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Is organized religion - propagated only through GUILT?

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prasad1

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I am a Hindu, and a believer of Advaita philosophy. I believe in Karma & rebirth.
I have very little faith in organized religion, and practically no faith in godman/ godwoman.
I have been on this site for sometime and may be I have been influenced by Sangomji's critical views(sorry Sangomji).
I do not know about other religions, So my observations are based on Hinduism.

On the way from Vrindavan to Mathura, before you reach the Pagal Baba Ashram, there is a Hanuman temple called ‘Luteria Hanuman’. In my childhood we used to go there often and we were always told the story of the temple: a group of robbers prayed to god Hanuman for the success of their next plan. If their robbery was successful, they would donate half of the money to Hanuman. They were lucky in their mischief and kept their word. They donated half of what they had got to the temple which has ever since been known as ‘Luteria Hanuman’, the Hanuman of robbers.

There are literally hundreds of such stories. Even in Christianity and Islam such stories are common.

If you notice what exactly happens in those stories, it is also interesting that religion covers up for all those crimes! The story is about someone stealing or murdering and in the end everything is fine. Why? Because the temple, God or religion got money! Through this, every crime is justified. Even if you are a criminal, it is fully fine, as long as you are devoted. These stories are spread all over the country. Is this what religion wants to teach us?

This concept of forgiveness for the crimes fills the coffers of religious organizations, but if it is true then Religion is bad.

Criminals and people who do wrong live in fear. They are afraid of the consequences of their actions. Religion gives them a good way to find forgiveness. You only need to go to the temple regularly, tell a priest about what you have on your mind, pay some money, say some prayers and you are forgiven. Then you can go out to do the next crime. This is the concept of confession or, in Hinduism, Prayaschit. God is merciful and will forgive you, so it doesn’t matter what you do.


I don’t say that everybody who goes to temple is afraid and has done crimes but I know that many people go and do their worship because they have a bad conscience. If you are honest, there is no need to be afraid and no need to go and confess.

I have started reading a blog, and I am inspired by that blog.
Sponsor a Child, Yoga, Ayurveda, Ashram, Retreats in India, Ayurveda Yoga Holidays
 
Religions want to make you feel guilty. If you feel guilty, you will come to them to confess. You have to live in fear that God might punish you and they teach this already to young children. This is why I say religion is not good and unnecessary. A constant feeling of guilt reflects in other areas of your life, too, and it creates psychic problems! I have met many people who always live in guilt and they have problems leading a normal life. You are always wrong, you are always guilty.
Of course you have to teach your children to accept their mistakes so that they don’t repeat them. You, as an adult, have to think of the consequences of your actions. But whatever you do, don’t be afraid of God and don’t spend your life in a permanent state of guilt. If you pray your rosary or Mantra a thousand times, does that really help correcting your mistake? Did that really alleviate your conscience? Do you think God loves you again after this act of penance?
I believe we should live free of such fear and guilt. If you made a mistake, accept it. You have to take care not to repeat it and if you can apologize or repair, do it. You can calm yourself in meditation or prayer but don’t have the idea that God saw what you did, got angry, wanted to punish you but got satisfied through your prayer. There is no need to confess to any priest. Answer your own conscience. God is inside you and all of us.
I am reminded of Kabir's Doha:

Jaise Til Mein Tel Hai, Jyon Chakmak Mein Aag
Tera Sayeen Tujh Mein Hai, Tu Jaag Sake To Jaag
[Just as seed contains the oil, fire's in flint stone
Your temple seats the Divine, realize if you can]
 
Dear Prasad ji,

THE STORY OF THE PASTOR AND SATAN
KHALIL GIBRAN

The story about a religious lea
HOLHW094COMPR.jpg
der in a town that everyone in the town looked up to for spiritual guidance. We will call the leader Pastor. Basically it can be almost any denomination.


The pastor was an authority on sin, heaven, hell and all the rest and he taught the people all of these things and preached salvation.

The pastor waged a consistent war against Satan.

