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J.Krishnamurti

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Iyest

Active member
The very noise of the self prevents its own dissolution. We consult, analyse, pray, exchange explanations; this incessant activity and noise of the self hinders the bliss of the Real. Noise can produce only more noise and in it there is no understanding.

- 1946
 

Mani_Chennai

Active member
The very noise of the self prevents its own dissolution. We consult, analyse, pray, exchange explanations; this incessant activity and noise of the self hinders the bliss of the Real. Noise can produce only more noise and in it there is no understanding.

- 1946
You mean Neet exam and suicide?
 
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Iyest

Active member
Can thought which is incessantly active, come to an end? And if thought does come to an end, will this not be a complete death to the mind? Are we not therefore afraid of thought coming to an end? If thought should come to an end, what would happen? The whole structure which we have built up of ‘myself’ being important, my family, my country, my position, power, prestige - the whole of that would cease, obviously. So, do we really want to have a quiet mind?

- Hamburg, 1956
 
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Iyest

Active member
When a machine is revolving very fast, as a fan with several blades, the separate parts are not visible but appear as one. So the “self”, the “me”, seems to be a unified entity but if its activities can be slowed down then we shall perceive that it is not a unified entity but made up of many separate and contending desires and pursuits. These separate wants and hopes, fears and joys make up the self. The self is a term to cover craving in its different forms. To understand the self there must be an awareness of craving in its multiple aspects. The passive awareness, the choiceless discernment reveals the ways of the self, bringing freedom from bondage. Thus, when the mind is tranquil and free of its own activity and chatter, there is supreme wisdom.

- Ojai, 1946
 
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Iyest

Active member
Question: Is the mind different from the thinker?

Krishnamurti: Now, is the thinker different from his thoughts? Does the thinker exist without thoughts? Is there a thinker apart from thought? Stop thinking, and where is the thinker? Is the thinker of one thought different from the thinker of another thought? Is the thinker separate from his thought, or does thought create the thinker who then identifies himself with thought when he finds it convenient and separates himself when it is not convenient? That is, what is the ‘I’, the thinker? Obviously, the thinker is composed of various thoughts which have become identified as the ‘me’. So the thoughts produce the thinker, not the other way round. If I have no thoughts then there is no thinker.

- Bangalore 1948
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Question: Is the mind different from the thinker?

Krishnamurti: Now, is the thinker different from his thoughts? Does the thinker exist without thoughts? Is there a thinker apart from thought? Stop thinking, and where is the thinker? Is the thinker of one thought different from the thinker of another thought? Is the thinker separate from his thought, or does thought create the thinker who then identifies himself with thought when he finds it convenient and separates himself when it is not convenient? That is, what is the ‘I’, the thinker? Obviously, the thinker is composed of various thoughts which have become identified as the ‘me’. So the thoughts produce the thinker, not the other way round. If I have no thoughts then there is no thinker.

- Bangalore 1948

Its like this I guess.." if there is an undersea earth quake, there is a Tsunami..its the earth quake that produces the Tsunami ...no earth quake no Tsunami"
 

sravna

Well-known member
Thoughts are the effects and the thinker is the cause. The thoughts separate from the thinker as he thinks. Without the thinker there can be no thoughts. Thoughts do not separate when the thinker reaches perfection. In that case his thoughts are in sync with every thinker.

Perfection is perceived by everybody. It happens when all the effects inhere in the cause.
 
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Iyest

Active member
Thoughts are the effects and the thinker is the cause. The thoughts separate from the thinker as he thinks.

The existence of an independent thinker is an assumption which is again another thought. The thinker is a creation of thought.
 

sravna

Well-known member
The reality of thinker is not created by thought. He does not come into existence because of thought. It is the thought that comes into existence because of the thinker. It is just that the cause is understood because of its effects.
 
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OP
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Iyest

Active member
The reality of thinker is not created by thought. He does not come into existence because of thought. It is the thought that comes into existence because of the thinker. It is just that the cause is understood because of its effects.

Theories and ideas are creations of thought. The claim of an independent thinker is also a claim of thought. The thinker only arises together with thought.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Thinker cannot have no thoughts. That is a thinker thinks. Just in the same way a body acts. Irrespective of actions body exists and gives rise to actions just as thinker gives rise to thoughts. Thoughts are the potential of the thinker just as actions are the potential of the body.

Theories and ideas are not creation of thoughts. They are carried by thoughts but produced by the thinker.

If we consider mind as the thinker then we can say that before thoughts are produced they inhere as potential in the mind. As thoughts separate from the mind we are said to think. The mind or the thinker so can be seen as the cause and the thoughts which separate is the effect or created by the mind.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Thinker cannot have no thoughts. That is a thinker thinks. Just in the same way a body acts. Irrespective of actions body exists and gives rise to actions just as thinker gives rise to thoughts. Thoughts are the potential of the thinker just as actions are the potential of the body.

Theories and ideas are not creation of thoughts. They are carried by thoughts but produced by the thinker.

