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Learning physics through Vedas and Puranas - 3

thebigthinkg

Active member
Background

In the last 2 posts on Learning physics through vedas and puranas, here and here, I had talked about concepts of energy, entropy and heat.

Work and Heat


Work is physical movement of matter particles from one point to another (called Ganapati), while Heat is random oscillatory movement of matter particles in a place (called skanda).

The very first 'Work done' in Universe


Just after the Big-Bang Universe was a bundle of energy. The spacetime had not inflated then.

If we believe Purusha Suktam, the Universe was just ten angulas wide. That ten angulas Purusha expanded into the universe that we see now says the Purusha Suktam.

Science says the early Universe's spacetime was contrained to a very small region and it underwent a huge inflation/expansion. This is called cosmic inflation epoch in which Universe's spacetime expanded greatly. All the energy in the Universe along with matter forms exists within this expanded spacetime.

This cosmic inflation is the first 'Work' or physical movement done in the Universe. Some energy had 'worked' on the spacetime and physically expanded it. Thus the Universe started with Ganapati, 'Work' done on spacetime.

The expanded 'spacetime' is the 'large' (lamba) 'womb' (Udara) in which the Universal matter evolution happens. It is where the past, present and future of Universe lies. Hence Ganapati, first work done in Universe is called 'lamba udara', the one who caused the large womb.

The next Work done in Universe


The next set of 'Work' is done in Universe, in formation of hadrons, nucleus and atoms.

Work is 'done' when protons, neutrons are formed by Quarks binding together. Work is done when atomic nucleus is formed by protons and neutrons bind together. Work is also 'done' when atom is formed when nucleus binds with electrons.

All (Protons, neutrons, nucleus, atom) these 'work' on a common principle. The common principle is


  1. Particles have potential energy raised up-hill by virtue of their charge, position etc..
  2. Different particles in the same body have different potential energies
  3. This leads to particles existing in potential wells, where particles with minimal potential are surrounded by particles with maximum potential
  4. Such particles form bound states, where they remain free within a region, but are bounded within that region
  5. Un-bounded particles can absorb any amount of energy and release any amount of energy. But bounded-state particles can no longer do so.
  6. Bound states causes the particles to exist in discrete and specific energy levels only
  7. Particles now cannot absorb any energy. So energy absorption or incoming energy is not allowed (blocked).
  8. Particles can absorb (allow) only specific energies.
  9. When they absorb such specific energy, their current orbits are broken up. They jump to next orbit levels or move to next specific energy level
  10. For eg. electrons move to the next orbits and thus have a larger 'headroom' to move around
  11. The 'Work done' energy is thus stored in them as their larger headroom or orbits
  12. This is applicable to hadrons, nucleus and atom formation.
This can be seen in the following example of electron binding with atomic nucleus.


Distribution of potential energy

Potential energy is the energy in the matter raised up (as in a hill) by virtue of position, charge etc, called pArvati (of the parvat).

All particles in a matter form (say electrons and protons) do not have uniform 'raised up-hill', potential energy. Some particles are raised upto a maximum and some to a minimum. This un-even distribution leads to formation of particles in 'potential wells' which is particles with low potential surrounded by particles with high potential energy.

This leads to formation of bound states, in which a particle is bound between two potentials. An example of bound state is 'atom' in which electron is bound to the nucleus. (1)

An electron bound to nucleus has a potential energy and kinetic energy. The potential and kinetic energy of the electron varies in such a way electron finds itself in a 'well' between two regions of potential energy. It is free moving only within that region. (2)

Difference between unbound electron and bound electron


A free moving unbounded electron can absorb any amount of energy and also lose any amount of energy. An electron bounded to a nucleus cannot absorb any amount of energy. If it absorbs any amount of energy it can then lose also all its energy and that means it would spiral off into the nucleus.

The reason why an atom formed without electrons spiraling into nucleus (and hence all the Universe exists today) is the 'nature' of the 'bound' state electron, in which it is forbidden to absorb or release any random amount of energy.

Work leads to a larger 'headroom'


In binding to an atom, the electron loses some of its identity. It is no longer a separate entity. It no longer acts entirely like an unbound electron. It can absorb and emit only certain specific amounts of energy (sometimes called quanta).

Atoms can absorb energy in any amount, but the electrons that orbit the atoms or atom fragments, which are no longer separate entities, cannot absorb any amount of energy. They only absorb energy in specific or “discrete” amounts. The reality of this was first expressed mathematically, in the case of the simplest hydrogen atom, by physicist Niels Bohr. He developed the mathematical expression that, in essence postulated such discrete behavior.

