How to arrest the slide in TB numbers

[vgane]

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In the last discussions on the state of TB community "A Tamil Brahmin dilemma" started by Shri Krish44 we just saw the TB numbers..On a sample of 257 marriages in the last 10 years 26.1% are marrying IC & IR ..More than every forth guy is marrying outside the community (we had left out Iyer/Iyengar/Madhwa/Telugu Brahmin/Namboodiri inter mixing out of purview )

TKS did give some wonderful suggestions in his post....But the thread got diluted & as usual the discussions went astray...In order to get a wider response & bring back focus I am starting a separate thread..

On a personal one to one a member gave some revolutionary ideas which I would like the member to share himself

A few that I have thought are summarized below:

Where?

1. The most vulnerable areas in terms of culture dilution, IC & IR are outside TN especially, Bengaluru, Mumbai, Delhi …The community is in large number but is not cohesive and is directionless…It is a free for all and this has to be arrested.


2. We need to protect our turf in TN too be it Chennai, Trichy, Kumbakonam or Madurai

How?

1. We need to imbibe our Brahmin culture, traditions and customs from the age of 8. Let us inculcate study of Tamil & Sanskrit for our youngsters

2. Let us study in colleges that do not bear an iota of ill will towards Brahmins and instead respect our culture & traditions..If they are private colleges so be it..Let us spend our money in PSBB's & Sastra's rather than Don bosco's

3.. As shared earlier we need to support couples to have atleast 3 kids if we have to survive extinction. The rich people have to support the poor and lower middle class to ensure that the kids have proper education

4. Those couples without kids should adopt those with more than 3 kids

5. Childless TB couples should go in for IVF or other forms including surrogacy

6. With the spread of information at lightning speed we need to coach and guide our adolescents and young adult brethren so that they do not sway on wrong path. To be facilitated by mentors

7. In order to curtail the IC & IR marriages which have come as a death knell to our community we need to identify our community members from the age of 16 /18 years to mould them as responsible community members. We can classify their needs as traditional, modern & liberal and based on that we can create opportunities for dating. This will ensure that our members do not cross the community borders & step into alien tradition or culture. This will be facilitated by seniors who will guide them till they shoulder the responsibility of marriage

8.We need to protect our Agraharams that have lost the sheen & fallen prey to Brahmin migration..We need to buy atleast 1 house in our Agraharam and nurture it..If possible let us modernize the houses with good facilities ..We should take our children & grand children to our Agraharams..Like TKSji said we need to make them eat on Banyan leaf, participate in Brahmin functions & learn slokas

9. We need to get our girls married by 22/23 years and boys by 25/27 years

10. Our target has to be youth in all our actions who have to be guided to successful familyhood & parenthood

When?

Rightaway..Let us not brook any delay in this

 

[renuka]

How?

1. We need to imbibe our Brahmin culture, traditions and customs from the age of 8. Let us inculcate study of Tamil & Sanskrit for our youngsters

2. Let us study in colleges that do not bear an iota of ill will towards Brahmins and instead respect our culture & traditions..If they are private colleges so be it..Let us spend our money in PSBB's & Sastra's rather than Don bosco's

3.. As shared earlier we need to support couples to have atleast 3 kids if we have to survive extinction. The rich people have to support the poor and lower middle class to ensure that the kids have proper education

4. Those couples without kids should adopt those with more than 3 kids

5. Childless TB couples should go in for IVF or other forms including surrogacy

6. With the spread of information at lightning speed we need to coach and guide our adolescents and young adult brethren so that they do not sway on wrong path. To be facilitated by mentors

7. In order to curtail the IC & IR marriages which have come as a death knell to our community we need to identify our community members from the age of 16 /18 years to mould them as responsible community members. We can classify their needs as traditional, modern & liberal and based on that we can create opportunities for dating. This will ensure that our members do not cross the community borders & step into alien tradition or culture. This will be facilitated by seniors who will guide them till they shoulder the responsibility of marriage

8.We need to protect our Agraharams that have lost the sheen & fallen prey to Brahmin migration..We need to buy atleast 1 house in our Agraharam and nurture it..If possible let us modernize the houses with good facilities ..We should take our children & grand children to our Agraharams..Like TKSji said we need to make them eat on Banyan leaf, participate in Brahmin functions & learn slokas

9. We need to get our girls married by 22/23 years and boys by 25/27 years

10. Our target has to be youth in all our actions who have to be guided to successful familyhood & parenthood

When?

Rightaway..Let us not brook any delay in this

Thatastu.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Vgane,

Unless TB girls and TB boys begin to believe in scriptures it is difficult to put any plan into action.

 

[krish44]

Post #1 looks like a political partys ten point program. We can start a brahmin bachao campaign as otherwise it might head towards extinction.

Like all reports with bullet points for action, I can take only some which suit me as govt agencies do when any committee they constitute give their report
Point wise comment

!.I have no belief in indoctrination of any child. What they naturally learn by living with their parents and relatives is good enough.If they happen to learn tamil nice.

2.I have got great respect for these institutions. Choose boys from PSBB and girls from sastra for matrimonial alliances. I chose Sastra for bride hunt as they have maximum number

of educated brahmin girls. They are open minded enough to get married to TB boys in metro cities.As for PSBB boys , Vgane sir is already married.

3to5.As for 3 child idea, our young women will stone vgane ji. Adoption is not a bad option. If they are from other communities , the number of brahmins will increase.

6.We can leave our youngsters alone. If boys get brahmin girls, they will hardly refuse. But girls?. Our boys an be taught social skills to make them more appealing to

TB girls.Some coaching can help .

7.We can definitely mould them regarding dating brahmin girls.Boys should not expect TB girls to imitate or be a clone of last generation women in talk , habits and behaviour.

8I am all for brahmins buying land in agraharam and building houses or restoring them if they have one. They can be as nice as chettiar homes in chettinad.

9.I like this thought. I believe in catching them young. both my children boy and girl got married before 25 years.

10.Our target is other brahmin families and the boy and girl there. Once they are hooked for our children , leave them alone to live their lives. They will retain

whatever of brahmin culture they require to transact modern living and reject some which they feel are outmoded and irrelevant.

 

[asadu]

In the last discussions on the state of TB community "A Tamil Brahmin dilemma" started by Shri Krish44 we just saw the TB numbers..On a sample of 257 marriages in the last 10 years 26.1% are marrying IC & IR ..More than every forth guy is marrying outside the community (we had left out Iyer/Iyengar/Madhwa/Telugu Brahmin/Namboodiri inter mixing out of purview )

TKS did give some wonderful suggestions in his post....But the thread got diluted & as usual the discussions went astray...In order to get a wider response & bring back focus I am starting a separate thread..

On a personal one to one a member gave some revolutionary ideas which I would like the member to share himself

A few that I have thought are summarized below:

Totally agreed sir. Good suggestions, practical and purposeful.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Vgane,

I know you and many others are alarmed at the rate TB culture is diminishing. I think it is time to have a logical and pragmatic approach. Logical because we cannot totally abandon our culture , pragmatic because we need to move in accordance with times in certain aspects.

We cannot insist on maintaining everything in its pristine form. There should be honing also. The globe is becoming a science and technology driven place. We need to understand that the drivers of these such as the western powers would never give up this way of progress. They genuinely believe in it. The influence of such powers being strong and widespread let us be realistic about the future course of path for the TB community.

I would siuggest the following:

1. We need to stop being casteist We need to truly believe in our philosophy that everybody is inherently divine and stop looking down upon other castes

2.We need to adopt a broader outlook than the varna system which is separating people according to their levels of spirituality.
The finer divisions which the varna system used could give way to just two divisions being spiritual and materialistic considering the current scenario with no presumptions of superiority or inferiority.

3. No birth based spirituality. Spirituality should be seen as something which at least half of the population can imbibe naturally. We need to embrace all those who are inclined to follow spiritual values. The remaining in my belief have a different dna and at best will comply only in behaviour.

4. Initiatives should be undertaken to spread awareness of spirituality and the atmosphere to practice it. TBs can play a major role in this regard given their background.

5. All those who are embraced under the spiritual groups should have the same privileges granted to brahmins and should be considered as one community.

By doing the above and may be more which other members may suggest we can be true to the values and yet be practical.

 

[GANESH65]

In a broader prospective, the 10 point program suggested by vgane ji sounds good but would not be easy to practice. we are still a long way away from surrogacy and adoption ( May be some of us would be ready to accept in Metros/or settled outside India). The average mentality of the TBs settled within in India is not that broad. The suggestion to marry of girls by 22-23 would also not seems to be practical as their studies will not be completed by that time. Most of the girls opts for PG and MBA or the like which takes them beyond 24-25 by the time they agrees for marriage. No parents would like to have age difference between the girl and boy for more than 3 years now a days. As such a well settled boy ( as every one would expect) would be difficult find for that age group girls. But again, we should begin some where, the sooner the better.

