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God does exist

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sarang

Well-known member
Sangomji,

You must thank your stars (jyotisham) or past good karma that has contributed to your birth in this punyabhoomi, and not in surrounding land or middle east. There 'wearing any costume' will neither be possible nor recommended.

Of course, each one of us is free to don any costume and perform any comic which suits our taste while we are here, at the mercy of our past Karmas.
 

Govinda

New member
Dear Shri Govindaji, These vedic sayings seem to me to be based on human thoughts and understanding ...just like the common example of clay pot and the potter, which we find very often in our scriptural discussions about philosophic ideas. Possibly the ancient Man did not bother much about the "egg or the chicken" conundrum, ....

The Chicken and the Egg dilemma:

The example of Clay-pot and the Potter (of Vedic Scriptures) is a much deeper analogy than the 'Egg and the Chicken' conundrum of the West.

1. Former deals with the three causes of the RAW creation (or for that any gross material) like the POTS of variegated forms created from RAW clay. Secondly, it explains the Effect (Pot) as always a modification of the cause (Clay), thirdly, By knowing the nature of Clay, all its modifications(POTS) can be known. So, Potter is the maker in these cases. As, Brahman is the only Such Unique example which contains the original material, instrumental material, executing cause to shape the Universe(matter+jivas), as His own characteristics. Brahman is the Only SAT (being) that contains and executes everything within HIMSELF!!. There is no one single analogy like HIM. Even Potter has clay, water, tools, mold etc. as EXTERNAL Parts, so Potter example can only be a closer analogy (for our understanding) but not the real analogy. This has been clearly explained across various sutras/upanisahds.

2. Latter - Chicken didnt come from RAW elements, but from EGG, which is in itself a compound of RAW elements [what is the source for these elements?!]. That is why, the Egg-Chicken example always had a circular reference. It doesnt deal with the Original "MATERIAL"CAUSE. Then, who was the INSTRUMENTAL CAUSE for making the EGG from the Source materials?? Secondly, Chicken should reflect the Chicken Egg in nature obviously, but who 'EFFICIENTLY' CAUSED the egg to become the Chicken??? [other than the creator!] By knowing the DNA/RNA, you can know the various modifications (species), but Chicken EGG can tell you only the Chicken VikAram(modification).

Our Seers go to the ROOT of the problem! Change your stance for your own better self! VikArama/modification of any species, even us is due to our Karma, but Shaper was the Creator! Our VikAram had better intellect and consicousness, by following the shAstric injuction and understanding the nature of the Shaper/Creator, we are using our free-will to earn His mercy, for a better shape/VikAram for the future/next-life!

Plus, we have the examples of BrahmAndana, Hiranya-garbha, Purusha Yagna, BhUta-YOni in similar lines, but these eggs are a massive compound of all DNA/RNAs, not just the chicken egg.
 
Last edited:

sangom

Well-known member
Sangomji,

You must thank your stars (jyotisham) or past good karma that has contributed to your birth in this punyabhoomi, and not in surrounding land or middle east. There 'wearing any costume' will neither be possible nor recommended.

Shri sarangji,

According to my belief, each one of us is born here in accordance with the Karmas which each of us has accumulated and whose results have to be experienced during this particular birth. We are born accordingly in a country, state, village, family, parents, religion, caste and every conceivable coordinate. Hence, if I were to be born in the surrounding land or in the middle east, I believe that my costume would have been different and there is nothing to thank my stars in that; but may be the accumulated Karma, yes. It is all like which division of a particular class or standard one studies and this I, you etc., disappears as soon as this body becomes a "dead body" and the present costume also disappears, along with that character, once and for all.

It is because of the ignorance being spread by the religions that we humans are unable to think in any different ways.

I also don't think that "this" alone is a "punyabhoomi"; on the contrary, actual state of affairs will lead any impartial observer to say that south-east asia, including India is the "punishment bhoomi" because of the endemic poverty and all other related problems affecting this area —Gunnar Myrdal's The Asian Drama is still not irrelevant to this area. On the contrary, regions like the USA, West Europe etc., were and still are comfort zones in the world, but by importing many gurus, yoga and what not from our side, they seem to be vying for the "punishment bhoomi" status! Only the nordic regions appear less interested in this matter, but who knows - the collective karma of humanity may make the entire globe into one more or less strict reformatory with rigorous punishments !;)
 

sangom

Well-known member
The Chicken and the Egg dilemma:

The example of Clay-pot and the Potter (of Vedic Scriptures) is a much deeper analogy than the 'Egg and the Chicken' conundrum of the West.

