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Is the Community digging its own grave

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Vaagmi

Well-known member
post # 600 by Sangom:

I have never had any pretensions of being a king or cobra or king cobra but I can somewhat correctly (again vvkk!) identify one if spotted even at some distance. I was wary of the venom of one and I wish there are not many more here.

this is what is called "(விஷப்)பாம்பின் கால் (விஷப்)பாம்பறியும்" perhaps. :).
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
Wrong assessment about the potential of the venue + wrong expectation of forming a syndicate for a joint venture + obvious intolerance & impatience to wait to get unanimous interest/support and keep possible efforts on ground on a back burner.

:)

:) :)


.. and nothing to do with nara or sangom ;)
 

Nara

Well-known member
கால பைரவன்;200941 said:
A kingdom is won through war. That was the case throughout the world during those times and this was not unique to varna vyavastha following bharatha-varsha. That was the only way for others to claim Kshatriya status. But the fact that they were able to do so is proof that varna status was not always conferred only/strictly by birth.

It is not that only kshatriya status was gained by groups which came previously under another varna. We have other examples too - like a section of vELALars becoming kArALars, indulging in trade and becoming vELAN chetti or poo vaisyars. Here a group belonging to vELALars became vaNikars. Similarly we have instances of people involved in medical profession (vaidhyas) moving from vaishya varna to Brahmin varna.
KB, I am only familiar with Tamil Nadu and there there are no Vaidya Brahmins. Vellalar becoming Vaika is not a change in Varna. However, I don't think Sangom or I are arguing that change in varna did not happen. The instances you cite do not contradict that varna was and is determined by birth. Change in varna, when it happened, did not happen organically, these were sanctified by Brahmins and other power elite groups for political reasons, to gain and assert status or get pushed down when a group loses power. These are occasional events and when it occurred the entire group moved up or down. In the ordinary course of life varna of a given individual was and is always determined by no other consideration but birth. This is so obvious I don't understand why there is so much consternation about it. This very thread is all about protecting and preserving birth-based Brahminness.

.......... That is if we analyze history dispassionately, something a prejudiced mind cannot do.
Well, KB don't you think this is an unnecessary and pointless swipe? What value did this add to your argument? Anyway, let me assure you, I try to look at things as dispassionately as I can. If you think I have a prejudiced mind, then all I can say is, let it be.

Thank you .....
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Do you think this is a pointless discussion of half facts (masquerading as history), half truths, biases, misinformation about something that happened way back when, is leading us TB's anywhere. What is the point of kicking the dead dog? What is going to be achieved? Let us say Sangomji, Naraji, and to a lesser degree Kji agree or just stop arguing, will it make a Brahmin the CM (Ooh sorry JL), or the king of siam. They are not going to concede, and the opposing team does not have the fire power to shut them up. I reckon the B's make up about 2% of the population, and TB may make 1% of TN population. So this futile discussion should stop.

Vaagmiji, Saragji, Zebraji, kbji, and Raviji let us accept that you too can not win this argument.

So this is worthless discussion and is not going anywhere, why not accept a truce and move on to other topics.
 

sangom

Well-known member
Do you think this is a pointless discussion of half facts (masquerading as history), half truths, biases, misinformation about something that happened way back when, is leading us TB's anywhere. What is the point of kicking the dead dog? What is going to be achieved? Let us say Sangomji, Naraji, and to a lesser degree Kji agree or just stop arguing, will it make a Brahmin the CM (Ooh sorry JL), or the king of siam. They are not going to concede, and the opposing team does not have the fire power to shut them up. I reckon the B's make up about 2% of the population, and TB may make 1% of TN population. So this futile discussion should stop.

Vaagmiji, Saragji, Zebraji, kbji, and Raviji let us accept that you too can not win this argument.

So this is worthless discussion and is not going anywhere, why not accept a truce and move on to other topics.

