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God...Why?

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sapr333

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The most 'logical' deductions about God have come to us not from the 'intellectual' side, but rather from the 'mystical' side of all religions. It is remarkable how this side of all religions agree on the nature of God. God to them is an all loving, all pervasive power, not infused with any human qualities.

So, it seems to me then, 'monism' is probably the best way to describe God. Because I believe that the absolute morality of this world is dependent on the svadharma that God has given us all. He also has created the good and evil. I do not believe in a Satan as the embodiment of evil. Evil and sin arise out of ignorance not out of any inherent badness of all human beings: Courtesy K.R.S

Why we need God? What if God is not there?

PS: Let's not set our arguments based on scriptures
 
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sapr333

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KRS >>>God to them is an all loving, all pervasive power, not infused with any human qualities.>>>

KRS,

If God is 'All powerful', then he would also, equally have the power to occupy a human or stone form.. Do you agree with me.
 

KRS

Well-known member
sapr333,

You seem to ask the right question in the first part - 'Why we need God?'. The answer is very simple from the viewpoint of 'monism'. It is to make sure that we do not undergo the countless cycles of 'birth' and 'rebirth' so that we can avoid all the miseries these cycles cause.

Now your second question, 'What if God is not there' is a question beyond faith. From a logical point of view on it's face this question is wrong. Because this question can only stem from a knowledge that says that all the Universe we see was not created and ever existed so. We know this is wrong from the carbon data - the universe as we speak is developing in to something else. Then the question is, what caused it? Once you then agree to the premise that this world was created at one time (big bang theory) then one has to accept the fact that something caused that creation. That cause is what we call 'God'.

The most 'logical' deductions about God have come to us not from the 'intellectual' side, but rather from the 'mystical' side of all religions. It is remarkable how this side of all religions agree on the nature of God. God to them is an all loving, all pervasive power, not infused with any human qualities.

So, it seems to me then, 'monism' is probably the best way to describe God. Because I believe that the absolute morality of this world is dependent on the svadharma that God has given us all. He also has created the good and evil. I do not believe in a Satan as the embodiment of evil. Evil and sin arise out of ignorance not out of any inherent badness of all human beings: Courtesy K.R.S

Why we need God? What if God is not there?
 
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KRS

Well-known member
sapr333,

Please define 'occupy'.

Regards,
KRS

KRS >>>God to them is an all loving, all pervasive power, not infused with any human qualities.>>>

KRS,

If God is 'All powerful', then he would also, equally have the power to occupy a human or stone form.. Do you agree with me.
 
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sapr333

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Thanks K.R.S for the wonderful response.

I fully agree to the premise, God as the cause of creation (or) First cause. In this light, monoism should be agreeing to the point that Universe started at one point, ie, its finite, and if this is accepted, monism would tread well with science & fall in line with 'Big Bang'.

Now back, to the first point.. According to Monism,If the need of God is to reduce the cycle of re-births, so whats the role of God here? Possibly an Absolute Arbitor / Absolute Justice maintainer/ even Absolute Law giver? Im sure God only should have set the law/algorithm for re-births?

Regarding God & Stone,Man,I carefully chose not to use the word 'manifestation' here. My point is, If God is all powerful, then he can also be equally powerful to choose any 'Form' of matter/anti-matter. Hence, the all powerful God can also can chose to take a 'Form of Stone' or 'Form of Man'.

PS: If next few forth coming posts we will attempt to conceptualize the 'conept/nature of God' based upon Monism.
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
This is a very nice conversation b/w both of you...hope its ok to join in...

For the sake of this discussion, am thinking of transforming into an atheist for a while..

Lets say there really is no god. But we have all 'imagined" it to be so. Then what happens, to us, to the world, to existentiality?

Why does each one of us think that there is a God?

Is it in our system to think that way or is it based on observation / unexplained external factors, questions about how the self came to exist or such things or some more things?

Basically why do each one of us 'imagine' that there is a god?

Did god really set any algorith for a rebirth or is there a point of freewill in the soul that chooses to have a diff experiance than the former one (on its own)?

If god can or does, is it not possible for the soul of a man to manifest as a stone?

Regards.
 
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sapr333

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Lets say there really is no god. But we have all 'imagined" it to be so. Then what happens, to us, to the world, to existentiality?
Regards.

There is a popular saying amongst the neutralists who tread both the aetheist and theist lines(a kind of opportunists), who says, Oh! God, If there is a God, Oh Heaven, If there is a heaven, please take me to that heaven..

