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My doubt- Sri Krishna's incarnation

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Moodan's doubt:

Around 45 years back, a police lorry entered our colony early in the morning. We all were surprised as to why a police lorry at such a time? The police had come to arrest a person residing in the colony who was working as a clerk in the Collectorate and the crime he had committed was that he had taken a bribe of Rs10 previous day. It was a sensational news and the entire colony was discussing the same next few days.
It was just 45 years back. Today the less you talk about corruption the better.It was just 45 years back the society had definitely adhered to values in life. Now you go back three thousand five hundred years back and one can only imagine the adherence to the values.

SriKrishna has clearly stated:

Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bavathi bharatha : Abhyukthan adharmasya thadhathmanam srujanmyaham; parithranaya sadhunaam vinaashaaya dushkrutham, dharma samsthapanarthaya sambavami yuge yuge.

What were the conditions at that time that prompted the incarnation of Srikrishna?? This doubt has been nagging me for a while. I will be happy if any one of you could throw some light on this.







 
Moodan's doubt:

Around 45 years back, a police lorry entered our colony early in the morning. We all were surprised as to why a police lorry at such a time? The police had come to arrest a person residing in the colony who was working as a clerk in the Collectorate and the crime he had committed was that he had taken a bribe of Rs10 previous day. It was a sensational news and the entire colony was discussing the same next few days.
It was just 45 years back. Today the less you talk about corruption the better.It was just 45 years back the society had definitely adhered to values in life. Now you go back three thousand five hundred years back and one can only imagine the adherence to the values.

SriKrishna has clearly stated:

Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bavathi bharatha : Abhyukthan adharmasya thadhathmanam srujanmyaham; parithranaya sadhunaam vinaashaaya dushkrutham, dharma samsthapanarthaya sambavami yuge yuge.

What were the conditions at that time that prompted the incarnation of Srikrishna?? This doubt has been nagging me for a while. I will be happy if any one of you could throw some light on this.

Shri Moodamadaiyan,

May I say that I am no better than you in discussing such serious and intricate topics as the one raised by you above. Still, I am encouraged to respond because of your very unassuming log-in name or handle as they say.

I think we must be very careful in interpreting the verses of the Bhagavadgeeta to our present problems or for a solution therefor. First, let us take the context of that verse. It is the beginning of the fourth Chapter called as "jnaana karma samnyaasa yoga". You will see that Krishna ends the third Chapter on Karma Yoga with the final advice that "O Mighty armed (mahaabaaho) Arjuna! thus realizing that which is beyond Reason (Buddhi) and controlling yourself by your self, destroy this enemy, difficult to conquer, viz., Desire. Having said so many unconnected things under the heading of Karma Yoga and since in the beginning of the third Chapter Arjuna has been made to complain to Krishna that the latter (i.e., Krishna) was talking either side and confusing him (Arjuna) whoever the scribe was who wrote the fourth Chapter might have thought that a little more clarification is necessary for whatever cocktail of advices have been included in Chapter III. (You may be interested to know that sloka 3-42 is possibly a slight alteration of verse III-10 of Kathopanishad.)

The IV Chapter, therefore, resorts to the Rajini style bravado of "naan oru taDavai connaal... etc.," and Krishna is made to claim that he is about to give a secret but best advice which he originally gave to Vivaswaan (the Sun God) who told it to his son Manu and then it went to Ikshvaaku, etc., to many of the Raajarshis but it was lost due to efflux of time (kaalena). Arjuna then puts forward a typical 21st. century doubt; "vivaswaan was born much before you, then how is it possible that you advised him, etc." This brings the scribe to the exact situation he probably planned, viz., to expand on Krishna's greatness! In verses IV-5 through IV-11 Krishna is made to explain his greatness. The two slokas you cite in your OP come in this portion. The promise of Krishna has to be taken as meaning that He (Krishna) will come again when, ACCORDING TO HIS PERCEPTION the dharma has been sullied enough for him to protect the Sadhus according to his perspective and to kill the wrong-doers, again as per His definition. Unfortunately the definitions as per Krishna of these three terms, dharmasya glaaniH, saadhuH and duShkritaH are unclear in the Bhagavadgeetha. That is why perhaps Krishna did not come when Buddha and Mahaveera denigrated Vedic Hinduism and the latter went into substantial decline; again when the Islamic invasions and the western invasions subdued India.