1. Former deals with the three causes of the RAW creation (or for that any gross material) like the POTS of variegated forms created from RAW clay. Secondly, it explains the Effect (Pot) as always a modification of the cause (Clay), thirdly, By knowing the nature of Clay, all its modifications(POTS) can be known. So, Potter is the maker in these cases. As, Brahman is the only Such Unique example which contains the original material, instrumental material, executing cause to shape the Universe(matter+jivas), as His own characteristics. Brahman is the Only SAT (being) that contains and executes everything within HIMSELF!!. There is no one single analogy like HIM. Even Potter has clay, water, tools, mold etc. as EXTERNAL Parts, so Potter example can only be a closer analogy (for our understanding) but not the real analogy. This has been clearly explained across various sutras/upanisahds.

2. Latter - Chicken didnt come from RAW elements, but from EGG, which is in itself a compound of RAW elements [what is the source for these elements?!]. That is why, the Egg-Chicken example always had a circular reference. It doesnt deal with the Original "MATERIAL"CAUSE. Then, who was the INSTRUMENTAL CAUSE for making the EGG from the Source materials?? Secondly, Chicken should reflect the Chicken Egg in nature obviously, but who 'EFFICIENTLY' CAUSED the egg to become the Chicken??? [other than the creator!] By knowing the DNA/RNA, you can know the various modifications (species), but Chicken EGG can tell you only the Chicken VikAram(modification).

Our Seers go to the ROOT of the problem! Change your stance for your own better self! VikArama/modification of any species, even us is due to our Karma, but Shaper was the Creator! Our VikAram had better intellect and consicousness, by following the shAstric injuction and understanding the nature of the Shaper/Creator, we are using our free-will to earn His mercy, for a better shape/VikAram for the future/next-life!

Plus, we have the examples of BrahmAndana, Hiranya-garbha, Purusha Yagna, BhUta-YOni in similar lines, but these eggs are a massive compound of all DNA/RNAs, not just the chicken egg.

I do not know whether your writings reflect the Dwaitha philosophy or a mixture of advaita, visishtadvaita and dvaita. It looks very learned and heavy, indeed.

If one goes by strictly advaitic premises, the parabrahman just is; since it is completely nirguna it is axiomatic that that parabrahman is incapable of anything including creation. Yet, most people who expound on advaita have compromised themselves and taking Sankara as having accepted the concept of Iswara, etc., they follow dwaitham in their daily lives.

Hence, it will be difficult to agree to the creator-god concept from a purely and strictly advaitic pov.

When I gave the references to pot-potter and egg-chicken examples, I was only trying to say that in the former it is easy to see a "creator" and the "created", whereas, in the latter case it will be difficult to say which was created first, by the so-called creator-god.

Your words—
Our Seers go to the ROOT of the problem! Change your stance for your own better self! VikArama/modification of any species, even us is due to our Karma, but Shaper was the Creator! Our VikAram had better intellect and consicousness, by following the shAstric injuction and understanding the nature of the Shaper/Creator, we are using our free-will to earn His mercy, for a better shape/VikAram for the future/next-life!

Plus, we have the examples of BrahmAndana, Hiranya-garbha, Purusha Yagna, BhUta-YOni in similar lines, but these eggs are a massive compound of all DNA/RNAs, not just the chicken egg.
sound very impressive but are unconvincing. Your threat "Change your stance for your own better self!" sounds exactly like the old-world method of disciplining kids, at least to me.

Kindly tell me why none of us remembers our past births (at least the immediate past birth)?

BrahmANDa is of course an imaginary egg, and the word "brahma" there is essentially to denote its extremely large size, exactly similar to "brahma" which also signifies size or expansion. Hiranya garbha is actually the creator not an egg; because the creator was believed to have come out of a golden egg, he was called hiranya garbha. In course this applied to other supposed creators like Vishnu and also to the sun. How do you interpret the usual "Dakshina-taking" mantra of the priests which goes as under :—

हिरण्यगर्भ गर्भस्थम् हेमबीजम् विभावसोः ।
अनन्तपुण्य फलदम् अतः शान्तिम् प्रयच्छ मे ॥
(hiraṇyagarbha garbhastham hemabījam vibhāvasoḥ |
anantapuṇya phaladam ataḥ śāntim prayaccha me ||) ?

