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Interfaith Marriage: Christian And Hindu Love Story Told In 'Saffron Cross'

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krish44

Gold Member
Gold Member
prasadji

when I got married more than thirty five years back some office colleagues mostly north indians landed up at the

reception and wanted to have their hard drinks . there were nice enough to carry their own hip flask and I provided

them soda , coke and delicacies. they occupied a dozen chairs at one end corner of the large lawn of reception venue

and drank it up.

next generation, bachelor friends [class mates] of my son both boys and girls gave a warm send off to my bachelor

son one evening before the wedding with a booze party at a hotel where they were put up

the local friends of the iyer girl he married had a mehndi ceremony for all ladies as per north india customs .

meat did not enter my cuisine . I do not know when vegetarianism got associated with brahmins . kashmiri brahmins

consume meat.I do not know about other brahmins
 

krish44

Gold Member
Gold Member
Not to worry, Prasad Sir! Krish Sir is your friend and when he arranges a 'liberal wedding', you will surely get the invitation. :welcome:

Please make sure that you get it well before the muhurtham, so that you can organize your flight tickets at cheapest rates! :)
RRJi
I will invite you also.

I am an excellent host.

I had arranged specially cooked brahmin food for an orthodox lady from chennai who normally would not consume

outside food. It was cooked by a equally orthodox brahmin lady at her home and it was served to her in a separate


place away from dining hall

I respect everyones feelings and desires.lol
 
OP
OP
prasad1

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Saraswat Brahmins of Bengal and Karnataka eat meat regularly. Even in their religious functions Fish is included.

There are more variations in Brahmin community than the colors of a rainbow. But if you have colored glass you fail to see all the colors.
 
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CHANDRU1849

Well-known member
A tambram guy said a big NO to any ritual, when he selected a Muslim girl as his soul mate.

His orthodox parents objected to his selection and the parents of the girl were NOT orthodox!

So, there was just a registration, in the company of the girl's parents and one member from the boy's family!
P.S: Money saved is money earned! :popcorn:

The boy may be an atheist or his parents would not have trained him in Hindu tradition. At the same time, it is quite unusual to find an unorthodox muslim.
 

CHANDRU1849

Well-known member
prasadji

when I got married more than thirty five years back some office colleagues mostly north indians landed up at the

reception and wanted to have their hard drinks . there were nice enough to carry their own hip flask and I provided

them soda , coke and delicacies. they occupied a dozen chairs at one end corner of the large lawn of reception venue

and drank it up.

next generation, bachelor friends [class mates] of my son both boys and girls gave a warm send off to my bachelor

son one evening before the wedding with a booze party at a hotel where they were put up

the local friends of the iyer girl he married had a mehndi ceremony for all ladies as per north india customs .

meat did not enter my cuisine . I do not know when vegetarianism got associated with brahmins . kashmiri brahmins

consume meat.I do not know about other brahmins

This is a perfect example of how Hindus, in general, and Brahmins, in particular, are serious about customs and conventions. Whilst it is true that some of the Brahmin customs are difficult to follow in the current situation, simple things like Veg food, no liquor can be followed without much difficulty. The NV and liquor craving guests also will not bother if the situation is explained properly. We take cover under some controversial words like secular, progressive, democratic and do as we like.

I have come across lot of educated Muslim friends who are very strict in adhering to no pork and no liquor concept.
 
OP
OP
prasad1

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
The boy may be an atheist or his parents would not have trained him in Hindu tradition. At the same time, it is quite unusual to find an unorthodox muslim.

I do not have personal Knowledge of these Muslims, and no interest in doing any research on them. I have met lot of Bohra Muslims in the business community.

There is whole community of Bohra Muslims. They speak Gujarati and not traditionalist. They have similar last name as Hindus, (patel, shah, Kapadia etc).
I even got one to contribute to our Hindu Temple construction.

In India, most Khojas live in the states of Gujarat, Maharashtra, Rajasthan and the city of Hyderabad. Many Khojas have also migrated and settled over the centuries in East Africa, Europe and North America. They are followers of Aga Khan. They also are not part of Taliban. Actually they are not considered Muslim in Pakistan.

Ahmadi Muslims firmly believe in the absolute Unity of God. They are persecuted in Pakistan, they have found refuge in Sri Lanka.

Ahmadiyya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://www.persecutionofahmadis.org/
 
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Vaagmi

Well-known member
vaagmiji
interesting post

I learn something everytime you post.

in case i get another iyer girl into my family, I shall add ganapathi puja in addition to vishwaksena aradhana.

in case there is some NV guests turn up at the wedding ,I shall also include some non veg items you have mentioned

to be separately served to them.why not?

marriages do not lose their legitamcy if they do not have vaagmijis'" stamp of approval.

