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Grounding in holistic knowledge and Original solutions for Practical Problems

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sangom

Well-known member
Dear Sangom ji,

I agree..that is why I said in my earlier post that one has to just Be and no need to Become.

To Become is what you had rightly written that is

Sometimes I feel a state of Mindlessness is just Being.

Its kind of sad actually that one spent one's life accumulating Becomingness only to realize that it was not needed at all.

So indeed we are all Mules..carried a load that wasnt ours to start with.

Smt. Renuka,

There is no reason to feel sorry about our having been "mules" etc., because, the moment one is able to be convinced (really, really convinced in one's own conscience) that all those things are unnecessary baggage, it becomes easier to mentally enquire about what exactly, after all these, is the Truth and then, gradually, it becomes clear to you that the Absolute Truth has nothing to do with the God concept of religions, that it is an "inanimate" (if that word is appropriate) and ever-present force which pervades this entire universe (and therefore, you and I as well), etc.

It is then like coming out of a deep dungeon and facing the soft, early morning sunlight in a vast expanse of meadows! A person becomes a convert, so to say, to a new and different ideology! Our old godheads, scriptures, prayers, why, even religions themselves become unnecessary just as a child on growing up loses the need to count with its fingers and do arithmetic nebtally and with perfect ease. Subsequently, you will come to a stage when you will be able to understand and appreciate all those unwanted baggages, just as a person who has successfully solved a maze and is perched at a height and is watching others who are floundering in their efforts to get to the end-point of the maze!
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
Sri Sangom's view:

According to me, there is no "spiritual path", but, so long as a person is unable to completely get rid of all the brain-washing accumulated during life through parents, religion, society and even by one's own erroneous judgments about god, religion, truth and all such related things, one will continue to go round and round around the very same things, very much like the bullock tied to the (old-world) oil-presser or சக்கு (cakku). This is very similar to the example of a geo-stationary satellite; what is required is to "break-free" of the gravitational pull of all the conventional wisdoms inculacted in us by parents, religion, society and even by one's own erroneous judgments about god. Then only we will become "Space Explorers" in the true sense.

My view:

1. Every one born in this world has to live here. He/she does not have the option "not to live here" and do something else.

2. He/she has to live in a society. This is again a given situation without any option available to choose from.

3. As a person lives in this world in a society he has to follow a certain rules and principles for the common good of the society and for his individual welfare. The later depends on the former. These principles are compiled as sastras. As time goes changes are incorporated in these sastras but with extreme caution because good and bad for the individual are relative to time.

4. Every one born here is not endowed with the same kind of intellect. Some are born with an inclination to delve deep into the happenings around them while some others just enjoy or suffer whatever is happening and live their life out. It is those who are inclined to think that have the problems of accumulation of burden of knowledge.

5. As time goes every knowledge leads you to just one question and that is the question which humans are trying to find an answer to for the last so many centuries. That question is this: What is all this cause and effect chain of phenomena that are happening around me? what is the root cause of all this? Is there a root cause at all? If there is a cause what is it like? can I not comprehend it? If I cannot why I can not? Or is it that these are all effects without a cause? Am I looking for a cause because I am used to only cause and effects? What kind of thought process will lead me to understand the riddle that says effects can be there without an ultimate cause? Am I capable or am I equipped to comprehend that thought process? Or is it that it is all a big dream and when the dream ends the substrate too just disappears.

6. When an individual is troubled by such questions without answers anywhere in sight he feels totally helpless. He looks into the archives. He finds that his suffering had been the suffering of many souls in the millennium past and they all had come to a certain conclusions as to the way in which this intractable problem has to be handled. The Hindus decided that they have to have an easily imaginable, perceivable and understandable anthropomorphous form as God entity so that they can get rid of the basic problem of comprehension and capture of the root cause to some extent. Then they found that they have been handed down answers to their daunting task in the scriptures as these scriptures were the quintessence of all the wisdom of wise men over centuries.

7. The individual in search of “truth” (the term truth is used to just denote the root cause which is being searched) in today’s world with a questioning mind finds that he can “willingly” and “deliberately” go with the thought processes of these past geniuses as long as it takes him somewhere because the negation of any root cause (the atheistic thought) leads him to a stone wall which these ancestors called the Sunya Vaada. While he is ready to accept the sunya vaada and conclude that there is no root cause and every thing comes to its end when it ends, he also wants to look at the alternative view point. Thus he comes to a religion and all that comes with it including the morals, the evil and good and the ever existing fight between the two, the God principle, the freedom or the tyranny that comes with the God principle depending on which religion you are looking at, the system of values, culture etc., etc.,

8.As long as the physical world and the myriad phenomena supported by the substrate of the physical world is dealt with, the man is perfectly at ease and is the master of the situation. This is because he is able to analyse and get to the root of the cause of all effects and all those phenomena are within his comprehension because of this cause effect coupling. He is comfortable dealing with them. Only when his questioning mind moves to the fundamental problem of the root cause of all that are there, he become uncomfortable because he deals with an entity (if at all it is there) which he is unable to comprehend or contain/mark/hold within certain boundaries. So he takes either the easy way out of denying the existence of the root cause or the other tortuous believer’s route.

9. I have gone through this dilemma for a long time (it was like a labour pain) in the beginning and had been in the denial mode for long. Rather I used to even use all my reasoning abilities and intelligence to find new theories to deny existence of a root cause. Then the sheer familiarity of those mental processes and the ultimate emptiness of that existence led me to recalibrate my tools. With those tools I went after the accumulated knowledge available to me from generations of ancestors in the form of scriptures. For this I had to learn a language right from its alphabets, as the material I wanted to look at was in that language and the language had unique nuances and syntax. When I had finally gone through the material I had the satisfaction of understanding the alternative to the stonewall. Yet the raw and intelligent animal in me says that after all even all this accumulated knowledge may not be really “true”. And I understand that because I love that animal in me and I know that it always has a point. As I am in command I tell myself what I have in those scriptures is better than having nothing or ending up in the stone wall. And there is another reason why these scriptures can be really speaking the “truth”. I find many other “minor truths” said there are really true and so the “major truth” revealed can not be untrue. This again is a logic of my intelligent mind and the scripture does not depend on this argument. I understand that.

10.I understand the Geo-stationary satellite well. It is geo-stationary because it appears to stay in one point in space relative to the rotating earth. In determining its orbiting speed the relative difference between its orbiting velocity and the orbiting velocity of earth are carefully calculated and the difference is factored into the orbiting speed of the satellite so that it remain “stationery” relative to earth. This is all science which the animal in me understands well. But there are many fundamental questions relating to the heavenly bodies for which I am unable to get the final answer and it is then that I feel miserable. I can not rest without finding the answer and it is then that I turn to the scriptures. The accumulated wisdom available there indicates to me a possibility and I am satisfied with that. When I accept the scripture there is another advantage that accrues to me. I can dispense with all that I have acquired and accumulated over time from scriptures, from science, from observation, from experience in the world etc., It is then that I go to my anthropomorphic entity (my creation for my convenience and yet all powerful-yes just that one word is enough to explain it) and say, hey! here I am. please take me. I have nothing with me. I am empty. LOL.

This post is for those who feels they find me explaining their plight some time in their life. Not for those who are immersed in the world and just live their lives out. LOL.
 
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renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Dear Vaagmi ji,

I feel like writing a book..it will be called "An Autobiography of a Mule"

Kayfabe_mule1-300x225.jpg
 

tks

Well-known member
.
.
.

Absolute Truth has nothing to do with the God concept of religions, that it is an "inanimate" (if that word is appropriate) and ever-present force which pervades this entire universe (and therefore, you and I as well), etc.



AMEN! (though I would word it differently :) )

It is then like coming out of a deep dungeon and facing the soft, early morning sunlight in a vast expanse of meadows! A person becomes a convert, so to say, to a new and different ideology! Our old godheads, scriptures, prayers, why, even religions themselves become unnecessary just as a child on growing up loses the need to count with its fingers and do arithmetic nebtally and with perfect ease. Subsequently, you will come to a stage when you will be able to understand and appreciate all those unwanted baggages, just as a person who has successfully solved a maze and is perched at a height and is watching others who are floundering in their efforts to get to the end-point of the maze!

My understanding: Yes for some point and No to others

Yes Part : Truth is masked by a lot of incorrect learning. One never learns to 'unlearn' all the wrong notions. It is in describing this point some months ago in another thread when I received a lot of Mannangatti directed at me (Truly Laughing Out Loud when I think about that thread)

Maturity (I do not like the vague word 'spiritual') begins when all religions end in a person's internal thinking (not necessarily their external actions which I will amplify in the 'No part' ).

ALL Religions (including all that are considered to fall under the name of Hinduism) cater to people's insecurity and their need to fulfill their desires. The desires also include desire to reserve a place in heaven (Christians), paradise (Islam), Vaikuntam OR Siva Lokam (Hinduism) after their death. For all these people Spirituality = 'Doing' Religious traditions. There is nothing wrong with this approach. It is just that it is a manifestation of what may be called Karpanya Dhosha.

There are many others who are happily chasing material things - money, power, men/women as pleasure objects, drinks, drugs etc. And they may share their loot with God of the religions.

Unless these notions are destroyed by right knowledge it is not possible to uncover truth



The "No part" may appear controversial due to choice of some Varna words I have - let me post that in another message when I have some time
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
Dear Vaagmi ji,

I feel like writing a book..it will be called "An Autobiography of a Mule"

Kayfabe_mule1-300x225.jpg

Hi Mule Maami,

Being an "auto"biography I know you will approach me for a prologue. Being a kindred mule soul I have kept one ready along with an epilogue too. In India you get one free if you take one. LOL. I will allow you to steal a look at the prologue if you want. Let me know. The epi part will come when you complete your biography. I know I am buying time because mules are notorious for their laziness and the tendency to eat up whatever is used to write on, whether it is autobiography or a medical prescription. LOL.
 
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Vaagmi

Well-known member
Sri Sangom's words in quotes:

gradually, it becomes clear to you that the Absolute Truth has nothing to do with the God concept of religions, that it is an "inanimate" (if that word is appropriate) and ever-present force which pervades this entire universe (and therefore, you and I as well), etc.

The stupid student from the last bench, waking up, asks " Sir, don't you think this is another God concept? And don't you think that you have missed the point that the "animate" forms of God are all just a convenience? And if it is a force that pervades me, what is this "me"?

Subsequently, you will come to a stage when you will be able to understand and appreciate all those unwanted baggages, just as a person who has successfully solved a maze and is perched at a height and is watching others who are floundering in their efforts to get to the end-point of the maze!

The student further asks, "Sir, When I have solved the maze my mind keeps troubling me asking who designed such an easy maze. I am unable to find an answer to that question. Others are all still stuck in the maze, ok. But I am perched at the vantage height and I do not want to look at those who are still struggling. I want to meet that soul who designed the maze and give a bit of my mind. Could you please solve this new maze too?"
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Hi Mule Maami,

Being an "auto"biography I know you will approach me for a prologue. Being a kindred mule soul I have kept one ready along with an epilogue too. In India you get one free if you take one. LOL. I will allow you to steal a look at the prologue if you want. Let me know. The epi part will come when you complete your biography. I know I am buying time because mules are notorious for their laziness and the tendency to eat up whatever is used to write on, whether it is autobiography or a medical prescription. LOL.

I have already started writing some today..almost done with the 1st chapter.

I will write it..one day I might think of printing it.

Lets see.
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
I have already started writing some today..almost done with the 1st chapter.

I will write it..one day I might think of printing it.

Lets see.

I am waiting to give you the prologue and do a peer review. That will be a privilege. Thank you.
 

tks

Well-known member
[/FONT]

AMEN! (though I would word it differently :) )



My understanding: Yes for some point and No to others

Yes Part : Truth is masked by a lot of incorrect learning. One never learns to 'unlearn' all the wrong notions. It is in describing this point some months ago in another thread when I received a lot of Mannangatti directed at me (Truly Laughing Out Loud when I think about that thread)

Maturity (I do not like the vague word 'spiritual') begins when all religions end in a person's internal thinking (not necessarily their external actions which I will amplify in the 'No part' ).

ALL Religions (including all that are considered to fall under the name of Hinduism) cater to people's insecurity and their need to fulfill their desires. The desires also include desire to reserve a place in heaven (Christians), paradise (Islam), Vaikuntam OR Siva Lokam (Hinduism) after their death. For all these people Spirituality = 'Doing' Religious traditions. There is nothing wrong with this approach. It is just that it is a manifestation of what may be called Karpanya Dhosha.

There are many others who are happily chasing material things - money, power, men/women as pleasure objects, drinks, drugs etc. And they may share their loot with God of the religions.

Unless these notions are destroyed by right knowledge it is not possible to uncover truth



The "No part" may appear controversial due to choice of some Varna words I have - let me post that in another message when I have some time


Here is the counter point to assert why giving up all rituals will not lead to removal of ultimate ignorance.

Giving up all duties is for a legitimate and recognized lifestyle (for a Sannyasi) but the effort required is immense for them to make progress. Most of us lead 'life of doing our duties' and hence my focus on this post is about 'our' lifestyles only.

There are few assertions I want to make first in a Q&A style. The focus is not about me and if anyone is bothered about the style it is best not to read further. I can hear a few saying "who the hell are you to give answers as if you are all knowing" .. I am not, but Q&A style works the best to communicate these points which comprise some aspects of my understanding.

1. Edison famously had stated "Genius: one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration" . Let me modify this statement for this topic of 'enlightenment' for the lack of a better word. Enlightenment results from 99.99% preparation and 0.01% of self-knowledge.

2. What is this 0.01% part?
Answer: All Upanishads, B.Gita, Brahma Sutra, Moksha Parva (mahabharatha), Tattva Bodha , Yoga Vasishtam (in Ramayana) etc etc all teach one idea only and the entire teaching can be summarized in few lines. This idea of accumulating information from many such sources is actually an impediment to realizing the true knowledge especially when one lacks the preparation

3.What is this 99.99% part?

Answer: The preparation part consists of two equally important and interrelated aspects. One is preparation of our capacity to learn (I will use the word mind to refer to our capacity to learn) and the other is developing skills to unlearn all wrong notions we have picked up todate. One has to be totally committed to wanting to know the truth rather than wanting to prove that own sense of ego is right.

Though there are many that practice Science like a religion, by and large true scientists are totally open to reexamining the basic assumptions all the time. Major breakthrough happened in the past in Physics and happening now only because of this integrity to seek the truth among true scientists.

The well established QED (Quantum Electrodynamics) theory which predicted certain experimental results to very high precision of 10 to 12 digits may get reexamined if today's experiments underway require scientists to do so.

During Sri Sankara days, people from various schools of thoughts could come together and the PurvaPaksha style debates were possible only due to highest standards of integrity to uncover the truth by everyone present.

In today's world and certainly in this forum, this attitude to seek truth at any cost is missing since need to feed the ego positions always take higher priority.

4. If 0.01% can be summarized in few lines why not say that here and now?

Answer: OK, I tend to be wordy which is my weakness. There are many perspectives from which the same idea can be expressed. I will attempt to share one such perspective.

The ultimate knowledge is actually realizing the truth of 'who I am' (fancy word is Atma) and words cannot be used to describe this I because the words can only describe anything that we objectify. While the existence of 'I' needs no proof, true nature of 'I" can never be known by the mind which is dependent on 'I' for its existence .

5. That is confusing! If words and mind cannot be used then how can this knowledge be gained?

Answer: Teaching methods available in Upanishads ONLY can provide this knowledge and it employs not just words but other directives to be practiced. It is teaching and not preaching! tThis is a big distinction from any other scriptures in the world which requires faith as a starting point. Here faith (blind) is not required but Shraddha to expend effort is required

6. If it is about I , who is gaining this knowledge?

Answer: This true 'I' is taken for a 'I thought' in the mind which is also loosely translated as ego. When the teaching takes place, the knowledge removes this ego leaving the true I with its true nature shining

7. So what is the method taught to learn this?

Answer: Three words - Srvanam (hearing the teaching immersed in Upanishads by a qualified teacher( and I offer my prayers to my teachers when I say this ), Mananam ( relating the teaching to our personal experience in our mind) and Nididhyasanam. The last part is key as asserted by Sri Sangom in one of the posts in this thread.