THE STORY AS WRITTEN BY KHALIL GIBRAN

One evening the pastor was out walking and he heard an anguished cry.
He looked and saw a battered man lying in the gutter.
His clothes were ripped and he was covered in blood.

The man was crying, save me, have mercy on me, please help me, I am dying.
The pastor did not want to get involved.
He thought that the man was probably drunk, or on drugs, or maybe he was a criminal and was in a fight with other criminals.
His first reaction was to keep going and not get involved.

He kept walking, nervously looking over his shoulder the wounded man yelled,
Please don’t leave me. I am dying.
The pastor then thought that possibly the man was insane or something.
He didn’t know what to do.
He kept walking but then the man called out, please come close to me.
You and I have been friends for a long time.
Don’t you recognize me ?.
You pastor are the Good Shepherd, I am not a criminal, I am not insane.
Please you know me, come over to me and I will tell you who I am.

The pastor leaned down and said, what do you mean, who I am. I don’t know you.
Who are you. ?

And the man struggled to talk through a bloody mouth.

Oh you know me. You’ve seen me a thousand times and you talk about me every day.
I'm dearer to you then your own life.
The pastor said, your also a liar.
Your dying.
You better start telling the truth.
I don’t know you. I've never seen your lying face before.
The wounded man moved slowly, looked squarely into the pastors eyes and suddenly
a small smile appeared on his bloody lips. In a deep smooth voice he then said.
I am Satan.
The pastor recoiled and screamed at the distorted face in the gutter,
God has shown me your hellish image and justly caused me to hate you.
Cursed be you forevermore, the mangled lamb must be destroyed by the shepherd lest he will infect the other lambs.
Satan answered.
Be not in haste pastor.
Come and close my wounds quickly before life departs from my body.
The pastor responded.
These hands which offer a daily sacrifice to God. Shall not touch a body made from the secretions of hell.
You must die accursed by the ages, for you are the enemy of all humanity and it is your purpose to destroy all virtue.

Satan painfully raised himself on one elbow.

You don’t know what your saying, You don’t know what crime you are committing against yourself.

Today I was walking alone, bothering no one when a band of angels descended to attack me, and severely injured me.

I would have been able to drive them off if it had not been for one who had a blazing sword with two sharp edges.
I simply had no power against the brilliant sword.
Satan gasped and paused for a moment in obvious pain.
The armed angel , I believe his name was Michael was an expert gladiator.
Had I not fallen to the ground and pretended to be dead he would have torn me to pieces.
The pastor looked upward and said, blessed be Michaels name who has saved humanity from this vicious enemy.
Satan painfully looked up at the pastor and said.
You are blessing Michael who never has come to your rescue.
You are cursing me in my hour of defeat, even though I was and still am the source of your tranquility and happiness.

You deny me your blessing and extend not your kindness but you live and prosper in the shadow of my being.

You have adopted for my existence an excuse and weapon for your career, and you employ my name in justification for your deeds.
Has not my past caused you to be in need of my present and my future.

Why is it pastor that you wish my death.

Have you reached your goal in amassing wealth.?
Have you found it impossible to extract more gold and silver from your followers using my kingdom as a threat ?

Pastor, do you realize that you will starve to death if I die.?
What would you do tomorrow if you allowed me to die today ?
What vocation would you pursue if my name disappeared.

For decades you have been roaming these villages and warning people against falling into my hands .
They have paid for your advice with their dollars and the products of their land.

What would they buy from you tomorrow if they discovered that their wicked enemy no longer exists.
Your occupation would die with me, for the people would be safe from sin.

As a clergyman surely you realize that my existence alone has created my enemy, the church.

You and I together are the conflict which removes gold and silver from the faithful pockets, and
deposits it into the pouch of the preacher and the missionary.

How can you permit me to die here when you know it will surely cause you to lose your prestige,
your church, your home and your livelihood.

I am the father and mother of sin, and if sin were to vanish,
the fighters of sin would vanish with it, along with their families and structures.

And Satan stretched his arms and bent his head forward and gasped deeply.
His face turned to grey.
Then he fixed his glittering eyes upon the pastors face and said in a faltering voice.
I am tired and weak.
I did wrong by using my waning strength to speak on things you already know.