Dear krishji,

I accept that as a compliment. Thank you.

Why only for the next Iyer girl? Why did you deny this right to the iyer girl already there as DIL? The democracy of the family took one step back perhaps. LOL.

Apart from non-veg items do remember pot. You can not be choosy. You have to give what they demand. A marriage is different things for different people.

Marriages will remain legitimate even if they take place in secret. That is not the point here. Those who proudly declare such marriages as show pieces have no legitimacy to claim them to TB marriages. That is the point. At best it is a kalappadam (கலப்படம்) marriage. And kalappadams are usually not liked by people.

And finally and most importantly--the people who are proud about such iC/IR marriages/monstrocities as well as the TB brides/grooms who take pride in such marriages as an instance that proves their boldness, their freedom, their 'liberal(sic)' outlook etc., are in an insignificant minority. Mostly such instances are in families of those TBs who have settled down in western countries or far away places in north in India. So the saving grace is that for every such IC/IR marriage there are a hundred normal, within the caste, TB marriages do take place. So I am least disturbed when the vociferous few here keep reporting repeatedly about such marriages "in my family" , "in my friend's family", "in a relative's family" etc., I just smile and move on. I am least bothered when those who should are themselves are not. And that should answer your shot at Vaagmiji's Stamp of Approval (VSA) conclusively. LOL.

I close this with this quote from malayalam "ஆனைக்கு மதம் பிடிச்சால் சங்கல கொண்டு கெட்டியிடாம். சங்கலய்க்கு மதம் பிடிச்சால் எந்து செய்யும்?" (rough translation: If an elephant goes mad it can be tied down by a chain. If the chain goes mad what can be done?)
 

CHANDRU1849

Well-known member
I do not have personal Knowledge of these Muslims, and no interest in doing any research on them. I have met lot of Bohra Muslims in the business community.

There is whole community of Bohra Muslims. They speak Gujarati and not traditionalist. They have similar last name as Hindus, (patel, shah, Kapadia etc).
I even got one to contribute to our Hindu Temple construction.

I heard Bohra Muslims had roots from Brahmin community.
 

tbs

Well-known member
prasadji

when I got married more than thirty five years back some office colleagues mostly north indians landed up at the

reception and wanted to have their hard drinks . there were nice enough to carry their own hip flask and I provided

them soda , coke and delicacies. they occupied a dozen chairs at one end corner of the large lawn of reception venue

and drank it up.

next generation, bachelor friends [class mates] of my son both boys and girls gave a warm send off to my bachelor

son one evening before the wedding with a booze party at a hotel where they were put up

the local friends of the iyer girl he married had a mehndi ceremony for all ladies as per north india customs .

meat did not enter my cuisine . I do not know when vegetarianism got associated with brahmins . kashmiri brahmins

consume meat.I do not know about other brahmins[
/QUOTE]

hi

in all ceremonies....meat is must for kashmiri brahmins.....fish is must for bengali brahmins....
 

Raji Ram

Gold Member
Gold Member
1. The boy may be an atheist or his parents would not have trained him in Hindu tradition.
2. At the same time, it is quite unusual to find an unorthodox muslim.
Sorry for dragging them again in this thread. Answers:

1. He performs sandhyAvandhanam even after marriage.

2. Exceptions are always there! :cool:

 

krish44

Gold Member
Gold Member
Dear krishji,

I accept that as a compliment. Thank you.

Why only for the next Iyer girl? Why did you deny this right to the iyer girl already there as DIL? The democracy of the family took one step back perhaps. LOL.

Apart from non-veg items do remember pot. You can not be choosy. You have to give what they demand. A marriage is different things for different people.

Marriages will remain legitimate even if they take place in secret. That is not the point here. Those who proudly declare such marriages as show pieces have no legitimacy to claim them to TB marriages. That is the point. At best it is a kalappadam (கலப்படம்) marriage. And kalappadams are usually not liked by people.

And finally and most importantly--the people who are proud about such iC/IR marriages/monstrocities as well as the TB brides/grooms who take pride in such marriages as an instance that proves their boldness, their freedom, their 'liberal(sic)' outlook etc., are in an insignificant minority. Mostly such instances are in families of those TBs who have settled down in western countries or far away places in north in India. So the saving grace is that for every such IC/IR marriage there are a hundred normal, within the caste, TB marriages do take place. So I am least disturbed when the vociferous few here keep reporting repeatedly about such marriages "in my family" , "in my friend's family", "in a relative's family" etc., I just smile and move on. I am least bothered when those who should are themselves are not. And that should answer your shot at Vaagmiji's Stamp of Approval (VSA) conclusively. LOL.

I close this with this quote from malayalam "ஆனைக்கு மதம் பிடிச்சால் சங்கல கொண்டு கெட்டியிடாம். சங்கலய்க்கு மதம் பிடிச்சால் எந்து செய்யும்?" (rough translation: If an elephant goes mad it can be tied down by a chain. If the chain goes mad what can be done?)
vaagmiji

thank you for your response.

there can hardly be denial of the fact there is kalappadam when vaishnavite brahmin marries a saivite brahmin

who worship different Gods in the manner they desire. When vaishnavite community is small in number, this kind of

compromises are inevitable. Similar is the issue when a brahmin girl unable many times to put up with the demands

of orthodox community in terms of dowry and adherance to strict rituals opts for a NB who cherishes her.

now whether this is desirable or not is another thing.

not coming to terms with it and running away to remote corner of india and living in isolation is no solution.

passing a judgement or condemning it does not help the community much.

the other alternative of staying unmarried which prospect many brahmin boys and girls are facing due to strict

adherence to community norms is a worser option

To take heart only those in other parts of country or westernised types have become like this is not wise. if you look

around in tamilnadu , in every family you will find atleast one boy or girl who has defied the narrow norms and got

married breaking the barriers of sect, subcaste or caste .

in terms of rituals performed in mixed marriages or cuisine or mode of celebration if there are kalappadam , what is

the harm if the marriage itself is kalappadam of two castes to which the boy and girl belong.

as long as the boy and the girl who marry like it, I would be least bothered if the general public does not like it.we

do not live for societys happiness. as long it can tolerate this marriage it is good enough. If the local society is

intolerant we shall choose a society which will put up with it .

by the way the iyer girls family performed some rituals separately at the start of marriage, could be ganapathi

homam. I did not find out. the womenfolk of girls family wore madisar their iyer style and those of my family

vaishnavite style.



style
 
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Vaagmi

Well-known member
vaagmiji
thank you for your response.
there can hardly be denial of the fact there is kalappadam when vaishnavite brahmin marries a saivite brahmin
who worship different Gods in the manner they desire. When vaishnavite community is small in number, this kind of
compromises are inevitable. Similar is the issue when a brahmin girl unable many times to put up with the demands
of orthodox community in terms of dowry and adherance to strict rituals opts for a NB who cherishes her.
now whether this is desirable or not is another thing.
not coming to terms with it and running away to remote corner of india and living in isolation is no solution.
passing a judgement or condemning it does not help the community much.
the other alternative of staying unmarried which prospect many brahmin boys and girls are facing due to strict
adherence to community norms is a worser option
To take heart only those in other parts of country or westernised types have become like this is not wise. if you look
around in tamilnadu , in every family you will find atleast one boy or girl who has defied the narrow norms and got
married breaking the barriers of sect, subcaste or caste .
in terms of rituals performed in mixed marriages or cuisine or mode of celebration if there are kalappadam , what is
the harm if the marriage itself is kalappadam of two castes to which the boy and girl belong.
as long as the boy and the girl who marry like it, I would be least bothered if the general public does not like it.we
do not live for societys happiness. as long it can tolerate this marriage it is good enough. If the local society is
intolerant we shall choose a society which will put up with it .
by the way the iyer girls family performed some rituals separately at the start of marriage, could be ganapathi
homam. I did not find out. the womenfolk of girls family wore madisar their iyer style and those of my family
vaishnavite style.

Krishji,

There appears to be a misinterpretation/misunderstanding. Let me say this about my position:

1. I am not against brahmin/brahmin marriage. Iyengar/Iyer, Iyer/Madhwa, Iyengar/Madhwa, Iyer/Telugu Niyogi, Iyengar/T.Niyogi, etc. are Brahmin/Brahmin marriages. They are not I/C or I/R marriages.

2. My statement that there are fewer such IC marriages and that majority of the alliances are B-B type is not running away from any truth. I am aware that the IC marriages are happening in increasing numbers. But I consider that as a temporary spike and an initial flush of enthusiasm because of the power released by changing economic scenario. But this will certainly change and is changing. I know girls who dismiss the idea of a IC or IR marriage out of hand straight. The education has also made many girls really intelligent and smart besides giving them the desire to enjoy the new-found freedom to choose. In families where parents have respect among youngsters things work well. Where parents have alienated the children there is just contempt and devious ways are found to hit back at them when the chance comes. The parents are responsible for many problems.

