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Interesting and shocking rituals at a Tambram wedding...

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I bet it was not written by any women or a humble man..........
"If she, who does not worship God, but who rising worships her husband, say, “let it rain, “ it will rain".
That is the translation of a 'ThirukkuraL' written by ThiruvaLLuvar. It was the custom at his time!

I wrote a hilarious meaning as told by my Tamil master, while at school. I am giving the translation for your sake.

'deyvam thozhAL kozhunan thozhuthezhuvAL
peyyenap peyyum mazhai.'

This is the KuraL.

deyvam thozhAL - she will not pray God

kozhunan thozhuthezhuvAL - she will get up only when the husband prays her (with a bed coffee!)
peyyenap peyyum mazhai - the rain will (fear and) pour down on her (the terrorist's) command! :pound:
 
It is sad commentary that Indian women live in 21st century and Indian men live in 14th century.
Unless these Indian men grow up and change their ancient way, they will be marginalized.
The ancient practice and rituals have to be modernized, but there is no incentive for the purveyor of these ancient rituals to change (in some cases revert back to 12th century). What incentive or Knowledge, the various matts have to adapt. Their followers are still in 14th century, and so they have no compulsion to update the arcane practice.
With the present day marriages, most of the arcane practice are only shows for public consumption.
Unfortunately the expectation of man and women are not on the same plane and consequently there are more unhappy marriages.
 
PrasadJi,

They wont grow up nor want to give up benefits. Thats real life. If you were given handouts/benefits will you willingly give it up? No way. I wouldn't either. Like Muslim men allowed polygamy, why on earth will they let go and give up such a priviledge. Nobody will. Only the oppressed have always fought for change. The ones who get the benefits and priviledges out of it wont. Why would they? So change will come by women.. because it suits them.
 
PrasadJi,

They wont grow up nor want to give up benefits. Thats real life. If you were given handouts/benefits will you willingly give it up? No way. I wouldn't either. Like Muslim men allowed polygamy, why on earth will they let go and give up such a priviledge. Nobody will. Only the oppressed have always fought for change. The ones who get the benefits and priviledges out of it wont. Why would they? So change will come by women.. because it suits them.

It might be true in India.
But look at USA emancipation of slaves was by White men (new movie Lincoln).
Women's voting right was granted by men.
There are number of White men who fought along with Martin Luther King for equal rights amendment, and school desegregation.
A lot of men including NFL players are fighting and contributing for breast cancer awareness.
There are many liberal men, and we fight for our daughters.
 
Frankly speaking I always wondered what gives anyone the right to dictate how another person should run his/her life.

Men somehow feel they are self crowned Kings who can dictate even how a woman should lead her life.

I feel Men and Woman should not really bother each other too much by imposing rules on each other.

I somehow dislike any form of Glorification of Women cos Glorification is a subtle form of subjugation.

All sorts of names bordering Divinity are given to woman..which is just subjugation in another form cos woman are forced to behave according to the glorified status.

I sometimes wonder why a woman is called Grihalakshmi when in an average Indian home she is always taken for granted and most of the time not dealt with respect.

She is just a washing machine,cooking machine,dowry machine and a reproduction machine.

After all even in Mahabharat ..Draupadi does say to Yudhisthira in Kirataarjuneeyam ..she says "I know that a woman's words and advise are never taken seriously but I am going to say what I feel anyhow" and she advises Yudhisthira to not resort to Ahimsa approach in dealling with the Kauravas.

It goes to show that men always felt they are one up.

Anyway the best is both sexes treat each other as friends and not try to control each other in day to day life.
 
Dear Renuka,

Your post #30 for reference:

(This post has become a little lengthy. Those who have poor attention span can skip and move.)

I presume you are not speaking here about men and women who live their lives separately. I also presume the context to be one in which they live together within a marriage.

When I had my military training, one cardinal principle that got ingrained in us was to remain always loyal to the command and be respectful to it under all circumstances. If a commander gave an order it was to be implicitly and explicitly obeyed because it was clearly understood that his responsibility to the nation and to our own lives was unquestionable. Thus either we moved ahead together and won a battle or if we lost the battle we all went down together.