If there is no God, then human race will have no accountablity towards their actions, cos there is no one superior among them, apart from their own parents/wife.One can escape the eyes of the law and resort to debauchery freely. Who in this world can question him? Even law cannot catch hold of him.

One can resort to killing or incest inside the close doors and live a cannibal life, without getting spotted by law-man of the land..On what basis, you gonna point him wrong, though we know he is wrong!! There must be a stratum/bench mark for all there, and without God, or a SUPER HUMAN, we loose that stratum.

Similarly, for all human comprehensions, we need a benchmark. be it moral/justice/law.. We are all looking for an absolute law giver, who can give a law/justice irrespective of caste/colour/religion/race.. Who could be that missing personality?(Can a Prime Minister/King/swamiji fit in to that shoes?

The next philosophical question comes is, What the puropose of my life?(in this world) Why Im here in this world? What makes things moves around? What will happen to me after death? Whats wrong if I resort to debaunchery? As a child mom nourished me, then dad took care of me, then wife, then childrens took care in the death bed, and finally, who will take care of me, till last. The cycle must go on right!!.Yes, If we equate ourselves to animals, then there is a different point to discuss here..(will talk on this seperately)


These kind of human feelings and questions have found answers in Concept of God.. And God is not a distant dream, rather, he is also a super human being, who had communed with the man kind, interms of prayers/rituals/revelations/prophets/Avadhars etc..

Even then, one can 'Reject God' meaningfully.. But looking around the world, they say, the concept of God has helped the countries move up in science/economy/social life/value for life, when compared to those, who never believed in God.Even the moral standards/constitution on the aetheist countries follow the theist constitution..

Historically, killing others is proved wrong only with the concept of God, not by aetheists. Without the concept of "God' mankind would have been following the jungle law, just like another advanced species of Orangs..Thankfully, concept of God like Krishna/J.Christ/Mahavir/Buddha etc set some standards and brought dignity to human life and moving them from cannibal and jungle life.Here comes the role of God communing with mankind, revealing through holy persons, about gods' agenda.

And intersting counterview given to Richards Dawkins is.. Look, I can kill and rape some one, who are you to stop me!! Who are you to say im doing wrong? If so on what basis? To the max you can kill me, but I have an AK-47, so u cant.. How do we handle this situation?

PS: Starting from Aristotle,eminent philosophers have tried to dis-prove the existence of God..But none could achieve as on date"
 
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sapr333

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Happy Hindu,

here I wish to say " Why the man-kind need God?" in 4 broad spectrums

1) WISDOM: We know that each one of us lack knowledge one or other way. We wish there was someone very wise and mature that we could confide in and ask advice in a higher level. Even the people we adore are busy with their own lives; and there must be some boday, at any hour of the day or night and expect them to listen to all our problems. A quest!!

2) Morals:- We need some one to tell you whats right and wrong? A dilemma still exists among Nazis and mankind, that, if Hitler is right/wrong... Who is there to give absolute moral law and justice? Who is going to give justice for debaunchery?

3) Unconditional Love:- We may not have got it from parents/life partners/Children... Who in this world can give unconditional love?

4)Fulfillment of this life:-

Everyone has a reason to get out of bed in the morning, and many can be happy without God. But what about fulfillment?? an inner peace even in the midst of difficult circumstances, a certain knowledge of the meaning and purpose of one's life despite one's mortality, a true sense that our deepest needs have been met (as opposed to the temporary satisfaction of wealth, entertainment, success, praise, etc. that ultimately leaves one craving more)?

God created us for a purpose, and we will find fulfillment and peace when we do what he designed us to do(Purpose of life)
 

KRS

Well-known member
sapr333, my answers are in 'blue'
Thanks K.R.S for the wonderful response.

I fully agree to the premise, God as the cause of creation (or) First cause. In this light, monoism should be agreeing to the point that Universe started at one point, ie, its finite, and if this is accepted, monism would tread well with science & fall in line with 'Big Bang'.

Now back, to the first point.. According to Monism,If the need of God is to reduce the cycle of re-births, so whats the role of God here? Possibly an Absolute Arbitor / Absolute Justice maintainer/ even Absolute Law giver? Im sure God only should have set the law/algorithm for re-births?
Brahman is without any attribute, especially no human ones. When the Universe is created and destryed by Ishwara, no one knows why (that's why we call it 'Leela'). Again, once the world is created, it has both manifest and unmanifest parts, which all act according to a grand design.

All religions one way or other look up to 'being' with God as the final aim of the human beings (for various reasons)

Again Hinduism does not look upon God as the 'law giver'.

Regarding God & Stone,Man,I carefully chose not to use the word 'manifestation' here. My point is, If God is all powerful, then he can also be equally powerful to choose any 'Form' of matter/anti-matter. Hence, the all powerful God can also can chose to take a 'Form of Stone' or 'Form of Man'.
How about 'infused'? In Hinduism, prakriti emanates from Brahman. So this 'God' stuff permeates within all sentient and insentient things.

PS: If next few forth coming posts we will attempt to conceptualize the 'conept/nature of God' based upon Monism.
 
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sapr333

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Originally Posted by KRS

1>>Brahman is without any attribute, especially no human ones. When the Universe is created and destryed by Ishwara, no one knows why (that's why we call it 'Leela'). Again, once the world is created, it has both manifest and unmanifest parts, which all act according to a grand design.

2>>Again Hinduism does not look upon God as the 'law giver'.

3>>How about 'infused'? In Hinduism, prakriti emanates from Brahman. So this 'God' stuff permeates within all sentient and insentient things.

Just a reminder..At the moment we are setting our dialogue based on Monism&Advaidham.

1&3) There is a 16th century paradox.. If God is an all powerful creator(you agree with this too),then, can he create a word so big, that, he cannot destory/lift it!!

If God is all powerful, then he should equally be powerful to take any forms/shapes/nature. If God loves his people (as you agreed), then he should take any form (understandable to humans) and reveal to us, than being a distant imaginary hero. In my view, that point holds good in explaining 'Lord Rama as avadhar of God, or worshipping of Idols with the faith God is there in the idol. btw,Do you call Lord Rama is(as) infused with God, or God's avadhar?

2) How do you define the logic/algorithm of Rebirth... Do you think God has no judicial role in rebirths? We always say Bad-deed and good deed... Who decides this good deed or bad deed? Im sure it must be God.. If humans have to decide our own good deeds/karmic effects, then according to Germans, hitler is a great king, who killed 6Mn jews for the cause of german economy and superiority!! For Germans, Hitler should have immediately reached oneness with Brahma, for all the good he did under King's Dharma.

In this light, I think, God should have a role as Absolute Law giver & Absolute Justice.

Yes, if you believe, 'We as role players enacting the pre written will of God', then my points don't hold good. But I doubt if Monism and Advaitham says so.
 
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sapr333

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Dear KRS, post #6 of HappyHindu is interesting...

"What if God is not there"

Could you please present your view on this. Just curious. Thanks in advance.
 

KRS

Well-known member
sapr333,

my response is in 'blue':

Just a reminder..At the moment we are setting our dialogue based on Monism&Advaidham.

1&3) There is a 16th century paradox.. If God is an all powerful creator(you agree with this too),then, can he create a word so big, that, he cannot destory/lift it!!
'So big' for whom?

If God is all powerful, then he should equally be powerful to take any forms/shapes/nature.
Okay.
If God loves his people (as you agreed), then he should take any form (understandable to humans) and reveal to us, than being a distant imaginary hero.
When I said God loves his people, I repeated what our sages and other religions have said. God's 'love' may not be the same as how we mean it ( because in monism, God has no inherent human qualities). Because we do not know why He creates the Universe and destroys it, we can not have such human expectations. But then I disagree with your assessment about Him not revealing to us. He reveals His presence every second, through the workings of the Universe. He reveals through our lives. Because He is infused in us.
In my view, that point holds good in explaining 'Lord Rama as avadhar of God, or worshipping of Idols with the faith God is there in the idol. btw,Do you call Lord Rama is(as) infused with God, or God's avadhar?
Avathars are 'puranic'. Even if He takes Avathars, He is bound by human conditions. While culturally and emotionally I accept the concept of avathars, intellectually I am ambivalent about it.
2) How do you define the logic/algorithm of Rebirth... Do you think God has no judicial role in rebirths? We always say Bad-deed and good deed... Who decides this good deed or bad deed? Im sure it must be God.. If humans have to decide our own good deeds/karmic effects, then according to Germans, hitler is a great king, who killed 6Mn jews for the cause of german economy and superiority!! For Germans, Hitler should have immediately reached oneness with Brahma, for all the good he did under King's Dharma.
Karma is accrued during each of your life, but the effects of karma can happen at any birth. So, as you said before just because the nations who got rich by invading other countries unjustly and robbing them seem to have a good phala now, does not mean that in the future they will have such a good karma phala. By the dharma of a King, Hitler was adharmic. The rebirth and the map of that life with what karmaphala would unfold is in the realm of Ishwara - not in the hands of an individual.