These quantities of energy (quanta) that electrons are allowed to absorb are associated with photons. Photons are quantum units of Electromagnetic radiation. Those photons of Electromagnetic radiation that are in the visible to the naked eye are called 'light' and are associated with various colors of visible light that we see.

In short, electrons bound to atomic nucleus absorb energy in the form of Electromagnetic radiation in discrete amounts. This leads to some Work Done on the Electron and electron getting some Work energy.

They move from one energy level to another energy level absorbing energy. They move from a lower orbit to higher orbit.

Story of pArvati taking bath

This is the story of pArvati (potential energy) going to take bath (in a potential well).

As we saw earlier, pArvati is the potential energy of particles. When particles are in potential well (taking bath), any amount of energy (shiva) is not allowed to enter.

The boy which blocks that entry is the discrete energy, the current electron orbit around the nucleus which is created due to potential energy (pArvati). That is pArvati (potential energy) creates the boy (electron orbit).

The electron orbits around the atomic nucleus are the 'Candra'. 'bAlacandra' are younger orbits or lower orbits. The boy in the story is the bAla-candra (another name for Ganapati), the orbit in which electron currently moves around. Shiva is the energy of photons that tries to come in and are blocked.

The only way for Shiva (energy) to enter is to break the boy (electron orbit) and give the boy (electron orbit around nucleus) a larger 'head-room' (elephant-head) to move around. That is the electron moves physically from a lower orbit to a higher orbit. This physical movement is the Work done on the Electron.

That is the incoming energy has to perform 'Work' on the electron and in that process, the electron is broken from its orbit and moves to a larger orbit (larger head-room is created). The boy (electron orbit) gets a larger elephant head (larger orbit) to move around with increased energy.

The same principle is applicable in the formation of protons, neutrons and nucleus too apart from atoms.

References

1. https://www.decodedscience.org/important-differences-bound-unbound-electrons/50620
2. https://courses.physics.illinois.edu/phys485/fa2015/web/bound.pdf


-TBT
 
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renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Isnt there any law to stop innovations on religion just becos someone only sees it tru the lense of physics?


Day in and day out some new theory from various " scholars" come up that too without the decency to put a disclaimer that its merely a unproven hypothesis etc

Does Hinduism need such insults by any Tom,Dick or Harry having a seizure speaks as an authority on religion?
 
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thebigthinkg

Active member
I completely understand the skeptical, critical, ridiculing approach to such kind of works. That's natural and expected.

If you go through the content and find that you are able to grasp these concepts, then do share. Any feedback on content, welcome

-TBT
 

a-TB

Well-known member
I completely understand the skeptical, critical, ridiculing approach to such kind of works. That's natural and expected.

If you go through the content and find that you are able to grasp these concepts, then do share. Any feedback on content, welcome

-TBT

Dear Mr TBT:

Have a question that is one source of my skepticism.


Vedas and Puranas are old and cannot change with time at all.

If you believe they are true, you should really be trying to use Vedas and Puranas to prove Physics is right.
But you are doing other way around. You are taking the current thinking in Physics to be Gospel and trying to prove Puranas are right.

Models of Science change over time. So you will keep finding different proofs for Puranic stories?

If you think Puranas are right without any conditions then why dont you use them to prove the science and even predict what Science has not achieved so far ?

If Science catches up with your predictions you will get big recognition. What say you?
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Dear Mr TBT:

Have a question that is one source of my skepticism.


Vedas and Puranas are old and cannot change with time at all.

If you believe they are true, you should really be trying to use Vedas and Puranas to prove Physics is right.
But you are doing other way around. You are taking the current thinking in Physics to be Gospel and trying to prove Puranas are right.

Models of Science change over time. So you will keep finding different proofs for Puranic stories?

If you think Puranas are right without any conditions then why dont you use them to prove the science and even predict what Science has not achieved so far ?

If Science catches up with your predictions you will get big recognition. What say you?

That I feel I had asked that before cos i noticed whenever a new finding is online..right away someone comes up with a way to fit it in Puranas using physics terminology.

Words like hadron..quarks..positron are not found in Puranas..so obviously someone cant use Puranas to prove physics cos one wont know what to say or what to write.

So one waits for science to discover then try to fit it into Puranas.

That is why I am wondering why do we have to put up with all these innovations of thoughts here?

I am not opposing for the heck of it.

I can put a question here too..
I can go Purana too and ask why only physics?
Why not biology?
Why not maths?
Why not chemistry?
Why not even sex?