In a family also some one has to lead. Because of age old customs the leadership role falls to the lot of husband. His role is: a husband, father and son and a brother all put together. If the family members have to progress the leader/commander has to be accepted and respected. In some families the commander's hat is donned by the wife. It all depends on who deserves to be the commander and who has the leadership qualities. One with such qualities asserts herself/himself and takes the commanders responsibility. In some families when the husband is dead the wife automatically takes the commander’s position and plays her role well. In those families in which the members fail to recognize this basic discipline for survival and progress there is always quarrel and sniping and the commander’s position is
undermined. The commander has to keep watching over his shoulders to see who from the team is going to stab him next. Such families do not go too far. They surely disintegrate and the members suffer.

In my house we have the family council( this is a convenient name we have given as it is understood well by all members of the family) which discusses all important matters over dinner when all members are present. The veto is always with me as the head of the family and I never had to exercise it. There are times when my wife takes command of the situation and I become a soldier under her command. So as you can see the command itself changes hands occasionally.

Now your observations and my views:

1. Frankly speaking I always wondered what gives anyone the right to dictate how another person should run his/her life.

In a family the leader gets that right because of his/her position as the commander.

2. Men somehow feel they are self crowned Kings who can dictate even how a woman should lead her life.

If the woman happens to be the daughter the leader/father/mother from the position of the leader advises the daughter to behave. This is for the common good of the family and the member concerned.

3. I feel Men and Woman should not really bother each other too much by imposing rules on each other.

How much is too much? When resentment sets in prejudices play out and a friendly advice can be seen as severe interference.

4. I somehow dislike any form of Glorification of Women cos Glorification is a subtle form of subjugation. All sorts of names bordering Divinity are given to woman..which is just subjugation in another form cos woman are forced to behave according to the glorified status.

Sycophancy and glorification are two different things. Glorification has its roots in excellence and is earned while sycophancy is part of scheming and is liberally given. I do not know whether there is any other word equivalent to the tamil Mukhastuti other than sycophancy. Excellence has its own compulsions. A small digression here: While the Abrahamic religions are finding it hard to answer the question asked by womens’ lib enthusiasts as to why the God is a He and not a She, the Hindu religion has no such problem. Here God can be a He and a She.

5. I sometimes wonder why a woman is called Grihalakshmi when in an average Indian home she is always taken for granted and most of the time not dealt with respect. She is just a washing machine,cooking machine,dowry machine and a reproduction machine.

Without women a house will come to a grinding halt. She is certainly a Grihalaxmi. In many Indian homes it is she who plays the lead role. In those houses where she is taken for granted, she does not care and so things keep moving. If she starts asserting others will fall in line. In my house while the washing machine does its work after my loading it every day, my wife cooks our food and as far she is concerned it is a Yagna every day that she performs enjoying it fully. My wife did not bring a dowry though she brought with her her share of wealth which she owns even today. As for the last machine mentioned by you, well, it depends on many things. Kushwant Singh once said that for most of Indians sex was a quick ten minutes affair in total darkness. But I believe times have changed. These are times when there is a lot of demanding and conceding and innovating going on in the bedrooms of families and reproduction is finely controlled by monitoring ovulation closely.

6. After all even in Mahabharat ..Draupadi…..to not resort to Ahimsa approach in dealling with the Kauravas………It goes to show that men always felt they are one up.

Women do assert in many situations and their words are respected in many households. What do we say about that? Shall we say ..women are one up on the rebound!!
 
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Dear Renuka,

Your post #30 for reference:

(This post has become a little lengthy. Those who have poor attention span can skip and move.)

I presume you are not speaking here about men and women who live their lives separately. I also presume the context to be one in which they live together within a marriage.

When I had my military training, one cardinal principle that got ingrained in us was to remain always loyal to the command and be respectful to it under all circumstances. If a commander gave an order it was to be implicitly and explicitly obeyed because it was clearly understood that his responsibility to the nation and to our own lives was unquestionable. Thus either we moved ahead together and won a battle or if we lost the battle we all went down together.