3. For a Tamil Brahmin marriage is not just a celebration. It is much more than that. This is not the place to discuss it in detail. For him a poonool is not a tool to scratch his inaccessible back. A vidhyarambam for his daughter or son is not just a wasteful ritual in which a pot-bellied brahmin is encouraged to fatten himself. A shradhdham is not again an occasion to splash money around to feed brahmins and trying to remember the forefathers whom one might not have even seen once.

We do salute on a Republic day the National flag. The flag is just a piece of cloth fluttering at the top of a pole. There is strictly no physical difference between the flag and a kaubeenam because both are woven cloth and the basic material used is cotton fibre. But a flag is symbolic of many things while a kaubeenam is ..... you know what.

Having said that I would like to reiterate that a TB marriage is meaningful to those who really bother to know and is just a "kaubeenam" to those who see just that only. It is not only an occasion to celebrate but also a solemn occasion when several pledges are taken. To trash all of them and indulge in just trivialising spree is not only ignorance but also a sin.

If I find that the society in which I live is aghast at some of my cultural practices I will introspect and change if necessary or remain firm with what I have if they are valuable. I won't run away looking for a society which is licentious and which will help me slide faster in my route to depravity.

I close for the present.
 
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krish44

Gold Member
Gold Member
Vaagmiji
About 30 years back a vishnavite brahmin marrying any other brahmin was not acceptable. now most accept brahmin

marrying any other brahmin. when times change thinking also changes.

2. your position now is brahmin-brahmin OK , IC/IR no

3. the next evolutionary change would be any forward caste is ok. say mudaliar,pillaimars among tamils, naidu

reddiers among telugus,nairs and menons among malayalis etc getting accepted by brahmins. in another thirty years

this may become possible. times do change and along with it acceptability.if these forward castes become affluent ,

they may get accepted faster.

there can hardly be a hard and position in a evolutionary society.

2. who is responsible for marrying into related castes is an issue of only apportioning blame. holding parents or the

child responsible. the basic issue is affluence of other castes and marriage becoming difficult in brahmin community.

due to increased aspiration of educated professional women to a better and more equitable life denied to them by a

male dominated brahmin society.

3, your position that brahmin marriage is holier than a marriage of other castes is not acceptable and it is not a

mindset becoming of a brahmin intellectual. the pledges taken in any marriage is the same namely you will respect

each other and be faithful to each other and stay together thru thick and thin. only you might take these pledges in

sanskrit instead of tamil. that does not make the marriage more holy.pledges being the same,there is no issue of

trivialisation as such

The few moments of happiness shared through grand celebration in terms of food or drinks or dancing or revelry does

not alter the basic premises of marriage.

there is nothing much licentious about drinking or dancing or consuming non veg food and these have become part of

urban living. do you have any statistics of how many working youngsters do not drink . it may be a small minority.

most youngsters are eggetarians if not meat eaters.it is a matter of changing lifestyles. the new age youngsters work

hard, earn big and live well consuming drinks and foods that is not pure vegetarian. there is no point living in an

illusory world of your own ignoring the realities around you
 
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Vaagmi

Well-known member
Vaagmiji
About 30 years back a vishnavite brahmin marrying any other brahmin was not acceptable. now most accept brahmin
marrying any other brahmin. when times change thinking also changes.
2. your position now is brahmin-brahmin OK , IC/IR no
3. the next evolutionary change would be any forward caste is ok. say mudaliar,pillaimars among tamils, naidu
reddiers among telugus,nairs and menons among malayalis etc getting accepted by brahmins. in another thirty years
this may become possible. times do change and along with it acceptability.if these forward castes become affluent ,
they may get accepted faster.
there can hardly be a hard and position in a evolutionary society.
2. who is responsible for marrying into related castes is an issue of only apportioning blame. holding parents or the
child responsible. the basic issue is affluence of other castes and marriage becoming difficult in brahmin community.
due to increased aspiration of educated professional women to a better and more equitable life denied to them by a
male dominated brahmin society.
3, your position that brahmin marriage is holier than a marriage of other castes is not acceptable and it is not a
mindset becoming of a brahmin intellectual. the pledges taken in any marriage is the same namely you will respect
each other and be faithful to each other and stay together thru thick and thin. only you might take these pledges in
sanskrit instead of tamil. that does not make the marriage more holy.pledges being the same,there is no issue of
trivialisation as such
The few moments of happiness shared through grand celebration in terms of food or drinks or dancing or revelry does
not alter the basic premises of marriage.
there is nothing much licentious about drinking or dancing or consuming non veg food and these have become part of
urban living. do you have any statistics of how many working youngsters do not drink . it may be a small minority.
most youngsters are eggetarians if not meat eaters.it is a matter of changing lifestyles. the new age youngsters work
hard, earn big and live well consuming drinks and foods that is not pure vegetarian. there is no point living in an
illusory world of your own ignoring the realities around you

