• Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

In an Iyengar arangatram is Nataraja the presiding deity?

prasad1

Well-known member
I am just inquiring our learned members for their knowledge.
This is not an Iyengar- Iyer argument.
I want a Bharatnatyam arangatrum here in the USA.
The father an Iyengar (liberal), but the teacher is Tamilian from Malaysia.
The prayers and songs were about all deities, including, Shiva, Nataraja, Rama, Krishna, Devi, and Balajee.
I asked the father if praying to Natraja was allowed for an Iyengar, he just laughed it off.
I do not know any hardcore Vaisnava to ask this question.
No offense meant.
 

Raman74

New member
It is believed to have been practiced as a sacred dance by Narada, a divine sage from the Vaishnava tradition of Hinduism.

Dance and Music are referred as Art to express religious themes and spiritual ideas of Shaivism, Vaishnavism and Shakktisam

It is simple, it is Natya Sastra, it is a yoga…. a Sadhana, beyond caste, creed, colour .. in other words, a way to attain God.

Lord Shiva’s right foot stands upon the huddled dwarf, the demon Apasmara, the embodiment of ignorance!!
 
Last edited:

Janaki Jambunathan

Well-known member
I am just inquiring our learned members for their knowledge.
This is not an Iyengar- Iyer argument.
I want a Bharatnatyam arangatrum here in the USA.
The father an Iyengar (liberal), but the teacher is Tamilian from Malaysia.
The prayers and songs were about all deities, including, Shiva, Nataraja, Rama, Krishna, Devi, and Balajee.
I asked the father if praying to Natraja was allowed for an Iyengar, he just laughed it off.
I do not know any hardcore Vaisnava to ask this question.
No offense meant.
Smart solution by a Smartha - Naamam for Nataraja ! I have seen Pillaiyar adorning Namam in some temples (தும்பிக்கை ஆழ்வார்) I have no solution if it is to be Vadakalai /Thenkalai specific - The court will decide if the issue goes to court - when there is a dispute!
 

renuka

Well-known member
Very simple.

If Lord Nataraja is the architect of Bharathanatyam or Sathir, as the case may be, and if he is treated as a Saivite God, then a staunch Vaishnavite has no business to learn it. It is better he or she can switch over to other forms.
LOL!

So is Bharatanatyam Haram or Halal for a Vaishnava?
 

ekaputra

Member
The book "Light on Yoga" by B. K. S. Iyengar (unarguably the greatest Yoga teacher of his time) begins with the following prayer which I reproduce verbatim:

PRAYER
'I bow before the noblest of sages, Patanjali, who brought serenity of mind by his work on yoga, clarity of speech by his work on grammar and purity of body by his work on medicine.
I salute Adisvara (the Primeval Lord Siva) who taught first the science of Hatha Yoga-a science that stands out as a ladder for those who wish to scale the heights of Raja Yoga.'


Though he was a devout Vaishnavaite the only (form of) God addressed here is Lord Shiva as He is associated with this discipline i.e. Yoga.

I am Iyer not a Vaishnavaite but I hope the example of this great Guru (a Vaishnavaite) helps your friend decide.
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
1. Dance is just an art form. In Hindu tradition it is used as a means to pray. The Bharatnatya did not originate from Nataraj/ Shiva. It is just that Nataraj murthy is a dancing form of Shiva.

2. Vaishnavite Godheads are also known for dancing. A famous Shivite vAggeyakAra has written in Tamil ".........
உன் ஆடலைக்காணத்தில்லை அம்பலத்தரசனும் தன் ஆடலை விட்டுஇங்கு கோகுலம் வந்தான்..............." (the song starts with ஆடாது அசங்காது வா கண்ணா...). Yes, Krishna danced.

3. For a vaishnavite Shiva is not an alien creature to be shunned. It is just that it is the belief of a Vaishnava that every Devatha including Shiva is permeated by Lord Vishnu/Sriman Narayana the almighty God. And it is just that a vaishnavite worships only that almighty God and none else.

Coming back to the original question, if an Iyengar worships an entity called Shiva, he worships the Srimannarayana who is pervading that entity along with everything else in creation. Thus the Iyengar has no problem singing in praise of Shiva or Nataraja or what you want. He is happily singing the praise of his Srimannarayana in fact. For lesser other beings who split hairs this may sound like Latin.

I worship Vinayaka and Kali when they come in procession in the street. That does not mean I am violating the Iyengar's religious belief system. I pray to Srimannarayana in Vinayaka and Kali. That is all. Take it or leave it.
Renukaji, I have answered your question.
 

prasad1

Well-known member
It is whitewash (or some other wash).

Ramanujacharya's guru's guru Yamunacharya gave a detailed scripture-based argument on the subject of Vishnu's supremacy and Shiva being a Jiva in this excerpt and this excerpt from his Agama Pramanya. Also, here is what Ramanujacharya says about the practices of Shaivism in this section of his Sri Bhashya.

Because they believe that Vishnu is the God Almighty and who has been quoted in the Rig Veda.
Many of them clearly say that all other Gods are Kshudra Devatas, meaning Inferior Deities.
There is a historical reason for this aversion.

The Ruling Deity of Tamil Nadu or Chola, Pallava, Pandya kingdoms forever has been Shiva worshippers. The Alwars believed in Vishnu, but they never spoke against Shiva. When Ramanuja joined the Alwars after negating Advaita, he started preaching against any sort of worship of Shiva. King Kulottunga, got enraged and sent his soldiers to capture Ramanuja. Ramanuja fled along with some of his supporters to the neighboring Hoysala Empire, who were staunch opponents of Cholas, converted the Hoysala King Bittideva and established Sri Vaishnava sect.

Here in the USA the Vaishnava Temples, Ganesha with Namam is banished to the yard. That too because of the demands of local worshippers.
Then there are some "enlightened" brahmins who partake alcohol can not be termed orthodox brahmins either.

According to some staunch Iyyangar, they will not even enter any other than Vaishnava Temple. I have met some of them.
 

Janaki Jambunathan

Well-known member
Dance is just an art form. In Hindu tradition it is used as a means to pray.(#6)


2. Vaishnavite Godheads are also known for dancing. A famous Shivite vAggeyakAra has written in Tamil ".........
உன் ஆடலைக்காணத்தில்லை அம்பலத்தரசனும் தன் ஆடலை விட்டுஇங்கு கோகுலம் வந்தான்..............." (the song starts with ஆடாது அசங்காது வா கண்ணா...). Yes, Krishna danced.(#6)

Yes Narayana did dance - but theme may not be praying of Hindu Traditions! Mohini danced to kill! Dandia Rasa is more of தீராத விளையாட்டு பிள்ளை teen age pranks of Krishna!
 

prasad1

Well-known member
JJji,
The thread is not about dancing. You can dance without religious significance.
It is about Bharatnatyam.
 

renuka

Well-known member
1. Dance is just an art form. In Hindu tradition it is used as a means to pray. The Bharatnatya did not originate from Nataraj/ Shiva. It is just that Nataraj murthy is a dancing form of Shiva.

2. Vaishnavite Godheads are also known for dancing. A famous Shivite vAggeyakAra has written in Tamil ".........
உன் ஆடலைக்காணத்தில்லை அம்பலத்தரசனும் தன் ஆடலை விட்டுஇங்கு கோகுலம் வந்தான்..............." (the song starts with ஆடாது அசங்காது வா கண்ணா...). Yes, Krishna danced.

3. For a vaishnavite Shiva is not an alien creature to be shunned. It is just that it is the belief of a Vaishnava that every Devatha including Shiva is permeated by Lord Vishnu/Sriman Narayana the almighty God. And it is just that a vaishnavite worships only that almighty God and none else.

Coming back to the original question, if an Iyengar worships an entity called Shiva, he worships the Srimannarayana who is pervading that entity along with everything else in creation. Thus the Iyengar has no problem singing in praise of Shiva or Nataraja or what you want. He is happily singing the praise of his Srimannarayana in fact. For lesser other beings who split hairs this may sound like Latin.

I worship Vinayaka and Kali when they come in procession in the street. That does not mean I am violating the Iyengar's religious belief system. I pray to Srimannarayana in Vinayaka and Kali. That is all. Take it or leave it.
Renukaji, I have answered your question.


What kind of answer is this?????

Totally Haraaammmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

You said dance didnt originate from Shiva??? This is totally blasphemous!

Its like saying Lakshmi has nothing to do with Vishnu and so happen she is sitting at His feet.

What take it or leave it?

This type of answer is not taken neither given.

And saying that Iyengars can sing praises of Lord Shiva cos Lord Shiva worships Narayana.

OMG! Its as if Lord Shiva has to prove Himself worthy of praise to Iyengars?
Wait till He gets into Tandava..no one dare stand in front of Him!
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
It is whitewash (or some other wash).
I choose to ignore this nonsense.

Ramanujacharya's guru's guru Yamunacharya gave a detailed scripture-based argument on the subject of Vishnu's supremacy and Shiva being a Jiva in this excerpt and this excerpt from his Agama Pramanya. Also, here is what Ramanujacharya says about the practices of Shaivism in this section of his Sri Bhashya.
Poorvapaksha well told.

Because they believe that Vishnu is the God Almighty and who has been quoted in the Rig Veda.
Many of them clearly say that all other Gods are Kshudra Devatas, meaning Inferior Deities.
There is a historical reason for this aversion.
poorvapaksha well elaborated. Thanks.

