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Vaagmi

Well-known member
This message is addressed to Shri Gopalanji

Is the Kousika Gothram different from Viswamitra Gothram. What are the Rishi pravaram for these two gothrams?.
Kindly enlighten. Thanks.
 

kgopalan

Well-known member
புத்ர பரம்பரையும் உண்டு. சீடர் பரம்பரையும் உண்டு. விசுவாமித்ர பரம்பரை ப்ரவரங்கள்.
விசுவாமித்ர தைவராத, அண்டல; தைவ ஸ்ரவஸ, தைவதரஸ; மதுசந்தஸ,தானஞ்சய; மதுசந்தஸ, ரெளஹிண; மதுசனதஸ, ஆஜ,; மதுசந்தஸ ஆஷ்டக; ஆஷ்டக,லெளகித, தைவராத, பெளரண; பெளரண; காத்ய, ஆத்கீல;ஆஶ்மரத்ய,வாதூல; ஆகமர்ஷண, கெளசிக, காதின, ரைவண்; ரெளக்ஷ, ரைவண; காதிண, வைணவ. சாலங்காயண, கெளசிக. ;ஐந்த்ர, கெளசிக. என்று தான உள்ளது.கோத்ர கர்த்தா கெளசிகர் என்று என்னிடம் இல்லை.
 

prasad1

Well-known member
This thread should not be in this section as it is a debatable topic.



There is a belief that Vishwamitra and Kaushika are same person but then why would there be two pravaras of Kaushika and Vishwamitra in same gotra?
The pravara of Kaushika gotra is " Vaiswaamitra, Aghamarshana, Koushika " and the pravara of Vishwamitra gotra is " Vaiswaamitra, Devaraata, Owtala"
Technically, Vishwamitra is also called "kaushika" because he was the descendant of Kusha.
 
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kgopalan

Well-known member
பாரதம்: பருவம்1; அத்யாயம்-43. ஜமதக்னி, பரத்வாஜர்;விசுவாமித்ரர்; அத்ரி; கெளதமர்;வஸிஷ்டர்; காஷ்யபர் அகஸ்தியர்; இந்த எட்டு பேரும் வைவஸ்வத மன்வந்திரத்திற்கு உரிய முதல் கோத்திர காரகள். எங்கிறார். பாணினி இவர்களது பேரர்களும் சில சந்ததிகளுக்கு கோத்ர காரகள் ஆயினர். எங்கிறார். தாத்தா பெயர் பேரனுக்கு வைப்பது வழக்கம். விசுவாமித்ரர் பேரனுக்கும் கெளசிகன் எனப்பெயர். பேரணும் கோத்ரகாரர் ஆகி விட்டார். அவ்வளவு தான்.

க்ஷத்ரியர்களாக இருந்து அந்தனர்களாக மாறிய இந்த பத்து பேர்களும் கோத்திர காரகள் ஆயினர். வைதஹவ்யர், மித்ரயு; கனகர்; யவனர்; ப்ருகு மரபை சார்ந்தவர்கள். ரதீதரர்; முத்கலர்;விஷ்ணுவ்ருத்தர்; கண்வர்; ஸங்குருதி அங்க்கீரஸ் மரபர் சேர்ந்தவர்கள்.

க்ஷத்ரியர்களாக் இருந்த போது மரீசீ, அத்ரி மரபை சார்ந்த இவர்கள் அந்தணர்கள் ஆகிய பிறகு ப்ருகு, அங்கிரஸ் மரபை சார்ந்தவர்கள் ஆயினர்.விசுவாமித்ரர் ப்ருஹ்ம ரிஷி ஆனார்.

ஸப்த ரிஷிகள்:- ப்ருகு, அங்கீரஸ்; மரீசி; அத்ரி; புலஹர்; புலஸ்தியர்; வஸிஷ்டர்.
புலஹர் அரக்கர்களையும், புலஸ்தியர் பிசாசுகளையும் தோற்று வித்தவர்கள் ஆவார்கள்.

வஸிஷ்டர் இறந்து பிறகு மீண்டும் மரீசீயின் மரபில் பிறந்தார்.அகஸ்தியர் மரீசி மரபில் வந்தவர்.ஜமதக்னி=ப்ருகு மரபினர்; ;பரத்வாஜர்;கெளதமர்=அங்கிரஸ் மரபினர்; அத்ரி=அத்ரி=அத்ரி மரபினர்; காஸ்யபர், வசிஷ்டர், அகஸ்தியர், =மரீசீ மரபினர்.