If we consider mind as the thinker then we can say that before thoughts are produced they inhere as potential in the mind. As thoughts separate from the mind we are said to think. The mind or the thinker so can be seen as the cause and the thoughts which separate is the effect or created by the mind.
Well, lets look at it a little less technical..cos thoughts, thinker , what exists and what does not can go on and on and everyone can be right or wrong or a combination of both.

Adi Shankara gave us a big hint when he sang " Bhajo Govindam! Nahi Nahi Rakshatin Dukren Karane"

Dukren Karane is a grammar rule from Ashtadyayi of Panini..from that the root word कृ(kR) comes which means " to do" and we get words like Karoti, kriya etc.

To me it seems that Adi Shankaracharya was hinting " why waste time of technicality and nitty gritty details which only creates endless thought waves..instead just recite the name of God as its only the name of God that will overhaul your system"

So Sravna..the mind has a function.
It is for thinking.
Thinker exists because of thoughts and vice versa.
The Dharma of the mind is to think but we have the option not to become the thought...since the Dharma of the mind is to think..just recite God's name...it would auto regulate the system and the mind would cease to be agitated and would be like a sea sans waves...so where is then the question of " does thought or thinker exists or what gives rise to what"
 

sravna

Well-known member
Renuka,

Agree. I would say mind can be described as a form and by its function. The function of the mind is to produce thoughts. So the thinker is defined not by thoughts only but by its form too.

Also as you said thoughts which are the effects can be still and be one with mind when we achieve perfection. In that case we are omniscient and aware of everything all at once. Thoughts are unmanifest at that point. The thinker changes as just experiencer of mental energy which is actually spiritual energy and he also becomes a spontaneous actor.
 
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OP
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Iyest

Active member
Claims are not facts. Why claim only one thinker, thought can imagine there are 2, 3, and multiple thinkers. And then theorize that the first thinker has the potential to create the second and so on.

The thinker is entirely dependent on thought and has no independent existence. It is a product of thought. When thoughts cease the thinker disappears.

No more from me on this.
 
OP
OP
I

Iyest

Active member
Well, lets look at it a little less technical..cos thoughts, thinker , what exists and what does not can go on and on and everyone can be right or wrong or a combination of both.

Adi Shankara gave us a big hint when he sang " Bhajo Govindam! Nahi Nahi Rakshatin Dukren Karane"

Dukren Karane is a grammar rule from Ashtadyayi of Panini..from that the root word कृ(kR) comes which means " to do" and we get words like Karoti, kriya etc.

To me it seems that Adi Shankaracharya was hinting " why waste time of technicality and nitty gritty details which only creates endless thought waves..instead just recite the name of God as its only the name of God that will overhaul your system"

So Sravna..the mind has a function.
It is for thinking.
Thinker exists because of thoughts and vice versa.
The Dharma of the mind is to think but we have the option not to become the thought...since the Dharma of the mind is to think..just recite God's name...it would auto regulate the system and the mind would cease to be agitated and would be like a sea sans waves...so where is then the question of " does thought or thinker exists or what gives rise to what"

Renuka ji, I don’t think Shankara says that there is an independent thinker who creates thoughts because that would be permanent duality. Krishnamurti, Ramana and the Buddha are similar. Buddha talks of dependent arising where the thinker arises along with thought. There is a similar sloka of Patanjali.

“If one postulates a second mind to perceive the first, then one would have to postulate an infinite number of minds; “

- Patanjali yoga sutra 4-21

I will post more passages and hopefully they will clarify.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Claims are not facts. Why claim only one thinker, thought can imagine there are 2, 3, and multiple thinkers. And then theorize that the first thinker has the potential to create the second and so on.

The thinker is entirely dependent on thought and has no independent existence. It is a product of thought. When thoughts cease the thinker disappears.

No more from me on this.
How does thought originate without the thinker? If it is independent it does not need a thinker.

Shankaras non dualism is with respect to the ultimate reality. He does accept relative reality. In the ultimate reality there are no thoughts just a state of still experience.
 
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OP
OP
I

Iyest

Active member
How does thought originate without the thinker?

That is why it is important to enquire and understand the nature of thought and the thinking process. Instead of postulating the existence of one or more independent thinker(s) and sticking to that belief.


In the ultimate reality there are no thoughts just a state of still experience.

Exactly. When there are no thoughts the thinker also disappears and there is only stillness. If there is an independent thinker who remains permanently then there won’t be stillness.
 

sravna

Well-known member
That is why it is important to enquire and understand the nature of thought and the thinking process. Instead of postulating the existence of one or more independent thinker(s) and sticking to that belief.




Exactly. When there are no thoughts the thinker also disappears and there is only stillness. If there is an independent thinker who remains permanently then there won’t be stillness.
I understand but the issue is more of whether thinker produces the thoughts or thoughts produce the thinker. In the ultimate reality the thinker is fully evolved and that is the reason he just experiences stillness. Thought is not the experiencer. Thinker can be.
 
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