Is the Community digging its own grave

[vgane]

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While no one can predict the future, based on current trends, I tend to agree with OP re the conclusions, though not the angst.

Many of us have many many reasons, why we have discarded many of the handmedown rituals or values, and each has his or her own reasons. I can list a few here, which I see as relevant to me. Some may have the same reasons, and some may have others.

- Exclusively casteist and I don’t mean it in a negative way. I would like to practice a version of Hinduism, which is universal practice to all our brethren. We can have plurality of practices, but not exclusivity.
- Irrelevance of many rituals
- Cumbersomeness of rituals
- Loneliness of rituals; prefer to attend group bhajans or discourses or group prayers regularly than sit alone at home
- Acute sense of discomfort with certain texts like purusha shukta, which appears, to me atleast, put Brahmins as ‘superior’; unable to accept that
- Superstitious adherence to horoscope and such, inspite of a high failure rate

Organized education of our values for Hindus as a whole including classes for the children at various ages and levels, i think, is one good way to build a sold foundation of our faith. it is something that we can learn from abrahamic religions. again, this too, is a personal opinion.

I have discarded only stuff that I cannot accept from a moral viewpoint mostly. Stuff I like are our bhajans, temples, my palghat cuisine, and I would imagine, even a century from now, all of these would exist, though the future of palghat cuisine may be questioned, considered the far and wide diaspora, and the internationalization of food habits (for even vegetarians).

The very ‘values’ that some people regret passing, including inter caste marriages, I welcome. I would also welcome new blood into our community, and our willingness to accept IR/IC marriages, and educate our children, and encourage them, to bring up their progeny in the best of our Hindu faith, sans the narrowness of casteism. Since we don’t do this, the children seek asylum in other faiths, which I think is a shame.

Caste, while playing a deciding role in India, is apparently a loose fitting cloth, cast away without any effort, for the 2nd generation Indian Canadians. All of tambram families that I know, barring 4 or 5, their children have married outside of caste. The parents who might have reservations in india, appear to have no such qualms here. If caste was all that important, they would have behaved differently I think. No?

Maybe its time, that we as a community took the lead, and have arranged inter caste marriages. We have nothing to lose. And lots to gain, I think.

Sir,

You have given up as you are unable to tackle it as a PIO in foreign shores...Do we ask the TamBrahms in India to give up and face this scourge lying down...The fight is not you Vs me..We require 2 hands to clap..Our children are equally responsible for this

We need to face this and institute controls or let the community be allowed to perish in the name of IC/IR

You have said that we should arrange IC....It is like being out of the frying pan into the fire

I don't think Tam Brahms are ready for it..

Why is this problem only in Tamil Nadu?

In the North Brahmins are not facing this problem...IC is happening (few & far) in North but it is less compared to here

I think the elders should get together to resolve this..This should include the Acharyas also

 

[Nara]

...Ironically you people talk about gender equality in this forum with all your fair sense and feel proud of such kind of Pudhumai Penns. LOL!!

Ravi, I would feel exactly the same way even if your "komanam" tormentors have been men instead of women.

I don't understand why you think the answer to what you see as objectionable is to retaliate in the same way. I understand you are upset your post #2 was moderated, but this happens to all of us one time or another, women members included. I feel there is no cause to reopen a closed issue, but if you think it is appropriate, so be it.

BTW, I have a feeling Sangom is playing with you with his suggestion to take on female sounding moniker, because I don't think he believes in such nonsense as there are enough among those who argue for gender equality who will "support even feminine-sounding monikers." But then, who knows, I am known for getting these kind of things wrong.

best wishes dear Ravi

 

[sravna]

I am coming across this lament frequently in this forum. If only people do not stop with stating the problem how nice and useful will it be. Let us take the IC marriages first. We will go to IR marriages later. If we can analyse what exactly is wrong with these marriages, the logical next step will be to decide whether these marriages are ok or not for the community. If they are not ok then what do we do? How do we prevent them from happening. They do happen is the given situation. How do we get over this is the logical action that would be called for. If our discussion is going to throw up a view acceptable to majority and if it is going to be that the IC marriages are perfectly ok and are desirable (as Mr.Kunjuppu appears to be arguing here)then how to encourage them will have to be discussed. Logically we will also have to discuss how to prevent marrying within the community so that the glorious IC marriages become the rule(and not the exception that they are now)for the brahmin community. I would request members to present what is right and what is wrong with IC marriages first so that the issue can be analysed thoroughly. Any takers?