But going by the whole of Mahabharata, may be we can say that those who worship Krishna are the saadhuH and the enemies of the saadhus are the dushkritaaH. The bribe-taking officials and government servants are mostly devotees of all Hindu Gods which includes Krishna. I personally know of quite a few who celebrate 'Raadhaakalyaanam' periodically with great gusto and even for these they collect lakhs of rupees from different sources. Can we say, then, that some increase in the bribery of our Govt. officials is cause enough to brand it as sullying the Dharma; may I ask where in our Dharmasastras is bribery prohibited?

Therefore, kindly do not confuse scriptures and the real world. Get on with your life, if you are not a retired old bandicoot awaiting the visa for the other world - like myself, try to follow the proverbs, "while in Rome, do as the Romans do" and the Malayalam proverb "kakkaan paThikkunnavan niykkaanum paThikkaNam" which means one who learns stealing (
kakkaan paThikkunnavan) should also learn how not to get caught (niykkaanum paThikkaNam).


 
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SriKrishna has clearly stated:

Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bavathi bharatha : Abhyukthan adharmasya thadhathmanam srujanmyaham; parithranaya sadhunaam vinaashaaya dushkrutham, dharma samsthapanarthaya sambavami yuge yuge.

What were the conditions at that time that prompted the incarnation of Srikrishna?? This doubt has been nagging me for a while. I will be happy if any one of you could throw some light on this.




Dear Sir,

I have an answer for you...It explains well the definition of Sadhunaam(The Inner Reality of all of us).
Dushkritaam(our own crust of Ego that grows and tarnishes our true nature)
Dharmasamsthapanarthya is the advise given by the Lord..that is Satsang,Systemic attention to Self Control and Self Improvement..in other words God is re establishing the Dharma in us.

So it is not that God is going to come down in some trigger happy form and only protect a selected few and slay the rest.

Sanathana Dharma concept of God is not a partial one..God is for all.

BTW Lord Krishna gave us the Geeta..that is the greatest timeless gift to entire mankind.
Just by following the Geeta we can regain our Sadhunaam status.



God incarnates to foster spiritual aspirants (sadhus), it is said. The term sadhus does not refer to just those renunciants who dwell in forests. Sadhu is the virtuous person who forms the inner reality in each one of you. Every being is a sadhu, for all mankind is an embodiment of love, peace and bliss. By allowing the crust of ego to grow thick and fast, your real nature is tarnished. By the action ofsathsang (the company of the noble and pious), and systematic attention to self-control and self-improvement, you can overcome the delusion that makes you identify with the body, its needs and cravings.
[SIZE=-1]- Divine Discourse, Sep 7, 1966.[/SIZE]
 
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Hi Sangom,

First of all I thank you very much for making efforts to send a detailed reply to the query of mine. What I liked the most in your reply was" Get on with your life, if you are not a retired old bandicoot awaiting the visa for the other world". That was quite hilarious and had to laugh my heart out with the comment like that. ( Are only the retired bandicoots issued a Visa to other worlds?).

As is well known, it is the perceptions which rule. I respect your views on Bhagavat Gita, What happened when Buddha or Mahavir were there or when the muslims ruled and british ruled. I think these are the topics that need to be discussed separately as I feel that the core issue of my post was not answered to my satisfaction.Bribe taking is not a big deal and why mentioned it was just to showcase the degradation in general.

I have to appreciate and am amazed at your knowledge levels. But I will wait for some one who can clear this doubt of mine which is honestly nagging me for a while(My perception)

Regards,

Moodamadayan
 
Dear Madam,

I thank you so much for the reply to the query I have raised. As rightly observed by you, the purpose is to inculcate Dharma in all of us. Am not at all contesting all that have been stated by you.

My doubt in the first place is, what were the factors prevalent in the society at that time that prompted Lord Vishnu to incarnate as Krishna- am definitely not expecting Krishna to land again in the assumed form from the above, for sure.

Regards,

Moodan
 
My doubt in the first place is, what were the factors prevalent in the society at that time that prompted Lord Vishnu to incarnate as Krishna- am definitely not expecting Krishna to land again in the assumed form from the above, for sure. Regards, Moodan
I am not sure if I can give you an intended or convincing answer. Let me try.

5000 years, was the end of dwapara yuga, and with the set of Kali (wheel of time), there was supposed to be decline in dharma. Probably, that was the last period of the rishi legacy (Vyasa, Suka) and the culture of innocent gopis(rishis), devoted dwarka prajAs. Krishna simply wouldn't want to miss the last opportune. Krishna had the great Vyasa to compile all the vedas, puranas, His own leela (Bhagavatham), Gita. Though Gita 7.4 verse was true, there were other reasons (Lot of devoted, simple, realized people) that motivated the Lord for His incarnation.