இந்த 18 பிரிவினர்களும் 18 குடும்பங்க்களாக கருத பட்டனர்.
 

kgopalan

Well-known member
வ்ஶ்வாமித்ரர் புரூவரின் மூன்றாம் புத்திரனும்,. -அமவஸு வம்சம்-காதிராஜனுடைய புதல்வர். இவர் வேட்டைக்கு சென்ற போது வஸிஷ்டர் ஆஶ்ரமத்தில் தங்கினார். காமதேனு உணவு அளித்தது. விசுவாமித்ரர் தவத்திற்க்கும் மேலான சக்தீல்லை என்பதை உணர்ந்தார். ப்ரும்ஹ ரிஷி, ராஜ ரிஷி பட்டம் பெற்றார்.எல்லோருக்கும் மித்ரனாக இருந்ததால் இவருக்கு விசுவாமித்ரர் என்ற பெயர் ஏற்பட்டது.
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
There is kousika Gothram and the pravaram is Vaiswaamitra, Aghamarshana, Koushika "
And there is a Viswamitra Gothram for which the pravaram is " Vaiswaamitra, Devaraata, Owtala"

Now the practical question is: Can there a marriage between a boy and a girl born in these two gothrams?
Gopalanji kindly clarify.
 

kgopalan

Well-known member
த்ரயார்ஷேய கோத்ரங்களில் ஒரு ரிஷி ஒத்திருந்தால் விவாஹம் செய்யலாம்.

ஹரித கோத்ரம்:-ஆங்க்கீரஸ அம்பரீஷ யெளவனாஶ்வ -த்ரயார்ஷேய ப்ரவரம்.

கண்வ கோத்ரம்:-ஆங்க்கீரஸ,, அஜாமிட,காண்வ -த்ரயார்ஷேய ப்ரவரம்.
ஆங்க்கீரஸ ரிஷி ஒருவரே ஒத்து உள்ளமையால் விவாஹம் செய்யலாம்.

குத்ஸ கோத்ரம்:-மாந்தாத்ரு அம்பரீஷ கெளத்ஸ-த்ரயார்ஷேய ப்ரவரம்
ஹரித கோத்ரம்:-மாந்தாத்ரு, அம்பரீஷ யெளவனாஶ்வ-த்ரயார்ஷேய ப்ரவரம்.

இங்கு மாந்தாத்ரு, அம்பரீஷ- என்ற இரு ப்ரவரம் ஒத்து வருவதால் விவாஹம் செய்யகூடாது.
ஹரித கோத்திரத்திற்கு இரண்டு விதமான ப்ரவரம் உள்ளது.
 

renuka

Well-known member
This thread should not be in this section as it is a debatable topic.



There is a belief that Vishwamitra and Kaushika are same person but then why would there be two pravaras of Kaushika and Vishwamitra in same gotra?
The pravara of Kaushika gotra is " Vaiswaamitra, Aghamarshana, Koushika " and the pravara of Vishwamitra gotra is " Vaiswaamitra, Devaraata, Owtala"
Technically, Vishwamitra is also called "kaushika" because he was the descendant of Kusha.
Dear Prasad ji..

Its ok..let it be in GD section cos it could be urgent or for an important reason or God knows why..GD is noticed more often.
 

kgopalan

Well-known member
Madam, There is nothing here to debate. kausika is viswamithra. It is correct. The Grand son of viswamithra is named as kousika. It is a usual practise in Tamil nadu. naming grand father"s name to his Grand son. Now his Grand son also have become pravara rishi and on his name kousika comes.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Madam, There is nothing here to debate. kausika is viswamithra. It is correct. The Grand son of viswamithra is named as kousika. It is a usual practise in Tamil nadu. naming grand father"s name to his Grand son. Now his Grand son also have become pravara rishi and on his name kousika comes.
Dear Sir...it wasnt me who said about debating.
It was some other member.
I think you misread the post.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Gopalan sir..
I had replied to the quote of some other member ..I think you thought its me who said it can be debated.
The new format in Forum is a bit confusing.

If you see it ..you can see its Prasad ji who wrote about debate.
 

prasad1

Well-known member
Gopalanji,
I differ to you in matters of custom or puja vidhi.
If a thread is posted wrongly in Ritual section and it needs to be pointed out, it is not appropriate in that section. If it is in the general discussion section others can participate.
As far as your (or anyone else) authority on any subject, is matter of opinion (I beg your pardon).
I do not claim to be an authority on any subject. But I have an opinion. It may or may not right for others.

I do not know how active you are in reading other posts. We have discussed Gotra many times in this forum, you can research it.

