluse in this modern world. But that is only the physical aspect. You can always keep your mind pure and strong and not let it be adultered.
 

sangom

Well-known member
Nirguna Brhman is anathema to VA. for them ParaBrhman is an ocean of auspicious qualities. Among them six are primary. They are jn~nan, bala, aiswarya, vIrya, shakti, and tejas. From these an infinite number of qualities such as souseelyam, vAtsalya, mardawa, arjawa, gambhirya, owdarya, chaturya, sthairya, dhairya, etc., etc. emerge.

...

This is VA/SV philosophy/theology in a nutshell. To them, nirguna Brhman being supreme is an abomination.

Cheers!

When two such absolutely contradictory points of view have been upheld by two most highly respected and revered Acharyas of Hinduism and when most Hindu believers will not dare question or even doubt the status of these two Acharyas or Seers as people who had "experience of the Supreme Reality", the only logical conclusion is that none of these two descriptions of the Absolute Reality or Brahman, is reliable. Truth is elsewhere, "Where No Man Has Gone Before".

Hence all these blah blahs about Nirguna Brahmopaasana and all that is just fit for consumption of gullible heads which can be filled with a false sense of being highly spiritual by discussing these and similar topics.
 

sarang

Well-known member
Spirited discussion about quantum theory, big bang, expanding universe or black holes does not make one a research scientist. When one contradicts a black hole or a negative universe, he is not considered as a cheat till he is convinced of the right theory by his study and research.

Acharyas come to apparently contradicting conclusions but use the same data - vedas, upanishads and brahma sutra. The path they have found and recommend is the outcome of their experience, and divine revelation.

Unity in diversity is the essence of sanatana dharma and the apparent contradictions do eventually merge or vanish. Gullible heads are they who fall easy prey to ideologies like communism, fascism, atheism who, in their ignorance claim theirs is the only path to happiness.

When two such absolutely contradictory points of view have been upheld by two most highly respected and revered Acharyas of Hinduism and when most Hindu believers will not dare question or even doubt the status of these two Acharyas or Seers as people who had "experience of the Supreme Reality", the only logical conclusion is that none of these two descriptions of the Absolute Reality or Brahman, is reliable. Truth is elsewhere, "Where No Man Has Gone Before".

Hence all these blah blahs about Nirguna Brahmopaasana and all that is just fit for consumption of gullible heads which can be filled with a false sense of being highly spiritual by discussing these and similar topics.
 
OP
OP
sravna

sravna

Well-known member
When two such absolutely contradictory points of view have been upheld by two most highly respected and revered Acharyas of Hinduism and when most Hindu believers will not dare question or even doubt the status of these two Acharyas or Seers as people who had "experience of the Supreme Reality", the only logical conclusion is that none of these two descriptions of the Absolute Reality or Brahman, is reliable. Truth is elsewhere, "Where No Man Has Gone Before".

Hence all these blah blahs about Nirguna Brahmopaasana and all that is just fit for consumption of gullible heads which can be filled with a false sense of being highly spiritual by discussing these and similar topics.

I do not understand what Shri Sangom means? Does asking one as Hindu philosophy does, to take the righteous path meant for the consumption of gullible heads? Or does it sound so impractical? Even if it is so and reaching the goal is not easy, one should at least not lose sight of it.

It seems that Shri. Sangom would want us to believe that there is something other than righteous living that is the panacea for all woes.
 

prasad1

Well-known member
There are no bad students, there is only bad teacher.
You need to find right teacher. Personally I am seeker, and have not found one yet.

It is wrong to criticize any one else's guru because you do not understand the message. The method tailored to your requirement will not fit others. This is not a ready made clothing shop. If the cloths does not fit you go find the right tailor (teacher).
 
OP
OP
sravna

sravna

Well-known member
"Let us see it this way. We achieve happiness when we obtain what we seek? But why do we seek at all? Because we are lacking something. But if you don't feel the need to seek or if you feel complete in yourself won't you derive the greatest happiness or bliss? That is what the state of a realized mind is. It doesn't feel the need to seek." Sravna in the OP

I am always puzzled about the Philosophies of Theists like Sravna!