Let me start my own thread and try to be a Modi and say Ganesha's head was a plastic surgery! Lol...somehow everyone thinks plastic surgery is cut..copy and paste.

Anyway..lets wait and see..
If scientists come up with some new term like Decepto- Leprichauns..surely we would have some Puranic story to support it.

Its high time we Hindus learn to let go of our obsessions..at one language site a person wrote that Brahmins taught Middle Eastern spice traders Hebrew!
When I asked for evidence..the person did not answer.

Its high time we admit that God has no chosen land or chosen race or chosen religion or chosen anything..

Get it into our brains that Puranas could have been a Disney Fairy tales for educating and entertaining humans but lets not go beyond that.
 
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renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
There is a proverb in Malay that goes "Lembu punya susu, Sapi dapat nama"

It means "Its the milk of the cow but the bull gets the credit(the name)


This refers to Ghee.

In Malay Ghee is called Minyak Sapi.
Minyak means Oil/Fat

Now Sapi means Bull in Malay.

So one might wonder why Ghee is called Bulls Oil when the milk is from the cow.

Well to be honest here..this is slight disconnect in the Malay proverb becos they did not realize that the word for Ghee in Malay ...Sapi is derived from the Sanskrit word for Ghee (Sarpis).

So thats the whole confusion here since a bull is also called Sapi everyone thought the bull got the name.

Now why did I bring up about this Cow and Bull and Ghee story?


Cos its relevant here!

One is trying to use all the hard work of scientists and take credit for it by fitting it into the Puranas.


So lets rephrase it in Malay "Ahli Sains punya kerja,orang lain dapat nama"

Translation "Its the work of the scientist but another person takes credit for it"
 
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thebigthinkg

Active member
Dear Mr TBT:

Have a question that is one source of my skepticism.


Vedas and Puranas are old and cannot change with time at all.

If you believe they are true, you should really be trying to use Vedas and Puranas to prove Physics is right.
But you are doing other way around. You are taking the current thinking in Physics to be Gospel and trying to prove Puranas are right.

Models of Science change over time. So you will keep finding different proofs for Puranic stories?

If you think Puranas are right without any conditions then why dont you use them to prove the science and even predict what Science has not achieved so far ?

If Science catches up with your predictions you will get big recognition. What say you?

You are right in the sense 'retro-fitting' concepts of science to Vedic verses is not the way to prove 'Vedas are science'. But if that 'retro-fitting' is consistent across all the vedic verses and puranic stories, then we can say the 'fittment' is better. There is a lot more correlation and less standard deviation in the fitment.

Though Correlation is not causation, if we are able to prove high degree of correlation and consistency across Vedas and Puranas, it can definitely lead to new learnings.

Though I think that we can find new knowledge and even if new knowledge is proved, due to the method which it is done, it will be seen more 'co-incidental'. So the first step is to prove high degree of correlation and consistency.

Till now my understanding is that there is a good degree of correlation and consistency (for eg. you will find I use Shiva as Energy, Vishnu as Higgs/mass, Brahma/Hiranyagarbha as four dimensional spacetime, Linga as Energy-Momentum Hyperboloid, Aditya as creative/binding energies, Daitya as destructive/Weak force energies, uSa is the dawn of Universe as is Cosmic Microwave Background, brahman is evolution, Soma is strong interaction, Apa is electromagnetic interaction, Madhu is weak interaction, Purusha is Cold Dark matter and matter combined, Prakrti is visible matter which evolves etc etc etc.. etc across all my translations).

But this is not enough.

I should be able to a 'Ralph Griffith' with new translations of all known Rg, Yajur Vedic verses and establish the correlation and consistency. I have done only dipstick translations till now and have to go a long way.

In this particular series, the attempt is teach ordinary people science, in simplistic way with reference to Puranic stories.

-TBT
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
Mam Renukaji,

LOL. I was tempted to write a humorous post about the various members in this forum and how the rest of the people suffer from them.

On second thoughts, you should write this..LOL.

i will either get banned or invite fierce attacks..so best for you to write..

And I am confident, people will not fight with you...and may take the comments in the right spirit !!!

LOL.
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
Infact I find the latest research in physics behind rediculous..with all the crazy particles and their equally crazy names,

my sympathies to the younger generation who have to study all this...
 

a-TB

Well-known member
You are right in the sense 'retro-fitting' concepts of science to Vedic verses is not the way to prove 'Vedas are science'. But if that 'retro-fitting' is consistent across all the vedic verses and puranic stories, then we can say the 'fittment' is better. There is a lot more correlation and less standard deviation in the fitment.