In this light, I think, God should have a role as Absolute Law giver & Absolute Justice.
But by creating us and giving us Dharma, He has given us both. I don't understand why you want Him to give the Law. Again, what you call as 'absolute' law is not absolute.

Yes, if you believe, 'We as role players enacting the pre written will of God', then my points don't hold good. But I doubt if Monism and Advaitham says so.
 
To All: Good postings and rely,s. God power over nzture and control over human affairs. God cannot be visible but realize with in. One should go inside and understand then he will know God. In Tamil Kadavul that is Kadanthu ulle sendral understand and called Kadavul. S.R.K.
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
Sapr,

1) <<If there is no God, then human race will have no accountablity towards their actions, cos there is no one superior among them..law cannot catch hold of him.>>

So "God" is made by man for a fear-based or reward based idea of good behaviour?

2) <<One can resort to killing ...and without God, or a SUPER HUMAN, we loose that stratum.>>

Are humans so 'weak' that we need an outside factor to govern our thoughts and behaviour?

3) <<Similarly, for all human comprehensions, we need a benchmark. be it moral/justice/law.. We are all looking for an absolute law giver, who can give ..>>

Why do we need a benchmark? Is God like a headmaster or a judge churning out justice like, 'you better obey me or you will get punished' type of thing? Why cannot God control whatever we see as "evil" also then? So in this concept God is actually powerless, since he cannot control "evil" and chooses to "punish" people. Why does anyone need such a powerless god?

4) <<The next philosophical question comes is, What the puropose of my life?(in this world) Why Im here in this world? What makes things moves around? What will happen to me after death? Whats wrong if I resort to debaunchery? As a child mom nourished me, then dad took care of me, then wife, then childrens took care in the death bed, and finally, who will take care of me, till last. The cycle must go on right!!.Yes, If we equate ourselves to animals, then there is a different point to discuss here..(will talk on this seperately)>>

Lets begin with this - what do you think is your purpose of life? Is life about dependence, abt taking care of and being taken care of? Btw, hindus had the concept of vanaprastha, meaning the elderly were independent in those days, so this concept might not fit in with certain parameters in this part...and why must things exist? why must the human cycle or any cycle go on?

5) <<These kind of human feelings and questions have found answers in Concept of God.. And God is not a distant dream, rather, he is also a super human being, who had communed with the man kind, interms of prayers/rituals/revelations/prophets/Avadhars etc..>>

So is God in the shape of a man if he is a super human being?

6) <<Historically, killing others is proved wrong only with the concept of God, not by aetheists. Without the concept of "God' mankind would have been following the jungle law, just like another advanced species of Orangs..Thankfully, concept of God like Krishna/J.Christ/Mahavir/Buddha etc set some standards and brought dignity to human life and moving them from cannibal and jungle life.Here comes the role of God communing with mankind, revealing through holy persons, about gods' agenda.>>

Sigh, so God has an agenda? Why only Krishna. Christ, Buddha....why not Hitler and Mussolini ? After all what we understand as "good" cannot exist if what what we understand as "bad" does not exist..Did not Hitler and Mussolini contribute to our understanding of good then? If God exists, are they (hitler, mussolini) god-created "evils" then? If God exists, why did God create them then?

7) Starting from Aristotle,eminent philosophers have tried to dis-prove the existence of God..But none could achieve as on date"

Buddha is supposed to have disproved the existence of god. Advaitha does not beleive in a 'seperate creator god' either..

 
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sridharvasudevan

Active member
Hello everyone,

Nice topic. It would be great to watch this thread in the next few weeks. It has immense scope for individual opinion. I would be keen to look for distinct questions and opinions from each rather than quotes from scriptures. That is just my yearning...let's see how this thread shapes up.


I would like to pick up a line from a posting below for me to start a discussion, "If there is no God, then human race will have no accountablity towards their actions, cos there is no one superior among them...."

Looks like the author feels only humans are accountable in this world. At least every living thing is accountable right? This question can be simply kept in relation with nature's law of every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

If every action is accountable and the actor (worm/fish/insect/bird/plant/animal) need not have any idea about god then the whole posting from sapr333 below (at least major part would be wiped out).

So it would be God...What? rather than Why?

If it is "why?" then we are creating god. If it is "what?" then we are exploring god.
 

sridharvasudevan

Active member
During the course of discussion on this thread, please anyone - also try to explain the following two questions from YOUR point of view - NOT quoting scriptures even if there is anything already written about it.

People say the Universe expands - but into what?
People say God is in everything - but from where did God come from?
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
sridhar,

i feel good to answer this query, and i am really a mandu when it comes to reading scriptures.

to me, your questions, are the basis of my belief in God. the mysteries of the faith. which makes me believe, that there is One above all of us.

Formless. Timeless. Fathomless.

whom I call Siva, several times a day.

i try to keep it simple these days.

thank you.


During the course of discussion on this thread, please anyone - also try to explain the following two questions from YOUR point of view - NOT quoting scriptures even if there is anything already written about it.

People say the Universe expands - but into what?
People say God is in everything - but from where did God come from?
 
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sapr333

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Looks like the author feels only humans are accountable in this world. At least every living thing is accountable right? This question can be simply kept in relation with nature's law of every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

If every action is accountable and the actor (worm/fish/insect/bird/plant/animal) need not have any idea about god then the whole posting from sapr333 below (at least major part would be wiped out).
.


Dear Sridhar, I welcome you here!! I also appreicate your view, which is inded thought provocking(esp second paragraph)..requesting you to stay tuned, cos, I'm specifically looking for contradictory views!

A small note... As hinduism is of diffrent school of thoughts, I would request you to address your stand on this. For eg, KRS said, he sticks by Monism & Advaidham.. Though Im not curious about any ones stands, Im asking this, so that we dont get mixed with complex doctrines and beliefs.. Trust you would agree with me.

Back to the point.. If every action of animals are accountable, then, I agree with you, all my logic would fail, and Hindu philosophy (not sure if its Monist philosophy too) of equating animals with humans (rather all living being as one) would definitely stand tall..I have no second thought about that.

But then, to start with,you need to agree with the premise that, homosapiens are same as pigs/chicken in the eyes of god. If you agree, then, you have a big task ahead to prove your point

1) How can a Chicken/Pig do good tapa or deed to come out of its Karmic debts. Do a pig/bacteria know what a good tapa is?

2) If Chicken/Goat can be chopped for our appetite in this world,then slitting the throat of a human may not be wrong for a common man..We equally kill lot of Bacterias by antibiotics, and do deforestation for real-estate!! ( I mean equating human life with plant life)

3) Why plants and rocks are missed in the purpose of life.. Do rocks and sand know that they have a pupose of life? How can a mountain/spinach/Oak tree pursue their goal to reach God.. Do they have a soul?.. They are also the God's creation right!!.. Why not the god's creation of rock/stone be made accountable also?

4) One can all nullify all my arguments,just by claiming , that, 'We are all a role playing puppets act in this world"... If you believe in this doctine, please let me know, I have a unique question for you


Having said that, Monotheism definitely fails to answer the purpose of animals in line with soul/oneness with God. But It gives a high value for human (homosapien) life and considers the animal/plant kingdom as a suppliement for the esteemed humans, similar to rock/beaches/waterfalls etc. Above all, it distinguishes 5th and 6th sense..


PS: I truly enjoyed your view, and I lookforward to be here often.. I also request one of my favourite handle Shri Seshadri-subramoniam to join here..
 
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sapr333

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1>>People say the Universe expands - but into what?

2>>People say God is in everything - but from where did God come from?

1)) Only to kindle this same point, I have quoted the the 11th century (not 6th as said in earlier post)philosopher Avveroes 'God-Stone paradox' earlier.. ie, If God is all Powerful, can he create a big stone, so big, that he cannot lift it!!! Try to refute this, then you will realise God.

Yes, universe expands.. I agree with you. But then, you need to explain, if the universe started at one point, and life infinity of expansion, its origin was also infinity (or even sub-zero, ie infinitesmly small)..?

2>>> If people say God is in Every Thing, then he can also be every where an in every spot of TIME/Place of Origin.. You comprehend a time of origin of God and place of Origin of God, sure he will be there, cos you agreed to the point, that ' God is in every thing'.. May be we can call him as 'Infinite".....

So where is the confusion?
 
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sapr333

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Lets all welcome Kunjuppu..

I have enjoyed reading some of his intellectual posts. Having gone through many of his posts(though not countered him), I regard his intellectuality/razer sharp points, in line with Naachinarkiniyan.
 