Your sentiment "we are using our free-will to earn His mercy" sounds identical to the underlying principle of Islam. I am unable to accept a creator god who will create humans just so that they will go on paying to that creator for his mercy. What sort of a god is that when even ordinary human beings no longer expect such scrounging from their children?
 

sarang

Well-known member
I am glad that you are born in this country and not in neighbouring pakistan or iran or bangladesh. Of course it is your prerogative to feel the way you do now.

Shri sarangji,

According to my belief, each one of us is born here in accordance with the Karmas which each of us has accumulated and whose results have to be experienced during this particular birth. We are born accordingly in a country, state, village, family, parents, religion, caste and every conceivable coordinate. Hence, if I were to be born in the surrounding land or in the middle east, I believe that my costume would have been different and there is nothing to thank my stars in that; but may be the accumulated Karma, yes. It is all like which division of a particular class or standard one studies and this I, you etc., disappears as soon as this body becomes a "dead body" and the present costume also disappears, along with that character, once and for all.

It is because of the ignorance being spread by the religions that we humans are unable to think in any different ways.

I also don't think that "this" alone is a "punyabhoomi"; on the contrary, actual state of affairs will lead any impartial observer to say that south-east asia, including India is the "punishment bhoomi" because of the endemic poverty and all other related problems affecting this area —Gunnar Myrdal's The Asian Drama is still not irrelevant to this area. On the contrary, regions like the USA, West Europe etc., were and still are comfort zones in the world, but by importing many gurus, yoga and what not from our side, they seem to be vying for the "punishment bhoomi" status! Only the nordic regions appear less interested in this matter, but who knows - the collective karma of humanity may make the entire globe into one more or less strict reformatory with rigorous punishments !;)
 
V

V.Balasubramani

Guest
Sir, IMHO God is love! God is Great!! Praise the Lord!!!

நமச்சிவாய வாஅழ்க நாதன் தாள் வாழ்க
இமைப்பொழுதும் என் நெஞ்சில் நீங்காதான் தாள் வாழ்க
கோகழி ஆண்ட குருமணி தன் தாள் வாழ்க
ஆகமம் ஆகிநின்று அண்ணிப்பான் தாள் வாழ்க
ஏகன் அநேகன் இறைவன் அடிவாழ்க
 

Raghy

Well-known member
Sir, IMHO God is love! God is Great!! Praise the Lord!!!

நமச்சிவாய வாஅழ்க நாதன் தாள் வாழ்க
இமைப்பொழுதும் என் நெஞ்சில் நீங்காதான் தாள் வாழ்க
கோகழி ஆண்ட குருமணி தன் தாள் வாழ்க
ஆகமம் ஆகிநின்று அண்ணிப்பான் தாள் வாழ்க
ஏகன் அநேகன் இறைவன் அடிவாழ்க

Love this song. Love the next lines too.... 'Eesanadi potri!... Endhai adi potri!...'

If possible, kindly post the full song, please. Thank you.

Cheers!
 

mskmoorthy

Well-known member
Here is the website tiruvAcakam of mANikka vAcakar- part I (in tamil script, unicode format)
Another place is http://www.thevaaram.org/thirumurai_1/onepage.php?thiru=8&Song_idField=8101 or http://www.thevaaram.org/thirumurai_1/songview.php?thiru=8&Song_idField=8101&padhi=001

where Sri Vikrama has contributed in translating into Sanskrit
From that website,
1. சிவபுராணம்

(திருப்பெருந்துறையில் அருளியது
தற்சிறப்புப் பாயிரம்)

நமச்சிவாய வாஅழ்க நாதன் தாள் வாழ்க
இமைப்பொழுதும் என் நெஞ்சில் நீங்காதான் தாள் வாழ்க
கோகழி ஆண்ட குருமணிதன் தாள் வாழ்க
ஆகமம் ஆகிநின்று அண்ணிப்பான் தாள் வாழ்க
ஏகன் அநேகன் இறைவன் அடிவாழ்க 5