In a family also some one has to lead. Because of age old customs the leadership role falls to the lot of husband. His role is: a husband, father and son and a brother all put together. If the family members have to progress the leader/commander has to be accepted and respected. In some families the commander's hat is donned by the wife. It all depends on who deserves to be the commander and who has the leadership qualities. One with such qualities asserts herself/himself and takes the commanders responsibility. In some families when the husband is dead the wife automatically takes the commander’s position and plays her role well. In those families in which the members fail to recognize this basic discipline for survival and progress there is always quarrel and sniping and the commander’s position is
undermined. The commander has to keep watching over his shoulders to see who from the team is going to stab him next. Such families do not go too far. They surely disintegrate and the members suffer.

In my house we have the family council( this is a convenient name we have given as it is understood well by all members of the family) which discusses all important matters over dinner when all members are present. The veto is always with me as the head of the family and I never had to exercise it. There are times when my wife takes command of the situation and I become a soldier under her command. So as you can see the command itself changes hands occasionally.

Now your observations and my views:

1. Frankly speaking I always wondered what gives anyone the right to dictate how another person should run his/her life.

In a family the leader gets that right because of his/her position as the commander.

2. Men somehow feel they are self crowned Kings who can dictate even how a woman should lead her life.

If the woman happens to be the daughter the leader/father/mother from the position of the leader advises the daughter to behave. This is for the common good of the family and the member concerned.

3. I feel Men and Woman should not really bother each other too much by imposing rules on each other.

How much is too much? When resentment sets in prejudices play out and a friendly advice can be seen as severe interference.

4. I somehow dislike any form of Glorification of Women cos Glorification is a subtle form of subjugation. All sorts of names bordering Divinity are given to woman..which is just subjugation in another form cos woman are forced to behave according to the glorified status.

Sycophancy and glorification are two different things. Glorification has its roots in excellence and is earned while sycophancy is part of scheming and is liberally given. I do not know whether there is any other word equivalent to the tamil Mukhastuti other than sycophancy. Excellence has its own compulsions. A small digression here: While the Abrahamic religions are finding it hard to answer the question asked by womens’ lib enthusiasts as to why the God is a He and not a She, the Hindu religion has no such problem. Here God can be a He and a She.

5. I sometimes wonder why a woman is called Grihalakshmi when in an average Indian home she is always taken for granted and most of the time not dealt with respect. She is just a washing machine,cooking machine,dowry machine and a reproduction machine.

Without women a house will come to a grinding halt. She is certainly a Grihalaxmi. In many Indian homes it is she who plays the lead role. In those houses where she is taken for granted, she does not care and so things keep moving. If she starts asserting others will fall in line. In my house while the washing machine does its work after my loading it every day, my wife cooks our food and as far she is concerned it is a Yagna every day that she performs enjoying it fully. My wife did not bring a dowry though she brought with her her share of wealth which she owns even today. As for the last machine mentioned by you, well, it depends on many things. Kushwant Singh once said that for most of Indians sex was a quick ten minutes affair in total darkness. But I believe times have changed. These are times when there is a lot of demanding and conceding and innovating going on in the bedrooms of families and reproduction is finely controlled by monitoring ovulation closely.

6. After all even in Mahabharat ..Draupadi…..to not resort to Ahimsa approach in dealling with the Kauravas………It goes to show that men always felt they are one up.

Women do assert in many situations and their words are respected in many households. What do we say about that? Shall we say ..women are one up on the rebound!!

LOL!

Someone told me just now..check out forum..some post by Suraju.

Why such a long post?

My attention span is too short to read all of it! Ha Ha Ha
But I get the gist of it and hence this is for you..

Om Tat Purushaya Vidmahe
Maha Senaya Dhimahi
Tannah/Tanno......Prachodayat. :hail:

All those who think like you can fill up their names in the blank space!LOL

Happy Diwali!

Tannah for those whose names start with a Hard Consonant eg names that start with the letter S.

Tanno for those whose names start with a Soft Consonant.
 
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Om Tat Purushaya Vidmahe
Maha Senaya Dhimahi
Tannah/Tanno......Prachodayat. :hail:


I read your Tannah as Tamannah first. My Sanskrit knowledge is very poor. Thanks for the new Gayatri. GayatrIm ChandasAm mAtA--it is said. But I belong to a different school of thought which believes in "Petra thaayinum aayina cheyyum" thirumanthram. Happy Diwali.
 