Dear Shri Prasad,

Actually the arguments put forward by Shri Ravi, Shri Vaagmi etc., will lead the already declining tabra community to a 'TB' community. Further, the language and tone of Shri Vaagmi's posts reveal, additionally, one sample of the exalted brahmin culture which these people are labouring to preserve, by giving a fatwa on tabra girls marrying a NB or other religion man;)

(I only wish Shri Praveen keeps a watch on Shri Vaagmi's posts.)

A fast eroding community (in terms of population, due to emigrations, green cards & foreign citizenship, low reproduction rates per couple and, of late, even higher incidence of infertility among young Tabra couples in the higher income brackets) like ours cannot hope to survive for long and it will be much less possible to preserve any "culture-induced genetic traits" in such a community, even in the medium term itself.

The tabra community is facing such predicaments now and if it has to survive without getting extinct, it has to look forward with a broad outlook and adopt measures which will help sustain and make it flourish. Accepting IC marriages (if not IR marriages too) and, if possible, exhorting those tabra couples who can financially afford to look after 3 children or more, to adopt a minimum 3-kids norm, are all necessary and salutary steps to tide over this situation. Let us also note that other brahmins elsewhere in India (Maharashtrian, Konkanastha, Bengali, Punjabi, etc.), do not seem to be so much exercised about their girls marrying IC or even IR.

The arguments put forward here very animatedly by those who plead for preserving the "tabra culture (whatever that means, because there has not been any clear enumeration thereof so far) are pointless, but it looks as though a few members get some vicarious satisfaction of "having fought the war for tamil brahminism". Your intercession is, therefore, very timely but I doubt very much whether the mujahiddeen-like mindset can be completely shaken off by some of our honourable members.
 
Those who had the physical might and some leadership & organizational skill sometimes emerged as small or petty kings. Taking that small status as a starting point these petty kings went on enlarging the geographical frontiers of their "kingdom" through wars.......

The "king" irrespective of the caste/varna to which he originally belonged (before acquiring his first small kingdom) usually acquired the "kshatriya" status with the patronage of brahmins. I have read that even the Naiks of Madurai thus got a kshatriya lineage from king Mahabali or someone.

The petty chieftains, if they lost in war to bigger kingdoms and were enslaved, they got classified as Shudras. Otherwise, they acquired and retained the status of Kshatriyas. This was what I had always maintained. So as you see it is because of the fact that they were enslaved they got classified as shudras and not the other way around. This enslavement existed in tamilakam before the "invading" Aryan armies has been my point.

Anyways, you guys quote exceptions when it suits you. Otherwise dismiss them as exceptions. About vELaLars I will write separately.
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Vaagmiji, Saragji, Zebraji, kbji, and Raviji &
Sangomji, Naraji, and kunjuji

Can we call it as a draw ans a truce? Please at least on this subject.

Naraji proposed a solution for the the dwindling TB community to preserve their traditions.
Let us practice it.
None of us can do it all. After all the efforts just accept the results.

Karmanye Vadhikaraste, Ma phaleshou kada chana - You have the right to perform your actions,but you are not entitled to the fruits of the actions.Ma Karma Phala Hetur Bhurmatey Sangostva Akarmani – Do not let the fruit be the purpose of your actions, and therefore you won’t be attached to not doing your duty.

How simple and how relevant even today.I think if Bhagavadgeetha is universally renowned as the jewel of India's spiritual wisdom , its because of Karma Yoga.You rarely find spiritual books/Gurus laying emphasis on doing your work.
Thats exactly what Krishna says here.Always do your best without expecting the results and you will be happy.
 

C RAVI

Well-known member


Dear Shri Prasad,

Actually the arguments put forward by Shri Ravi, Shri Vaagmi etc., will lead the already declining tabra community to a 'TB' community. Further, the language and tone of Shri Vaagmi's posts reveal, additionally, one sample of the exalted brahmin culture which these people are labouring to preserve, by giving a fatwa on tabra girls marrying a NB or other religion man;)

(I only wish Shri Praveen keeps a watch on Shri Vaagmi's posts.)

A fast eroding community (in terms of population, due to emigrations, green cards & foreign citizenship, low reproduction rates per couple and, of late, even higher incidence of infertility among young Tabra couples in the higher income brackets) like ours cannot hope to survive for long and it will be much less possible to preserve any "culture-induced genetic traits" in such a community, even in the medium term itself.