Another important factor comes to my mind which may be a reason for girls of our community to look elsewhere for partners, is the demands of dowry by parents of prospective grooms. We all know this but consider to ignore unfortunately. The demands begin with a decent marriage supplemented by demands of gold sovereigns, silver ornaments, other house hold items, cash, pattu pudavais and what not. It doesn't end once the marriage is over. Then the "Pandigais" start coming. Aadi, Diwali, Kaarthigai, Pongal fulfillment of the demands on such occasions are a real harassment. This issue was to be discussed with you Vgane ji last time, some how missed out. I have seen this happening in families near me. Along with motivating our girls to marry within the community, we should also address to the issues mentioned above so reduce its menace. Vganeji, we may also stick to our shodasha samskaras and ensure that they are being taken care of well in our house holds. Out of 16, very few(only those unavoidable) are being held in our community. The reasons may be the inability to find suitable ritwiks to conduct such rituals, the laxity of funds, and of course the man power and suitable place to conduct such type of functions. In case we take it as a challenge and offer community help, this could be checked to a great level. For example, Upanayanam now is not only a costly affair (in case want to conduct individually) but also requires a lot of physical efforts for making arrangements. To find out a suitable place for conducting this ritual is also is a major problem. We are organizing Samshti Upanayanam on annual basis to over come this difficulty and by Gods grace, it has be come a grand success so far. What I mean to say is we should make our children understand the importance of our culture, and its sanctity which will automatically guide them to understand the values of our community and would force them to stay within. In the Parashar Smruti it is said, "Just as a picture is painted with various colors, so the character of a person is formed by undergoing various samskaras." This way our ancestors realized the need of consciously guiding and molding the character of individuals, instead of letting them grow in a haphazard manner.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

The original division of people was based or vaRnAs - depending on their prescribed duties rather than on their caste.

A Brahmana was supposed to learn, teach, perform karmas and poojas and receive daanam (without hoarding money or indulging in forbidden things) and lead a simple and pious life.

A Kshatriya was supposed to defend his country and the people living in it.

The Vaisyas looked after all kinds of business and the soodraas served the other varNas.

With the passing of time varNas got mixed up with castes slowly and surely.

Now we can boast neither about our caste nor about our varNa.

With the mixing up of all kinds of chores and duties among all varNas, everything has become chaotic.

Keeping the varNa in mind rather than the caste, I still find that there is some order in the weddings that take place including I. C, I. R and International weddings.

The highly educated boy marries an equally highly educated girl.

A successful business man weds a girl from a family equally successful in business.

Doctors marry doctors, professors marry professors, military people marry the members of the military families and those who do physical labor wed people employed similarly.

Not one caste can claim to have preserved the true definition of its varNa.

Not one varNa can claim to have preserved its prescribed duties.

When the whole world is shrinking faster than the universe can expand,

why all this fuss about Brahmins' number sliding and what if really does?

Show me one true Brahmin today and I will saute you before I salute that rare specimen of a Brahmin.

It is high time we come to terms with reality and become citizens of the world breaking away the boundaries of caste, creed, sects, sub sects, languages, city, country, nation, religion etc.

Isn't is too much EXPECT that boys and girls meet one another, study together, work together, travel together but NOT fall in love at a period of their life - when hormones and pheromones literally rule over them ?

 

[krish44]

ref#7 of ganeshji above above.

It is wise to delink education, job and marriage if youngsters have to marry young.

It may be possible to marry for youngsters , one studying and other with a job . Girl studying and boy working is a better combination ,


It is much easier for such couples to adjust to each other and the family they get into. as they are young and can be easily moulded to fit anywhere..

Also days of dowry are over. If one gets a decent girl one should be thankful and not insist on jewellery and ostentatious marriage. If there is money available it can be

given to marrying couple to set up their homes. They would welcome it.

What I have written is what I have practised. I can assure you it is not all difficult to find a suitable match if only parents would show some understanding

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

இது தொடரும் கதை இன்று!

கழுத்தில் ருத்திராக்ஷ கொட்டை,
நெற்றியில் திருநீற்றுப் பட்டை;

தலையில் அரைவட்டக் குடுமி,
இடுப்பில் தட்டு சுற்று வேட்டி எனக்

கட்டுப்பாடுடன் வளர்த்த போதிலும்,
வெட்டிக் கொண்டு போய்விடுவான் :bolt:

விதி வசமாக ஒரு அழகிய மதிமுக
முகமதியப் பெண்ணைக் கண்டவுடன்!

 

[krish44]

REF post #8 VRji

I like the last two lines of your post

It is indeed an idealists dream that two people can just relate to each other based on love and marrying without considering any other aspect

If boy and girl can work ,study or travel together, why not get to know atleast one of the opposite sex and if suitable marry. Such relationships based on friendships can

be more lasting.

I buy your view.

Not many will agree with us.

 

[renuka]

Show me one true Brahmin today and I will saute you before I salute that rare specimen of a Brahmin.

Dear VR ji,

I think I have met one such Brahmin.

Opposite the hotel I usually stay in when I vist Blore...there is a small temple shrine run by a Kannada Brahmin father and son.

Its a very small temple.

So when I go there I usually visit the shrine.

Usually everyone places the dakshina on the plate which the priests holds for us after giving us arti and chandan.

Mostly people put 1 rupee coins.

Since I only sometimes go to Blore I usually put a good amount of cash as dakshina.

One time I placed a big note and the wind was blowing strongly.

I was kind of wondering if the money would be blown away and was hoping the priest would place a 1 rupee coin on it to prevent the note from being blown off.

But he did not...he just placed the tray in its usual place and the note was almost going to get blown off yet he did not place anything over it.

Then I realized that it was me who was looking at the value of the note but the priest was just thinking of it as a dakshina..he did not seem to see the difference between a bigger note and a 1 rupee coin.

I guess he is a true Brahmin.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

REF post #8 VRji

I like the last two lines of your post

It is indeed an idealists dream that two people can just relate to each other based on love and marrying without considering any other aspect

If boy and girl can work ,study or travel together, why not get to know atleast one of the opposite sex and if suitable marry. Such relationships based on friendships can

be more lasting.

I buy your view.

Not many will agree with us.

dear sir,

We must come to term with reality and not live in a land of fantasy all our lives!

If parents want absolute control over their children we must go back to the days

of Baalya vivah and keep the girls and women safe inside the house as in the distant past.

Law of attraction we study in Physics holds good in human relationship also.

Closer the physical bodies are placed, larger will be the attraction between them..

Farther the physical bodies are placed the attraction reduces fast -

depending inversely on the square of the distance separating them!

It is unlikely that when meet some one everyday and not start liking him /her.

There is goodness and beauty in everyone and one can easily locate it.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear VR ji,

I think I have met one such Brahmin.

Opposite the hotel I usually stay in when I vist Blore...there is a small temple shrine run by a Kannada Brahmin father and son.

Its a very small temple.

So when I go there I usually visit the shrine.

Usually everyone places the dakshina on the plate which the priests holds for us after giving us arti and chandan.

Mostly people put 1 rupee coins.

Since I only sometimes go to Blore I usually put a good amount of cash as dakshina.

One time I placed a big note and the wind was blowing strongly.

I was kind of wondering if the money would be blown away and was hoping the priest would place a 1 rupee coin on it to prevent the note from being blown off.

But he did not...he just placed the tray in its usual place and the note was almost going to get blown off yet he did not place anything over it.

Then I realized that it was me who was looking at the value of the note but the priest was just thinking of it as a dakshina..he did not seem to see the difference between a bigger note and a 1 rupee coin.

I guess he is a true Brahmin.

Dear Renu,
Before giving my opinion and the promised salute, I want to make sure that the priest was not visually impaired! OR May be he got dazed wondering about the best use for this windfall!

 

[yesmohan]

Thank you very much Vagne Ji for bringing out a set of good suggestions.

In TB functions, we need not preach them but casually suggest these to fellow TBs who are interested in hearing.

 

[tbs]

hi

we can control TB boys easily,.....controlling TB gals very tough/hard now a days....

 

[renuka]

hi

we can control TB boys easily,.....controlling TB gals very tough/hard now a days....

From what I can make out by hanging around forum for sometime is..the TB woman is under tremendous amount of pressure to conform to the expectations of males that want a working wife who would still stick to out-dated traditions.

I feel one of the reasons why TB gals are marrying Non TB guys is becos they want some breathing space to not be bogged down by too much ritualistic expectations.