As a self-proclaimed Atheist, this is what energizes me everyday:

1. Seeking "New Knowledge" by Hypothesis Testing and Experimentation... I get the thrill of my life if experiments prove my hypothesis. This is how we build new paradigms... this is how Science Engineering & Technology (SE&T) grows, it enriches the Society. That's the Happiness of the individuals and the Society.

2. As I have said many times before, S E & T makes the Society happier and gives it more leisure time.. What do I do with that leisure?

I use it to think of Solutions for Other's Problems! Like

How to alleviate poverty?
How to provide Medical Care to ALL citizens?
How to spread Freedom to ALL citizens of the world? etc. etc. For, Seeking Happiness is the fundamental RIGHT of all humans, and probably all Primates.

In other words, Atheists think of tangible changes, positive changes in the Society...leading to Happiness for ALL.

On the other hand, Theists here ask "Where's the NEED to seek Happiness?" or "Why don't you feel Complete in yourself?"

"Won't this give greater happiness or bliss?", when they have asked the need for it already!

Very weird...

:)

Another point Shri Yamaka. I am not saying do not seek. It is not possible if one has a need. But what I am trying to say is that a person who does not feel the need to seek is a realized one.
 

Nara

Well-known member
Another point Shri Yamaka. I am not saying do not seek. It is not possible if one has a need. But what I am trying to say is that a person who does not feel the need to seek is a realized one.
Is it possible that a such a one is a lazy one? If you don't agree, how to see them apart?
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
sravna

sravna

Well-known member
Is it possible that a such a one is a lazy one? If you agree, how to see them apart?
:) Shri Nara laziness is connected to inaction though the need is there. But even in thought you do not feel the need you are a realized one
 

C RAVI

Well-known member
The point is this. Everyone understands it is not possible to live like a recluse in this modern world. But that is only the physical aspect. You can always keep your mind pure and strong and not let it be adultered.

Shri Sravna,

Atheists agree with it. That one has to keep his/her mind pure and strong and free from adulteration, for better and descent/civil survival.

The objection is about the validity of realization of Brahman in order to keep onself uniformly composed and righteous ever, in any situation of struggles while working towards achievements, dwelling in higher position, facing failures, and undergoing adversities. And acheive "realized state of mind" in order to retain onself intact with humility, sweetness and mentally & emotionally healthy.

But, as you have concluded in your post #13, first hand experience is the must for an individual to realize the truth.

Only than they can know 1) Why innocent people suffer unreasonably 2) why a innocent get convicted and imprisoned, 3) why a guilty roams around freely, 4) why even a competent person remain devoid of opportunities and resources, 5) why and how expected helps arives from unexpected ways and means etc..etc..

And to realize, understand and accept "good luck" & "bad luck" and what way these lucks are related, inter-related and what are it's purposes? To realize, understand and accept that, "good wishes" & "blessings" are associated with spiritual energies.

 

Nara

Well-known member
:) Shri Nara laziness is connected to inaction though the need is there. But even in thought you do not feel the need you are a realized one
sravna, I made a typing mistake, I said, "If you agree, how to see them apart?", what I meant was " If you don't agree, how to see them apart? Obviously you don't agree, so how do you tell one from the other?

BTW, to need to live and survive is instinctive, we can speculate all we want, but all the talk about not needing anything is no less different than trying to define invisible pink unicorn :)

best ....
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top
Thank you for visiting TamilBrahmins.com

You seem to have an Ad Blocker on.

We depend on advertising to keep our content free for you. Please consider whitelisting us in your ad blocker so that we can continue to provide the content you have come here to enjoy.

Alternatively, consider upgrading your account to enjoy an ad-free experience along with numerous other benefits. To upgrade your account, please visit the account upgrades page

You can also donate financially if you can. Please Click Here on how you can do that.

I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks