Human Liberation - Men's and Women's Lib

[tks]

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This thread is motivated by a discussion here

Unless one begins to experience a minimal sense of self security it is not possible to treat other beings including human beings as manifestation of Isvara.

A sense of self security leads to a sense of inner freedom which allows one to not put others in a cage especially if they belong to another 'class' - be it caste, gender, sexual orientation, race, national origin and location.

It is a human tendency to put down others for the 'class' they belong on which they had no control over at birth. This blame actually puts them in a cage in our mind and more importantly puts our own self in a cage.

It is not that we are magnanimous in thinking that we belong to a 'superior class' - be it caste or race or gender - and that we grant what we think is a 'lower class' the privilege of 'feeling equal' to us. That is actually an expression of ignorance.

Indeed it is our own self-growth and maturity that enables to realize that putting down others is actually putting down ourselves.

In this thread my intent is to examine the topic of trying to achieve self liberation which is synonymous and consistent with the idea of so called 'women's lib' that some have passionately made disparaging comments about. It is not a women's issue and it has nothing to do with some so called (militant) feminists.

I think Dr Renu expressed this so well in this post

"I only want equal legal, socio-economic and religious rights for both male and females.

At an individual level no 2 humans can be equal as in a carbon copy of each other in thought words and deeds..so there is bound to be some difference either for the good or for the bad.

Even though I might have views that can at times seem outlandish or even radical but I can safely say I am NOT a feminist.

Feminist are no different from Male Chauvinist..both are forms of gender biased terrorism."


There are many aspects to understanding the topic of human liberation with focus on women's liberation - copied from this post and edited.

1. Women's lib is not a western notion (and it is about human liberation) - Will provide 'Hindu view' for want of a better term (as I understand it) even if millions of Hindus may not practice it.

2. It is not about both men and women doing the same thing everywhere competing at every place. That is destructive to families and in that sense I agree that the issue is not well understood

3. It is really not about dress and what people wear.

4. It is about mutual respect that is needed to sustain humanity.

5. In that sense the topic women's right is no different than rights of people from all walks of life regardless of their caste, race, national origin, religion and sexual orientation (which they have no control over).

6. A woman who feels the inner freedom and feels liberated from stereotype putdowns is actually a great human being to be with just like a man who feels inner freedom and feels liberated is unlikely to discount or put down others.

7. By not putting down others these people show maturity in how they relate to others and help themselves to lead a more conflict free life.

I welcome members to comment and share their views.

 

[renuka]

If we see stories in our Puranas..we seldom see door mat type of females.

Even though Seeta is always seen and the all suffering with forbearing types but at she handled 2 controversial males well.

Firstly she handled Ravana well and knew her rights.

Secondly she did not accept Rama's second suggestion of an Agni Pariksha to take her back after Luv and Kush met Rama.

She told him to "get lost" and she went back into the earth.

So I would say Sita knew her rights and she did not want to be made a fool off again and again.

Then we have Draupadi..she questioned Yudhisthira's decision of putting her as betting stake in the game of dice.

Even after they got exiled she never failed to voice her opinion and dissatisfaction openly to Yudhisthira and was the driving force to get back at the Kauravas.


Then we have Ahalya who not afraid to explore her sensuality.

We have Maitreyi who corrected Yajnavalkya when he was walking in the forest and covered gems on the ground with earth so that she wont see it and only to ask him why he still sees the differences between gems and earth.

We also have Renuka Devi(Parashurams mother) who did not stop herself in admiring a handsome Gandharva.

Then we also have Mayavati who was married to different person but after bringing up Pradyumna(son of Krishna) and got back the memory that she was Rati and Pradyumna was Kama Deva...she left her husband for a much younger Pradyumna.


So going by all these stories..I dont think any women's lib can match!LOL

 

[tks]

Equality of women and men is taught in our scriptures

Taken from the OP:

item 1. Women's lib is not a western notion (and it is about human liberation) - Will provide 'Hindu view' for want of a better term (as I understand it) even if millions of Hindus may not practice it.

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In post #2 Dr Renu has provided nice examples of independent thinking women characters in our great Epics and Puranas.

Regardless of what one thinks oneself to be - a Theist (popularly understood as believing in 'God') or Atheist (Not believing in a 'God) or someone who neither believes nor disbelieves (like me ) - we all can be intrigued that the Hindu forms of worship includes both male and female forms.

Almost all religious traditions including the biblical religions that dominates the world, the idea of worshipping a female form is an alien concept. Catholics may have 'promoted' Mary (mother of Jesus) to a God-like status but the worship to her is not with the same reverence. In any case the Bible does not support this.

What the ancient Rishis recognized was that a male aspect cannot exist without a female aspect and vice versa and both are needed for any manifestation that appears as a creation.

In the Sankhya school of thought creation is thought of as a union of Purusha (Male principle) and Prakruthi (Female principle). Purusha symbolized as pure consciousness and Prakruthi is associated with power and creativity of nature. Purusha (Consciousness) in a body (nature and prakriti) is a living being and is always androgynous.

This fundamental equality of genders is symbolically portrayed in temples where the deity of Isvara is worshipped in the form of Ardhanarisvara.

Shiva without Shakthi is a Shava (dead body) and Shakthi has no existence without Shiva.

This thinking is uniquely Hindu thinking in my view.

In Mahabharatha (and in Bhagavad Gita in particular) Arjuna is often referred as Kounteya or Kunthi Puthra (as son of his mother) as opposed to reference only to his father Pandu.

We hail from the land that teaches the world equality of genders. When any societal practices begin to put any one gender down there is a downfall in the making for both genders.

A women's lib even in today's society is not possible without a men's lib. If women were put down and oppressed by the society the men are also oppressed in different areas.

We can examine these and other fundamental aspects in others posts.

 

[sarang]

There was one IITM professor, Dr. Seshadri I think, was trying to develope a unified theory of shiva-shakti principle - static and dynamic. Voltage-current, pressure-flow, potential-kinetic and such duel principles which coexist.

 

[tks]

There was one IITM professor, Dr. Seshadri I think, was trying to develope a unified theory of shiva-shakti principle - static and dynamic. Voltage-current, pressure-flow, potential-kinetic and such duel principles which coexist.

Thanks for sharing that.

A universal principle will find applications in many areas including in physical sciences.

In my view it is more interesting to see applicability in self growth and maturity for example.

One of Steven Covey's 7-Habits of highly successful people is to 'Be proactive'

He makes a strong case that human beings are inherently proactive - it is all the conditioning and insecurity that makes us reactive and be controlled (to paraphrase his extensive writings on this topic).

However he is only half right with the application of the Shiva-Shakti principle

Proactive (and finding responses) is actually associated with male principle.

This cannot exist by itself without a conjugate female principle which would be 'Be accepting of a situation'

This means we cannot move forward without accepting reality and the universal laws that control the situation at any moment. It is only by acceptance of a situation that we move forward.

Let me illustrate the above with a 'tongue in cheek' comment

Let us say we have a member or two who get really ticked off with other members or a moderator ruling (disclaimer: this does not apply to anyone here and any coincidence if interpreted is unintentional)

They threaten to leave the forum (proactive)...
They threaten more (proactive)
They are absent for a while (proactive) but silently read messages itching to get back (helpless)
They reincarnate with a new Avatar (Proactive)
Again get annoyed and boycott for a while (Proactive)
Then realize that people are actually friendly and do not hold grudge (acceptance)
They realize moderators are doing a tough job (acceptance)
They come back realizing that it is not worth getting annoyed too quickly (proactive)
They are welcomed and feel important - desired result !

In the above example acceptance is key to being proactive that provides growth and maturity