While Sravanam and Mananam is about deliberate action for growth, the last part Nididhyasanam is not action but about realizing the 'being who I am'. Meditation is about 'being who I am' and not about action. Chapter 6 of B.Gita and Mandukya Upanishad focuses its teaching on this last part namely Nididhyasanam. Without this there can not be growth (see answer to Question 5 above)

8. If the above comprise all that is to be learnt (which includes methods to learn) and makes up only 0.01%, what is all this 99.99% preparation required? We are exposed to ideas of rebirth, various Varna etc - and none of this is mentioned !

Answer: 99.99% comment applies to preparing the mind because the entire life experience of this universe is revealed to us only in our mind. Mind is abstract but a tool. Wrong notions prevent us from knowing the truth. Anyone regardless of how they are born can achieve this without changing their profession.

9. How can someone born as a Shudra get this knowledge? A person born in this varna does not even get a thread (Upanayanam)? Are these people just doomed? How can our teaching be called so if it leaves out a large portions of our population?

Answer: Relax! There are lots of mistaken notion here and many continue to do harmful practices to others with mistaken notions. The word Shudra has many meanings. One describes a group of people in certain professions. In this post I shared my notes from Rajiv Malhotra's writing about this Varna .

Our Rishis viewed the life form as comprised of three Gunas - Tamasic ('lazy'), Rajasic ('passionate') and Sattvic (not Tamasic or Rajasic) and all three Gunas are needed for living. Sleeping is essential and is Tamasic. People who are predominantly Tamasic in their outlook are also called by the word Shudra and such people can get prepared for learning in a boot camp like situation where they are woken up to action by people who are Sattvic and Rajasic. The Rajasic mindset has to be conquered by Sattvic activities.

10. What about the birth based classification as Shudras which is unfair because they are exploited?

Yes, in today's society birth based Brahmanas or Shudras does not make any sense and can be unfairly exploited (which must be rejected by anyone aspiring this knowledge). There are no entitlements of any kind that makes sense in today's world. We all do work of all Varnas at various points in life. Furthermore we are ALL shudras at birth and hence do not have this preparation to learn this self-knowledge. Most of us - almost all of us - stay as Shudras (I include myself in this) from this vantage point.

11. That is preposterous! You mean to say this forum should be called Tamil Shudras ??

Short answer is Yes - since almost everyone is so by the definition of our qualities. I know some here will take offense. Let me connect this back to the main topic of preparation

12. So what is the connection?

I need to use a well known verse for help and hopefully complete the connection about rituals and self knowledge

The verse is:

Atreya smriti

"janmanajayate shudrah
samskarad dvijaucyate
vedapathi bhavedviprah
brahma janatibrahmanah

Translation:
By birth,every man & woman is a Shudra . Through various types of disciplines (samskaras), he/she becomes a dwija (twice born). Through the studies of scriptures, he/she becomes a vipra (or a scholar). Through realization of brahmajnana, he/she becomes a brahmana.

The above applies to man and woman and transgender people as well!

The discipline one learns through a set of provan and prescribed activities get one to train the mind. Notwithstanding how we are born, doing our duties with focus and sincerity is the start of getting that training of our mind.

There are Nithya Karmas and Naimithika Karmas when performed with sincerity have yielded results for our ancestors and many people. These Karmas are to be done without expectations of any result and are a form of Yoga in preparation of our mind for realizing Nididhyasana later.

In today's world anyone can do Sandhyavandana - it is a form of Yoga, Pranayama and training rolled into one. Not doing Nitya Karma is a sure way to stay ignorant (unless one has chosen a Sannyasi lifestyle which requires different focus). In other words there are no easy way out.

Most cannot take the rigor required to do all these prescribed Karmas and that too without expectations. There may be some good results along the waybut the performer has to do these without fail. Shraddham is also a Nitya Karma.

Doing these Karmas only makes someone take the first step. The next step is to do with full understanding and turning all these action into a Yoga. One may be called Viprah at this stage but they are still a Shudra.

In the last step all focus on the rituals have to be transcended but only internally! There is still a need to do all the Nitya Karmas externally in our actions. But we do not identify these as our actions. We become merely a witness to the action taking place with the tools of our body and mind. It is at this stage that one is prepared to learn via Sravanam, Mananam and realize Nididhyasamam

Om Tat Sat!
 
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