But, in this age, it is not true. Krishna has no real reasons to visit. There would be only a handful scholars/practitioners of vedic tenets, and these vaidikas wouldn't wish for an avatar of Krishna among this ignorant, confused society. So, the magnitude or counts of adharma has no significance for the advent of Vishnu. Plus, the poeple (of Bharata!) are totally brain-washed for last 2000 years in unimaginable ways and are irreparable or irreversible. The avatar of Vishnu, even as a big peace or spiritual guru will be futile, as there are 100s of bogus gurus that have followers.
 
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Is Gita a historical document to be taken literally? Or a philosophical treatise for us to understand the philosophy?
Sometimes we gets bogged down in the unnecessary fluff without understanding the subtle meanings.
I am sure there a pundits who have memorized Gita, can recite it chapter and verse, and have intelectual understanding of it but still are very worldly.
Does it matter if Krishna manifests in person or not?
If one atma can transcend this cycle of birth and death, then someone annihilated that adharma to uphold dharma.
 
But, in this age, it is not true. Krishna has no real reasons to visit. There would be only a handful scholars/practitioners of vedic tenets, and these vaidikas wouldn't wish for an avatar of Krishna among this ignorant, confused society. So, the magnitude or counts of adharma has no significance for the advent of Vishnu. Plus, the poeple (of Bharata!) are totally brain-washed for last 2000 years in unimaginable ways and are irreparable or irreversible. The avatar of Vishnu, even as a big peace or spiritual guru will be futile, as there are 100s of bogus gurus that have followers.

Dear Sir,

Frankly speaking God is not really situated somewhere up in heavens to pop in for a visit from Time to Time.

God is all inclusive..God is all encompassing..I feel it is even wrong to say God "visits" us.

Shambavaami Yuge Yuge does not mean God takes a flight down from heaven to come to earth and then goes back!LOL

God just "becomes" from Nirakara to Sakara so that we humans can comprehend Him.

There is nothing outside of Brahman..we really can not speak on behalf of God as to say

Krishna has no real reasons to visit. There would be only a handful scholars/practitioners of vedic tenets, and these vaidikas wouldn't wish for an avatar of Krishna among this ignorant, confused society.

In Geeta Lord Krishna clearly says:
na tv evāhaḿ jātu nāsaḿ
na tvaḿ neme janādhipāḥ
na caiva na bhaviṣyāmaḥ
sarve vayam ataḥ param

Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.

So where does the question of Krishna "visiting" us arise when He had always existed?
 
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Why is that Hindus only understand the Abrahamic God? why do they not accept Brahman? It is fascinating that the Abrahamic God is limited, He does not control Devil or the Evil. The Brahman is all encompassing, and everlasting/ Brahman is never born nor does it die.
The manifestations are purely for our understanding.
Like Kabir says
pothi padh padh jag muwa pandit bhaya na koy, dhai akshar prem ka padhe so pandit hoy.
So instead of mastering the bookish knowledge understand the subtel knowledge of Brahman.
Have the training wheel only for getting the confidence to ride the bike, then discard the training wheels to enjoy the bike ride.
Like Mr Sangom says
Jaise Til Mein Tel Hai, Jyon Chakmak Mein Aag
Tera Sayeen Tujh Mein Hai, Tu Jaag Sake To Jaag






Translation
Like seed contains the oil, fire in flint stone
Your temple seats the Divine, realize if you can
 
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Dear Mr.Prasad & Mme.Renuka,

Thank you for the contribution.There is no denial of the fact that everything is Brahman and only Bramhan and nothing else. I too understand that.What can be a better expression than Atma or Nirvana Shatakam by Sri Adi Sankara? From the standpoint of a Jnani or a realized being what you both have stated are truths. But we do operate in a physical plane and in which event we need to understand a few things at that plane too. Ajaata Vaada- I strongly feel attracted too but from my current physical plane, am sure both of you will understand that my doubt is a very genuine one...

Regards,

Moodamadayan
 
Dear Sir,

Frankly speaking God is not really situated somewhere up in heavens to pop in for a visit from Time to Time.

So where does the question of Krishna "visiting" us arise when He had always existed?

Renuka ji,

There are two different things - Supreme Person is both transcendental and Immanent.

Though , He is Immanent in the heart of all beings, He doesnot present Himself to everyone, except
to those realized and regarded by Him.
[When Hanuman tears open His heart, You have a darshan of SitaRam, but when we do, our Prana would leave!]

Else, why haven't anyone of us seen the Lord, whereas all the Rishis and sages have seen
similar to the forms of those murthi's in the temples (and puranas and vedas). We are just
meditating and worshipping those forms, hoping we will get the darshan at least at the
last moment [thru His grace, for moksha!].