The Ruling Deity of Tamil Nadu or Chola, Pallava, Pandya kingdoms forever has been Shiva worshippers. The Alwars believed in Vishnu, but they never spoke against Shiva. When Ramanuja joined the Alwars after negating Advaita, he started preaching against any sort of worship of Shiva. King Kulottunga, got enraged and sent his soldiers to capture Ramanuja. Ramanuja fled along with some of his supporters to the neighboring Hoysala Empire, who were staunch opponents of Cholas, converted the Hoysala King Bittideva and established Sri Vaishnava sect.
Half truths without any basis.

I as the poorvapakshi just said briefly in my post whatever you have elaborated above. There can not be multiple gods. God is just one whether he is called Vishnu, Shiva, Allah or Father. Vaishnavites have reasons to believe that God is Srimannarayana as they believe in Vedas as the authority in such matters.

So I as a vaishnavite believe that Srimannarayana spoken about in Vedas is the one and only God and that he permiates in every thing whether sat or chit. So when a Sat called Shiva is considered as God by you I have no objection and am ready, as a vaihnavite to worship the Vishnu(Srimannarayana) in that Shiva. Vishnu is everywhere even in your Shiva. This is my point and said just this in my post.

Here in the USA the Vaishnava Temples, Ganesha with Namam is banished to the yard. That too because of the demands of local worshippers.
As another member mentioned, Ganesha is called Thumbikkai Azhvar because anyone who is deeply immersed in the God entity is called Azhwar. So Ganesha becomes worshipable like other Azhwars in the temple as they are all enlightened souls. If you want to build a separate temple to that Thumbikkai Azhwar and worship him do it. Dont come to the Vishnu temple and complain. Even that Azhwar may not forgive for that blasphemous indiscretion on your part.

Then there are some "enlightened" brahmins who partake alcohol can not be termed orthodox brahmins either.
I do not understand the context in which this is said by you. Please elaborate.

According to some staunch Iyyangar, they will not even enter any other than Vaishnava Temple. I have met some of them.
Yes because they want to worship only Vishnu. Neither can you expect a John Thomas or a Khursheed Ahmad to worship in your community's Shiva temple.
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
What kind of answer is this?????

Totally Haraaammmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

You said dance didnt originate from Shiva??? This is totally blasphemous!

Its like saying Lakshmi has nothing to do with Vishnu and so happen she is sitting at His feet.

What take it or leave it?

This type of answer is not taken neither given.

And saying that Iyengars can sing praises of Lord Shiva cos Lord Shiva worships Narayana.

OMG! Its as if Lord Shiva has to prove Himself worthy of praise to Iyengars?
Wait till He gets into Tandava..no one dare stand in front of Him!
LOL. I enjoyed reading that post.
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
Few points, clarifications from a religious and historical perspective.

First off, Iyengars already worship all gods like shaivaites as part of the Veda mantrams, including Rudran, except that they believe Vishnu is supreme as propounded by ramanujacharyar. Iyengars place primacy to the Vedas like we Iyers do and like all Hindus do. So they worship Prajapati, Indran, Suryan, Vayu, Varunan, etc..remember Anjaneyar is Shivan avataram.

So the divide is only specific to Shivan vs Vishnu supremacy, And this is rooted in some shaivaite ancient kings who persecuted the Vaishnavas.

Hence there is no restrictions for Iyengars to worship Natarajar for the arangetram.
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
The fight on supremacy was more based on political persecution by shaivaite kings of the Vaishnavas. And it spilled over to the religious side.

For eg, you will often hear the belief that by worshipping Shivan, you can mitigate the ill effects of shaneeswaran, lsimilar beiliefs on the Vaishnavites that Narayana can mitigate the ill effects. Many Puranas lend support to such beliefs.

Overtime, this has snowballed into a major divide. However, at the end of the day, all hindus place primacy on Vedas and thereoff worship all gods.
 

renuka

Well-known member
When we die..we become Shava(corpse) then we become Bhasma(ashes).
No one becomes Shanka, Cakra,Gadha,,Padma upon death.
So realize Shiva before we become a Shava.
 
its absolute parochialisim Lord Shiva is the Embodiment of the art of Dance as you can see the posture of Lord Nataraja. He is be ALL & End All. An appeal to both Iyer & Iyengar groups to shed the on-up-manship game & move forward & lets show our Solidarity and take Sanathan Dharma to great new heights. As some one pointed out OOthukads Krishna songs
ஆடாது அசங்காது வா

ஆடலைக் காணதில்லை – அம்பலத்திறைவனும் தன்
ஆடலை விட்டு இங்கே கோகுலம் வந்தான்
ஆதலினால் சிறுயாதவனே – ஒரு மாமயிலிறகணி மாதவனே நீ (ஆடாது)

lets burry the difernces and move forward even for fun lets not indulge in separatisim. my ernest request
 

Follow Tamil Brahmins on Social Media

Latest posts

Top