Though Correlation is not causation, if we are able to prove high degree of correlation and consistency across Vedas and Puranas, it can definitely lead to new learnings.

Though I think that we can find new knowledge and even if new knowledge is proved, due to the method which it is done, it will be seen more 'co-incidental'. So the first step is to prove high degree of correlation and consistency.

Till now my understanding is that there is a good degree of correlation and consistency (for eg. you will find I use Shiva as Energy, Vishnu as Higgs/mass, Brahma/Hiranyagarbha as four dimensional spacetime, Linga as Energy-Momentum Hyperboloid, Aditya as creative/binding energies, Daitya as destructive/Weak force energies, uSa is the dawn of Universe as is Cosmic Microwave Background, brahman is evolution, Soma is strong interaction, Apa is electromagnetic interaction, Madhu is weak interaction, Purusha is Cold Dark matter and matter combined, Prakrti is visible matter which evolves etc etc etc.. etc across all my translations).

But this is not enough.

I should be able to a 'Ralph Griffith' with new translations of all known Rg, Yajur Vedic verses and establish the correlation and consistency. I have done only dipstick translations till now and have to go a long way.

In this particular series, the attempt is teach ordinary people science, in simplistic way with reference to Puranic stories.

-TBT

Mr JK - I think we should not take a discussion thread and turn it into a forum for chit-chat exchanges. You can always open a thread in the chit-chat sections. Hope you dont take this suggestion in a wrong way.

Mr TBT:

One who is not familiar with details of science do not care to read the factoids you have used.
Perhaps you have an admirer like Mr Vaagmi who may read all you write. Not saying this as an insult, only that people who do not have a scientific background tune out the factoids.

No no serious science person who is also familar with Puranas is going to come here and comment on your theories. If such a person existed my guess is that they would find many inconsistencies in your proposals.

I was talking to someone and the person said no one has actually seen an electron. It is just a model and electron and all these particles are also waves. Now with electron as a wave , what happens to your explanation of Siva, Parvathi and Ganesha. I have no clue what it means to be a wave. Do you? If so how are you going to force fit the Ganesha story.

That is why my challenge to you is to predict something. In fact predict a lot of items. If one day many of the predictions come true people will take notice even if they do not believe you now.
 
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thebigthinkg

Active member
Mr JK - I think we should not take a discussion thread and turn it into a forum for chit-chat exchanges. You can always open a thread in the chit-chat sections. Hope you dont take this suggestion in a wrong way.

Mr TBT:

One who is not familiar with details of science do not care to read the factoids you have used.
Perhaps you have an admirer like Mr Vaagmi who may read all you write. Not saying this as an insult, only that people who do not have a scientific background tune out the factoids.

No no serious science person who is also familar with Puranas is going to come here and comment on your theories. If such a person existed my guess is that they would find many inconsistencies in your proposals.

I was talking to someone and the person said no one has actually seen an electron. It is just a model and electron and all these particles are also waves. Now with electron as a wave , what happens to your explanation of Siva, Parvathi and Ganesha. I have no clue what it means to be a wave. Do you? If so how are you going to force fit the Ganesha story.

That is why my challenge to you is to predict something. In fact predict a lot of items. If one day many of the predictions come true people will take notice even if they do not believe you now.

True. I am sure, not just 'predictions', but several new principles or new ideas can be found in Vedic verses. It's a question of time and work. In fact I have some which I have put in my Aditya Hrdayam series of posts (for eg. on quintessence model of Dark energy, nature of Dark matter and its relationship to Higgs field and cosmic inflation from nArayana suktam and purusha suktam).

The reason I put these posts here is that total outsiders of science often throw up questions which helps me to dig up some new dimensions and organize my thoughts in a more simplistic way.

If I really understand something, then I should be able to explain it to a kid. Sometimes the questions here are like from Kids and it helps me rephrase/rewrite my thoughts in a much more simplistic way.

The whole Learning physics from Vedas and Puranas series, which I started writing now, which is an attempt to explain science to kids and layman in a language that they understand, if they are interested to know, came from such interactions.

-TBT
 

a-TB

Well-known member
True. I am sure, not just 'predictions', but several new principles or new ideas can be found in Vedic verses. It's a question of time and work. In fact I have some which I have put in my Aditya Hrdayam series of posts (for eg. on quintessence model of Dark energy, nature of Dark matter and its relationship to Higgs field and cosmic inflation from nArayana suktam and purusha suktam).

The reason I put these posts here is that total outsiders of science often throw up questions which helps me to dig up some new dimensions and organize my thoughts in a more simplistic way.