Now you may do as you please.
You may carry me to your home and treat my wounds or leave me in this place to die.

The pastor quivered and rubbed his hands and replied.
I know now what I had not known an hour ago.
Forgive my ignorance.
I know that your existence in this world creates temptation
and temptation is a measurement by which God adjudges the value of human souls.

The pastor continued.
Satan, you must live, for if you die and the people know it.
Their fear of hell will vanish, and they will cease worshipping, for nothing would be sin.
You must live, for in your life is the salvation of humanity, from vice and sin.

Satan laughed and replied.
What an intelligent person you are pastor.
And what wonderful knowledge you posses in theological facts.
You have found through the power of your knowledge a purpose for my existence
which I had never understood and now we realize our need for each other.

Come close to me my brother, darkness is submerging the plains, and half of my blood has escaped upon the sand of this valley, and nothing remains of me but the remnants of a broken body, which death shall soon buy unless you render aid.

The pastor then lifted Satan upon his back and walked toward his home

In the midst of those valleys, engulfed with silence and embellished with the veil of darkness, the pastor walked toward the village with his back bent under his heavy burden.
His black raiment and long beard were spattered with blood streaming from above him but he struggled forward, his lips moving in fervent prayer for the life of the dying Satan.




FROM THE EAST
 
It is not right to condemn religion because some people connected to religion have been bad. By the same token would you condemn science for all the misuse that being done with scientific knowledge? Hinduism can teach us to understand many things which by individual effort is not possible. Even the great Sankara needed the knowledge of so many people before him to create his work of advaita. And we need Sankara's Advaita to understand many things better. So some sort of organized work is necessary to develop and sustain certain knowledge. Let us strive to take the good.
 
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It is not right to condemn religion because some people connected to religion have been bad. By the same token would you condemn science for all the misuse that being done with scientific knowledge? Hinduism can teach us to understand many things which by individual effort is not possible. Even the great Sankara needed the knowledge of so many people before him to create his work of advaita. And we need Sankara's Advaita to understand many things better. So some sort of organized work is necessary to develop and sustain certain knowledge. Let us strive to take the good.
I like your theory that faith should not be taken away from people since some of those connected with religion are bad. many senior citizen hold on to faith as other elements of happiness such as family and friends slowly disappear for many reasons and there are no jobs for them. hence the faith and trips of pilgrimage to Kashi ,rameswaram. Their brains also gets stunted and loses ability for cogent thinking. hence a pilgrimage based on faith is all bliss and no hard thinking
 
continuing my last post , there is the concept of vanaprastham when a senior citizen relinquishes his family and friends and heads to nearest vana for spending his balance years meditating and in service gf God. In modern times it has come to mean general escape to places of faith and having a rolicking time performing odd rituals, My FIL would frequently talk of that and he had a small suitcase always packed up. He would vanish whenever harassed by children and grand children . he used to baby sit and was duly exploited by all his daughters including DIL. He spent 25 yrs doing this happily after retirement until health gave way. He continues to be a great inspiration for me
 
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Most religious traditions have their value in a person's life with great chance for significant harm.
They all address the needs of an insecure and greedy person.

All religions in my above comment include all vintages of Hinduism including non-organized believers of Atheism.

A religion is harmful if its doctrine requires exclusivity thereby needing its followers to convert. Among the major religions of today only Hinduism and Judaism do not have planned conversion of others. All others employ guilt to convert unsuspecting people with the notion that 'end justifies the means'.

If we have mutual respect for each other as human beings and have respect towards all beings then religions cannot cause harm even if they may or may not add value.

Mutual respect means not mocking other's traditions in the name of some rational thinking - such people are more harmful in a society in my view.

For a person to mature and grow beyond just aging they have to go beyond the doctrines of any religion.

Organized religions - usually infested with ignorant people driven by needs of insecurity and greed - will always employ guilt and hurt as a tool to keep their followers in check.
 
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There are Christian missionaries who come to India, travel through villages and convert poor people to Christianity. They go especially into small villages and offer them food, clothing, education and often even money and jobs. They provide this all but with the condition that they get baptized and become Christians. In this way people have a chance to survive and come out of their poverty.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think it is a good idea to convert anybody to any religion. I actually think it is pretty stupid to try and make others believe what you believe. I never try to change anybody’s belief and I would never expect that someone, whom I tell what I believe in, leaves his ideas and starts following the same way that I follow.

Why do you have to bribe someone to convert to your religion? If your religion is really the best, wouldn’t people decide for it out of their free will and not because they are obliged to?


http://www.jaisiyaram.com/blog/reli...to-hindu-or-christian-religion-28-sep-11.html
 
There are Christian missionaries who come to India, travel through villages and convert poor people to Christianity. They go especially into small villages and offer them food, clothing, education and often even money and jobs. They provide this all but with the condition that they get baptized and become Christians. In this way people have a chance to survive and come out of their poverty.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think it is a good idea to convert anybody to any religion. I actually think it is pretty stupid to try and make others believe what you believe. I never try to change anybody’s belief and I would never expect that someone, whom I tell what I believe in, leaves his ideas and starts following the same way that I follow.

Why do you have to bribe someone to convert to your religion? If your religion is really the best, wouldn’t people decide for it out of their free will and not because they are obliged to?


Stupid Idea of Converting Poor People to Hindu or Christian Religion - 28 Sep 11
Religeous promote guilt feelings in people to make them stick to their religion fine . agreed
conversion by missionaries of the poor - when you are totally poor ,conversion is the only choice for survival ,the poor take it.
when your co religionists do not aid you why is it wrong
My tamil driver got converted when he was contemplating suicide . The local church gave him free accomodation,in return for some minor church work on sundays. helped educating his kids in convents ,found employment for his daughter. hindu religion did nothing ,left him to die.
I do not blame him . . Missionaries extracted their price for the aid which is conversion. I do not know if their approach was correct. At least my drivers life has been saved and he has become a useful member of society
 
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I am a Hindu, and a believer of Advaita philosophy. I believe in Karma & rebirth.
I have very little faith in organized religion, and practically no faith in godman/ godwoman.
I have been on this site for sometime and may be I have been influenced by Sangomji's critical views(sorry Sangomji).
I do not know about other religions, So my observations are based on Hinduism.

Shri Prasad,

You are giving me a great responsibility by saying that you may have been influenced by my critical views. Though this frightens me to some extent, I take courage by saying that this is not a fresh path trodden by me but great people like Kabirdas had paved this way for us, long before. It is my sincere feeling that even Adi Shankara aimed at preaching the same path, but for various reasons, the advaitha philosophy has gone the way it has.

On the way from Vrindavan to Mathura, before you reach the Pagal Baba Ashram, there is a Hanuman temple called ‘Luteria Hanuman’. In my childhood we used to go there often and we were always told the story of the temple: a group of robbers prayed to god Hanuman for the success of their next plan. If their robbery was successful, they would donate half of the money to Hanuman. They were lucky in their mischief and kept their word. They donated half of what they had got to the temple which has ever since been known as ‘Luteria Hanuman’, the Hanuman of robbers.
There are literally hundreds of such stories. Even in Christianity and Islam such stories are common.

In hinduism, we will find, uniformly, a tendency for extreme overstatement when it comes to topics such as these. Our ancient scriptures were composed during a period when, probably, the composers as well as the listeners/readers did not have the benefit of modern science as it is, today and so they considered such extreme overstatements as necessary and desirable to highlight and underscore the glories, omniscience, omnipotence, kindness and other "kalyaanagunas" of the gods. Some practical results like this instance of "Luteria Hanuman" also came into being, as a result.

Bhadraachala Ramadasu story, Kannappan's story, etc., are a few examples which come readily to mind.

I am not so familiar with Islam, Christianity, etc. So I cannot say whether such stories exist in those. But all these religions are built upon similar blue-prints and so such overstatements must be present, imho.