The tabra community is facing such predicaments now and if it has to survive without getting extinct, it has to look forward with a broad outlook and adopt measures which will help sustain and make it flourish. Accepting IC marriages (if not IR marriages too) and, if possible, exhorting those tabra couples who can financially afford to look after 3 children or more, to adopt a minimum 3-kids norm, are all necessary and salutary steps to tide over this situation. Let us also note that other brahmins elsewhere in India (Maharashtrian, Konkanastha, Bengali, Punjabi, etc.), do not seem to be so much exercised about their girls marrying IC or even IR.

The arguments put forward here very animatedly by those who plead for preserving the "tabra culture (whatever that means, because there has not been any clear enumeration thereof so far) are pointless, but it looks as though a few members get some vicarious satisfaction of "having fought the war for tamil brahminism". Your intercession is, therefore, very timely but I doubt very much whether the mujahiddeen-like mindset can be completely shaken off by some of our honourable members.


Shri Sangom,

Your self, Shri Nara and the side actor or can say "Oorgai touch" Shri K (Shri K, just to serve Shri Sangom in return with his own choice of words, I am using too, off course just for fun :D, hope you will pardon me..) are taking pride on your stand on this topic and in any topic that revolves around Brahmin Community's social issues BECAUSE you people are so sure about the communities deterioration and are sure that nothing can be done in this regard. As such, you people are boasting about taking a right stand and registering most valid and sensible view points.

I can understand you people's smart choice of taking up a particular stand in the debate.


BUT, myself, Shri Vaagmi, Shri Vgane, Shri KB and many be few others are as well much satisfied (as you have rightly expressed) with our whole hearted concern about the issues of our Brahmin Community and in our attempts to find possible solutions, no matter how successfully we could come up with feasible solutions and how effectively we could possibly implement them.

Unfortunately, you people could find our concern and attempts as same as Mujahideen's strategies and agenda. Probably such of your conclusion help you people to belittle the opposite camp and emerge as Most Human, Most Rational, Most Liberal, Most Broad Minded, Most Pragmatic and Most Sensible Folks who are all in the battle to Establish Humanity and Patriotism among the Brahmin community by expecting them to lead the nation in Caste Eradication.

Probably, you people are encouraging Brahmin girls to sacrifice their precious life and the life of their children by taking chance with IC and IR marriages while dwelling in India for the better cause of INDIA at large. May be, this agenda of your group deserves International Recognition for possible Award.

Myself, Shri Vgane, Shri.Vaagmi, Shri KB and may be few others are happy that we are continuing to stick to our conscious and are voicing our views in favor of Brahmin community with all our optimism, honesty and concern and as you said, we would be happy even to lose a War like our defense soldiers who fight against enemies in War, though they could know that they got weaker in their strength of force and logistics and eventually gonna lose the battle field, rather joining the enemy troops and help them fight against own country - India, in their bargain to save their life as cowards.

 
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prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Shri Sangom,

Your self, Shri Nara and the side actor or can say "Oorgai touch" Shri K (Shri K, just to serve Shri Sangom in return with his own choice of words, I am using too, off course just for fun :D, hope you will pardon me..) are taking pride on your stand on this topic and in any topic that revolves around Brahmin Community's social issues BECAUSE you people are so sure about the communities deterioration and are sure that nothing can be done in this regard. As such, you people are boasting about taking a right stand and registering most valid and sensible view points.

I can understand you people's smart choice of taking up a particular stand in the debate.


BUT, myself, Shri Vaagmi, Shri Vgane, Shri KB and many be few others are as well much satisfied (as you have rightly expressed) with our whole hearted concern about the issues of our Brahmin Community and in our attempts to find possible solutions, no matter how successfully we could come up with feasible solutions and how effectively we could possibly implement them.

Unfortunately, you people could find our concern and attempts as same as Mujahideen's strategies and agenda. Probably such of your conclusion help you people to belittle the opposite camp and emerge as Most Human, Most Rational, Most Liberal, Most Broad Minded, Most Pragmatic and Most Sensible Folks who are all in the battle to Establish Humanity and Patriotism among the Brahmin community by expecting them to lead the nation in Caste Eradication.