PrasadJi,

They wont grow up nor want to give up benefits. Thats real life. If you were given handouts/benefits will you willingly give it up? No way. I wouldn't either. Like Muslim men allowed polygamy, why on earth will they let go and give up such a priviledge. Nobody will. Only the oppressed have always fought for change. The ones who get the benefits and priviledges out of it wont. Why would they? So change will come by women.. because it suits them.

Madam,

Though I respect your views, I differ in its content. We cannot generalise these social practices which were discriminative against women.There is a reason for every social practice prevailing at a particular time, whether it is polygamy or polyandry. If we read our religious literature we come across, many of the Gods that we worship have more than one wife. Similarly we find our Rulers of the past marrying more than one woman was common. I agree that these may not fit in the modern world we live in. Today Indian women enjoy all the privileges as that of men legally. There are quite a number of National Committees instituted by the Government to safe guard their rights.

Many of the social reformers in our Country like Guru Nanak Dev, Maharshi Dayananda Saraswathi, Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Ishwarchandra Vidhyasagar, E.V.Ramaswami and others fought against injustice to women.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 
hi

When I had my military training, one cardinal principle that got ingrained in us was to remain always loyal to the command and be respectful to it under all circumstances. If a commander gave an order it was to be implicitly and explicitly obeyed because it was clearly understood that his responsibility to the nation and to our own lives was unquestionable. Thus either we moved ahead together and won a battle or if we lost the battle we all went down together.

hi sir
i had military training too...im from army and served the nation....we always remained loyal to the command and the

nation too....i agreed with u....im retired now after a long service in defence force....even i tried sometimes...but

civilian attitude/culture is entirely different ours.....ours is more disciplined.....we can 't see these discipline in civilian life..

i miss discipline in civilian life....but as a family given and take....forget and forgive.....
 
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Dear Brahmanyan,


Many of the social reformers in our Country like Guru Nanak Dev, Maharshi Dayananda Saraswathi, Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Ishwarchandra Vidhyasagar, E.V.Ramaswami and others fought against injustice to women.

To include EVR in the company of Guru Nanak, Ram Mohan Roy and Dayanand saraswathi is too much. It is terribly jarring. You don't remember a charlatan who was also a number one hypocrite along with such self-less individuals. EVR preached women's lib but married a girl fifty years younger than him. Period.
 
Madam,

Though I respect your views, I differ in its content. We cannot generalise these social practices which were discriminative against women.There is a reason for every social practice prevailing at a particular time, whether it is polygamy or polyandry. If we read our religious literature we come across, many of the Gods that we worship have more than one wife. Similarly we find our Rulers of the past marrying more than one woman was common. I agree that these may not fit in the modern world we live in. Today Indian women enjoy all the privileges as that of men legally. There are quite a number of National Committees instituted by the Government to safe guard their rights.

Many of the social reformers in our Country like Guru Nanak Dev, Maharshi Dayananda Saraswathi, Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Ishwarchandra Vidhyasagar, E.V.Ramaswami and others fought against injustice to women.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.


Very well said Shri.Brahmanyan.

There were eminent "Male" personalities who all did great job in reforming the society and safeguarding the interests of "Women"

During those old periods, only Men used to be the bread winners of the family and the wives were dedicated home makers, nurturing the whole family with their love, warmth and intelligence of domestic management. Such wives were expected to be honest/truthful and dedicated to their husband whole heartedly who bears the responsibilities of meeting the needs of the family.

Thus, such verses were established, highlighting the significance, powers and respect of such women who consider her husband as her only intimate partner and nurture the whole family. It was symbolically glorified that, with such purity of mind and body, even the nature would honor her command.

Women are always considered to have more moral and ethical goodness compared to that of Men and thus were always glorified with feminine divinity.

There is a saying in Tamil - "A women if wish can create and sustain and if don't wish can spoil and destroy ". And Men can not foil them.


As every where and for everything there exists negativity, many Men had exploited their wives and have deprived them from what they deserve. And from among the same men folk there were couple of Successful Social Reformers who could come out on the streets to carry out their revolution for women Upliftment.