KRS

Well-known member
I have read all the responses/posts here from and this are my thoughts on the questions raised:

1. Regarding the existence of God: This can never be proven or unproven using Logic. We are part of a perfectly closed system. By inference if God has created the Universe then we can never understand/imagine what is outside of the Universe.

2. Ditto for the reason why God has created the Universe. We will never understand why.

3. But the theory that God infuses everything at least in my opinion has some validity. The validity comes from all the mystics of all religions who looked inside themselves and describe the same entity they call our 'souls'. The identity of God thus once gained seems to lead to the same conclusion - the validity of existence/infusion.

4. It is accepted generally that the Universe is 'expanding' so far. Who knows that it will forever expand? As to 'why?' the Big Bang theory explains this.

5. Karma applies only to those living beings that are given free will and cognitive ability (sentience). This is why it is said that matter (like rock etc.) or animals do not have any Karma attached to them.

6. Eating meat is not prohibited by 'advaitha' and 'monism'. If God wanted man to evolve eating only vegetarian, He would have given men digestive systems and teeth that can only process vegetarian food. Obviously this is not the case as man has evolved and survived doing hunting and fishing. Killing animals for food is perfectly acceptable in most religions (except for Jainism).

7. Morality is the derivative of the basic human dharma - 'survival'. What we call as 'morality' and individual 'freedom' today, came out of the concept of democracy and industrialization that 'atomised' every human being. The 'liberation' movements of all kinds around the world reflect this atomization of a human being with respect to society.

Regards,
KRS
 
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sapr333

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KRS, thats indeed a good summary with 7 crispy views. Except for point 5&7 I fairly well agree with the rest.


>>5. Karma applies only to those living beings that are given free will >>

Im not sure if Monism/advaitham supports 'Freewill'. Swami Vivekananda says"Therefore we see at once that there cannot be any such thing as free-will; the very words are a contradiction, because will is what we know, and everything that we know is within our universe, and everything within our universe is moulded by conditions of time, space and causality. ... To acquire freedom we have to get beyond the limitations of this universe; it cannot be found here"

Secondly,reincarnation includes animals also (according to scriptures). I'm not sure if Monism/Advaitham says so.You may have to authenticate this statement.


>>>>7. Morality is the derivative of the basic human dharma - 'survival'. What we call as 'morality' and individual 'freedom' today, came out of the concept of democracy and industrialization that 'atomised' every human being. The 'liberation' movements of all kinds around the world reflect this atomization of a human being with respect to society.>>>

In my view, morality is rooted in God. Let say, if 'Sanadhana Dharma' is the base for vedic morality, there must be some one who delivered it to man kind from God. If Dharma morality, is created by man himself, then, then the same man can create another advanced morality and reject Dharma.(Im not sure how good I could articulate my view.. need a long discussion here)

Similarly, If God governs the process/logic/rules of reincarnation (as you agreed in earlier post), then Im sure god would have his own set of rules to decide this process. He would have a set of law.

While talking about hitler, you said, According the War Dharma, hitler was wrong.. That could be your view. A german would view him as a great protector!. For his wife, he is a great loving husband too. So its clear, that we as humans cannot judge a man coherently & consistently. In this light, If God has to judge the incararnation or process of permitting the soul to become oneness with God, then for sure, he must have a set of rules/law, which would be the Absolute Law and Absolute Justice.

Btw, morality is not the outcomes of Democracy. Morality has been there in ancient times. The stories of Bagvad Gita or Vedantic rules are all a set of moral codes. 'Killing/cheating/lying' as wrong, has been codified in all ancient religions,where as the tribals who lived without the context of God, continued to live a cannibal life.

Now you may ask, how god delivers his moral law to mankind. Thats why I said, if God is all powerful, he could equally take any form, and can commune with his creations.. Its possible God would have given the laws through Sages/Lord Krishna/Buddha/Moses or possibly even infused it in humansetc etc..

If moral laws are man made, then , God has no role, to judge our karmic/reincarnation. He cannot take a man's own varying law to deliver his absolute justice..



Regards,
KRS

m
 
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happyhindu

Well-known member
During the course of discussion on this thread, please anyone - also try to explain the following two questions from YOUR point of view - NOT quoting scriptures even if there is anything already written about it.

People say the Universe expands - but into what?
People say God is in everything - but from where did God come from?

Dear Sridhar,

After talking to gurus and mediums, this is what i understand:

<<People say the Universe expands - but into what?>>

The soul is enclosed within 'gaseous' or 'amorphous' like stuff (for want of better words) which hindus call ether. The sun too is just hot gas.