Probably, you people are encouraging Brahmin girls to sacrifice their precious life and the life of their children by taking chance with IC and IR marriages while dwelling in India for the better cause of INDIA at large. May be, this agenda of your group deserves International Recognition for possible Award.

Myself, Shri Vgane, Shri.Vaagmi, Shri KB and may be few others are happy that we are continuing to stick to our conscious and are voicing our views in favor of Brahmin community with all our optimism, honesty and concern and as you said, we would be happy even to lose a War like our defense soldiers who fight against enemies in War, though they could know that they got weaker in their strength of force and logistics and eventually gonna lose the battle field, rather joining the enemy troops and help them fight against own country - India, in their bargain to save their life as cowards.


Ravi you know what you are.
If I call you that name I will be banned, so I am not going to call you that. In addition to being young you are ..........

I called for a truce not a surrender, but then again you are not capable of understanding that.
 

zebra16

Well-known member
Do you think this is a pointless discussion of half facts (masquerading as history), half truths, biases, misinformation about something that happened way back when, is leading us TB's anywhere. What is the point of kicking the dead dog? What is going to be achieved? Let us say Sangomji, Naraji, and to a lesser degree Kji agree or just stop arguing, will it make a Brahmin the CM (Ooh sorry JL), or the king of siam. They are not going to concede, and the opposing team does not have the fire power to shut them up. I reckon the B's make up about 2% of the population, and TB may make 1% of TN population. So this futile discussion should stop.

Vaagmiji, Saragji, Zebraji, kbji, and Raviji let us accept that you too can not win this argument.

So this is worthless discussion and is not going anywhere, why not accept a truce and move on to other topics.

Sri Prasadji,

I have written about 10 posts in this thread and almost 8 of them were addressed to Sri Nara and there was absolutely no acrimony in any of them. All the posts were tangential and not much connected with the topic on hand, I admit.

I have never participated in any of IC/IR threads since my joining because i know that ultimately we have to accede to the desire of our child/children and in fact in one of the posts to Sri Nara I had mentioned this. I am reminded of the old tamil song "pettavan maname pittamma, piLLayin maname kallamma"

Yes let us move on to the other topics by all means. Actually my entry into this thread was a sort of obituary after this thread almost died down somewhere in the last week of July, but this thread suddenly developed a life of its own.

Thank you for the conciliatory efforts.

Regards
 

Nara

Well-known member
I submit it is a mistake to think of IC/IR marriages as the sole threat against preserving "Brahmin" culture. IMO, an equal threat, if not a greater one, is the wholesale abandonment the the "culture" by the youngsters. Between my wife's side and my side of the family we have 10 in the next generation, 7 of them boys and not a single one of them can do even achamanam without assistance. Except for the two oldest boys, who have a typical TB life in the U.S. -- meaning earn, eat, watch TV, sleep and think they are Brahmins -- the rest of them are very progressive in their views and practice. Of the three girls, one is IR, one is IC and the third is still unmarried -- she is a liberated woman and if she marries a TB it will probably because he has none of the TB characteristics.

Interestingly, among my siblings and my wife's siblings, the one who is least religious is the one who is most insistent on his sons marrying within caste and he is finding it difficult to find a girl for his first son -- he has been looking for at least two years now. The boy is earning hand over fist in the U.S. I tell him to give a time limit to his parents and if they can't find a girl for him he should go and get one he likes on his own. Looks like he is inclined to take my advice.

If these trends continue among all castes -- I know this is overly optimistic given the vengeful display of caste anger in many places in Tamil Nadu -- the fate that awaits caste thinking can perhaps be stated by paraphrasing Mahakavi a little, மெல்ல ஜாதி இனி சாகும். If the Brahmins can manage to achieve this they will lead the way for the rest of them.
 