வேகம் கெடுத்தாண்ட வேந்தன் அடிவெல்க
பிறப்பறுக்கும் பிஞ்ஞகன்தன் பெய்கழல்கள் வெல்க
புறந்தார்க்குச் சேயோன் தன் பூங்கழல்கள் வெல்க
கரங்குவிவார் உள்மகிழும் கோன்கழல்கள் வெல்க
சிரம்குவிவார் ஓங்குவிக்கும் சீரோன் கழல் வெல்க 10

ஈசன் அடிபோற்றி எந்தை அடிபோற்றி
தேசன் அடிபோற்றி சிவன் சேவடி போற்றி
நேயத்தே நின்ற நிமலன் அடி போற்றி
மாயப் பிறப்பு அறுக்கும் மன்னன் அடி போற்றி
சீரார் பெருந்துறை நம் தேவன் அடி போற்றி 15
ஆராத இன்பம் அருளும் மலை போற்றி

சிவன் அவன் என்சிந்தையுள் நின்ற அதனால்
அவன் அருளாலே அவன் தாள் வணங்கிச்
சிந்தை மகிழச் சிவ புராணம் தன்னை
முந்தை வினைமுழுதும் ஓய உரைப்பன் யான். 20

கண் நுதலான் தன்கருணைக் கண்காட்ட வந்து எய்தி
எண்ணுதற்கு எட்டா எழில் ஆர்கழல் இறைஞ்சி
விண் நிறைந்தும் மண் நிறைந்தும் மிக்காய், விளங்கு ஒளியாய்,
எண் இறந்த எல்லை இலாதானே நின் பெரும்சீர்
பொல்லா வினையேன் புகழுமாறு ஒன்று அறியேன் 25

புல்லாகிப் பூடாய்ப் புழுவாய் மரமாகிப்
பல் விருகமாகிப் பறவையாய்ப் பாம்பாகிக்
கல்லாய் மனிதராய்ப் பேயாய்க் கணங்களாய்
வல் அசுரர் ஆகி முனிவராய்த் தேவராய்ச்
செல்லாஅ நின்ற இத் தாவர சங்கமத்துள் 30

எல்லாப் பிறப்பும் பிறந்து இளைத்தேன், எம்பெருமான்
மெய்யே உன் பொன் அடிகள் கண்டு இன்று வீடு உற்றேன்
உய்ய என் உள்ளத்துள் ஓங்காரமாய் நின்ற
மெய்யா விமலா விடைப்பாகா வேதங்கள்
ஐயா எனவோங்கி ஆழ்ந்து அகன்ற நுண்ணியனே 35

வெய்யாய், தணியாய், இயமானனாம் விமலா
பொய் ஆயின எல்லாம் போய் அகல வந்தருளி
மெய் ஞானம் ஆகி மிளிர் கின்ற மெய்ச் சுடரே
எஞ்ஞானம் இல்லாதேன் இன்பப் பெருமானே
அஞ்ஞானம் தன்னை அகல்விக்கும் நல் அறிவே 40

ஆக்கம் அளவு இறுதி இல்லாய், அனைத்து உலகும்
ஆக்குவாய் காப்பாய் அழிப்பாய் அருள் தருவாய்
போக்குவாய் என்னைப் புகுவிப்பாய் நின் தொழும்பின்
நாற்றத்தின் நேரியாய், சேயாய், நணியானே
மாற்றம் மனம் கழிய நின்ற மறையோனே 45

கறந்த பால் கன்னலொடு நெய்கலந்தாற் போலச்
சிறந்தடியார் சிந்தனையுள் தேன்ஊறி நின்று
பிறந்த பிறப்பு அறுக்கும் எங்கள் பெருமான்
நிறங்கள் ஓர் ஐந்து உடையாய், விண்ணோர்கள் ஏத்த
மறைந்திருந்தாய், எம்பெருமான் வல்வினையேன் தன்னை 50

மறைந்திட மூடிய மாய இருளை
அறம்பாவம் என்னும் அரும் கயிற்றால் கட்டி
புறம்தோல் போர்த்து எங்கும் புழு அழுக்கு மூடி,
மலம் சோரும் ஒன்பது வாயில் குடிலை
மலங்கப் புலன் ஐந்தும் வஞ்சனையைச் செய்ய, 55