Now both Men and Women are on the same pedestal. The section of the society where women are still oppressed are too on their way towards their self respect, self dignity and equal legal status. In this auspicious day of Deepavali, I pray the Goddess of all energy forms for the well being of such women as early as possible.


Legally, Socially and Professionally women are in par with men. And, needless to say, cruelness and crudeness is now no more the exclusivity of Men.


Every social structure has its pros and cons. And, in every social structure we find good men and good women.


Let us try to find the positive meaning in most valuable verses expressed by our great sages, which were very much apt for those social setups of by gone days. Such verses stands good even now BUT given the changing environment, they are often interpreted in wrong sense, condemned and any one vouching for such verses are considered cruel, selfish and dictators, at the drop of a hat.


May the light of correct knowledge and wisdom prevail among humans on this Earth!!



 
Dear Brahmanyan,




To include EVR in the company of Guru Nanak, Ram Mohan Roy and Dayanand saraswathi is too much. It is terribly jarring. You don't remember a charlatan who was also a number one hypocrite along with such self-less individuals. EVR preached women's lib but married a girl fifty years younger than him. Period.

I do not know how that >>> got this title of being a reformer. It upsets me that the word got maligned by being associated with that species.
I second your view Mr. Raju.
 
I agree with Prasad sir and Brahmanyan sir. I only felt that since Prasad Sir said that men must fight for change, that it was slightly not realistic since they have all the benefits. I completely take on board all those men who fought for change such as Raja Ram Mohan Roy. Periaval Dayananda Saraswathi etc...I was, I admit generalising.

I must agree with Suraju Sir that EVR is very very suspect. In fact a question that still bugs me till date is : How on earth as a Kannadiga he was able to gather such Tamizh mass?...someone kindly explain to me....even those telugus like vaiko etc have such popularity...(my ancestry is thiruvaiyaru telugu smartha)
 
......... How on earth as a Kannadiga he was able to gather such Tamizh mass?...someone kindly explain to me....even those telugus like vaiko etc have such popularity...
வந்தோரை வாழ வைக்கும் தமிழ்நாடு! (vandhOrai vaazha vaikkum ThamizhnAdu!) Just think of the popular film stars!

EVR is hated by many. I too do not agree with many of his views. But his idea about dress code for women was something cool.

He had suggested to simplify it for their comfort. Think of the nine yards which is difficult to wear and six yard sarees which is
a hinderance while riding on a two wheeler / while running to catch a Pallavan bus!! :ballchain:

 
If both the sides have agreed for the same in good fun way ok otherwise it is an indication of male dominance from groom side and caution for bride. Any ritual that way including eating in same plate if one from love and affection angle nothing wrong. All rituals are man made. When we have changed to having reception the previous day of marriage why not we change by cutting these hurting rituals.
 
I agree with Prasad sir and Brahmanyan sir. I only felt that since Prasad Sir said that men must fight for change, that it was slightly not realistic since they have all the benefits. I completely take on board all those men who fought for change such as Raja Ram Mohan Roy. Periaval Dayananda Saraswathi etc...I was, I admit generalising.

I must agree with Suraju Sir that EVR is very very suspect. In fact a question that still bugs me till date is : How on earth as a Kannadiga he was able to gather such Tamizh mass?...someone kindly explain to me....even those telugus like vaiko etc have such popularity...(my ancestry is thiruvaiyaru telugu smartha)

Madam,

As an octogenarian I belong to the generation which suffered most due to the emergence of Brahmin hatred spread by the Dravidian movement of EVR and his lot. But no one can deny the fact that EVR worked for the abolition of Social inequalities and propagated against discrimination of people because of sex or caste. But his methods and language drew a lot of criticism, even among his followers. As a rationalist throughout his life EVR fought for liberation of women from the clutches of age old social discriminative practices like child marriages, taboo of widowhood and remarriage, dowry,denial of property rights, Devadasi system etc. Rajaji was his life long friend and adversary.