All that Sanat-Kumaras knew of Lord Vaikunta only as described by their father, Brahma [who did penances (at the brink of Milky ocean)
in the early kalpas, when realized he was alone without the creator nearby!]. As they were just sky-wanderers, they reached the
kArya Vaikunta, paar-kadal (Transcendental LOKA beyond] and happened to meet the Lord, and be-wildered upon seeing the real form of the Lord [Bhagavatam].

'Visit' may not be an appropriate, rather 'avatar' or jayanthi or appearance was all that I meant. I had to say 'Visit', else
people think, He was just a myth or human or some 'Saguna'. By 'Visit', I meant, He appears as the same Transcendantal Person, as in
Heavens (Paar-Kadal).

He exists forever , unchangingly, independently (nir-vikara/nir-akara), unless we make our own efforts and to wish to see Him or attain Him,
why should He reveal Himself to us?! [meaning why should He grace us for ultimate or specific goals!] Oops! seems like we
forgot about AvAhanam! Invocation/Prathista.

Shambavaami Yuge Yuge does not mean God takes a flight down from heaven to come to earth and then goes back!LOL

Shambhavaami Yuge Yuge , means HE appears in His own Form (Transcendental) with all immense powers to defend the creation.
Ref: Gita Verses 4.6 and 9.12

He definitely take a flight or form to appear. He did so as Matsya (during First Kalpa (4-8 billion years), to get all the Rishis of last Creation] to the
upper lokas. He was a tortoise in the next kappa, to churn the Nova to create the solar System. He was the mighty boar that brought up
the distraught/raped Earth from the solar-nebula (hranya-aksha). He was the Narasimha (that appeared from the pillar, only for Prahalad,
but wouldn't for anyone-else even though He exists forever). So, does all avatars are With wonderful/transcendental forms, esp. to upheld dharma
for the devotees and the dear ones.
 
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Like Kabir says
So instead of mastering the bookish knowledge understand the subtel knowledge of Brahman.
Have the training wheel only for getting the confidence to ride the bike, then discard the training wheels to enjoy the bike ride.

Prasad Ji,

You still need the bicycle, but you get rid of only its accessory, called 'Training Wheel'. Thus, You never can get rid of the main IDEA/Substance!!

We use a sloka book first, after mananam, we may not use that book, BUT we still NEED the SLOKA!!!

You need the external forms of the Brahman, so that you can VISUALIZE the form in your mind and Meditate. Else, what
are you meditating without the FORM/QUALITIES/NATURE of the LORD???

Translation
Like seed contains the oil, fire in flint stone
Your temple seats the Divine, realize if you can

What are your conveying here?? Everyone knows Temple seats the Divine Murti. Is Kabir suggesting that we dont need Murti/Vigraha, as temple itself is Divine??

Even if Seed contains the oil, we need oil as a separate object for its attribute (viscosity/liquidity). Even if flintstone has fire, fire itself is required as a
separate substance. Even if all creation are part of that Brahman, we all still individuals, and take different forms accordingly to expiate our karma.

Why is that Hindus only understand the Abrahamic God? why do they not accept Brahman?
It is fascinating that the Abrahamic God is limited, He does not control Devil or the Evil.

Where is the Abrahamic God in Krishna Avatar??

Brahman is un-limited, He is infinite, and considered a Super-Atma (Super-Being) and the Omni-scient(All-Knowing). If Human is the most knowing Being,
then Brahman being Infinite (count and Size), must be a Great, Giant Human, which is why He is considered the Purusha-Uttama, which ties all auspicious
qualities to HIM. The Great, Giant Being slashes the il-logic of Formless Being! How does such Brahman lose HIS Supremacy/Infiniteness, when taken an Avatar????

The Brahman is all encompassing, and everlasting/Brahman is never born nor does it die.
The manifestations are purely for our understanding.

Where did you get this Quaranic or Judaistic Logic? Atma is immortal, but still we are physically born and die, which means we take various
forms based on our karma/jnana. Whereas Avatars, only for VISHNU, is nir-vikara (unchanging, not due to karma),
is a Swa-mi/nir-akara( Self-Master), Self-supporter and Supporter of all creation .

Whereas , for all various gods, lose their titles/positions/forms after their kalpa. E.G: Dhruva was blessed to be a North Star for this Kalpa. Dhruva's Atma is
also apaurusheya, but takes physical birth with various karmic forms (created with the support of Vishnu) . P.S: North Star changes over time!
 