TB males should get real.

Firstly TB guys should get make over..move with times. One should not look too studious.Need to look more macho.

One can be modern yet have moral values.

Also male should give females some freedom to be themselves and nothing is really lost if a person is not all that traditional.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,
Before giving my opinion and the promised salute, I want to make sure that the priest was not visually impaired! OR May be he got dazed wondering about the best use for this windfall!

Dear VR ji,

He looks like a simple dedicated person.

 

[krish44]

From what I can make out by hanging around forum for sometime is..the TB woman is under tremendous amount of pressure to conform to the expectations of males that want a working wife who would still stick to out-dated traditions.

I feel one of the reasons why TB gals are marrying Non TB guys is becos they want some breathing space to not be bogged down by too much ritualistic expectations.

TB males should get real.

Firstly TB guys should get make over..move with times. One should not look too studious.Need to look more macho.

One can be modern yet have moral values.

Also male should give females some freedom to be themselves and nothing is really lost if a person is not all that traditional.

For a young married female with a career to be free, It takes a huge support system consisting of cooks ,maid for cleaning ,washing clothes. driver for cars to take

them to work place and return, her parents and inlaws to take care of her children. If these are fulfilled , these girls can truly enjoy their freedom. In addition their

husbands should not shoot off their mouth making comments on their attire and truly respect them{Falsely praise them for their looks and capability would be really

appreciated].

Traditions -these are tools to subjugate modern working girls and make them party to perform meaningless rituals drawing on their energy which is mostly a waste.

TB guys -ha ha- make over and macho are dreams which even TB girls do not have.It requires a thinker from abroad to even contemplate such things.

Morality? this is just an excuse to suppress freedom and free thinking. Traditionally morals have been used to put down some girls who refuse to toe the line

 

[sravna]

Traditions -these are tools to subjugate modern working girls and make them party to perform meaningless rituals drawing on their energy which is mostly a waste.

TB guys -ha ha- make over and macho are dreams which even TB girls do not have.It requires a thinker from abroad to even contemplate such things.
Morality? this is just an excuse to suppress freedom and free thinking. Traditionally morals have been used to put down some girls who refuse to toe the line

Tradition is not used to subjugate the women but the impulsive forces which arise because of the stressful and tempting environment they are in now.

If freedom is financial freedom and free thinking is not listening to others , I do not think they serve their purpose. Financial freedom is a very limited form of freedom where the freedom is spending the way you like but people seldom realize that the money imprisons you. Unless you are wise in your ways I think it seldom gives the type of happiness you envision it would. But if you are that wise enough you know to be free without financial freedom.

There is no short cut or substitute for wisdom.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

I am sure a woman wants the freedom to plan her life and choose her life partner more than

any financial freedom or physical freedom to move around freely and safely by herself!

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear VR ji,

He looks like a simple dedicated person.

Dear Renu,
Then I salute you and him in that order! :hail:
Note to the males who JUST want to dominate their family...
Any mindless suppression will lead to depression and a revolution.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Nature gives them the urgency by ruling over them through hormones.

Life style gives them the opportunity to meet, greet, tweet and select. :hug:

YET parents are surprised when their wards select their own life partners!!! :wacko:

I think there can be nothing more surprising than these surprised parents!!!

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,
Then I salute you and him in that order! :hail:
Note to the males who JUST want to dominate their family...
Any mindless suppression will lead to depression and a revolution.

Dear VR ji,

LOL!

 

[krish44]

Talking of slide in TB numbers , for the first time someone in facebook has come out with actual numbers of brahmins inall states in india

Some excerpts

Brahmin numbers

! UP -2crores

2 Bihar-98 lakhs

3.MP-42 lakhs

4 Gujarat-60 lakhs

5. maharashtra-45 lakhs

6.karnataka-45 lakhs

7. A.P- 24 lakhs

8.Kerala-12lakhs

9. tamilnadu-30lakhs

10-north east -negligible

11. odisha-37 lakhs

12 JandK 2to 4 lakhs left state

Maximum brahmins employed in west bengal govt.

Max. percentage brahmin population in state -uttarkhand with 20%

Maxm literate brahmins are in kerala and himachal.

Maxm no of produced CM s is rajasthan

All this talk of brahmins dwindling may not be fully correct

.

Courtesy -facebook Jegan Ptk Ramanujadasan and parameswaran PG

Forwarded to my email.by someone






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