If you notice what exactly happens in those stories, it is also interesting that religion covers up for all those crimes! The story is about someone stealing or murdering and in the end everything is fine. Why? Because the temple, God or religion got money! Through this, every crime is justified. Even if you are a criminal, it is fully fine, as long as you are devoted. These stories are spread all over the country. Is this what religion wants to teach us?
This concept of forgiveness for the crimes fills the coffers of religious organizations, but if it is true then Religion is bad.

If we make a dispassionate analysis, it is easy to see that what the religion aims to do, through such narrations is the same which we see, day in and day out, in the advt. video clips for health drinks, health foods, health exercising machines, ayurvedic/herbal products for various purposes, and so on. All these claim full success but there is no action possible against the manufacturers if the claimed results are not achieved. The same holds good for religion too.


Religions want to make you feel guilty. If you feel guilty, you will come to them to confess. You have to live in fear that God might punish you and they teach this already to young children. This is why I say religion is not good and unnecessary. A constant feeling of guilt reflects in other areas of your life, too, and it creates psychic problems! I have met many people who always live in guilt and they have problems leading a normal life. You are always wrong, you are always guilty.
Of course you have to teach your children to accept their mistakes so that they don’t repeat them. You, as an adult, have to think of the consequences of your actions. But whatever you do, don’t be afraid of God and don’t spend your life in a permanent state of guilt. If you pray your rosary or Mantra a thousand times, does that really help correcting your mistake? Did that really alleviate your conscience? Do you think God loves you again after this act of penance?
I believe we should live free of such fear and guilt. If you made a mistake, accept it. You have to take care not to repeat it and if you can apologize or repair, do it. You can calm yourself in meditation or prayer but don’t have the idea that God saw what you did, got angry, wanted to punish you but got satisfied through your prayer. There is no need to confess to any priest. Answer your own conscience. God is inside you and all of us.
I am reminded of Kabir's Doha:

Jaise Til Mein Tel Hai, Jyon Chakmak Mein Aag
Tera Sayeen Tujh Mein Hai, Tu Jaag Sake To Jaag
[Just as seed contains the oil, fire's in flint stone
Your temple seats the Divine, realize if you can]

I do not think that hinduism does not have, as its only and major objective, the idea of wanting to make you feel guilty so that you come to religion in order to 'confess' or otherwise get rid of that guilt. Hinduism employs almost all possible devices so that people will be completely brainwashed by one of its weapons or another.

The creation of guilt feeling is there but instead of Christianity's confession (whose efficacy can be easily exposed) in hinduism there are "parihaarams" and/or "praayaschitthams" which are religious rites of one type or another and the hindu priest is just an agent between the sinner and the god, he makes his earnings but takes no responsibility for the efficacy or otherwise of the praayaschtthams/ parihaarams performed; these are between the devotee and god.

Then we have the erotica to attract people who may have a liking for such a line. (I have a feeling that you have a soft corner towards this line of advertisement and so I am not explaining it more.)

Then there is the blunt threat like the Garuda Puraana, the hells and how the unholy Ajamila could get out of all such threats by mere calling out god's name in his dying moment.

Bhakti - pure and unconditional - towards god, especially vishnu or any of his avataars is yet another method of luring people into religion. The story of Prahlada, the elephant Gajendra, etc., are examples.

On the other hand, hindu religion was so astute that it takes care to put out all manifestations of self-confidence and the many stories of asuras, rakshasas, etc., are examples; but, the crest jewel is the story of Mahabali whose crime was that he aspired for Indra's Chair as and when it would become vacant due to the death of the then existing Indra.

Thus, there was a complete psychological ban on any hindu follower becoming a bit self-confident. Absolute servitude or "vidhEyatva" was thus required from all believing hindus. This is my reading.
 
On the way from Vrindavan to Mathura, before you reach the Pagal Baba Ashram, there is a Hanuman temple called ‘Luteria Hanuman’. In my childhood we used to go there often and we were always told the story of the temple: a group of robbers prayed to god Hanuman for the success of their [COLOR=#DA7911 !important]next[/COLOR] plan. If their robbery was successful, they would donate half of the money to Hanuman. They were lucky in their mischief and kept their word. They donated half of what they had got to the temple which has ever since been known as ‘Luteria Hanuman’, the Hanuman of robbers.