Krishji,

I do not want to be judgmental. But I have to say this. You have traveled too far into a certain territory which is lawless. Now you are trying to write down your own laws to suit the lawlessness there. My dear friend, you are in a shell and you have come to think that that shell is all that exists, that there is nothing outside that shell.

Thus any one can marry anyone else. And it will be called evolution. Those hundreds of marriages taking place within the same castes and the couples from such marriages living happily ever after is not recognizable as they are not inside the evolution that you know.
Parents have no role other than bringing their child into this world and giving it food. When the darling daughter tells the Dad that she was going on a date for two days with a boyfriend the Dad should just remind her about the pack of male condoms that she should take with her and nothing else. That too if he is bothered about the girl's furture only. If he is fully evolved he need not bother about that too.
In the morning when the marriage ritual is gone through, manthras which are chanted tie down the bride and groom to a certain discipline and in the same night all those solemn pledges can be dumped and people including the married couple can indulge in a binge.
Most of the youngsters eat meat and egg (I do not know wherefrom this info comes) and hence meat and egg eating is acceptable by brahmins.
Earning big necessarily should be followed by consumption of drinks and non-veg food.

You are lost into that shell for ever and are floundering without even realising it. God bless you.
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
Dear Krishji,

Going one step further, please answer these questions.

1. Don't you believe that culture and tradition impact the genes and hence brahmins are brahmins because of a certain culture and tradition through centuries? How do you believe that genetically an IC, IR marriage is tenable? Please do not tell me that marriage is just a short term phenomena like having a cup of coffee when you feel like it. Please get serious.

2. From starting with a bottle of beer then graduating into hard drinks like brandy, whisky and Rum or even Feni the journey is usually pretty short. The drink is alien to brahmin culture. I do not buy the argument that brahmins drank soma ras and so alcohol is nothing new to them. It is something borrowed from Sahib. Right from bottling it(even the size of the bottle is that determined by the Sahib), naming it-Lager beer, Whisky, wine etc.,- the ingradient that is mixed to it like soda water etc., the way it is cooled to low temperatures, the way it is taken with munchables or a light dish etc., every thing is imitating the Sahib. Even the jokes--like telling the fellow who gets the last drop of the liquor that he is lucky to get the "lucky drops"-- are borrowed from Sahib and like the crash dummies (that is a nice description I borrow from Renukaji) our youngsters keep repeating everything stupidly. And why do you call these Sahib ka ghulams as great free youngsters? Why do you go with them? Is it because of a fear that they will reject you as out of time and out of tune with their way of thinking? Dont you think they will do that any way? If you join them they may just say hey give that oldie one more peg and he will blow his top. The word oldie will be replaced by "my old man" if it is said by your son or daughter because they have evolved. LOL.

3. And such Sahib ka ghulams usually call other level headed people names and condescend with sympathy. LOL.

The best course will be for you to remain wherever you are and be happy and leave others to be happy wherever they are. When liberal advices are offered free and unasked and proud chest-beatings are displayed replies have to be offered and will have to be accepted without getting hurt. Hope you understand. Thanks.
 

krish44

Gold Member
Gold Member
there is no issue of hurting or getting hurt.vaagmiji

you are welcome to your life and wish you all the best in practice of brahminism as you see it

I prefer to continue my lifestyle after evaluating the pros and cons of your lifestyle.

we willl live our way and let others live their way.

I am reminded of sahir ludhianvis lines

hum janam bithake jayenge

aap janam gavake javoge

thanks for your illuminating posts.

with best wishes

krish44
 
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renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Its nice to read the exchange of opinions between Vaagmi Ji and Krish ji.

I am starting to feel they are made for each other and it's a match made in heaven cos they can debate so beautifully yet get the point across effectively without anyone losing their temper and later they kiss and make up if they offended one another.

I think we should have a Forum wedding and get Vaagmi ji and Krish ji married!LOL
 
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