I wish to reaffirm that my intention of including EVR was restricted to the subject matter of men who had fought
for a change, nothing more than that. As a matter of principle I do not enter into controversial topics or debates. I just share my knowledge what little I have on the subject.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 
Hi folks,

Sri Brahmanyan”s post #42 for reference:

Hitler was a German Nationalist. He was fanatic. He nursed a grudge in his mind that Germany was treated unfairly through centuries and was humiliated by the other major European countries (Marseilles treaty etc.). In his devilish mind he worked out a devilish plan to rally the people of Germany. He identified the microscopic but enterprising and prosperous community of Jews as the perfect bait. He understood that people needed a symbol and a slogan to rally around. They needed an emotion which is strong enough to bind them together. He chose hatred as the emotion. He told his people a hundred lies and a hundred truths mixed together and preached unadulterated hatred towards jews. He was successful. He could exterminate a million jews in a short span of time. Finally God decided enough is enough. We all know what happened in the end.

EVR mixed a hundred truths and a hundred lies together and sold them after adding to the concoction the masala of brahmin hatred. He thought he would become Indian Hitler. Indian society is different and so he failed to achieve what he wanted to achieve. Out of the hundred truths(along with the hundred lies) he spoke, the status of women in the society was one. He only spoke about them. Never lived up to his ideal. Gandhi and many other congress leaders of that time also spoke about social inequalities and worked hard for their removal. So what is special about EVR? While others chose the satvic ways for their struggle and were able to impress, EVR chose the devilish trick and it never worked. We have even today the Uthappurams, Vachathis, Keezhvenmonies and the latest to be added to the list is Dharmapuri.

I am not an Octogenarian like Mr. Brahmanyan, but I have seen the consequences of that one warped mind’s devilish mischief. I have heard many people say what Mr. Brahmanyan has said here. It is nothing but flippancy to add casually EVR’s name while speaking about great men who have done great things for the society; it is nothing but flippancy to say that EVR’s methods were bad but his intentions were good while those methods resulted in trashing an entire minority community crediting it with responsibility for every thing that is wrong in the society. It is like saying flippantly that Hitler was a great nationalist that Germany ever produced though his methods and language drew some criticism. Being a rationalist is just nothing. It is just like saying I am a communist or saying I am a capitalist or that I am a Fascist. I am pained to see well informed people turning so pliable to accept EVR as a “bad at times but over all good” leader. The damage is already done.

There is nothing wrong in dealing with controversies. I too would like to keep away from such discussions in internet forums. But unless some one writes a counter, these things go unchallenged and become accepted as gospel/Goebbellian truths in course of time. That is what we learn from History.

This is not an attempt to join issue and fight it out here. This is just a reaction expressed for the records here. I have respect for Sri Brahmanyan.

Cheers.
 
hi
EVR has always hot topic in TN....especially tambram....i wont think he was reformer... just like another caste hatred.....or mass

opium...........just another crap......he got mass base...i think he is fanatic... like gandhi had bitter personal experiences in

south africa...so he faught against british personal reasons....more than national interest...national interest got later stage...

may be like some personal experience of EVR ...made another caste hatred....just another political ambitions...
 
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I agree with Prasad sir and Brahmanyan sir. I only felt that since Prasad Sir said that men must fight for change, that it was slightly not realistic since they have all the benefits. I completely take on board all those men who fought for change such as Raja Ram Mohan Roy. Periaval Dayananda Saraswathi etc...I was, I admit generalising.

I must agree with Suraju Sir that EVR is very very suspect. In fact a question that still bugs me till date is : How on earth as a Kannadiga he was able to gather such Tamizh mass?...someone kindly explain to me....even those telugus like vaiko etc have such popularity...(my ancestry is thiruvaiyaru telugu smartha)

Kum. amala,

The very mention of EVR stirs a hornet's nest in this Forum, as you must definitely have observed right from the past discussions. Our dear friend Shri Nara was a supporter of EVR while I am sort of neutral, possibly because we tabras in Travancore did not have to experience any anti-brahmin crusade by EVR. But if we (or you) can forget for one moment our (your) brahmin identity and analyze the EVR phenomenon dispassionately (and this is the crucial factor, I believe), it will be clear that EVR was the centre around which all the historically pent-up abhorrence towards brahmins in the erstwhile Madras Presidency, gravitated and this made him a great leader of iconic status. There are sufficient evidences to show that but for the unyielding attitude of the brahmin leaders in the Indian National Congress, EVR who was a "Chela" of Rajaji might have died a staunch congressman and possibly a Rajaji supporter too. But history has its own course and we ordinary people cannot direct the course of history.