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Renuka ji,

There are two different things - Supreme Person is both transcendental and Immanent.

Though , He is Immanent in the heart of all beings, He doesnot present Himself to everyone, except
to those realized and regarded by Him.
[When Hanuman tears open His heart, You have a darshan of SitaRam, but when we do, our Prana would leave!]

Else, why haven't anyone of us seen the Lord, whereas all the Rishis and sages have seen
similar to the forms of those murthi's in the temples (and puranas and vedas). We are just
meditating and worshipping those forms, hoping we will get the darshan at least at the
last moment [thru His grace, for moksha!].

All that Sanat-Kumaras knew of Lord Vaikunta only as described by their father, Brahma [who did penances (at the brink of Milky ocean)
in the early kalpas, when realized he was alone without the creator nearby!]. As they were just sky-wanderers, they reached the
kArya Vaikunta, paar-kadal (Transcendental LOKA beyond] and happened to meet the Lord, and be-wildered upon seeing the real form of the Lord [Bhagavatam].

'Visit' may not be an appropriate, rather 'avatar' or jayanthi or appearance was all that I meant. I had to say 'Visit', else
people think, He was just a myth or human or some 'Saguna'. By 'Visit', I meant, He appears as the same Transcendantal Person, as in
Heavens (Paar-Kadal).

He exists forever , unchangingly, independently (nir-vikara/nir-akara), unless we make our own efforts and to wish to see Him or attain Him,
why should He reveal Himself to us?! [meaning why should He grace us for ultimate or specific goals!] Oops! seems like we
forgot about AvAhanam! Invocation/Prathista.



Shambhavaami Yuge Yuge , means HE appears in His own Form (Transcendental) with all immense powers to defend the creation.
Ref: Gita Verses 4.6 and 9.12

He definitely take a flight or form to appear. He did so as Matsya (during First Kalpa (4-8 billion years), to get all the Rishis of last Creation] to the
upper lokas. He was a tortoise in the next kappa, to churn the Nova to create the solar System. He was the mighty boar that brought up
the distraught/raped Earth from the solar-nebula (hranya-aksha). He was the Narasimha (that appeared from the pillar, only for Prahalad,
but wouldn't for anyone-else even though He exists forever). So, does all avatars are With wonderful/transcendental forms, esp. to upheld dharma
for the devotees and the dear ones.


Dear Sir,

Didn't you see what I wrote in my post?
I did say the Sambhavaami Yuge Yuge means from Nirakara to Sakara(that summarizes all that you wrote above)
 
The discussion has been taken up into very high (and learned philosophical) levels. But I want to again say, to the OP, that you should read the small print in the insurance (assurance?) policy ostensibly issued by Krishna. He never said He will come when you or I (or for that matter, anyone else, other than Krishna himself) felt that the Dharma has been 'gLAnified', that it has to be re-established well (sam-sthApana) and that it can happen again and again (yugE yugE); something like a free servicing/maintenance agreement in which the supplier's technicians will come at their convenience for periodical maintenance check-up, and if the product supplied goes phut in the meanwhile, there is no surety that the service-man will come and repair it immediately. The same applies to Krishna's saying.

The original poster has the option to live with his nagging doubt or, forget about Geeta itself and live like so many millions of people in this world who may not even know one line of Geeta.

My two cents, pl.
 
Dear All who have replied to the doubt,

A special mention to Shri. Govinda as I have not so far thanked him for his earnest efforts to quote from scriptures to clear my doubt ( others I have done in previous replies).

If my understanding is right from all the replies- 1) Shri. Govinda feels that Lord Vishnu incarnates when enough sadhus are around the globe, on whom the Lord out of his compassion for their efforts decides to incarnate so that they can have his dharshan. ( If I remember right , I have read somewhere that only seven people at that time were aware of Sri Krishna as an avatar of Lord Vishnu ( Someone needs to clarify on this)
2. Mme.Renuka and Shri.Prasad opine that when any individual is able to step out of his limitations and realizes the SELF/BRAHMAN or ATMA can be considered an avatar as Krishna is also BRAHMAN and this keeps happening repeatedly.

3. Shri. Sangom has stated very clearly that it depends on the perception of Krishna that when Dharma is glanified... he may choose to descend and not because you and I bother about it.

I am not sure about the answer yet... Meanwhile let me also do some research on the topic.... as rightly mentioned by Shri.Sangom- will continue to get on with my life as I have an important project ahead of me and my next ten have to be totally devoted to that. Last five days I was away and hence could not reply.... Thanks once again,

Moodamadayan
 
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