Let me start with the disclaimer that I am not being discriminatory against any group with my following argument.

Our ancient people did a wonderful job in identifying that the extent of spiritual progress may vary among people. They postulated that marrying should happen between a man and a woman who are at the same level of spiritual progress, but being a marriage between a man and a woman they are supposed to complement each other and that is how the marriage helps them in their spiritual journey. Marrying across levels should not happen because you should consummate the progress at the lower level first.

The above I think is the basis for marriages being advocated only within the groups

Please note spiritual progress may not imply either superiority or inferiority of one human over the other and there are plentiful people who do not care for spirituality.

The above is only my argument against IC marriages based on my understanding of the scriptures.

 

[Nara]

.....
We need to face this and institute controls or let the community be allowed to perish in the name of IC/IR

[snip]

I think the elders should get together to resolve this..This should include the Acharyas also

Among the reasons for this "scourge" are (i) city life in which young girls and boys of different castes are in close proximity, (ii) modern education that encourages children to question the old traditional customs, (iii) educating girls encourages them to be independent and bold, and (iv) TV and cinema are almost exclusively about girl meeting boy, falling in love and marrying.

I think there is only one solution for reversing this "scourge" of increasing IC/IR marriages. The way to avoid IC/IR marriage is to move back to the native village, send boys to Veda Patashala, keep girls at home and never let them go out alone, no TV at home, no cinema, etc.

I know, all this is hard but if there is a strong will to solve this "scourge" then one must bite the bullet and get it done.

But, if you think educating boys and girls is a good thing, if you think bringing up girls like Mahakavi Bharathi sang about is of value, if you think modern education that encourages our children to think critically for themselves and analyze the meaning of life for themselves is important, and, most importantly, if you think loving your children is more important than some fantasy of caste purity, then, learn to not only accept the inevitable, but rejoice in it. If Shri Sangom is right, the children of this "scourge" will be taught all the Brahmnical culture and "values" afterall.

Thanks ...

 

[vgane]

Among the reasons for this "scourge" are (i) city life in which young girls and boys of different castes are in close proximity, (ii) modern education that encourages children to question the old traditional customs, (iii) educating girls encourages them to be independent and bold, and (iv) TV and cinema are almost exclusively about girl meeting boy, falling in love and marrying.

I think there is only one solution for reversing this "scourge" of increasing IC/IR marriages. The way to avoid IC/IR marriage is to move back to the native village, send boys to Veda Patashala, keep girls at home and never let them go out alone, no TV at home, no cinema, etc.

I know, all this is hard but if there is a strong will to solve this "scourge" then one must bite the bullet and get it done.

But, if you think educating boys and girls is a good thing, if you think bringing up girls like Mahakavi Bharathi sang about is of value, if you think modern education that encourages our children to think critically for themselves and analyze the meaning of life for themselves is important, and, most importantly, if you think loving your children is more important than some fantasy of caste purity, then, learn to not only accept the inevitable, but rejoice in it. If Shri Sangom is right, the children of this "scourge" will be taught all the Brahmnical culture and "values" afterall.

Thanks ...

With all the given constraints how do we solve the problem...It does not mean going back to the roots

Let Brahmins come together and say that we will not send our kids to any tom dick and harry school...Let us certify the schools where Brahmin values will be appreciated..

Let us educate the girls & provide modern education, but at the same time let us inculcate moral education too

Any why not a pledge that we administer to our kids to keep them on the right path?

Also we are not talking of caste purity..I want our community to live its life with dignity and not be hounded by pseudo secularists in the garb of IC & IR

Will you look with glee that your community is getting ethnically cleansed by this process?

 

[prasad1]

Dear Shri Sravna,

I think it is obviously erroneous to delude ourselves thinking that "we" (you need not include me or people like myself under this we, if you so like it.) are the "last bastions of Indian culture" nor even as the last bastions of brahmin culture. Indian culture will continue to exist as long as Indians exist; as for brahminism, as I wrote in my post # 5 above, we tabras do not have any similarity with our forefathers of 7 or 8 generations or more in terms of brahmin habits, culture, ethos etc.; it is continuously changing with time.

Bravo, a very practical observation.