M.K. Gandhi, as Shri tbs has rightly put it in post #44 above , was thrown out of a train by a Britisher in SA and he (Gandhi) it seems planned to 'organize' all the Indians living there and 'to teach a lesson' to the British. Some well-wisher advised him that he would end up in this way in hard labour for life and will never see freedom again; so the well-wisher (I now forget his name) advised Gandhi to go to India and try his hand there rather than in SA. When Gandhi came to India he was just an ordinary fellow, unnoticed by the then Congress Leadership. But he gradually made his presence felt and was in a haste to teach the British a lesson. This restlessness alienated many well-meaning Congress persons (leaders) among whom Shri M.G. Ranade, who argued that the first need of India then was social upliftment, abolition of caste hierarchy and some reforms in the Hindu religious practices, and so on. But in the end Gandhi and his agenda prevailed, the press in India as also his own publications, made him an icon and the rest we all know. Well-meaning leader like Ranade went unsung and unnoticed. This too is the course of history.

Jews as a group, AFAIK, were disliked right from the historical beginnings and the jews were specially taxed even in the old Roman empire because they were 'aliens' who came as the great 'diaspora'. It was also the common perception that jews controlled the financial and trading economies which always exploited the common work force in many European countries. Hitler thought that by exterminating the Jews he would be doing the right thing for his country. But Jews had continued their migration and diaspora-like entry into the newly colonized Americas also and Hitler's anti-Jewish rule caused a good number more to escape to the Americas. These American Jews, as is their wont, came to control the finances and trades of the country (and still they do); so the USA which was situated far away, entered the war against Germany and ultimately Hitler was eradicated.

In my limited view, Gandhi, EVR, Hitler, all were personalities thrown up as mass-leaders, by history in its inexorable march. We are free to praise some of them and deride others, depending upon our pov and preferences, but history has made them all into leaders who will not be forgotten easily and quickly.
 
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Dear Suraju,

I liked your post very much.

Being a rationalist is just nothing. It is just like saying I am a communist or saying I am a capitalist or that I am a Fascist.

The point is even these terms are very loosely defined. For most people, if you agree with them, you are rational. Otherwise, you are not.

As R.L. Stevenson wrote, man is a creature who lives not by bread alone but primarily by catchwords!
 
Good comments on restoring woman's pride or her equality. Considering the periods when these practices were intiated in comparison to today's world, I think the practices are appalling. You talk about the 'namaskarams' done by bride in the course of the marriage as per some custom. But the girls were tamed to do 'namaskarams' even before a prospective alliance which may break down in further course. Nowadays people raise questions. Who are responsible? The boy's parents, the girl's parents and the outmoded shastras. The religious heads should proclaim to bar these practices, the purohits should avoid the practices, too. They are moving in cars, m'bikes and use mobile etc for convenience. The purohits have become modern to suit their convenience but cannot give that benefit to the two families. Which means they are not progressive nor thoughtful to impart the essence of marriage. Well it is all in the game of money making.
 
Sangom sir's post #45 for reference:

Gandhi, EVR, Hitler, all were personalities thrown up as mass-leaders, by history in its inexorable march. We are free to praise some of them and deride others, depending upon our pov and preferences, but history has made them all into leaders who will not be forgotten easily and quickly

There is a pettai rowdy 'A'. He is also a leader who has been thrown up by the 'masses' in the pettai, by 'history in its inexorable march'. He is a pain for the good people in the pettai who helplessly suffer him because he is a rowdy and has muscle power. He has killed a few people in broad day light and has molested many young girls in the area.There are community leaders among the good people who are, say, B, C and D. We are free to praise or deride some of them depending on 'our pov' and preferences. But they are all leaders who should not be forgotten easily and quickly.
There is nothing called what is good and bad or what is the correct pov. So A=B=C=D.

Equivocation is indeed a fine art.

Cheers.
 
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