As far as one member asking your opinion in an open forum is considered that is inappropriate.
There is a PM facility provided for private conversation. I have suggested to many people who want your service.
 

prasad1

Well-known member
Madam, There is nothing here to debate. kausika is viswamithra. It is correct. The Grand son of viswamithra is named as kousika. It is a usual practise in Tamil nadu. naming grand father"s name to his Grand son. Now his Grand son also have become pravara rishi and on his name kousika comes.
Now you are GD section.

Vishvamitra was a king in ancient India, also called Kaushika (descendant of Kusha) and belonged to Amavasu Dynasty. Vishwamitra was originally the Chandravanshi (Somavanshi) King of Kanyakubja. He was a valiant warrior and the great-grandson of a great king named Kusha. Valmiki Ramayana, prose 51 of Bala Kanda, starts with the story of Vishvamitra:
There was a king named Kusha (not to be confused with Kusha, son of Rama), a brainchild of Brahma and Kusha's son was the powerful and verily righteous Kushanabha. One who is highly renowned by the name Gaadhi was the son of Kushanabha and Gaadhi's son is this great-saint of great resplendence, Vishvamitra. Vishvamitra ruled the earth and this great-resplendent king ruled the kingdom for many thousands of years.
His story also appears in various Puranas; however, with variations from Ramayana. Vishnu Purana and Harivamsha chapter 27 (dynasty of Amaavasu) of Mahabharata narrates the birth of Vishvamitra. According to Vishnu Purana,[11] Kushanabha married a damsel of Purukutsa dynasty (later called as Shatamarshana lineage - descendents of the Ikshvaku king Trasadasyu) and had a son by name Gaadhi, who had a daughter named Satyavati (not to be confused with the Satyavati of Mahabharata).

Satyavati was married to an old Brahmin known as Ruchika who was foremost among the race of Bhrigu. Ruchika desired a son having the qualities of a Brahmin and so he gave Satyavati a sacrificial offering (charu) which he had prepared to achieve this objective. He also gave Satyavati's mother another charu to make her conceive a son with the character of a Kshatriya at her request. But Satyavati's mother privately asked Satyavati to exchange her charu with her. This resulted in Satyavati's mother giving birth to Vishvamitra, son of a Kshatriya Gadhi with qualities of a Brahmin and Satyavati gave birth to Jamadagni, father of Parashurama, a Brahmin with qualities of a Kshatriya.


So how does a Kshatria produce a Brahmin clan (Gotra)?
There are many Kshatria in UP, Haryana and other places with Kausika Gotram.
I have not met any one with Viswamitra Gorthram.

The term gotra, itself, according to strict Hindu tradition, is used only for the lineages of Brahmin, Kshatriya, and Vysya families. A Gotra relates directly to the original seven or eight Rishis of the Vedas. In this sense, Lord Rama did not have a Gotra, and in rituals, his Gotra would be the Gotra of his Brahmin priest. This practice is still common today as it was in ancient times according to earliest Hindu sources. Therefore, Gotra has always been only a Brahmin lineage that descends from seven or eight rishis associated with the seven or eight stars of the Great Bear constellation as according to the original Hindu Vedic system.

While the gotras were classified initially according to nine (?) rishis, the pravaras were classified under the names of the following seven rishis:
But now there are more than a hundred Gotras.


 
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prasad1

Well-known member
In the court case "Madhavrao vs Raghavendrarao" which involved a Deshastha Brahmin couple, the German scholar Max Mueller's definition of gotra as descending from eight sages and then branching out to several families was thrown out by reputed judges of a Bombay High Court. The court called the idea of Brahmin families descending from an unbroken line of common ancestors as indicated by the names of their respective gotras "impossible to accept." The court consulted relevant Hindu texts and stressed the need for Hindu society and law to keep up with the times, emphasizing that notions of good social behavior and the general ideology of the Hindu society had changed. The court also said that the mass of material in the Hindu texts is so vast and full of contradictions that it is almost an impossible task to reduce it to order and coherence.

 

prasad1

Well-known member
Sangomji wrote:


is a mere concept and can not be proven as based on facts. At some point of time in the long history of the three higher castes of the Indian society (i.e., the Brahmana, the Kashatriya and the Vaisya) this concept of Gothram seems to have crept in, and the people "labelled" themselves, probably, as belonging to oneGothram or another. This label or Gothram-name somehow took after the names of different Rishis of yore and it was the general consensus that people belonging to the same Gothram have one common lineage. Marriage between a boy and girl of the same Gothram was, accordingly, forbidden from that point onwards.

It is relevant to note that in the Buddhist "Dasaratha Jataka", Rama and Sita are siblings who marry.