 

[sangom]

. . .
BTW, I have a feeling Sangom is playing with you with his suggestion to take on female sounding moniker, because I don't think he believes in such nonsense as there are enough among those who argue for gender equality who will "support even feminine-sounding monikers." But then, who knows, I am known for getting these kind of things wrong.

best wishes dear Ravi

Dear Shri Nara,

Let me say that I am not at all clever enough to play with another member; what best I can do is to write whatever I really feel, but then, my language is wanting in many cases and that creates confusion.

In the above case, whatever I wrote was truly reflecting my feeling or observations or both. Recently it happened in Kerala that a minister complained that his wife had attacked him physically and also produced some evidence also; promptly the next day, the minister's wife lodged a written complaint with the police stating that the minister had physically attacked her and she also produced evidence. The police had to register a non-bailable offence against the minister and he had to resign his minister's post, and thanks to some mediators the wife withdrew the complaint after getting properties worth more than two crores in her name and the children's name jointly.

In a similar fashion in this forum all sorts of low level posts are allowed unopposed but posts by Ravi gets edited. What I would advise Ravi is to understand that in this world some are always more equal. For more peace of mind he may listen to the old song by Chandrababu, பொறந்தாலும் ஆம்பளையா பொறக்கக் கூடாது அய்யா பொறந்து விட்டா பொம்பளைய நெனைக்கக் கூடாது ...

 

[prasad1]

Let me start with the disclaimer that I am not being discriminatory against any group with my following argument.

Our ancient people did a wonderful job in identifying that the extent of spiritual progress may vary among people. They postulated that marrying should happen between a man and a woman who are at the same level of spiritual progress, but being a marriage between a man and a woman they are supposed to complement each other and that is how the marriage helps them in their spiritual journey. Marrying across levels should not happen because you should consummate the progress at the lower level first.

The above I think is the basis for marriages being advocated only within the groups

Please note spiritual progress may not imply either superiority or inferiority of one human over the other and there are plentiful people who do not care for spirituality.

The above is only my argument against IC marriages based on my understanding of the scriptures.

Who's reading of what scriptures?
Can you name a scripture in its original form that is followed to the letter today?
Culture changes all the time. You have decided to fix a period, that is personal to you and you alone. I bet even your personal values have changed over period of time. So lamenting the loss of that moment is fruitless. It is like catching the floating soap bubbles, They look dazzling at that time but are impermanent.

 

[prasad1]

Dear Shri Nara,

Let me say that I am not at all clever enough to play with another member; what best I can do is to write whatever I really feel, but then, my language is wanting in many cases and that creates confusion.

In the above case, whatever I wrote was truly reflecting my feeling or observations or both. Recently it happened in Kerala that a minister complained that his wife had attacked him physically and also produced some evidence also; promptly the next day, the minister's wife lodged a written complaint with the police stating that the minister had physically attacked her and she also produced evidence. The police had to register a non-bailable offence against the minister and he had to resign his minister's post, and thanks to some mediators the wife withdrew the complaint after getting properties worth more than two crores in her name and the children's name jointly.

In a similar fashion in this forum all sorts of low level posts are allowed unopposed but posts by Ravi gets edited. What I would advise Ravi is to understand that in this world some are always more equal. For more peace of mind he may listen to the old song by Chandrababu, பொறந்தாலும் ஆம்பளையா பொறக்கக் கூடாது அய்யா பொறந்து விட்டா பொம்பளைய நெனைக்கக் கூடாது ...

Do you really mean it? Just because you share his hatred of NRI from west, you do not have to prop him up. The moderation is arbitrary at best, and cuts both ways. I too feel that comments from some member is tolerated, sometimes.

 

[sangom]

Among the reasons for this "scourge" are (i) city life in which young girls and boys of different castes are in close proximity, (ii) modern education that encourages children to question the old traditional customs, (iii) educating girls encourages them to be independent and bold, and (iv) TV and cinema are almost exclusively about girl meeting boy, falling in love and marrying.

I think there is only one solution for reversing this "scourge" of increasing IC/IR marriages. The way to avoid IC/IR marriage is to move back to the native village, send boys to Veda Patashala, keep girls at home and never let them go out alone, no TV at home, no cinema, etc.

I know, all this is hard but if there is a strong will to solve this "scourge" then one must bite the bullet and get it done.

But, if you think educating boys and girls is a good thing, if you think bringing up girls like Mahakavi Bharathi sang about is of value, if you think modern education that encourages our children to think critically for themselves and analyze the meaning of life for themselves is important, and, most importantly, if you think loving your children is more important than some fantasy of caste purity, then, learn to not only accept the inevitable, but rejoice in it. If Shri Sangom is right, the children of this "scourge" will be taught all the Brahmnical culture and "values" afterall.

Thanks ...

I did not say that IC/IR marriages are a "scourge"; that is, again, from your own stock!

But the reality of the situation seems to me to be that of late, the latent sexuality in our Indian people (across all the divides like age-group, gender, geography, etc.) has, due to many factors, increased phenomenally and the young girls are more oriented towards the physical aspects of married life. Most tabra boys do fall way behind in this respect and this sort of drives our young girls to fall for non-tabra males who conform more to the ideal specimen of their dreams possibly.

It is not easy to put a stop to this social trend. Either we meekly accept the changes or ostracize such boys and girls from brahmin society. But in most households I find that the parents are unable to take the extreme step due to many reasons. Hence, even if this IC/IR marriages are a scourge, as correctly analyzed by Shri Nara, we have to suffer these just like we did the plague, small-pox etc.

But, as explained in post # 5, there is a mysterious self-esteem in trying to ensure, AFAP, that the progeny of all such tabra IC marriages are put up again on the high brahmin pedestal so that the "glory of brahminism" is not in any danger.

Note: As a brahmin, I prefer to use the Tahoma font because it has "homa" in it

 

[sangom]

Do you really mean it? Just because you share his hatred of NRI from west, you do not have to prop him up. The moderation is arbitrary at best, and cuts both ways. I too feel that comments from some member is tolerated, sometimes.

Somehow you have got an impression that I am against NRIs from the west. I am against India aping the west and I am also against opinionated NRIs. But I have some very good friends from among the NRIs from the west (US in particular) like Shri Nara, Palindrome, Kunjuppu etc.

Ravi and myself differ on many topics/issues (as already seen in some topics here) but I feel that he is a sincere person, not a self-imposing person with a "big-brother" facade.

 

[kunjuppu]

sangom,

i think nara was using the term 'scourge' with utmost facetiousness in his mind. knowing him, i would be very surprised, if it is anything but that ie a sly attempt at humour in discussing this, after all, a de facto topic.

 

[Nara]

...In a similar fashion in this forum all sorts of low level posts are allowed unopposed but posts by Ravi gets edited.

Dear Shri Sangom, you have me scratching my head generously endowed on the outside (eat your heart out dear K). I was trying to encourage Ravi to move on and you are telling him to take on a female sounding name because there are a lot of people in the forum who instinctively support the female sex in a kind of drooling fashion -- I know you will say all this is my mind making stuff up, but your words are clear enough. Let us try to make it better for Ravi, not instigate further disharmony for no valid purpose whatever.

I did not say that IC/IR marriages are a "scourge"; that is, again, from your own stock!

Dear Sangom, please take a look at my post, I was responding to vgane's post #23 in which he states "Do we ask the TamBrahms in India to give up and face this scourge lying down." Again, scratch, scratch -- more of this I will have to join dear K.

What surprises me is for vgane -- I hate to isolate just vgane, the truth is a lot of Brahmins share his anguish -- this IC/IR is nothing short of a catastrophe, a scourge that must be eliminated, yet they are unwilling to undertake the measures I outlined that will surely fix the problem, no more IC/IR scourge. Instead, they only want to discuss half measures that have as much chance of success as the chance of even one concerned Brahmin moving to his village and following my suggestions.

best regards ....

 

[jaisiyaraam]

Namaste Sangomji,

Note: As a brahmin, I prefer to use the Tahoma font because it has "homa" in it

I could not stop laughing, I almost spilled hot tea on me, cracking at your comment !!!


Thanks,
Jai SiyaRaam

 

[kunjuppu]

With all the given constraints how do we solve the problem...It does not mean going back to the roots

sorry to disappoint you mate, but i think, a good number of us tambrams do not care to heed to the rules of 100 years or before any more. we may not be a majority, but are a significant number, to get the traditionalists concerned. personally i welcome this change, and do not see it as a problem. but yes, a change, to be MANAGED on our terms and for the continuation of our what i consider, decent and acceptable traditions. not some inane rituals and caste pride. there is enough of that all over india.