விலங்கு மனத்தால், விமலா உனக்கு
கலந்த அன்பாகிக் கசிந்து உள் உருகும்
நலம் தான் இலாத சிறியேற்கு நல்கி
நிலம் தன்மேல் வந்து அருளி நீள்கழல்கள் காட்டி,
நாயிற் கடையாய்க் கிடந்த அடியேற்குத் 60

தாயிற் சிறந்த தயா ஆன தத்துவனே
மாசற்ற சோதி மலர்ந்த மலர்ச்சுடரே
தேசனே தேன் ஆர்அமுதே சிவபுரானே
பாசமாம் பற்று அறுத்துப் பாரிக்கும் ஆரியனே
நேச அருள்புரிந்து நெஞ்சில் வஞ்சம் கெடப் 65

பேராது நின்ற பெருங்கருணைப் போராறே
ஆரா அமுதே அளவிலாப் பெம்மானே
ஓராதார் உள்ளத்து ஒளிக்கும் ஒளியானே
நீராய் உருக்கி என் ஆருயிராய் நின்றானே
இன்பமும் துன்பமும் இல்லானே உள்ளானே 70

அன்பருக்கு அன்பனே யாவையுமாய் இல்லையுமாய்
சோதியனே துன்னிருளே தோன்றாப் பெருமையனே
ஆதியனே அந்தம் நடுவாகி அல்லானே
ஈர்த்து என்னை ஆட்கொண்ட எந்தை பெருமானே
கூர்த்த மெய் ஞானத்தால் கொண்டு உணர்வார் தம்கருத்தில் 75

நோக்கரிய நோக்கே நுணுக்கரிய நுண் உணர்வே
போக்கும் வரவும் புணர்வும் இலாப் புண்ணியனே
காக்கும் என் காவலனே காண்பரிய பேர் ஒளியே
ஆற்றின்ப வெள்ளமே அத்தா மிக்காய் நின்ற
தோற்றச் சுடர் ஒளியாய்ச் சொல்லாத நுண் உணர்வாய் 80

மாற்றமாம் வையகத்தின் வெவ்வேறே வந்து அறிவாம்
தேற்றனே தேற்றத் தெளிவே என் சிந்தனை உள்
ஊற்றான உண்ணார் அமுதே உடையானே
வேற்று விகார விடக்கு உடம்பின் உள்கிடப்ப
ஆற்றேன் எம் ஐயா அரனே ஓ என்று என்று 85

போற்றிப் புகழ்ந்திருந்து பொய்கெட்டு மெய் ஆனார்
மீட்டு இங்கு வந்து வினைப்பிறவி சாராமே
கள்ளப் புலக்குரம்பைக் கட்டு அழிக்க வல்லானே
நள் இருளில் நட்டம் பயின்று ஆடும் நாதனே
தில்லை உள் கூத்தனே தென்பாண்டி நாட்டானே 90

அல்லல் பிறவி அறுப்பானே ஓ என்று
சொல்லற்கு அரியானைச் சொல்லித் திருவடிக்கீழ்
சொல்லிய பாட்டின் பொருள் உணர்ந்து சொல்லுவார்
செல்வர் சிவபுரத்தின் உள்ளார் சிவன் அடிக்கீழ்ப்
பல்லோரும் ஏத்தப் பணிந்து. 95

திருச்சிற்றம்பலம்
 
Last edited:
V

V.Balasubramani

Guest
God does exist.

Sir, There was a Brahmin in Bengal (1774-1833). He was one of the greatest reformer. He did many reforms. He was deeply versed in Indian thoughts and philosophy. He wanted to learn Holy books of most of the religion. He mastered Arabic, Parsian, Sanskrit to study all vedhas and English. He studied the Holy books and made a comparative study of all the religions prevailed all over the world. It was his belief that the philosophy of Vedanta was based on the principles of reason which was the final touching stone of truth in all doctrine. He preached that 'God is one'. He was Raja Ram Mohan Roy.

for more information:Raja Ram Mohan Roy (1774 - 1833 )
 
S

SANDHYAV

Guest
Thiruvasagathirku urugathar oruvasagathirukum urugathar, amazing poems (art) glorifying GOD.
 