Nara

Well-known member
...I have written about 10 posts in this thread and almost 8 of them were addressed to Sri Nara and there was absolutely no acrimony in any of them.
I actually would like to tout this a little bit narayan, I appreciate our conversations because of the civil tone in which we have engaged each other and I am proud of it. If we can remain civil while maintaining quite intensely different positions on many subjects, why not the rest of them, from both sides?

regards ....
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
re #610, #611, #612, #613

i am touched, by both ravi, prasad, nara and zebra and KB. true. and above all by sangom :)

we are cyber acquaintances, and i dread if we should meet any one of us, person to person. so much to each other, that we would not dream of doing even to our closest friends. i think.

i almost fell laughing out of my chair reading ravi/prasad notes. that is good. because it is good to read those notes, in the spirit of jest.

parallelwise, i have been tracking the cheran episode. it is something that some or many of us are familiar, though not on first person basis, definitely on 3rd. the first such incident happened when in my teens, when a cute religious (never seen her without viboothi) brahmin girl, and sister of a good friend of mine, eloped with a xtian guy who was renting a room next house.

the parents offered to marry them hindu wise, but he wanted a xtian church wedding and the girl went along with it. the family soon moved out of the neighbourhood, unable to stand, the query the mock the shame the guilt and above all, the attention. my heart bled. it could have happened to any of us, at that time, ie 60s madras.

even then, i was open. i still remembered my mom, saying how could she be quiet if my sibling landed up at home with a nair or ezhava. she could not even verbalize a xtian or muslim. that is how much insular and complete they are. some of us, and i have realized that each one has to face their own karma.

the most liberal of us, face challenges, which are beyond the borders that we have chalked, and proud that these are the farthest of our tolerance. only to be proved, time and yet again, for each line we draw, our children move a step beyond. such is life.

look at cheran. in a straitjacketed caste bound culture, he is a liberal. he brought up his daughers such. the older one could handle such an upbringing and manage it within the society she lives. the younger one, fell prey to a group of scoundrels. yes. it is a sleazy family, and she fell hook line and sinker. it could have happened to any of us, for it is only the foolish and the ignorant father, who will say, 'my daughter will not do this'. every father who has made this statement, has had to eat his hat. that i know.

film-industry-stands-for-cheran-

the world is far more complex than we can understand here in this forum, and suggest solutions in a few lines. there ARE folks in tamil nadu who hate us for just being born us. let us not be complacent about the pure evil that exists. while me and my progeny are out of harm, let us keep a close eye on those who are still in tamil nadu and do what we can, that they come to no harm.

concluding, i have always felt, the best form of defence is offence. what nara/sangom/self, have been trying to suggest, is something akin to such. atleast that is my belief. if you cant beat them, instead of joining them, enable them to join you. why not? how many of us know 4 generations before us with any levels of intimacy?

thank you.

ps..in a short span of a few weeks, more than 10,00o views!! jolly good, i would say !!
 
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Dear Prasad,

You may be correct that nothing useful might come out of these discussions on history. It is just that when one often sees selective analysis or twisting of history to demonize our community, it is tough not to respond. It is hard to believe this is being done for the benefit of our community.

I have said this before. I am mostly interested in current affairs only. My worries are just that of common-man brahmin and are of secular issues - corruption, communal discrimination etc. Therefore, I have no problem moving on. However, I have noticed that there is not much interest in this forum to discuss these issues. As you rightly pointed out, some of the members here are comfortably settled abroad and are oblivious to the problems faced by Brahmins in India. That could be one of the reasons. Even if and when these are discussed, the discussions veer down the same path - the blame goes from religion to caste to brahminism to Brahmin. So the truce you have brokered will not last long, unless of course some of us completely shut shop, which could happen in my case at least...
 

sarang

Well-known member
Brahmins have always been a minority community, were respected by other 80%, survived countless onslaughts of all forms by invaders and karungalis. Survival by shifting en mass to a different locality, lying low till the situation improved, but holding on to their faith and practicing it was the general norm. They have adapted to the changing times and opportunities and will continue to do so. What is surprising or rather annoying is the chorus of some - we are not practising it, we are humanists, our scriptures are full of contradiction and untruth, our children are out of brahminical culture even without our prompting, those who follow are hypocrites, they live in the past and are unscientific, - the list is too long. Why a group B which breaks away from A is bent on criticising group A instead of praising its own merits or perceived attributes.