Let Brahmins come together and say that we will not send our kids to any tom dick and harry school...Let us certify the schools where Brahmin values will be appreciated..

again, i wish to say, that we are the ones who broke ranks and attended convent schools. later we find them wanting, and we started our own, wherever possible, to suit our cultural needs. PSBB, Chettinad, Vidya Mandir are such schools. These schools are run, what i would say on hindu morals, but i dont think they can or should teach the separation of castes.

Let us educate the girls & provide modern education, but at the same time let us inculcate moral education too

what moral education you want? dont marry outside of the castes? if the parents have no objection, who are strangers, albeit of the same caste to say. it is like the recent divya ilavarasan stuff, where politics and the public got into the picture, and made a mess of the whole thing.

Any why not a pledge that we administer to our kids to keep them on the right path?

i agree. except to me, the right path, is to follow respect hindu values regardless of caste. otherwise, tomorrow our numbers will be counted within 4 or 5 digits, which is the fear of the OP

Also we are not talking of caste purity..I want our community to live its life with dignity and not be hounded by pseudo secularists in the garb of IC & IR

i agree with you. as a devout spiritual hindu, nothing disgusts me more than the pseudo secularists. pure secularists have respect for religions. like nehru or lohia. or even rajaji. though i dont understand what living with its life and dignity has to do with 'hounding'. also, along the same lines, i am leery of rss or bajrang dal or some elements of bjp because, india is a multi ethnic multi religiou multi linguistic multi country. if we irreparably antagonize targeted groups, it will explode to violence, and ultimate victims may be you or your children (if they still live in india).

Will you look with glee that your community is getting ethnically cleansed by this process?

i think it is ethically cleansed enough. any more ethical cleansing, and others would need sunglasses, to protect the glare emanating from such pure skins.

to sum up, between a marrying couple, there needs to be a compatibility on many fronts - economic, social interests, hobbies, pastimes, money sense, affection, regard, food, etc...and i think, same caste is not a prerequisite to a good marriage. having all the others, same caste helps.

the biggest hurdles are the society and relatives. if we leave the couple alone, i think, there is a good chance that they can make a marriage work, provided it is well thought out BEFORE the event.

 

[C RAVI]

Do you really mean it? Just because you share his hatred of NRI from west, you do not have to prop him up. The moderation is arbitrary at best, and cuts both ways. I too feel that comments from some member is tolerated, sometimes.

How do you conclude that I hate NRI from West in general and as members in this Forum??

Can we say, going by 1000s of post in this forum, that NRI's here in this forum hate Brahmins in India/Tamil Nadu and hate the members who voice in favor of Brahmins?

I for one would consider strong oppositions from each side on the message we post here in a debate and not a personal hatred on each other.

But, unfortunately you and probably few others can view things differently. That is why you conclude that I hate NRI's of this Forum.

As Shri Sangom said, I too have very good friendship with couple of NRI's in western world including my cousins. Off course, they have lots of concern for Brahmins in India and are contributing a lot for the Brahmins exclusively as a basic instinct of serving the own clan with which one still wants to associate and feel proud of it.

 

[vgane]

sorry to disappoint you mate, but i think, a good number of us tambrams do not care to heed to the rules of 100 years or before any more. we may not be a majority, but are a significant number, to get the traditionalists concerned. personally i welcome this change, and do not see it as a problem. but yes, a change, to be MANAGED on our terms and for the continuation of our what i consider, decent and acceptable traditions. not some inane rituals and caste pride. there is enough of that all over india.

There is hardly any pride left with the Tambrahm...He has given up his traditional dress to suit the modern life...He no more sports the traditional symbols of his religion..He has given up his Brahminical Tamil to live with the rest of the populace...He has compromised his education & employment by making peace with reservation...Now when you are trying to poison him with IC & IR what is left of him...An emaciated soul crying Easwara..What should I do...And you are repeating again & again IC is the salvation ...In Tamil there is a slogan வெந்த புண்ணில் வேல் பாய்ச்சுவது.. (Frying pan to the fire equivalent)

again, i wish to say, that we are the ones who broke ranks and attended convent schools. later we find them wanting, and we started our own, wherever possible, to suit our cultural needs. PSBB, Chettinad, Vidya Mandir are such schools. These schools are run, what i would say on hindu morals, but i dont think they can or should teach the separation of castes.

There needs to be more of that in Higher Education too...None of the above mentioned are in higher education...We just have one Sastra University where traditional values are appreciated

what moral education you want? dont marry outside of the castes? if the parents have no objection, who are strangers, albeit of the same caste to say. it is like the recent divya ilavarasan stuff, where politics and the public got into the picture, and made a mess of the whole thing.