If I really understand something, then I should be able to explain it to a kid. Sometimes the questions here are like from Kids and it helps me rephrase/rewrite my thoughts in a much more simplistic way.

The whole Learning physics from Vedas and Puranas series, which I started writing now, which is an attempt to explain science to kids and layman in a language that they understand, if they are interested to know, came from such interactions.

-TBT

My question still stands.

Are all the particles you mention also waves? What does it mean to be a wave? How do you explain this using veda or puranas? If electron is not a particle is your explanation of story of Ganesha out the window?
 
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thebigthinkg

Active member
My question still stands.

Are all the particles you mention also waves? What does it mean to be a wave? How do you explain this using veda or puranas? If electron is not a particle is your explanation of story of Ganesha out the window?

Let me answer that.

1. I did not say Ganesha is electron. I wrote Ganesha is 'Work done' (on protons, electrons, atoms, molecules, compounds on all forms of matter) and Skanda is 'heat'. Ganesha is physical movement in a region of space, which is work done and Heat is random oscillatory movement at the same point. This is at a 'Classical' level and has nothing to do with Quantum characteristics of Wave and Particle.

2. But yes, this Quantum and Classical manifestation is what is Rudra and maruts. Rudra is 'vibrations' or 'howling' which are the quantum force-fields. In this force-fields, rudras, Shiva the energy manifests and create various types of particle manifestations. Ma-Rud are not howl, not cry, not vibrate. Maruts are loosely depicted as 'children of Rudras'.

The Universe manifests because in various Rudras (force-fields), Shiva (Energy) enters and creates particle forms. 'Eko hi rudro na dvitaya tasthu' says svetasvara upanishad. There is no two apart from Rudras. There are only quantum force-fields in this universe. All the Universal particles we see at 'classical' level are actually coming from Rudras, the quantum force-fields. That's also science.

Where does this Rudras, the quantum force-fields manifest..? Our Puranas say Rudras appear on Brahma, Hiranyagarbha, which is the four dimensional spacetime. Science also says the same. Our spacetime has rudras, the quantum force-fields. Science says when energy peaks up on them, particles and anti-particles manifest and they get annihilated most times.

There are 11 Rudras in the Puranas. There are eleven quantum force-fields that exists, existed at different points of time in the Universe. They are four force carriers (Strong, weak, EM, Higgs) and three that existed before (Unified Higgs, EWS, EW) and three of particles (Quarks, Electrons, neutrons). They lead to 49 (or sometimes 64) Maruts in Puranas. In science, As we know today there are 48 fermionic particles and 61 including bosonic particles.

-TBT
 
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thebigthinkg

Active member
Let me answer that.

1. I did not say Ganesha is electron. I wrote Ganesha is 'Work done' (on protons, electrons, atoms, molecules, compounds on all forms of matter) and Skanda is 'heat'. Ganesha is physical movement in a region of space, which is work done and Heat is random oscillatory movement at the same point. This is at a 'Classical' level and has nothing to do with Quantum characteristics of Wave and Particle.

2. But yes, this Quantum and Classical manifestation is what is Rudra and maruts. Rudra is 'vibrations' or 'howling' which are the quantum force-fields. In this force-fields, rudras, Shiva the energy manifests and create various types of particle manifestations. Ma-Rud are not howl, not cry, not vibrate. Maruts are loosely depicted as 'children of Rudras'.

The Universe manifests because in various Rudras (force-fields), Shiva (Energy) enters and creates particle forms. 'Eko hi rudro na dvitaya tasthu' says svetasvara upanishad. There is no two apart from Rudras. There are only quantum force-fields in this universe. All the Universal particles we see at 'classical' level are actually coming from Rudras, the quantum force-fields. That's also science.

Where does this Rudras, the quantum force-fields manifest..? Our Puranas say Rudras appear on Brahma, Hiranyagarbha, which is the four dimensional spacetime. Science also says the same. Our spacetime has rudras, the quantum force-fields. Science says when energy peaks up on them, particles and anti-particles manifest and they get annihilated most times.

There are 11 Rudras in the Puranas. There are eleven quantum force-fields that exists, existed at different points of time in the Universe. They are four force carriers (Strong, weak, EM, Higgs) and three that existed before (Unified Higgs, EWS, EW) and three of particles (Quarks, Electrons, neutrons). They lead to 49 (or sometimes 64) Maruts in Puranas. In science, As we know today there are 48 fermionic particles and 61 including bosonic particles.

-TBT

oops.. it should be quarks, electrons and neutrinos..

-TBT
 

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