Friends,

The existence of GOD is like an axiom. This is what Gandhiji said. It is self proved.

I find a good definition in SWETHASHWATHARA UPANISHAD, which I quote here :-" EKO DEVAH SARVA BHOOTHESHU GOODA, SARVA VYAAPEE SARVA BHOOTHAANDARAATHMA, KARMAADYAKSHA SARVA BHOOTHESHU VASAH SAAKSHEE CHETHO KEVALO NIRGUNASCHA".
This upanishad can be seen in BLACK YAJURVEDA known as KRISHNA YAJURVEDA. The meaning is very simple. There is only one GOD.
HE/SHE is ominipotent, omnipresent, lives in the ANTHARATHMA of every person, omniscient, but he is a witness to all our doings yet has no GUNA. One may call GOD by any name but there is only ONE GOD.You may call Him/HER as KRISHNA, NARAYANA, SHIVA, GANAPATHI,PARVATHY, AMBAL etc.


Regards and Namaskarams,

P.R. RADHAKRISHNAN
 

Raji Ram

Gold Member
Gold Member

Dear Govinda Sir,

Many of our members can not read Tamil fonts. So they might be scrolling down when Tamil scripts appear!

Those who can read Tamil and believe in Lord Shiva can enjoy the poem. I posted a part of the poem which

appeared in a movie. It is the wish of the reader to listen to it or skip it. :)
 

Govinda

New member
Dear Govinda Sir,

Many of our members can not read Tamil fonts. So they might be scrolling down when Tamil scripts appear!

Those who can read Tamil and believe in Lord Shiva can enjoy the poem. I posted a part of the poem which

appeared in a movie. It is the wish of the reader to listen to it or skip it.
smile.png


:)

A part of apeom, or few lines that can be used as a reference to instantiate a point or message is o.k.

Whether read or not , posting wall of poems on Vishnu or Siva's glory will not be beneficial, is my point!
 
Last edited:

mskmoorthy

Well-known member
Post #87 Sri Raghyji posted "If possible, kindly post the full song, please." (you can see that post link here http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/11589-god-does-exist-9.html#post183550 )

In Post #88 I posted the whole song as per request - I have given the URL - But to ease the reader of one more click I posted the song in full.
( Ref: the link http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/11589-god-does-exist-9.html#post183571 )

I apologize if I have violated some (neti)etiquette and sorry for the diversion.
 

Raji Ram

Gold Member
Gold Member
Post #87 Sri Raghyji posted "If possible, kindly post the full song, please." (you can see that post link here http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/11589-god-does-exist-9.html#post183550 )

In Post #88 I posted the whole song as per request - I have given the URL - But to ease the reader of one more click I posted the song in full.
( Ref: the link http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/11589-god-does-exist-9.html#post183571 )

I apologize if I have violated some (neti)etiquette and sorry for the diversion.
Dear Prof. M S K Sir,

There is no such rule in our forum, as far as I know. Almost every thread deviates and goes in

many directions. Since you have given the correct explanation and posted it for the sake of

Raghy Sir, I don't think there is any need for you to apologize! :)
 

Raji Ram

Gold Member
Gold Member
A part of apeom, or few lines that can be used as a reference to instantiate a point or message is o.k.

Whether read or not , posting wall of poems on Vishnu or Siva's glory will not be beneficial, is my point!
Dear Govinda Sir,

IMHO, anyone's point need not be accepted by everyone in our forum.

As long as the post is not abusive or arrogant, it could be posted.

This poem was requested and hence posted and that is it! :cool:
 

zebra16

Well-known member
Dear Prof. M S K Sir,

There is no such rule in our forum, as far as I know. Almost every thread deviates and goes in

many directions. S
ince you have given the correct explanation and posted it for the sake of

Raghy Sir, I don't think there is any need for you to apologize! :)

Although i substantially agree with your point, my point of disagreement is only in respect of the part of the sentence given in italics and underlined.

My view is that like the slokA 'sarvadevaH namaskAraH keSavam pratigacChathi" all threads invariably levitate towards supposed brahmin attrocities on all other jAtis or varNAs etc. right from the dinosaur age.
 
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