Moral education does not mean pride in caste...It means character building, control of mind, teaching yoga & meditation...Why are you bringing caste into this?


i agree. except to me, the right path, is to follow respect hindu values regardless of caste. otherwise, tomorrow our numbers will be counted within 4 or 5 digits, which is the fear of the OP

Why are you unnecessarily bringing caste into the debate...I never said anything superior about Brahmins


i agree with you. as a devout spiritual hindu, nothing disgusts me more than the pseudo secularists. pure secularists have respect for religions. like nehru or lohia. or even rajaji. though i dont understand what living with its life and dignity has to do with 'hounding'. also, along the same lines, i am leery of rss or bajrang dal or some elements of bjp because, india is a multi ethnic multi religiou multi linguistic multi country. if we irreparably antagonize targeted groups, it will explode to violence, and ultimate victims may be you or your children (if they still live in india).

Surprisingly you are bringing the RSS into this with some ulterior motive...

i think it is ethically cleansed enough. any more ethical cleansing, and others would need sunglasses, to protect the glare emanating from such pure skins.

I said ethnically cleansed (not ethically cleansed) which is what EVR wanted which our children are unwittingly following
to sum up, between a marrying couple, there needs to be a compatibility on many fronts - economic, social interests, hobbies, pastimes, money sense, affection, regard, food, etc...and i think, same caste is not a prerequisite to a good marriage. having all the others, same caste helps.

Caste has been the foundation of India & Indianness...Why are you breaking caste of only Brahmins with gay abandon..Can you try to mess with any other caste...No...Because Brahmins are the soft targets as they do not retaliate...You want to break the foundation and say that is good for the country...Alas you will also be hounded as you too are part of the same foundation (I did not mean you to be kunjuppu but of your ilk)

the biggest hurdles are the society and relatives. if we leave the couple alone, i think, there is a good chance that they can make a marriage work, provided it is well thought out BEFORE the event.

My response in Bold Blue Font below your points

 

[kunjuppu]

hi vgane,

thank you for your detailed reply.

as you can see, you have extrapolated a lot of conclusions from my note to you, not all of them correct, from my pov. but let it stay, as that is your belief.

i have to agree, that there are lots of folks who strongly believe in castes. but i think, and i may be wrong, the whole of india, is moving away from caste, albeit slowly, but steadily.

i think this will continue. it is upto us to manage this. if we put strong rules against our children marrying other castes, they will take refuge in the other's family. we lose our children. the choice is ours, each one of us.

so upto each one of us, if and when faced with this situation, whether to manage it to our benefit, or otherwise.

peace

 

[renuka]

Dear Dr Renu

Your post # 3.

You seem to have taken the literal meaning and done some word splitting. "Mental Migration" is a
process that takes place in every evolving society. The subject deals specifically with ethno-culturally
enclosed societies and issues of diaspora communities wherein "Participation Therapies" have been recommended
to address the issues concerned. It is a 'process' - pretty abstract.

That is like the word 'Slumdog' that conveys quite a contrary meaning if split.

Seclusions & Inclusions form part of the Participation Therapy - eg., the discarding of racial superiority
or the abolishing of slave trade can be attributed to "Mental Migration".

As Sangom says, one street / residential complex / one family might be too small a specimen to observe
and make a generalization out of. But I think Ravi has utilized the correct term and in the correct context.

Yay Yem

Dear AM ji,

My post #3 which you are referring too has been deleted by moderator..current post #3 is the verse from Geeta.

 

[biswa]

A contrarian point of view may be to measure global impact instead of impact to one constituent when two ingredients are mixed. For example, if one glass of pure water is mixed with one glass of polluted water, the whole water becomes polluted. On the other hand if one intelligent kid studies with one weaker kid, maybe both raise their intellectual level.

I dont have data, but I have questions. Are children of ICMs necessarily NV? If they result in more V people globally, isnt that a good thing. Are children of ICMs necessarily irreligious and uncultured? If they turn out to be more cultured and respectful, isn't that a good thing? Are the children of ICM necessarily dumb and brutish? If they turn out to be intelligent and respectful, isn't that a good thing? Are children of ICMs necessarily foul looking? If they turn out to be handsome or exotically attractive, isn't that a good thing?

What I am saying is that it need not be a zero sum game where one side loses and the other side wins. Hybrid vigour could be a win-win.