(Such sibling marriages are a common symbolic imagery in early Buddhist literature to denote purity of a dynasty. As the Buddha is supposed to have come from the Ikshvaku clan (of Rama) this symbolised his dynastic merits.)Versions of Ramayana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hence it may not be inappropriate to conclude that, upto some point of time in our long history, brother-sister marriages were not only common, but recommended and when some knowledge about the birth defects and diseases caused by such sibling marriages dawned upon the society, very strident reforms were initiated to prevent the sibling marriages thenceforth and this Gothram device became handy.

Since it is merely a label, the rules and regulations were laid down only within the context of the Dwija life-style prescribed by our Shaastras. Our Shaastras allow adoption and the adopted child takes on the Gothram of its adopter father. However, till my young age, the son given for adoption was never allowed to marry into the close relatives' circle of his original family.
 

a-TB

Well-known member
Madam, There is nothing here to debate. kausika is viswamithra. It is correct. The Grand son of viswamithra is named as kousika. It is a usual practise in Tamil nadu. naming grand father"s name to his Grand son. Now his Grand son also have become pravara rishi and on his name kousika comes.
Dear Mr Gopalan,

You like few members have been providing useful information over many years. I think you have answered a technical question fully. Your answer and the question very much belongs in the ritual section only. One person has a question and often it is in the minds of others also. In that it is valuable.

There are always debates about Gotras and some are confused which part is of debate nature and what aspects are subject to facts.

I have heard Rishi Viswamitra is same as Kausika. Your explanation that it is the name of grand son is clear.

Thank you
 

a-TB

Well-known member
Gopalanji,
I differ to you in matters of custom or puja vidhi.
If a thread is posted wrongly in Ritual section and it needs to be pointed out, it is not appropriate in that section. If it is in the general discussion section others can participate.
As far as your (or anyone else) authority on any subject, is matter of opinion (I beg your pardon).
I do not claim to be an authority on any subject. But I have an opinion. It may or may not right for others.

I do not know how active you are in reading other posts. We have discussed Gotra many times in this forum, you can research it.

As far as one member asking your opinion in an open forum is considered that is inappropriate.
There is a PM facility provided for private conversation. I have suggested to many people who want your service.
I disagree with your reasoning.

Often a member may ask a question and it is in the minds of others also. We should not stifle discussions by telling people to go the PM route. That is not good for the forum and it is really forcing a narrow view point on others.

Mr Gopalan is highly respected in the forum along with few others. I think he has answered the original question with right details
 

prasad1

Well-known member
I disagree with your reasoning.

Often a member may ask a question and it is in the minds of others also. We should not stifle discussions by telling people to go the PM route. That is not good for the forum and it is really forcing a narrow view point on others.

Mr Gopalan is highly respected in the forum along with few others. I think he has answered the original question with right details

It is just another opinion. Nothing more.

Even you are respected, so no one is not respected. People who do not respect others and try to put others down know it, and others realize it too. Others are not dumb.

If a question is in the GD sections others can participate, If it is in Ritual section then members can not propose alternative opinions, and participate.

If a private question is asked of another member by name, thereby asking only one answer it is better done by PM, one can not have a private conversation in a crowded elevator.

What was a
forced narrow viewpoint
?

I posted my opinion on the topic after it was moved to GD section.

It has become a fashion to create this group-ism among members, and try to isolate few to bully them, this schoolroom bullying does not add to the forum.
 

a-TB

Well-known member
It is just another opinion. Nothing more.

Even you are respected, so no one is not respected. People who do not respect others and try to put others down know it, and others realize it too. Others are not dumb.

If a question is in the GD sections others can participate, If it is in Ritual section then members can not propose alternative opinions, and participate.

If a private question is asked of another member by name, thereby asking only one answer it is better done by PM, one can not have a private conversation in a crowded elevator.

What was a ?

I posted my opinion on the topic after it was moved to GD section.

It has become a fashion to create this group-ism among members, and try to isolate few to bully them, this schoolroom bullying does not add to the forum.
Respect for a person is not same as respect for expertise.
For example, Mr Gopalan, Mr Iyer are experts in rituals. Mr tks is an expert on Philosophy and technology. Madam Renuka is an expert in medical field.

If there are factual differences between two experts that can be sorted out in Ritual section. Many that visit that section may not come to GD


Here at GD debates are about opinions and interpretations.
Nothing stops any of us from opening a thread, and referring to the ritual section as the basis.

When a 'well known member' asks another one for a clarification based on his expertise they both see value of the discussions for others. Such things add value to the forum and should not be stifled. That is my point.

There is no group-ism that I see. If there is a bullying that can be reported. Let us not bring extraneous information into a discussion.
 

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