Hindus beleived light is conducted in the medium of ether. This is what physics also says today, and we have come closer the understanding of light as ether waves.

Of the panchabhutams, the concept of ether is hindu (the chinese or dao also have the concept of panchabhutam but it is metal for them not ether, the remaining four are same).

The sun too is just hot gas. Ages later, it will cool. But the gases themselves do not cease to exist. They can still concentrate into a ball of condensed heat again.

These gases have no time or boundries. The universe just expands, not specifically into anything, it just expands. This page also has a part on what is the universe expanding into: http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmology_faq.html#UN

Einstein (a brahman and that too a vedic one to me :) ) was able to prove using logic of the existentiality of other things (in his theory of relativity space), deriving at with his various calculations, that ether exists: http://www.tu-harburg.de/rzt/rzt/it/Ether.html

<<People say God is in everything - but from where did God come from?>>

Going back to the idea that hindus beleived light as the medium of ether, it seems that the yogis saw the soul ensconced as a tiny concentrated light enclosed within amorphous gaseous stuff that diffused outwards. Meaning, they saw the soul itself as amorphous gaseous matter and light that concentrated at a point and diffused outwards. (hope am putting this into words sufficiently well since it is taking me effort to get the right words).

So the yogis explained the soul as a fragment from a "source"; and that everything came from a single point of origin. This is rather similar to the concept of big bang (nasadiya suktam ?).

The yogis say that when the soul (gaseous matter) returns to its source it is in an unconditioned state (the body is a part of the conditioned state). And since this soul matter is part of the other gaseous matter of the universe, it too can expand. In that way, they expanded their consciousness. Meaning, they dropped their senses, got to a blank state, had glimpses of their soul light, travelled into it, and found that they are in an astral plane where there was nothing but shapeless gaseous expanse of light, which they called consciousness. They figured out that the darkness occurs during transition states or transformation stages of conditioning or transformation. They merely called this light as God and darkness as a state of conditioning or transformation.

This God came from nowhere. It exists, within each one of us, it exists everwhere. There is nothing without an atom, or light or gaseous matter.

Everything we see is in a conditioned state as a stone or a plant or human. Meaning "creation" is a state of conditioning.

Various people and philosophies describe this in various ways. Some say the source (God) and the sourced (the soul) are the same. Some say the sourced is part of the source but it can never go back to the source, like the planets cannot go back into the sun. But well, they can, but only after a stage of massive transformation (some say its destruction, but its not, its just transformation, of taking on an other form, so shiva (to me) is transformation, but we are in a conditioned state so it appears as destruction).

It also seems to mediums that every soul has an inbuilt evolutionary intelligence to choose its expereinces or its conditioned state. That's a point of freewill. The freewill chooses conditioning of various kinds (even so-called wrong doing) and only after a conditioned state there is a point of understanding of something as "good" or "evil". The soul chooses both since it has to experience both, before it merges back into the source. (this obviously is moved away from making 'judgements' or morality about deciding that something is good or evil, there simply is no room for judgements in this point of freewill).

Now comes the question - what is the source? And why did the source choose to become conditioned as creation?

Currently i call the source with various 'names' like God or Allah (all sounds and syllables that come from a conditioned 'mind'), the closest of which personally to me is Narayana. But this Narayana to me is not without Shiva. The terminology may be sounding hindu, but they are just names given to attributes (of matter and all else). A rose by any other name is not going to be different, so if i call it Allah, its still gonna be the same.

Regards.
 
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happyhindu

Well-known member
Im not sure if Monism/advaitham supports 'Freewill'. Swami Vivekananda says"Therefore we see at once that there cannot be any such thing as free-will; the very words are a contradiction, because will is what we know, and everything that we know is within our universe, and everything within our universe is moulded by conditions of time, space and causality. ... To acquire freedom we have to get beyond the limitations of this universe; it cannot be found here"

Secondly,reincarnation includes animals also (according to scriptures). I'm not sure if Monism/Advaitham says so.You may have to authenticate this statement.

Sapr,

I think KRS ji and i are not talking about different things. Have attempted to explain in my above post to Sridhar on those points mentioned by KRS ji to you in the previous post.

But am not sure if KRS sir is specifically talking about advaitha. I seem to be addressing the soul moved away from the understanding of vedanta or any spoken or understood philosophy.

I must also say that with very much reverence to Sri Adi Shankara, Swami Vivekananda, and my own guru and teachers, somethings i say can tend to be understood as different or opposite of what they say. Actually, it is not different. It is merely the expression that can be understood as different.