Respected Prasad1ji,
This kind of names and epithets can be found even in our oldest scriptures "Vedas". In Shri RudraNamakam
( Anuvaka 3)


Namo Nishngina ishudhimathe thaskaraanam pathaye namo nama.
Vanchathe pari vanchathe sthayoonam pathaye namo nama
Nicherave paricharaayaaranyanam pathaye namo nama


Srukaavibhyo jikaam sathbhyo mushnathaam pathaye namo nama
Assemadbhyo naktham charadbhya prukrunthanaam pathaye namo nama.
Unmeeshine giricharaaya kulanchaanaam pathaye namo nama.




Meaning:
Prostration to the Chief of robbers, to Him who is armed with quiver and arrows; prostration to the
deceiving, the tricky and elusive Lord of marauders; prostration to the ever-cunning Leader of the thieves
lurking at home and those wandering in the streets and the forests.


Prostration to the Chief of the self-protecting animals and of the retaliating thieves ever ready to strike
people to death; prostration to the Chief of dacoits, armed with swords and prowling in the night for
booty; prostration to the roving Chief with helmet and turban, wandering through the mountains, who
steals away people ’s belongings in houses and fields.


Now, new-readers by knowing this may start wondering about Lord Rudra( Lord Shiva) but Wait!! consider this also of the same Adhyaya( 2nd Anuvaka-which actually comes before above reference):


Namo hiranya bahave , senanye ,dhisaam cha pathaye namo nama.
Vrukshobhyo , harikeshabhya , pasunaam pathaye namo nama.
Saspinjaraaya , twishee mathe , padheenaam pathaye namo nama.


meaning:


Prostration to the Golden-armed One, the Supreme Commander of all forces, the Lord of all quarters.
Prostration to the Vital Essence and Source of the green-leafed trees, the Master of all created beings.
Prostration to the Self-effulgent One, the Lord of the different routes (which souls take on departure from
this world).


A normal person may get confused. But actually basic philosophy of Hinduism( at least Upanishadic which I believe can be safely believed as starting point of philosophical Hinduism i.e from where all "Hindu" sects derive their spiritual material and concepts) in "Wholeness". All the good and bad are part & parcel of God as he is the originator of "ALL". If good is part of God then so is bad. This is where Christianity has a different approach. It sees everything as either good or bad. So all goods r in GOD while all Bads in Satan.
But when a Hindu chants
Vasudeva sarvamiti


Isavasya midam sarvam


Sarvam khalvidam Brahman


Om poornamadah poornamidam
Poornaat poornamudachyate
Poornasya poornamaadaya
Poornamevaavashishyate


He takes Brahman the essence of Universe which is " whole". Nothing transcends it. He is the creator as well as creation. He is warp as well as the spider. Thus he is the source of all opposite phenomenons and materials. For more astounding proclamations about Non-personal God one can refer Major Upanishads.


But Sangomji is right about Prayashchit. They include some rituals as token of showing that u r really aggrieved by what u have done. How these rituals help, I don't know but these rituals are waste until it comes out of ur inner heart. Anyhow Karmic couse takes its action sideways( I don't have any idea how Prashchit rituals fit in it). But one thing is for sure. Our basic philosophies demand purity and intent of inner world( mind and heart)[ Mann eva manushyanam bandh-mokhshyo= Mind is the reason for liberation or restrain of Jiva]. Although we tend to see more of outer rituals and outer purity( this has amounted to giving Indian society with rigid caste differentiation by which Brahmin presumely is purer than a chamar( cobbler).


Anyhow Hinduism is not an organized religion ( not at all if compared to Abrahmics). It is rather a popular religion whose laws also get changed acc to time( So may Dharmshastras!!!!!). But some of the tenets are generally common in all sects which provide coherence and identity( Indian) for it.
 
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