Brahmins and the subset of tambrams can live brahmana way of life in mental and physical planes doing many of the prescribed samskaras. Many have no difficulty managing both a traditional vaidic and three piece suit lifestyles. There is always a break or dilution during war, natural disaster, social upheavals, but old practices are not wiped out if there is a committed and dedicated group to hold on. For today's brahmin youngsters brought up in a liberal, irrelevant, liberal(!) households, only a spark - meeting a guru, teacher, upanyasam, bhajan, video or any trigger - is needed to kindle interest and lead to gradual acceptance and practice of what his grandparents and ancestors did. Many US living brahmin families have seen the merits of traditional values and have adapted with zeal and devotion.

Caution is necessary, but not despair.
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
Post #606 by Sangom:

Actually the arguments put forward by Shri Ravi, Shri Vaagmi etc., will lead the already declining tabra community to a 'TB' community. Further, the language and tone of Shri Vaagmi's posts reveal, additionally, one sample of the exalted brahmin culture which these people are labouring to preserve, by giving a fatwa on tabra girls marrying a NB or other religion man

If our arguments will lead the community to a TB status you and your friends' arguments will lead to its complete extinction. Look Mr. Sangom, I hit when you hit, I offer a bouquet when you are nice. It is as simple as that. When you and your friend's think that your surreptitious attempts to come up with poison in the form liberal hypocritical advice, I will certainly come here to present the correct view to balance it. If there by I am denying you the satisfaction of success in your nefarious efforts, I can not help it. It is for the members here to decide what to take and what to reject. It is no coincidence that all your comrades in arm are people who have settled abroad. If their views about the community here is far removed from reality because of distance and influence of an alien culture your views are clouded by your age and isolation.

I only wish Shri Praveen keeps a watch on Shri Vaagmi's posts

Sangom, this is the problem with you. You think you are the repository of all wisdom on earth. When you come across a counter point intolerance sets in as a delirium in you. You want the counter point not to be answered but destroyed. Praveen may not need your advice in this regard and may politely return the advice you have tendered because he has one too many already.

A fast eroding community (in terms of population, due to emigrations, [COLOR=#DA7911 !important]green cards[/COLOR] & foreign citizenship, low reproduction rates per couple and, of late, even higher incidence of infertility among young Tabra couples in the higher income brackets) like ours cannot hope to survive for long and it will be much less possible to preserve any "culture-induced genetic traits" in such a community, even in the medium term itself.
The tabra community is facing such predicaments now and if it has to survive without getting extinct, it has to look forward with a broad outlook and adopt measures which will help sustain and make it flourish. Accepting IC marriages (if not IR marriages too) and, if possible, exhorting those tabra couples who can financially afford to look after 3 children or more, to adopt a minimum 3-kids norm, are all necessary and salutary steps to tide over this situation. Let us also note that other brahmins elsewhere in India (Maharashtrian, Konkanastha, Bengali, Punjabi, etc.), do not seem to be so much exercised about their girls marrying IC or even IR.

If you had presented these ideas without prefacing it with the earlier paragraph of vitriol and the last para again of blah blah your views would have received much better reception for discussion and a conversation would have resulted. But alas. That was not to be and your ego got the better of you.

The arguments put forward here very animatedly by those who plead for preserving the "tabra culture (whatever that means, because there has not been any clear enumeration thereof so far) are pointless, but it looks as though a few members get some vicarious satisfaction of "having fought the war for tamil brahminism". Your intercession is, therefore, very timely but I doubt very much whether the mujahiddeen-like mindset can be completely shaken off by some of our honourable members
.

This is the epilogue to your soliloquy on brahminist terrorism and mujahideen activity in this forum. If someone makes oneself a laughing stock adamantly what can we do? Best wishes.

I will come here again and again and again as long as the community is dished out bad treatment and liberal suicidal advices. I have allocated time for this.
 
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