Hindus believe in animal spirits too. The soul energy can transform into any conditioned state, into an animal as much as a stone.

 

KRS

Well-known member
sapr333,
Since you said that you wanted me to limit the discussion within the framework of monism/advaitha, I used a phrase 'free will' to denote a concept within that realm.

You said:

"Im not sure if Monism/advaitham supports 'Freewill'. Swami Vivekananda says"Therefore we see at once that there cannot be any such thing as free-will; the very words are a contradiction, because will is what we know, and everything that we know is within our universe, and everything within our universe is moulded by conditions of time, space and causality. ... To acquire freedom we have to get beyond the limitations of this universe; it cannot be found here""
'Freewill' within monism/advaitha is exactly what the Swami says. The 'free will' in this concept is to be detached and not let the karma stick. But if you are not detached from the action, the karma will stick. That is the 'free will' part of it as opposed to what montheism's concept of it, where a man by his action can determine the outcome.

Secondly,reincarnation includes animals also (according to scriptures). I'm not sure if Monism/Advaitham says so.You may have to authenticate this statement.
Re-incarnation is different from the laws governing Karma/Phala. Till the time they attain sentience, the reincarnated souls of the animals are not governed by the Karma theory.

You also said:
In my view, morality is rooted in God. Let say, if 'Sanadhana Dharma' is the base for vedic morality, there must be some one who delivered it to man kind from God. If Dharma morality, is created by man himself, then, then the same man can create another advanced morality and reject Dharma.(Im not sure how good I could articulate my view.. need a long discussion here)
I have already said that the 'absolute' morality stems from 'dharma' (dhr = corresponding to natural inherent quality). But you are confusing this with the 'relative' morality that stems from the concept of society and its governance.

Again, when a snake eats it's own is it adharma? No.

So, 'svadharma' of a human being is the only morality He gives. This has nothing to do with laws based on 'Magna Carta' or anything else in the our world.

Similarly, If God governs the process/logic/rules of reincarnation (as you agreed in earlier post), then Im sure god would have his own set of rules to decide this process. He would have a set of law.
How does one connect to the other? Deciding on how to express the portion of the Karma phala to be spent in one life is different from setting any moral law.

While talking about hitler, you said, According the War Dharma, hitler was wrong.. That could be your view. A german would view him as a great protector!. For his wife, he is a great loving husband too. So its clear, that we as humans cannot judge a man. In this light, If God has to judge the incararnation or process of permitting the soul to become oneness with God, then for sure, he must have a set of rules/law.
Hitler took his own life (I think so). But this world did judge the man and had Nuremburg trials to condemn his associates. Here 'morality' was relative because he was on the losing side. If Hitler had won, then it would have been the exact opposite where the Americans and the English would have faced the firing squad.

So, where did 'God's law' or wish came in here? For every Hitler who was defeated, I can show a Khan, or an Aurangazib who did not face any 'God's law' based on morality. How do you explain this?

Btw, morality is not the outcomes of Democracy. Morality has been there in ancient times. The stories of Bagvad Gita or Vedantic rules are all a set of moral codes. 'Killing/cheating/lying' as wrong, has been codified in all ancient religions,where as the tribals who lived without the context of God, continued to live a cannibal life.
I was not trying to show you that 'morality' sprang out of democracy - I was rather trying to show how 'morality' is relative to times and not 'absolute'.

I don't think 'Cannibalism' is against 'morality'. It is against 'civilization' but definitely not against any 'morality'.

Now you may ask, how god delivers his moral law to mankind. Thats why I said, if God is all powerful, he could equally take any form, and can commune with his creations.. Its possible God would have given the laws through Sages/Lord Krishna/Buddha/Moses or possibly even infused it in humansetc etc..
No, I do not ask this question. Because as a believer of monism/advaitham that we are discusing here, I do not believe that God has any interest in rectifying anyone's adharma. I have told you already that the concept of 'Avathars' trouble me intellectually on this point.

If moral laws are man man, then , God has no role, to judge our karmic/reincarnation. He cannot take a man's own varying law to deliver his absolute justice..
You are again confusing monism and monotheism here. In the re-incarnation concept, it is how one gets one's accumulated karmaphala set to be washed off in the next birth. There is no absolute justice. There is only the justice according to the Karmic principle. But men are responsible for the 'relative' moral laws fashioned by each society as they wish. And by the way, these need to correspond to Dharma, otherwise they will be adharmic also.

Regards,
KRS




 
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